Author Topic: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:  (Read 100520 times)

Seriati

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #350 on: January 29, 2020, 10:50:22 AM »
Incorrect. The vast majority of people who have worked with trump say he is unethical and a real pain.

Care to cite to the study that established this?  We both know there isn't one, that this is one of those I heard it from a friend's brother's cousin about the real scoop.

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Many have had to sue him to get paid, communities that have one of his golf courses are in constant litigation to stop him from breaking ordinances, and we're not even talking yet about the trump u scam.

There's an entire industry around golf course law, specifically because virtually ALL golf courses are constantly involved in litigation, and particularly those with houses/communities closely surrounding them.  Nothing unusual about that.

Flat out "many had to sue" to get paid is untrue.  I doubt there's even a statistically significant number that have had to do so, and none of them in the ordinary course.  Disputes about whether work was done as a greed are not properly characterized as someone having to sue to get paid.

Trump U seems like a stupid idea, it's not to Trump's credit, though its hardly alone in the world of these kind of seminar based programs (you can find them advertised on any late night program).  In any event, one of the principal claims seems to have been that Trump was not involved, despite his statements in commercials - hardly relevant to your claim about people that worked with him.

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #351 on: January 29, 2020, 11:03:55 AM »
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I doubt there's even a statistically significant number that have had to do so

The number of law suites appears to be 3500 +/- which statistically is in the high for any businesses
Trumps dealings with his contractors and screwing those that had invest in his failed ventures has been well documented - this before he decided to run for political office
He even brags about it in his book. His failures becomes success because he always seem to find away to have it not impact him. Trump demand loyalty but not it seem reciprocate it when things get tough.

Its interesting how Trump is able to rewrite history

Seriati

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #352 on: January 29, 2020, 12:22:05 PM »
Quote
I doubt there's even a statistically significant number that have had to do so

The number of law suites appears to be 3500 +/- which statistically is in the high for any businesses
Trumps dealings with his contractors and screwing those that had invest in his failed ventures has been well documented - this before he decided to run for political office

I have a number of problems with your response.  First, it comes from a USA today article that was published Jan 1, 2016 and specifically includes cases filed against him in the year after he announced his candidacy, which is not "before he decided to run."

Second, it was of all cases "involving" Trump or any of his businesses.  That's grossly non-responsive on two factors, first there's no intimation that they have to do with defaults for work payments in any significant respect, but second - and more importantly - they included in their 3500, 1900 actions filed by Trump or his Companies.  In fact the cases against Trump or one or more of his LITERALLY 500 companies that they found over 3 decades are only 1,450 cases.  By company (a misleading measure) that works out to less than 1 case per decade.

Then they broke the cases down further - but not just the ones filed against him (which makes the break out less useful).  1700 were tied to the casinos (1600 of which were collection cases against gamblers, which we know from the article but not the charts - that means only 300 were unrelated to gambling debts, excluding those filings would cut the total number of actions from 3500 to 1900).  In total, there were 125 contract disputes and 120 employment related cases (without any breakdown of who filed the cases).  The Trump organization currently has over 20,000 employees, and has had how many others over 3 decades? 

At the time, 1300 of the cases had an identifiable result (not clear if this was just those filed against Trump or all of them).  Trump had won 450 of them to 38 losses.  Another 500 had been dismissed (the narrative specifically says 500 of those filed AGAINST Trump, which may imply that these 1300 resolutions are literally related to the 1450 cases filed against him).  175 settlements (not specified who got the settlement).

For comparison they did a similar check on Hillary Clinton from 1993 - 2013 (from first lady through secretary of state - interesting time limits given the open ended search of Trump all the way to 2016), and found she was involved in 900 cases mostly as a defendant (without having 500 companies to her name, but with a third of those filed by federal prisoners).  If you consider timing, that means they found Trump and his 500 companies had about 485 cases filed against them per decade, and Hillary had 450 filed against her per decade.

