Author Topic: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:  (Read 112075 times)

Kasandra

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #500 on: April 22, 2020, 08:46:56 PM »
I see stupid people...

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #501 on: April 22, 2020, 11:38:08 PM »
I see, so yoss it was clear to you real time that the reference was to not having built the infrastructure itself, though it seems  the other 3 that responded took it to mean that the person involved owed their success at business to something other than themselves.  Hardly seems like a clear case of misrepresentation then of what Obama said.

Fair enough, the right has been hammering that he meant business when he referred to "that." I think honest people can disagree what the that is supposed to refer to. Personally in context I find "that" is more likely to refer to the infrastructure and American system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_8C6tG-eWw

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If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges, if you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that, somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

Changing the punctuation changes the meaning there.

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On July 17, 2012, the Obama campaign stated that the statement was taken out of context, and that the phrase referred to "roads and bridges" from the previous sentence.[4][31] As the statement gained traction, the campaign ran new ads in multiple states (Virginia, North Carolina, Florida, Ohio, Iowa, and Nevada) where the President directly countered Romney's claims.[32][33] In the ad Obama says while looking directly at the camera:
Those ads taking my words about small business out of context? They're flat out wrong ... Of course Americans build their own businesses.

— President Barack Obama[32]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_didn%27t_build_that#Obama_campaign

That's what Obama claims he meant as well. You can not believe him, politicians spin all the time. I know my personal bias is to give Obama the benefit of the doubt but I know I probably wouldn't do the same for Trump.

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #502 on: April 23, 2020, 11:04:34 AM »
"China has been working very hard to contain the Coronavirus. The United States greatly appreciates their efforts and transparency. It will all work out well. In particular, on behalf of the American People, I want to thank President Xi!"
Tweet from Donald Trump, January 24, 2020.

"Just had a long and very good conversation by phone with President Xi of China. He is strong, sharp and powerfully focused on leading the counterattack on the Coronavirus. He feels they are doing very well, even building hospitals in a matter of only days."
Tweet from Donald Trump, February 7, 2020.

Seriati

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #503 on: April 23, 2020, 02:51:18 PM »
Fair enough, the right has been hammering that he meant business when he referred to "that." I think honest people can disagree what the that is supposed to refer to. Personally in context I find "that" is more likely to refer to the infrastructure and American system.

Yoss, I do want to thank you, I think you made a good faith effort to directly address the question.  I'm guessing, you would agree it's not as clear cut as it may have seemed at first.  I certainly agree that your interpretation is a reasonable one, just not that it's the only reasonable one. 

But I think this just emphasizes my point.  There's no good faith interpretation of the Fox story or the Trump example I gave.  The left media versions are directly contradicted by the context.

Do you find it telling, at all, that no one has tried to demonstrate with evidence that the left media "version" of those events is in fact a reasonable or really even a plausible interpretation?

Kasandra

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #504 on: April 24, 2020, 07:30:47 AM »
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But I think this just emphasizes my point.  There's no good faith interpretation of the Fox story or the Trump example I gave.  The left media versions are directly contradicted by the context.

Counter evidence always "just emphasizes" your point because you pick apart other's words to find the tasty morsels. But the fact that a misreading of Obama's words happens only among people who are politically (or viscerally) opposed to him doesn't increase the likelihood that he meant what you want it to mean instead of what he meant.  That you stoop to assign irrefutable meaning to the antecedent of the indefinite pronoun** "that" to prove your case only weakens it.  Or do you think I didn't mean that is true?  [Wait, what do you mean by "that"?]

** Your English usage lesson for the day: "An indefinite pronoun does not refer to any specific person, thing or amount. It is vague and "not definite"."  Its meaning is determined by the speaker/writer, not the listener/reader.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #505 on: April 24, 2020, 08:11:09 AM »
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And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute.  And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?
The man is a moron.

Crunch

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #506 on: April 24, 2020, 08:24:51 AM »
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And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute.  And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?
The man is a moron.

Please google “healight”.



DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #507 on: April 24, 2020, 08:48:26 AM »
a) He is a moron because he didn't learn from his last foray into promoting unproven treatments - sure, that was irresponsible.  Doubling down now is just stupid.
b) Look up the words "injection" and "inside" and try to figure out what that has to do with low level light therapy. 

Are you really suggesting that Trump was proposing, in that quote, injecting LEDs into people's bodies?  Because it is clear when he was talking about disinfectants, he was no longer talking about light therapy. At least, it was clear to any number of people and companies, such as Lysol's parent company, who put out a statement that their product was not meant to be injected.  Also, the study to which he referred did mention the use of bleach and isopropyl alcohol as disinfectants, and his wording, though mangled as usual, was at least pretty clear in distinguishing between the use of light and the use of "disinfectant" - especially considering the "one minute" bit, which was clearly referring to the disinfectant products, not light. 

BTW, any comment on the recent studies that show the use of hydroxychloroquine leading to higher mortality in COVID-19 patients in clinical settings?


Crunch

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #508 on: April 24, 2020, 08:57:21 AM »
Dude, stop spreading fake news. Even internet fact checkers are blowing this lie out of the water.

Crunch

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #509 on: April 24, 2020, 08:58:05 AM »
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BTW, any comment on the recent studies that show the use of hydroxychloroquine leading to higher mortality in COVID-19 patients in clinical settings?


Please link the study.