You can re-read the nuance for yourself.  https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/06/01/donald-trump-lawsuits-legal-battles/84995854/

I find that your accusation of re-writing history is more true about the point you are trying to make than about the claim you are disputing.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 12:27:32 PM by Seriati »

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #353 on: January 29, 2020, 12:57:50 PM »
Care to cite to the study that established this?  We both know there isn't one, that this is one of those I heard it from a friend's brother's cousin about the real scoop.

No study, just dozens of media stories and several books.

https://fortune.com/2016/10/08/donald-trump-taxes-contractors/

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Donald Trump’s Taj Mahal casino in Atlantic City, N.J., nearly flushed Forest Jenkins’ company Triad Building Services down the toilet.

In 1988 and 1989, Jenkins, a contractor, spent months installing the stall walls in the bathrooms of the mega-casino. The job was supposed to pay $231,000. The check for the work, though, never showed up, stretching the finances of Jenkins’ small construction business. Eventually Jenkins, whose business did manage to survive the episode, was paid $70,000, or 30 cents on the dollar in the restructuring that followed. The episode still upsets Jenkin’s daughter, Beth Rosser.

It does appear that I overestimated, however.

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Reuters reviewed more than 50 court cases and liens from contractors related to Trump projects in New York, Atlantic City, Miami and West Palm Beach, and interviewed dozens of people who have done construction jobs or legal work for him. The majority said they were paid in full and happy to work for him but at least a dozen said they had been left out of pocket or had watched as other contractors were short-changed.

It is not business as usual.

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To be sure, wrangling over prices and fees is more common in construction than in other industries. It’s not unusual for contractors to issue “change orders” seeking additional payment on the grounds that their original estimates were too low or did not account for a certain expense, industry experts say.

But the Trump conflicts Reuters analyzed had nothing to do with change orders. They were instances in which he decided the finished product was not worth the originally agreed-upon price.

Donald Gregory, general counsel for the American Subcontractors Association, a Washington-based trade group that represents individual building contractors, said renegotiating fees at the end of a job is not standard practice.

And

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That Trump frequently follows such a practice has long been alleged in the press, with Trump issuing muddled responses—half denial, half admission. But what many Americans may not realize is that the prospect of a businessman systematically reneging on his promises as a negotiating strategy—known as “selling out one’s goodwill”—is a recognized danger of the way our contract law works. Fortunately, it’s one that few business people actually exploit, for several reasons.

The guy who wrote Art of the Deal certainly had plenty of access and has this to say"

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Schwartz presents Trump as a mischievous schemer who used every trick in the book to project the image of success. For instance, he “rounded [up] every bulldozer and dump-truck” he could find for his vacant Boardwalk property to pretend he was busy with construction. He wanted to fool the Holiday Hotel board members into thinking it was “the most active construction site in the history of the world” so that they would invest.

Cheating your investors surely is admirable business practice.

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #354 on: January 29, 2020, 03:20:06 PM »
Their was a documentary done on Trump pre political Trump which I don't have time to search for that looked into his business dealings and relationship his lawyer at the time.
(I remember the documentary because at the time I was doing a course on 'the shadow' where trump was a topic. Again before anyone thought he would run)

We talk of Trump as being a aggressive counter puncher but he is actually a aggressive preemptive puncher. His stated philosophy is to hit first. A favorite method to accuse the opponent of doing the very thing he is doing or looks like he will be accused of doing. Classic shadow projection which he then uses as a excuses for his behavior. I can be "crooked" because my opponent is "crooked".
This was well known long before he became political. It's his style and the result was allot of lawsuits and a lot of pissed off business acquaintances.

It is a philosophy that help get him elected so I don't see why your looking away from it and arguing that it never happened, or if it did  happen wasn't as bad as it seems, or was just business so not bad at all.

Its who the man is and the history your trying to change

« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 03:26:59 PM by rightleft22 »

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #355 on: January 29, 2020, 04:08:09 PM »
Quote from: rightleft22
...We talk of Trump as being a aggressive counter puncher but he is actually a aggressive preemptive puncher. His stated philosophy is to hit first. A favorite method to accuse the opponent of doing the very thing he is doing or looks like he will be accused of doing. Classic shadow projection which he then uses as a excuses for his behavior. I can be "crooked" because my opponent is "crooked".

...Its who the man is and the history your trying to change

You've got it wrong, and I doubt your "Shadow" paper got a good grade. In Construction Law.many subs send change orders to the CM that are unjustified. Unless the sub submitted a request in writing and received authorization beforehand, then no change orders are to be attempted. IOW, Trump sees all of these scams constantly and they may end up in court. Mostly, the subs do some work, often done shoddily when they screwed up work in the first place to need corrective efforts, at all. Just because Trump faces a Construction lawsuit does not mean he did a thing wrong. Trump is sharp, and his Construction contracts spell out the subs' legal rights. I find it unusual for there to many things to go against him in any court.

The conflation of the number of suits go up, as the labor force steps in, when their own company screws them over and doesn't pay them. Yeah, the Sub will blame the CM and claim they weren't the problem, and most workers may believe them and then forever badmouth the innocent CM. I've seen it in Vegas, renovating casinos, and see how it is usually the subs that are the problem. When the CM screws up, it doesn't go to court.

Another aspect is the "Money Bags" approach - where something happens that is usually accidental or unforeseeable, and the company that should be sued for supplying sub-par materials has no money, so all suits are aimed at the owner or CM. Truman said, "The buck stops here," and many people step up to cover underlings who needed more supervision. Since Trump has always used many minority companies and given responsibility to less experienced women bosses, such problems may occur more often, just because he's broken the glass ceiling many times. To my thinking, this mindset is a good thing - not a negative.

BTW, Trump is not "over aggressive" in business. That label comes from those who start the problem, because in his books which you cited incorrectly, he doesn't "hit first" he just doesn't turn the other cheek, but then fights back twice as hard.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 04:12:10 PM by wmLambert »

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #356 on: January 29, 2020, 04:36:57 PM »
He renegs on deals. It's documented. I've cited some of it earlier in this thread. These are not debatable change orders. This was a negotiated deal, and if Trump thinks he has the power to force someone to take a worse deal after the fact, he's all for it. He has no system of ethics that I can determine, it's all about dominance.

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Last month, Golf.com reported that President Trump’s 2018 club championship at the Trump International Golf Club in West Palm Beach, Florida, may not have been totally legitimate. Though a plaque at the club lists the president as the victor, the championship was actually won by a hedge fund manager named Ted Virtue. Trump didn’t even compete in the event, but when he ran into Virtue at the club on a later date, he challenged him to an impromptu nine-hole match for the right to the title. Virtue couldn’t not accept. Trump won. The title was his.

He does it because he can, and that's just when he has ego at stake. That's not "being a good business man", it is being a total dick. The USA today article makes it clear that other real estate developers don't come close to Trump's numbers.

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the number of cases in which Trump is involved is extraordinary. For comparison, USA TODAY analyzed the legal involvement for five top real-estate business executives: Edward DeBartolo, shopping-center developer and former San Francisco 49ers owner; Donald Bren, Irvine Company chairman and owner; Stephen Ross, Time Warner Center developer; Sam Zell, Chicago real-estate magnate; and Larry Silverstein, a New York developer famous for his involvement in the World Trade Center properties.

To maintain an apples-to-apples comparison, only actions that used the developers' names were included. The analysis found Trump has been involved in more legal skirmishes than all five of the others — combined.

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #357 on: January 29, 2020, 05:46:11 PM »
Quote
BTW, Trump is not "over aggressive" in business

I didn't say trump was over aggressive only that he was aggressive
nor did I say his business practices practice of punching first and aggressively sewing was illegal or wrong. they are quite effective
I only said that he does these things and that it is part of his philosophy.  punch first, punch hard.