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #510 on: April 24, 2020, 09:10:43 AM »
Curious. Has anyone here, or know any one, that has sat through a full covid19 briefing by the President 

Crunch

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #511 on: April 24, 2020, 09:24:12 AM »
I sat through the first few completely. But daily 2 hour briefings were not something I could sustain so I catch them a couple of times a week now and not for the full briefing.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #512 on: April 24, 2020, 09:31:51 AM »
So, what part is "fake news"?  The part about Lysol's parent company?
Quote
[Lysol Brand owner] Reckitt Benckiser, which also owns the brands Vanish and Cillit Bang, said its products should not be administered "through injection ingestion or any other route".
"Our disinfectant and hygiene products should only be used as intended and in line with usage guidelines. Please read the label and safety information," the company said in a statement.
 

If not that, let's look at Trump's actual words:
Quote
So, supposing we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said that hasn’t been checked, but you’re going to test it… And then I said, supposing you brought the light inside of the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you’re going to test that too.  Sounds interesting.

Right. And then I see the disinfectant.  It knocks it out in a minute - one minute. Something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning.
It's pretty clear that Trump uses the phrase "And then I see the disinfectant" to introduce a separate topic from the light therapy... especially since the paper to which he alludes actually has a section discussing the use of different types of disinfecting agents separate from the section on light effects.

Saying "fake news" doesn't make your point - it just signals that you have turned off your brain already.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #513 on: April 24, 2020, 09:36:42 AM »
Outcomes of hydroxychloroquine usage in United States veterans hospitalized with Covid-19
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CONCLUSIONS: In this study, we found no evidence that use of hydroxychloroquine, either with or without azithromycin, reduced the risk of mechanical ventilation in patients hospitalized with Covid-19. An association of increased overall mortality was identified in patients treated with hydroxychloroquine alone.

Crunch

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #514 on: April 24, 2020, 09:47:09 AM »

Saying "fake news" doesn't make your point - it just signals that you have turned off your brain already.

It's fake news. Everyone knows it.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #515 on: April 24, 2020, 09:54:35 AM »
So, you have no substantive response, not even a clarification of what you meant was "a lie" that was blown out of the water.

C'mon Crunch, have the courage of your convictions.

Crunch

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #516 on: April 24, 2020, 10:02:10 AM »
Outcomes of hydroxychloroquine usage in United States veterans hospitalized with Covid-19
Quote
CONCLUSIONS: In this study, we found no evidence that use of hydroxychloroquine, either with or without azithromycin, reduced the risk of mechanical ventilation in patients hospitalized with Covid-19. An association of increased overall mortality was identified in patients treated with hydroxychloroquine alone.

Right, let's take a look at that rather than the part you quote and want everyone to believe is the totality of the "study".

First off, let's set the baseline. Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin are safe to use. They've been approved by the FDA - hydroxychloroquine in 1955 and azithromycin in 1988. As I've said many times, the use of hydroxychloroquine, zinc, and azithromycin may not turn out to be effective but, when used properly, is a safe treatment that's worth trying.

Now, what's missing from the mix in this "study"? Zinc. They do not say anything about using zinc so I assume it was not used. The treatment being touted is the combination of hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin, and zinc. If they did not use zinc, as it appears they did not, then this "study" is already full of *censored*.

They "study" was comprised of men ages 59-75 with a median over 65. Most, if not all, had comorbidities like congestive heart failure, chronic pulmonary disease, diabetes, liver disease, cancer, and HIV/AIDS. So, bottom line, the "study" selected what are absolutely the most high-risk patients and you and MSNBC are basing your accusations on that.  The "study" even calls out that the results they found would not reflect outcomes in women, younger people, or pediatric use.  Again, total crap.

So it's a "study" that preselected for the worst possible outcomes and then did not treat the patients with the medications believed to be necessary to address the symptoms of COVID-19. In other words, it does nothing but provides people like you a talking point to keep the fear going. It's a disgraceful form of fake news.

Crunch

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #517 on: April 24, 2020, 10:03:25 AM »
So, you have no substantive response, not even a clarification of what you meant was "a lie" that was blown out of the water.

C'mon Crunch, have the courage of your convictions.

You can check it all over the web, many sources for it so I don't need to repeat it here just for you to ignore it. It's about like you telling everyone Trump said to drink fishtank cleaner, that level of fake news.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #518 on: April 24, 2020, 10:09:58 AM »
I just transcribed the video of Trump's words.  You can listen to and read them here: BBC: Disinfectant firm issues warning

So, which part is "fake news"?  His words are there to listen to, Lysol's response is there as well. Instead of avoiding the issue and pointing to the inter webs, just address the evidence that is there for everyone, even you, to see.

Crunch

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #519 on: April 24, 2020, 10:36:22 AM »
I just transcribed the video of Trump's words.  You can listen to and read them here: BBC: Disinfectant firm issues warning

So, which part is "fake news"?  His words are there to listen to, Lysol's response is there as well. Instead of avoiding the issue and pointing to the inter webs, just address the evidence that is there for everyone, even you, to see.

You just transcribed a section of the video, the section you wanted to clip out of context. That's a huge difference as everyone knows and it' one of those things you really should stop doing.

Let's get the full context.