Personally I would not do business with such a person and many that have, have regretted it.

With the topic of shadow integration and projection.. I don't have enough time
However the case has been made that Trump has done very little shadow integration and so tends to project it onto the 'other'.

His entrance to accept the GOP nomination was classic, he show the world exactly what he was. And then his favorite scorpion and old woman story


« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 05:56:46 PM by rightleft22 »

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #358 on: January 29, 2020, 06:03:07 PM »
Quote from: The Drake
...the number of cases in which Trump is involved is extraordinary. For comparison, USA TODAY analyzed the legal involvement for five top real-estate business executives: Edward DeBartolo, shopping-center developer and former San Francisco 49ers owner; Donald Bren, Irvine Company chairman and owner; Stephen Ross, Time Warner Center developer; Sam Zell, Chicago real-estate magnate; and Larry Silverstein, a New York developer famous for his involvement in the World Trade Center properties.

I think USA Today confused owners with Construction Managers. Silverstein may be involved with WTC - but Tishman was the CM for the new Freedom Center. CMs field the workaday lawsuits, the owners are insulated.

Seriati

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #359 on: January 29, 2020, 06:13:32 PM »
Quote
To maintain an apples-to-apples comparison, only actions that used the developers' names were included. The analysis found Trump has been involved in more legal skirmishes than all five of the others — combined.

I should note that limiting just to actions that used the developer's names does not seem like it's remotely designed to actually make it "apples to apples" when compared to anything that mentions Trump or any of his companies.  Also, unless they have casinos they should have excluded those cases, in fact to compare him to "real estate developers" they should have limited it to just real estate development (which they did not). 

They also should have distinguished based on filed by and filed against.  Whether Trump is more litigious (which he is) doesn't bear on whether he's sued more often.

I'd be curious to hear, which they didn't explain, how many companies each of them have, how many other pies they played in.  We already know they weren't celebrities at the same level.

In any event, I noted that when I read it the article and probably should have addressed it.

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #360 on: January 29, 2020, 07:14:11 PM »
Quote
To maintain an apples-to-apples comparison, only actions that used the developers' names were included. The analysis found Trump has been involved in more legal skirmishes than all five of the others — combined.

Uh, yeah, about that....

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #361 on: February 03, 2020, 03:23:16 PM »
"Congratulations to the Kansas City Chiefs on a great game, and a fantastic comeback, under immense pressure. You represented the Great State of Kansas and, in fact, the entire USA, so very well. Our Country is PROUD OF YOU!"--current President Donald J. Trump

"It’s Missouri you stone cold idiot."--former Senator Claire McCaskill.

ScottF

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #362 on: February 03, 2020, 04:31:02 PM »
The charitable interpretation would be he just rattled out Kansas in the moment, that he probably knew that on reflection but fired, then aimed. That's how I interpreted Obama saying he'd visited 57 states - assumed he meant 47 and misspoke.

Or, he actually is a stone-cold idiot. Which, if true, does not speak well to how thoroughly he's thrashing the opposition.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2020, 04:33:57 PM by ScottF »

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #363 on: February 03, 2020, 06:21:21 PM »
Except that this is written communication - sort of. This is why normal Presidents and most CEOs have a whole communications department to avoid looking like stone cold idiots.

No wonder Trump likes Musk so much. They both just blurt out whatever they feel at the moment without reviewing it.

Fox was ready with a defence.

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After reading aloud Trump’s corrected tweet that said the Chiefs represented “the Great State of Missouri” very well, Doocy acknowledged that Trump had previously shared a post in which he erroneously seemed to believe the team was located in Kansas. The Fox host, meanwhile, already had an excuse ready for the president.

“Earlier, apparently, he had sent out a tweet that said congratulations to the people of Kansas,” Doocy said. “Kansas City is in Kansas, and it is also in Missouri.”

They weren't the only ones. Despite where the football team plays, we get this.

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American Conservative Union chairman Matt Schlapp, a Trump sycophant whose wife works for the White House, chastised the “East Coast establishment” for not knowing about the existence of Kansas City, Kansas.

The President, for once, did not double down on this and deleted the tweet. It does show the unlimited lengths that his supporters will go to in order to defend absolutely everything he does wrong.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #364 on: February 03, 2020, 07:18:27 PM »
Donald J Trump:
Quote
When President Obama said that he has been to "57 States," very little mention in Fake News Media. Can you imagine if I said that...story of the year!
Ummm...

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #365 on: February 03, 2020, 08:12:15 PM »
If Obama had tweeted.

Just finished exhausting trip to all 57 states. Loved in every one of them!

I bet that would have got a Lot of attention.

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #366 on: February 03, 2020, 09:01:49 PM »
Donald J Trump:
Quote
When President Obama said that he has been to "57 States," very little mention in Fake News Media. Can you imagine if I said that...story of the year!
Ummm...

There was a big deal made of it. I remember it, and I don’t listen to right wing news. Obama defused it with a little self deprecating humor and the explanation that there were 57 democratic primaries because the dnc allows the territories to vote.

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #367 on: February 03, 2020, 10:39:06 PM »
Except that this is written communication - sort of. This is why normal Presidents and most CEOs have a whole communications department to avoid looking like stone cold idiots.

No wonder Trump likes Musk so much. They both just blurt out whatever they feel at the moment without reviewing it.

Fox was ready with a defence.

Quote
After reading aloud Trump’s corrected tweet that said the Chiefs represented “the Great State of Missouri” very well, Doocy acknowledged that Trump had previously shared a post in which he erroneously seemed to believe the team was located in Kansas. The Fox host, meanwhile, already had an excuse ready for the president.

“Earlier, apparently, he had sent out a tweet that said congratulations to the people of Kansas,” Doocy said. “Kansas City is in Kansas, and it is also in Missouri.”

They weren't the only ones. Despite where the football team plays, we get this.

Quote
American Conservative Union chairman Matt Schlapp, a Trump sycophant whose wife works for the White House, chastised the “East Coast establishment” for not knowing about the existence of Kansas City, Kansas.

The President, for once, did not double down on this and deleted the tweet. It does show the unlimited lengths that his supporters will go to in order to defend absolutely everything he does wrong.

To be fair, people thinking Kansas City is in Kansas is a VERY COMMON gaffe for people to make. Of course, many Americans also have a hard time identifying Michigan on a map without assistance.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #368 on: February 04, 2020, 01:06:17 PM »
A lot of people can't identify which state is Vermont and which is New Hampshire. But they're not the GD President of the United States.

Crunch

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #369 on: February 04, 2020, 10:37:12 PM »
Where is the list of topics the president is supposed to be an expert in? I’d be interested in seeing that.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #370 on: February 05, 2020, 10:32:54 AM »
Where is the list of topics the president is supposed to be an expert in? I’d be interested in seeing that.

Unreal. He doesn't have to be an expert, he just needs to rely on those who are. Or Google. The first search result is "Kansas city, city in Missouri"

But I'm sure you'd defend Pelosi too if she made the same error.

Crunch

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #371 on: February 05, 2020, 10:39:24 AM »
I have defended against such slips many times for many politicians. When you speak so much, especially off the cuff, it’s easy to say things that are inaccurate or just plain ridiculous. Sooner or later, all of them do it. If it makes you feel good to pretend otherwise, knock yourself out.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #372 on: February 05, 2020, 11:04:06 AM »
It wasn't speaking. I'd possibly issue a pass on that. It was typed. Written. Spell check and everything. I'm surprised MO didn't autocomplete.