Quote
Bill Bryan, Under Secretary for Science and Technology at DHS, said at the press briefing, “Our most striking observation to date is the powerful effect that solar light appears to have on killing the virus, both surfaces and in the air. We’ve seen a similar effect with both temperature and humidity as well, where increasing the temperature and humidity or both is generally less favorable to the virus.”

Bryan talked about the half-life of the coronavirus on surfaces like door handles and stainless steel surfaces, saying that when they “inject” UV rays into the mix along with high temperatures and increased humidity that the virus dies quickly.

“The virus does not survive as well in droplets of saliva, and that’s important because a lot of testing being done is not necessarily being done, number one, with the COVID-19 virus and number two, in saliva or respiratory fluids,” Bryan continued. “And thirdly, the virus dies the quickest in the presence of direct sunlight under these conditions.”

Bryan continued by noting that DHS also tested if certain types of disinfectant could kill the coronavirus.

“We’ve tested bleach, we’ve tested isopropyl alcohol on the virus, specifically in saliva or in respiratory fluids, and I can tell you that bleach will kill the virus in five minutes,” Bryan said. “Isopropyl alcohol will kill the virus in 30 seconds, and that’s with no manipulation, no rubbing. Just bring it on and leaving it go. You rub it and it goes away even faster.”

Bryan added, “We’re also looking at other disinfectants, specifically looking at the COVID-19 virus in saliva.”

Trump:

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So, I’m going to ask Bill a question that probably some of you are thinking of if you’re totally into that world, which I find to be very interesting. So, supposing when we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said that hasn’t been checked, but you’re going to test it. And then I said supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you’re going to test that too. Sounds interesting. And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning? Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that, so that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me. So, we’ll see, but the whole concept of the light, the way it kills it in one minute. That’s pretty powerful.

So clearly Trump is asking the experts, is there something similar we can do to disinfecting a surface but do it on human beings (healight being an example of that).

But, if you like, please point me to the video where Trump looks into the camera and tells everyone to go get a syringe, fill it with household cleaners, and inject it into themselves. If you can't point to that section of the video, then this is just another lie.

Kasandra

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #520 on: April 24, 2020, 10:44:32 AM »
Quote
It's fake news. Everyone knows it.

Whenever Crunch (or WmLambert or Seriati) say this sort of thing, they're referring to a sliver of people who choose not to participate in any reasonable dialog.  In his world, that's everyone he listens to.  It's not a stretch for me to say that there is no light reaching inside his head, no matter how wide he opens his mouth to spew nonsense.

Crunch

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #521 on: April 24, 2020, 10:47:17 AM »
Let's run it the other way:
Quote
Cristina Cuomo, who is not a medical doctor or licensed health professional of any kind, doubled down on her absurd assertion that taking a bleach bath could in any way help during the coronavirus.

On Thursday, Cuomo, who has taken a number of scientifically unproven but likely innocuous "treatments" for the coronavirus, wrote, "Both days, I added 1/2 cup of Clorox to my bathwater to combat the radiation and metals in my system and oxygenate it."

By the evening, she had stealth edited the section and somehow made it even more scientifically illiterate.

"We want to neutralize heavy metals because they slow-up the electromagnetic frequency of our cells, which is our energy field, and we need a good flow of energy," Cuomo wrote. "Clorox is sodium chloride--which is technically salt. There is no danger in doing this. It is a simple naturopathic treatment that has been used for over 75 years to oxygenate the cells."

(Fact check: Clorox absolutely is not just "technically salt," and medical professionals have advised not to use bleach on skin during the coronavirus as it corrupts the body's natural physical defenses and unnecessarily dries out the skin.)

So, CNN is telling people to bathe in bleach! You know, gotta slow-up the electromagnetic frequency of our cells and a good bleach bath is the way to do it.  CNN is the source, must be true.

Crunch

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #522 on: April 24, 2020, 10:48:34 AM »
Quote
It's fake news. Everyone knows it.

Whenever Crunch (or WmLambert or Seriati) say this sort of thing, they're referring to a sliver of people who choose not to participate in any reasonable dialog.  In his world, that's everyone he listens to.  It's not a stretch for me to say that there is no light reaching inside his head, no matter how wide he opens his mouth to spew nonsense.

When ad hominems and are literally the only thing you offer, and that's the literal truth as I've never seen you do anything else, who's being reasonable and who's not?

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #523 on: April 24, 2020, 11:14:31 AM »
...
Quote
So, I’m going to ask Bill a question that probably some of you are thinking of if you’re totally into that world, which I find to be very interesting. So, supposing when we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said that hasn’t been checked, but you’re going to test it. And then I said supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you’re going to test that too. Sounds interesting. And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning? Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that, so that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me. So, we’ll see, but the whole concept of the light, the way it kills it in one minute. That’s pretty powerful.

So clearly Trump is asking the experts, is there something similar we can do to disinfecting a surface but do it on human beings (healight being an example of that).
...

Trump is asking a question a 6 year old would ask. The time for Trump to ask his speculative, idiotic, could this be a cure questions is in private. Asking leading questions, with statements like " it’d be interesting to check that" is irresponsible. Because checking the effect of disinfectants on the lungs is probably going to be fatal.

Also UV light is pretty worthless once the virus is inside your cells. UV works to decay the exposed virus it isn't going to do much to the virus that has taken up residence inside your cells.

UV can be used in ventilation systems and to decontaminate gear but isn't going to be useful for whatever plausible thing you are going to claim Trump meant.