One of my favorite gaffes was John Kerry purporting to be a Red Sox fan and being asked who his favorite player was. His response mangled two players names together. He was soundly ridiculed for it, and deservedly so.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #373 on: February 05, 2020, 11:15:13 AM »
Let's also recall that Trump has one of the greatest memories of all time, so he should probably be able to name which state each NFL team plays in. I'd bet a lot of fifth graders could.

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #374 on: February 05, 2020, 11:17:44 AM »
Where is the list of topics the president is supposed to be an expert in? I’d be interested in seeing that.

Oh, please, Crunch.  How could anyone create such a list?

Remember, the President's a genius.  He said so himself.  Not just a genius, a stable genius.  He's the man who plays 4D chess when the Democrats are playing checkers, remember?  This is a man who blows your intellect away, our only hope to Make America Great Again (c).  A man who knows that all scientists and climatologists are dead wrong just by gut instinct.  Who knows economics better than all the economists combined.  He actually corrects NOAA about the possible paths of hurricanes!  You cannot comprehend how much smarter he is than you with your poor average intellect.

When you're that smart, you can't make a list of everything he's an expert in.  He's an expert in everything. 

Including, apparently, geography and NFL teams. :)


Crunch

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #376 on: February 05, 2020, 11:53:32 AM »
It wasn't speaking. I'd possibly issue a pass on that. It was typed. Written. Spell check and everything. I'm surprised MO didn't autocomplete.

One of my favorite gaffes was John Kerry purporting to be a Red Sox fan and being asked who his favorite player was. His response mangled two players names together. He was soundly ridiculed for it, and deservedly so.

It was on Twitter. Typing out something in a ad him communication is not a magical filter.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #377 on: February 05, 2020, 12:11:54 PM »
I use twitter professionally. I review and proofread it prior to posting, I double check facts, and I think about tone. I have never tweeted "covfefe" and I don't have to worry about starting a war or tanking the stock market.

Crunch

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #378 on: February 05, 2020, 12:41:29 PM »
Oh, you use Twitter professionallly. That changes everything. Probably should have led with that one.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #379 on: February 05, 2020, 12:55:48 PM »
Good god. For professional purposes. As opposed to some stoner pouring his deep thoughts straight from addled brain to keyboard.

A president should never engage in ad hoc communication. Never. That's how you wind up with ad hoc policy changes and ad hoc foreign relations.

ScottF

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #380 on: February 05, 2020, 02:19:24 PM »
A president should never engage in ad hoc communication. Never. That's how you wind up with ad hoc policy changes and ad hoc foreign relations.

Disagree. I kind of enjoy seeing that a human exists behind the desk, even if it spouts nonsense and steps on a rake now and then.

Is there a particular policy (foreign relation or otherwise) that has changed ad hoc as a result of Trump's tweets?

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #381 on: February 05, 2020, 02:33:50 PM »
Well, there was this:

Quote
We have defeated ISIS in Syria, my only reason for being there during the Trump Presidency.

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Several lawmakers said Congress received no advance notice of Trump’s announcement, leaving them fuming and scratching their heads.

“I don’t know what they’ve done, but this is chaos,” Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.), a staunch Trump ally and Armed Services Committee member, told reporters, adding that he planned to discuss the matter with Defense Secretary James Mattis.

Transgender DOD policy.

I refer to these as ad-hoc, because often nobody in the administration had any idea these things were coming. I can't say if it was something Trump had been carefully deliberating in his own head for a long time. These are not the only examples.

Pete at Home

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #382 on: February 05, 2020, 04:44:56 PM »
Good god. For professional purposes. As opposed to some stoner pouring his deep thoughts straight from addled brain to keyboard.

A president should never engage in ad hoc communication. Never. That's how you wind up with ad hoc policy changes and ad hoc foreign relations.

Clinton turned an ad hoc inten blow non into an ad hoc war with Serbia and as hoc feud with Putin

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #383 on: February 24, 2020, 06:05:55 PM »
Quote
The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. We are in contact with everyone and all relevant countries. CDC & World Health have been working hard and very smart. Stock Market starting to look very good to me!

Tweet from the President on Monday, Feb. 24--the day the stock market dropped 1031 points, one of the largest drop in points on a single-day, and after dropping 225 points on Friday and 128 points on Thursday.

Crunch

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #384 on: February 25, 2020, 07:55:17 AM »
Ever heard of “buy on the dip”? For smart investors, like Trump, the stock market is presenting a great opportunity right now. There are no guarantees but cornavirus is driving stocks down and when it finally disappears the underlying market strength has a very goid chance of rebounding.

Any investors not blinded by orange man bad recognizes the opportunity.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #385 on: February 25, 2020, 08:32:26 AM »
So on black Thursday, I guess Hoover should have got on the radio and talked about how great the stock market looked.  ::)

Seriati

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #386 on: February 25, 2020, 10:42:12 AM »
No not in 1929, information moved too slow to prevent panic.  But now, yes with the speed of information combating panic is mostly about projecting optimism.  Crunch is mostly right, even tragedies open up doors for new opportunities and the markets are likely to rebound if Coronavirus doesn't live up to the fears, and who knows how much the fear premium is at this point.

Frankly, panic is just about the only thing that can tank the markets these days, with panic triggering more panic.  Trump's words don't fully fit the situation, but he's right that there's no reason the market shouldn't stay strong.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #387 on: February 25, 2020, 11:41:29 AM »
I get the idea that a leader should project optimism, sometimes more than is warranted, whether that's a president, a CEO, or a coach.

But it usually comes with an acknowledgement that things are temporarily bad. Like "yes, we've lost five games in a row, but it's been a tough bunch of opponents lately and we've got a homestand coming up where we expect to turn it around.

Wild optimism has the opposite effect than the one that is intended. A blatant attempt to ignore recent setbacks reduces confidence.

Seriati

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #388 on: February 25, 2020, 12:36:22 PM »
But it usually comes with an acknowledgement that things are temporarily bad. Like "yes, we've lost five games in a row, but it's been a tough bunch of opponents lately and we've got a homestand coming up where we expect to turn it around.

Except that's not a great analogy.  A sports team that's lost 5 in a row usually has done so for a substantive reason.  Hope and optimism only go so far in trying to get  a 16 seed to beat a 1 seed.

The market?  It pretty much is a barometer for the anticipation of the public mood.  The primary mover in any big change up or down is almost completely hype or panic and not fundamentals.   And some of that is rationale, serious players will long term goals, will "panic sell" if they believe that the market is going to panic.  Sometimes they've already shorted the position and knowing that the "panic" makes it easier for them to generate a return.

Optimism is a signal to them that the panic may not occur (based on the psychology of trying to predict he public mood), as well as, calming down people that may have panic sold into those losses.

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Wild optimism has the opposite effect than the one that is intended. A blatant attempt to ignore recent setbacks reduces confidence.

Except what you're saying here is far from reality.  The market fundamentals are incredibly strong, the actual setbacks that come from the economic disruptions to supply chains originating in China are far less than has been priced into the market by panic. 

Can't say it helps or not, but it's probably the only thing that could.

Crunch

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #389 on: February 25, 2020, 01:39:51 PM »
So on black Thursday, I guess Hoover should have got on the radio and talked about how great the stock market looked.  ::)

Was Black Thursday driven largely off a infection that was limited mostly to Asia resulting in supply chain disruptions? If it was, then you may have a point here.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #390 on: February 28, 2020, 12:58:37 PM »
"It's going to disappear. One day it's like a miracle, it will disappear,"

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #391 on: February 28, 2020, 01:08:08 PM »
"It's going to disappear. One day it's like a miracle, it will disappear. And from our shores, you know, it could get worse before it gets better. Could maybe go away. We'll see what happens. Nobody really knows."