Kasandra

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #524 on: April 24, 2020, 11:30:47 AM »
Quote
It's fake news. Everyone knows it.

Whenever Crunch (or WmLambert or Seriati) say this sort of thing, they're referring to a sliver of people who choose not to participate in any reasonable dialog.  In his world, that's everyone he listens to.  It's not a stretch for me to say that there is no light reaching inside his head, no matter how wide he opens his mouth to spew nonsense.

When ad hominems and are literally the only thing you offer, and that's the literal truth as I've never seen you do anything else, who's being reasonable and who's not?

Don't be upset, I'm not attacking you.  I'm just saying that next to WmLambert you have the worst case of TWS I've ever encountered.  Everyone knows it.  It's like a brain infection, so it's a disease or a condition, not you.  It's possible it could be cured by injections of light or disinfectant, and you would become normal.  I'm not saying those would work or wouldn't, but what could go wrong with trying?  Or just stick with one of the chloroquine remedies.  The FDA today issued a warning that it can cause death or other serious side effects, but again, what have you got to lose?

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #525 on: April 24, 2020, 12:31:16 PM »
I see, so yoss it was clear to you real time that the reference was to not having built the infrastructure itself, though it seems  the other 3 that responded took it to mean that the person involved owed their success at business to something other than themselves.  Hardly seems like a clear case of misrepresentation then of what Obama said.

Fair enough, the right has been hammering that he meant business when he referred to "that." I think honest people can disagree what the that is supposed to refer to. Personally in context I find "that" is more likely to refer to the infrastructure and American system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_8C6tG-eWw

Quote
If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges, if you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that, somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

Changing the punctuation changes the meaning there.

Quote
On July 17, 2012, the Obama campaign stated that the statement was taken out of context, and that the phrase referred to "roads and bridges" from the previous sentence.[4][31] As the statement gained traction, the campaign ran new ads in multiple states (Virginia, North Carolina, Florida, Ohio, Iowa, and Nevada) where the President directly countered Romney's claims.[32][33] In the ad Obama says while looking directly at the camera:
Those ads taking my words about small business out of context? They're flat out wrong ... Of course Americans build their own businesses.

— President Barack Obama[32]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_didn%27t_build_that#Obama_campaign

That's what Obama claims he meant as well. You can not believe him, politicians spin all the time. I know my personal bias is to give Obama the benefit of the doubt but I know I probably wouldn't do the same for Trump.

There were posts going over the "you didn't build that" comment by Obama back when it happened on here.

IIRC, I was game concede he was talking about infrastructure rather than the business itself. But even in regards to infrastructure, for a lot of major business ventures, they actually did build much of the immediate surrounding infrastructure needed to support their construction. Or in the latest version of businesses being wooed by various communities, they were offered considerable "incentive packages" where the taxpayer did in fact pay for it, but normally wouldn't have.

ScottF

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #526 on: April 24, 2020, 12:35:18 PM »
I liked this breakdown of Trump's latest comments:

"Trump did what he always does: he played a single-person game of telephone, in which somebody gave him information, he processed it, and it came out of his mouth in a completely different (and bizarre) way. That doesn't mean he was recommending actually injecting Clorox, people.

This is half the crazy stuff that exits his face: somebody said something mostly-reasonable, he interpreted in a bumper sticker fashion removed from the substance, and then the media ran with it as though he was making a serious policy suggestion.

And then they wonder why the stuff Trump says in pressers rarely becomes policy. Because it was never going to be policy! Every press conference is this, plus some media person trying to hold him to a literalist version of his bizarre off-the-cuff garbled reinterpretation."

You may despise Trump with the heat of a thousand suns, and think he should never do anyh of this, but it's a pretty accurate representation of the Trump-dishonest media loop.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 12:37:22 PM by ScottF »

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #527 on: April 24, 2020, 12:35:46 PM »
Your problem here, as seems to be your general rule, is you misinterpret something in the most ridiculous way possible, and then try to shoehorn your interpretation into somebody else's mouth verbatim.  It's inherently dishonest - basically, steroid-enhanced-grass-fed cyborg straw men arguments.

Quote
But, if you like, please point me to the video where Trump looks into the camera and tells everyone to go get a syringe, fill it with household cleaners, and inject it into themselves.
Who said he stated that?  What he did do was suggest, him being a really smart guy and all, that it would be good to investigate how injecting disinfectants like bleach and alcohol ("I can tell you that bleach will kill the virus in five minutes,” Bryan said. “Isopropyl alcohol will kill the virus in 30 seconds") into the human body might be used to combat the virus ("and is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning?")

The original point being, as you just inadvertently confirmed, is that Trump was pondering, publicly, that injecting disinfectants might be a good treatment for COVID-19

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #528 on: April 24, 2020, 12:36:16 PM »
Rightleft
Quote
Curious. Has anyone here, or know any one, that has sat through a full covid19 briefing by the President

Chrunch
Quote
I sat through the first few completely. But daily 2 hour briefings were not something I could sustain so I catch them a couple of times a week now and not for the full briefing.

For the last year I've actively avoid watching an Trump speak. For me his way of talking and communicating his thoughts is so horrific that I worry about TDS. By avoiding watching him talk I actually find it easier to focus on the policies the administration is engaged in.  I suspect that many people animosity toward Trump is triggered by the way he talks and rambles.

That said I don't know any other world leader giving 2+ hour briefings everyday most of which appears off the cuff ramblings. As I'm not watching that is just the impression so that could be unfair. I do wonder how many people actually do watch the whole thing other then reporters.

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #529 on: April 24, 2020, 12:36:46 PM »
The "study" was comprised of men ages 59-75 with a median over 65. Most, if not all, had comorbidities like congestive heart failure, chronic pulmonary disease, diabetes, liver disease, cancer, and HIV/AIDS. So, bottom line, the "study" selected what are absolutely the most high-risk patients and you and MSNBC are basing your accusations on that.  The "study" even calls out that the results they found would not reflect outcomes in women, younger people, or pediatric use.  Again, total crap.

Ah you're forgetting something else about that demographic, this is the Veteran's Administration we're talking about, and that age range corresponds to Vietnam War era veterans. So add in Agent Orange exposures, and a list of other "special risk factors" into the mix as well.

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #530 on: April 24, 2020, 12:39:25 PM »
...you have the worst case of TWS I've ever encountered.  Everyone knows it.  It's like a brain infection, so it's a disease or a condition, not you.

That Chinese test that you have referred to so many times was not a negative test, but an incomplete one. It was said to be unsuccessful only because there were too few subjects for valid metrics. The media here grabbed the summary report of the test and ran with it as a valid statement of drug potentiality, when nothing of the sort was ever intended.

As for the TWS insults, it is just a vapid attempt to nullify the provable Trump Derangement Syndrome that so many on the Left have that filters out facts and provable metrics. Stop with the "brain infection" already. The term you need to understand is "Psychological mechanism." These mechanisms are baked-in so to speak, but revolves around education and reinforcement. When that info is disinformational, any mammal will retain it if it is presented when the subject is in a plastic state and then reinforced.

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #531 on: April 24, 2020, 12:44:40 PM »
Quote
The original point being, as you just inadvertently confirmed, is that Trump was pondering, publicly, that injecting disinfectants might be a good treatment for COVID-19

I watched the clip where he was 'spit balling' 'brainstorming' this idea.

He didn't specifically tell people to inject themselves with bleach so that point is moot however the real issue, IMO, is that this type of pondering is dangerous coming from a Presidential platform.  We can get cough up in the argument of what he really said or didn't say, but I see that as a distraction from the real issues which I suspect is the intent

Much of Trumps political power comes from not being able to pin him down on what he actually means when he says something. He is a master.  It's so distracting that we can't see the baby in the bathwater, we forget about the baby all together.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 12:47:25 PM by rightleft22 »

ScottF

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #532 on: April 24, 2020, 12:48:55 PM »
Quote
The original point being, as you just inadvertently confirmed, is that Trump was pondering, publicly, that injecting disinfectants might be a good treatment for COVID-19

I watched the clip where he was 'spit balling' 'brainstorming' this idea.

He didn't specifically tell people to inject themselves with bleach so that point is moot however the real issue, IMO, is that this type of pondering is dangerous coming from a Presidential platform.  We can get cough up in the argument of what he really said or didn't say, but I see that as a distraction from the real issues which I suspect is the intent

Much of Trumps political power comes from not being able to pin him down on what he actually means when he says something. He is a master.  It's so distracting that we can't see the baby in the bathwater, we forget about the baby all together.

And the media latches on to the madness like a terrier on a fatty bone. Instead of them asking probing questions about NY antibody test status, we get...this.

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #533 on: April 24, 2020, 12:59:54 PM »
Quote
The original point being, as you just inadvertently confirmed, is that Trump was pondering, publicly, that injecting disinfectants might be a good treatment for COVID-19

I watched the clip where he was 'spit balling' 'brainstorming' this idea.

He didn't specifically tell people to inject themselves with bleach so that point is moot however the real issue, IMO, is that this type of pondering is dangerous coming from a Presidential platform.  We can get cough up in the argument of what he really said or didn't say, but I see that as a distraction from the real issues which I suspect is the intent

Much of Trumps political power comes from not being able to pin him down on what he actually means when he says something. He is a master.  It's so distracting that we can't see the baby in the bathwater, we forget about the baby all together.

And the media latches on to the madness like a terrier on a fatty bone. Instead of them asking probing questions about NY antibody test status, we get...this.

Moreover; the Trump brainstorming is exactly that. Only the least gracious would deny answering in the way they should. Is there a way to use UV light and disinfectants safely? No, injections like drug fixes are stupid, but how about the Healight that Crunch mentioned? UV light does penetrate the skin, which is the largest organ of the body, and enters the metabolism that way. We introduce light into the body every time we use scopes during operations. Humidity was the other factor mentioned, and that is easily supplied to the lungs, just by breathing humid air. There is literally nothing mentally unfit at the questions Trump posed. Only an "ends justify the means" sort of person refuses to look at the questions and explore answers.

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #534 on: April 24, 2020, 02:06:31 PM »
Quote
And the media latches on to the madness like a terrier on a fatty bone. Instead of them asking probing questions about NY antibody test status, we get...this.

Most definitely they focus on the wrong questions and IMO works to trumps advantage.

There is a valid debate to be had if pondering idea's on remedies should be made by a president in a official briefing. I'd rather he keep to prepared statements of fact. The question I would ask the president is if he thinks such pondering is helpful. After that the people get to decide.

And I would like to hear more about the antibody test status but not from a President.