Start with a definitive statement and end with "Nobody really knows." He must be the greatest, most amazing, talented, and gifted communicator ever to hold the office of president, nay the greatest speaker of all time.  ::)

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #392 on: February 28, 2020, 08:36:30 PM »
...He must be the greatest, most amazing, talented, and gifted communicator ever to hold the office of president, nay the greatest speaker of all time.

That may be exactly what he is. His speeches resonate to huge crowds, and he plays them like a Maestro, doesn't he? It seems that only those who project their own erroneous preconceptions onto him, think he is a poor communicator. Face it, he is brilliant at distilling phrases and catchwords into impactful ideas. Jeb Bush was destroyed by being called "low energy."

Democrats have owned this position over the years with highly researched clichés and catchphrases that are instantly understood, with any refutations taking fsr too long to be effective. They have focus groups and think tanks who work hard to come up with just the right words to skewer their opponents. Who can forget when they came up with the term, "gravitas" to assign to their candidate? Instantly that word was everywhere in the media and from Democrat talking heads. What happened is also revealing. The polls showed that the people believed their opponent had more gravitas than their candidate, so the term vanished just as immediately. Trump trumps that. The pols hate him for it, but the people appreciate it.

Kasandra

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #393 on: March 01, 2020, 01:23:54 PM »
"It's going to disappear. One day it's like a miracle, it will disappear. And from our shores, you know, it could get worse before it gets better. Could maybe go away. We'll see what happens. Nobody really knows."

So many questions, so many answers.

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Start with a definitive statement and end with "Nobody really knows." He must be the greatest, most amazing, talented, and gifted communicator ever to hold the office of president, nay the greatest speaker of all time.  ::)

As people would say about Mr. Ed, the other stable genius, you should say, "Neigh, the greatest speaker of all time."

Crunch

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #394 on: March 02, 2020, 04:32:58 PM »
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The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. We are in contact with everyone and all relevant countries. CDC & World Health have been working hard and very smart. Stock Market starting to look very good to me!

Tweet from the President on Monday, Feb. 24--the day the stock market dropped 1031 points, one of the largest drop in points on a single-day, and after dropping 225 points on Friday and 128 points on Thursday.

This aged well.

Stock market just shot up 5.1% with its biggest gain since 2009, closing 1.293 points higher. Also, it’s the largest ever gain for the Dow.


Grant

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #395 on: March 02, 2020, 04:52:44 PM »
1/13/12

A STATEMENT FROM DONALD TRUMP, CHAIRMAN AND PRESIDENT OF TRUMP ORGANIZATION

While Barrack Obama is slashing the military, he is also negotiating with our sworn enemy the Taliban--who facilitated 9/11.

ScottF

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #396 on: March 02, 2020, 04:53:34 PM »
Rational minds are prevailing for now. There's going to be a correction, I just don't think it will be quite as emotionally driven or as volatile as last weeks corona tank.

Grant

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #397 on: March 02, 2020, 04:54:20 PM »
2/1/12

A STATEMENT FROM DONALD TRUMP, CHAIRMAN AND PRESIDENT OF TRUMP ORGANIZATION

He, Barrack Obama, wants to release 5 senior Taliban detainees back to the Taliban.  The Taliban out negotiates him!

Crunch

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #398 on: March 02, 2020, 05:03:12 PM »
I bet you’d say the same thing about doing deals with Japan.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #399 on: March 02, 2020, 05:36:33 PM »
Quote
The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. We are in contact with everyone and all relevant countries. CDC & World Health have been working hard and very smart. Stock Market starting to look very good to me!

Tweet from the President on Monday, Feb. 24--the day the stock market dropped 1031 points, one of the largest drop in points on a single-day, and after dropping 225 points on Friday and 128 points on Thursday.

Give me $12, and I'll give you back $5 and you tell me how great that was. In the end, it wouldn't even matter if it bounced all the way back, it was still a stupid thing to say.
This aged well.

Stock market just shot up 5.1% with its biggest gain since 2009, closing 1.293 points higher. Also, it’s the largest ever gain for the Dow.