I personally don't care if people believe if injecting themselves with bleach will help or not. I'm prepared to award Darwin awards.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 02:08:33 PM by rightleft22 »

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #535 on: April 24, 2020, 02:34:59 PM »
If in a business, somebody came into a meeting so unprepared, and started to ask the presenter something equivalent to whether injection of alcohol or chlorine might be helpful... that person wouldn't be long for the company.  While positing that mooting something a child could tell you is a bad idea is some kind of 3-dimensional chess move might be entertaining, the idea that Trump is using his stupidity as strategy really has no basis in reality.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #536 on: April 24, 2020, 02:40:07 PM »
A leader doesn't speculate about things in front of their customers. The ceo of Coca cola wouldn't do that, and that's just soda pop. They don't brainstorm in front of millions of people.

Aris Katsaris

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #537 on: April 24, 2020, 02:46:08 PM »
Seriously why is the bloody president brainstorming at doctors, and publicly so during a press conference? (Same question as to why he'd been tweeting about specific potential medicines, still under testing)

This is like the Independence Day president going himself in a fighter jet to shoot down aliens -- except worse because at least that guy was supposed to have been once a fighter pilot. It's similarly *someone's* job to brainstorm specific medical solutions, but it's not Trump's.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #538 on: April 24, 2020, 03:00:58 PM »
Quote
Seriously why is the bloody president brainstorming at doctors, and publicly
This.

What if you were that doctor, and the president, who fires people for doing their jobs by disagreeing with him all the time, is put on the spot in front of millions of people?  How is this doctor supposed to respond to a possibly valid question, never mind the dumb-f#9k3ry that Trump was spewing? He's an administrator, the CEO of this hugely successful (sic) corporation, and he didn't get there by questioning the bookkeepers what columns they were updating, or telling the electricians which wire should be attached, or the plumber which o-ring to use.  Actually, he probably did get into the bookkeepers face, but that is another story...

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #539 on: April 24, 2020, 03:25:38 PM »
If in a business, somebody came into a meeting so unprepared, and started to ask the presenter something equivalent to whether injection of alcohol or chlorine might be helpful... that person wouldn't be long for the company.  While positing that mooting something a child could tell you is a bad idea is some kind of 3-dimensional chess move might be entertaining, the idea that Trump is using his stupidity as strategy really has no basis in reality.

The question as to if the President specifically suggest people start injecting them self with bleach (whatever) is moot - He didn't specifically say that. 
Arguing about what his comments suggested is moot its all subjective. Bad if you don't like him, don't care if you do like him. The argument on what he says but doesn't say isn't going to change anyone's mind about him.

Debating as if a president should be live pondering during a briefing is valid. I personally don't think so for many reasons. That is a argument that could change what people think.

I agree if the boss were to continue to come to meetings unprepared that company would fail, unless he had really really good people around him to counter. either way not a boss I would want to work for. That's opinion, some people might enjoy following such a leader as long as they keep getting paid. 

Quote
Trump is using his stupidity as strategy really has no basis in reality.
This I very much have to disagree with you.
It is a failure of the left is to think Trump is stupid (primary I think because of the way he communicates) And thinking him stupid most definitely works for him.
Time and Time again the press and the left get distracted on trivialities of his speech allowing Trump to continuously own the narrative.
Maybe he is a political unconscious savant however if you look at his career and read his book this form of communication, distraction and plain tiring out his opponents with his misdirection (almost all speech related), has been intentionally cultivated.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 03:35:07 PM by rightleft22 »

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #540 on: April 24, 2020, 03:39:41 PM »
Quote
The question as to if the President specifically suggest people start injecting them self with bleach (whatever) is moot - He didn't specifically say that. 
No, he didn't.  Why do you keep talking about it as if he had?

What he did do was ask whether injecting bleach or alcohol might be a good idea.

Kasandra

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #541 on: April 24, 2020, 03:52:33 PM »
Quote
As for the TWS insults, it is just a vapid attempt to nullify the provable Trump Derangement Syndrome that so many on the Left have that filters out facts and provable metrics.

You realize what you just did? :).  You used what you claim is provable TDS to deny that anyone can honestly claim that there is such a thing as TWS?  TWS is treatable.  Difficult, but treatable. 

Do. You. Understand. The. Words. That. Came. Out. Of. Your. Mouth????????????????
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 04:05:07 PM by Kasandra »

Kasandra

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #542 on: April 24, 2020, 03:59:54 PM »
Quote
The original point being, as you just inadvertently confirmed, is that Trump was pondering, publicly, that injecting disinfectants might be a good treatment for COVID-19

I watched the clip where he was 'spit balling' 'brainstorming' this idea.

He didn't specifically tell people to inject themselves with bleach so that point is moot however the real issue, IMO, is that this type of pondering is dangerous coming from a Presidential platform.  We can get cough up in the argument of what he really said or didn't say, but I see that as a distraction from the real issues which I suspect is the intent

Much of Trumps political power comes from not being able to pin him down on what he actually means when he says something. He is a master.  It's so distracting that we can't see the baby in the bathwater, we forget about the baby all together.

And the media latches on to the madness like a terrier on a fatty bone. Instead of them asking probing questions about NY antibody test status, we get...this.

You miss the point that Trump's "briefings" are all and only about his ideas, his point of view, his admirers and his base.  Do you really think he has given any thought at all to what NY is actually doing or needs?  I won't bother to go back and dig up quotes where he attacks Cuomo for lying, overstating and otherwise misrepresenting the problems NY is having getting supplies and support from the federal government.  If you care (the "if" is important) you would already know those things or would go find them to satisfy yourself. 

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #543 on: April 24, 2020, 04:12:04 PM »
Quote
The question as to if the President specifically suggest people start injecting them self with bleach (whatever) is moot - He didn't specifically say that
No, he didn't.  Why do you keep talking about it as if he had?

What he did do was ask whether injecting bleach or alcohol might be a good idea.

I think you misread what I wrote and prove my point (or I just suck at communicating myself).
Trump didn't tell people to inject themselves, Trump did ponder if injecting bleach or alcohol could work.  I would very much care if he said the first but don't care to spend time taking about the second unless its a debate on if such pondering should be pondered on a presidential briefing Live. The distraction is the stupid debate and to what did intend to say about bleach and were missing the point by not talking about the real stuff like the antibody test status.

Science is boring better tv reality show drama.

If we don't all start to figure this out and stop spending so much time on arguments that are distracting from the real issues then I don't know how we get through this.

Trump is not going to change how he talk. If you hate it you hate it, if your ok with it your ok with it. Nothing is going to change anyone's mind so lets try laying off of the absurd agreements that have more to do about proving how right we are about interpreting what Trump "really" meant. Their is no need to speculate, infer, read between the lines, or spin it. 



rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #544 on: April 24, 2020, 04:25:06 PM »
Quote
You miss the point that Trump's "briefings" are all and only about his ideas, his point of view, his admirers and his base.  Do you really think he has given any thought at all to what NY is actually doing or needs?  I won't bother to go back and dig up quotes where he attacks Cuomo for lying, overstating and otherwise misrepresenting the problems NY is having getting supplies and support from the federal government.  If you care (the "if" is important) you would already know those things or would go find them to satisfy yourself.


I haven't missed the point with Trumps briefings - is why I don't watch them.

We can't read Trumps mind so any debate on the matter of what he cares about or intends always falls into to realm of speculation and bias (almost always blurred by his horrific communication style) My point was that these arguments or pointless and tend to miss the real issues that lay under them. They don't change anyone mind and only work to Trumps favor.

I personally agree with you that if Trump cares he only cares about himself, his base and winning. I think he is a horrible leader that has surrounding himself with yes men.  (I might have changed my mind if Trump had found a safe way to end the lock down 15 Apr - but he didn't even present a plan - at least not when he first talk about that time line) 
That's opinion, and I doubt very much any facts or arguments I put forth is going to change anyone mind.  So I won't

If someone wants to talk about actually policies and stuff I might be interested, I'm not interested in the diversions that never go anywhere.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 04:29:44 PM by rightleft22 »

Kasandra

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #545 on: April 24, 2020, 04:35:49 PM »
Unfortunately, in this case there isn't much difference between the messenger and the message.  Further, there's not enough daylight between the message he delivers in his daily fundraisers and what he directs his government to do.  Remember, he had to be argued into accepting that the coronavirus wasn't going away in February, argued into extending the lockdown beyond the end of March, argued out of telling protesters to liberate their states against the directives of their Governors, and apparently constantly has to be argued out of spitballing quack remedies that will actually cause far more harm than good.  IMO, that's why we can't just sit back and discuss the dry statistics (which I'll point out I often do, as well....)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 04:45:53 PM by Kasandra »

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #546 on: April 24, 2020, 04:47:06 PM »
Unfortunately, in this case there isn't much difference between the messenger and the message.  Further, there's not enough daylight between the message he delivers in his daily fundraisers and what he directs his government to do.  Remember, he has to be argued into accepting that the coronavirus wasn't going away in February, argued into extending the lockdown beyond the end of March, argued out of telling protesters to liberate their states against the directives of their Governors, and apparently constantly has to be argued out of spitballing quack remedies that will actually cause far more harm than good.  IMO, that's why we can't just sit back and discuss the dry statistics (which I'll point out often do, as well....

I agree we can't just sit back however playing the game where he makes the rules isn't working. If were going to talk about what Trump says we have to quote it exactly and not infer intention or meaning. When ever someone deviates and starts to imply intent etc they lose.

Trump says exactly what he says and it should be address as such. It is possible that someone listening to Trump injects themselves with bleach but that does not mean that is what he said and going back an forth on it is pointless. 

Personally I don't understand why anyone finds it acceptable that his briefings devolve into 'spit balling' ramblings. I have no idea how that qualifies as good Leadership and would reject it out right from any leader regardless of party. But that me

I wonder what would happen if the majority of media outlets stopped covering them... or didn't focus on the stupidest thing he said that day.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 04:50:57 PM by rightleft22 »

Seriati

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #547 on: April 24, 2020, 04:55:04 PM »
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But I think this just emphasizes my point.  There's no good faith interpretation of the Fox story or the Trump example I gave.  The left media versions are directly contradicted by the context.

Counter evidence always "just emphasizes" your point because you pick apart other's words to find the tasty morsels. But the fact that a misreading of Obama's words happens only among people who are politically (or viscerally) opposed to him doesn't increase the likelihood that he meant what you want it to mean instead of what he meant.

What counter evidence?  3 out of 4 that responded appealed to the substantive truth of the idea that the business founder didn't build that business and their own opinion as to that's true.  Seems like if 75% of the defenders of the passage seem to think it says - even if they say it doesn't - it's hardly a misunderstanding of the right.

Even for yoss, who actually addressed the question, the primary evidence was his personal reaction based on hearing the speech and not anything clear in the text.  That's totally legitimate evidence, yet, again when it comes to Trump there's a 100% discount of what those who hear what he says real time understand it to mean.

I mean this latest controversy is beyond stupid.  His words were dumb and his speculation was dumb, but the media interpretation of them?  Beyond a lie.  No one that listened to him and his repeated qualifications took away a message that you should inject bleach into your body, yet that's exact the story the media ran.  We all know that they are 100% hoping beyond hope that someone -say a CNN watcher - goes out and injects bleach into their body so they can run yet another story about how Trump killed someone.

Fact is, if any reporter in that room thought that's what Trump said, they have too poor of a comprehension of English to be a reporter.

I get the focus on the literal - it's a way to feed your delusions - but the intent was clear.  He was speculating about directly attacking the virus. Killing  it mechanically.  That's not the typical way we treat most diseases.  Normally, we try to stimulate the body to fight them off - vaccines trigger our immune systems to fight a disease they don't attack the disease directly.

But this isn't as stupid an idea as you think it is.  What exact do you think radiation treatment does to cancer cells?  It physically destroys them.  It's an extreme procedure with large consequences.  But we use multiple other methods of direct treatments as well, chemotherapy, dialysis, some topical medications, even surgery are all methods of doing so.  Heck we use sunlight or even UV rays to treat some conditions. 

So yes the idea of injecting bleach is functional stupidity, but the idea that using agents that kill the virus rather that provoking your body to do so is not.

Outcomes of hydroxychloroquine usage in United States veterans hospitalized with Covid-19
Quote
CONCLUSIONS: In this study, we found no evidence that use of hydroxychloroquine, either with or without azithromycin, reduced the risk of mechanical ventilation in patients hospitalized with Covid-19. An association of increased overall mortality was identified in patients treated with hydroxychloroquine alone.

This one fascinates me as well.  I'm not expert on this, but the readings I have done indicate that the possible positive impact of hydroxychloroquine would be most effective the earlier the treatment occurs and that starting treatment after substantial physical damage had been done to the lungs is pretty much never going to have a material impact.  Lung damage occurs after massive replication by the virus, and hydroxychloroquine's impact would be on slowing replication.

So if your inflection is on an exponential curve, hydroxychloroquine can pull you out of the exponential part allowing your body to fight off the infection.  However, if you've already been infected to the point that your body is overwhelmed it can't magically heal your lungs and return your strength to help your body fight off the overwhelming amount of virus in your system.  Effectively, your body's resources are being used to stay alive.

That's why zinc is referred to as well, it has a known property on inhibiting viral growth and there may be an interaction between the two where one facilitates the other's entry into cells where the virus would otherwise operate.

if that is the case, then the creation in the US of trials exclusively of the very ill, those dying and those on ventilators will never show this benefit.  Whereas, trials that involved people exposed to the virus and showing only light symptoms would.  However, it's not remotely clear at this point how common the virus really is.  With some of those estimates implying a substantial chunk of the populace has already been infected with the no symptoms version.  If that in turn is true, then hydroxychloroquine, even if it is effective, would probably only be called for in people who have been repeatedly exposed, exposed to severe cases, or are at risk for being first responders.

I am very troubled by the very real possibility that the FDA's institutional unwillingness and inability to adapt, and all the roadblocks they have put on forwarding possible treatments would in a case like this result in missing or severely delaying getting results on something that could be effective.  I thought for example the "whistle blower" that just testified on this was emblematic of this problem, he sounded very martyred as he explained how he prevented trials from being conducted on anyone but the dying.  If that's the case, he may literally end up being responsible for tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths.

Seriati

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #548 on: April 24, 2020, 04:57:54 PM »
Unfortunately, in this case there isn't much difference between the messenger and the message.  Further, there's not enough daylight between the message he delivers in his daily fundraisers and what he directs his government to do.  Remember, he had to be argued into accepting that the coronavirus wasn't going away in February, argued into extending the lockdown beyond the end of March, argued out of telling protesters to liberate their states against the directives of their Governors, and apparently constantly has to be argued out of spitballing quack remedies that will actually cause far more harm than good.  IMO, that's why we can't just sit back and discuss the dry statistics (which I'll point out I often do, as well....)

How would I "remember" your delusions.  Or can you demonstrate any such reality - other than in left media where they set up a strawman about what Trump is going to do, then claim he was talked out of the stupid idea that only ever existed in the left media, when Trump does not in fact do what they said he was going to.

You can't talk about statistics, or even about reality, because it's not what the media is feeding you and you won't reengage the critical thinking.

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #549 on: April 24, 2020, 05:06:54 PM »
Quote
I get the focus on the literal - it's a way to feed your delusions - but the intent was clear.  He was speculating about directly attacking the virus. Killing

Is obviously wasn't clear as many view the intent differently.

In both yours and their cases you had to imply intent precisely because it wasn't clear.
Wouldn't is be nice I Trump actually clarified his pondering with "directly attacking the virus directly" but he doesn't talk that way so we are left with the window to infer intent.

Now if you want to talk about if such rambling and pondering belong in a Briefing by a president and is good leadership. Please make your argument