Author Topic: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:  (Read 123122 times)

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1350 on: September 10, 2020, 10:35:59 PM »
That his complete abdication of US security...
Well, that turned out to be prescient, given that Trump, in the Woodward tapes, spilled the beans to Woodward about a classified weapon system.  And it's not even like that's the first time Trump's divulged classified information on a whim.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1351 on: September 11, 2020, 12:25:06 AM »
Donald,

You should receive my observation that Joe “copied himself” as an oblique acknowledgement of improvement. Even at his prime, Uncle Joe had a problem with non-original thought, what you would call a “stump speech“.


https://youtu.be/fmuAB5MqP0Y

You appear to be supportive of Trump’s China travel restrictions, but cannot bring yourself to say so. In the interest of honest exchange, it strikes me that you can only hold that position, or in the alternative, oppose Trump’s decision on China travel restrictions.

Which is it?

There is a third (embarrassing) alternative that the Biden campaign appears to occupy, to wit; “I don’t know, and I’m not going to say so.”, per TJ Ducklo, Biden press secretary. :


https://youtu.be/twv7ey6_EKg

Possibly you can give a response to my previous observation regarding Joe’s missing “recommendation for attenuating COVID spread through travel restrictions”. If he “doesn’t know“, he should shut his plagiarizing mouth.

Regarding your reference to the AGM-183, yes, Trump has a way of spilling the beans. Humorously, the Chinese seem to have heard him, and I do not think this is necessarily a bad thing. My information is that they are now constructing reinforced coastal bunkers to berth their warships. Do you think this costly endeavor might be related to the fact that the USAF has the ability to send their entire shiny 350 ship navy to the bottom of the South China Sea in under four-minutes? War is about economics, and if his slip was accidental, it was brilliantly accidental.

https://youtu.be/79Gb27jA8hk

My “bold” key is stuck for the benefit of the elderly, and infirm.

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1352 on: September 11, 2020, 10:43:45 AM »
Regarding your reference to the AGM-183, yes, Trump has a way of spilling the beans. Humorously, the Chinese seem to have heard him, and I do not think this is necessarily a bad thing. My information is that they are now constructing reinforced coastal bunkers to berth their warships. Do you think this costly endeavor might be related to the fact that the USAF has the ability to send their entire shiny 350 ship navy to the bottom of the South China Sea in under four-minutes? War is about economics, and if his slip was accidental, it was brilliantly accidental.

Hypersonic attackMissile tech has a long ways to go before it really becomes menacing. So long as they require being placed into a basically ballistic launch profile, their utility is questionable to say the least. Stresses on their airframe when trying to deviate from said ballistic and high speed path of travel just adds to the headaches. (More costly airframes, more weight dedicated to airframe, etc) Which also isn't even getting into the physics of a hypersonic missile operating in thicker atmosphere, more air resistance means more thrust needed to obtain and maintain speed which means either reduced range, or more payload dedicated to fuel rather than explosives, not a great tradeoff. There is some potential of applying some limited stealth profiles to the missiles, but I'd suspect the hypersonic nature of the craft limits the options on that front. (Aerodynamics vs stealth profile is going to be increasingly limited as speed increases, as we again revisit airframe requirements)

Now hypersonic missiles as applied toward defensive systems are another matter, and we've had those for some time. They're been used in ballistic missile defense systems for over a decade now.

A sufficiently robust ballistic missile defense system renders virtually all of the hypersonic (anti-ship) missile systems rather dubious in their utility. Unless someone manages to blind NORAD, they'll detect the launch, calculate a trajectory, alert the area commands who will then know where to look for the incoming missile on their own systems. (Assuming they're not already tracking)

The only thing Hypersonic missiles have going for them is sheer speed, and for the US application for the AGM-183 being air-launched, that speed may increase utility to some degree, but I'm skeptical.

Subsonic missiles, which can terrain follow to avoid RADAR detection, and maneuver with ease(tomahawk's have done so for decades) and not travel in a straight line have far more battlefield utility and will continue to do so far a long time to come IMO. Further, thanks to being sub-sonic, the airframe requirements for a "stealthier missile" is far less onerous in that application. (Sure NORAD should likely be able to detect their launch as well, but as it doesn't have to travel in a straight line, predicting where its going, and thus where it will be coming from, is a very different ballgame.)

"The Hypersonic missile game" being played out on the internation scene between the US, Russia, China, and the other assorted major powers is those country's blowing large wads of cash to show "we can do it too" in order to field a weapons system that is extremely niche in its utility when going up against another advanced enemy. Perhaps the biggest use the United States will find for the AGM-183 and later missiles of comparable capability is using it to train/test their (anti-ballistic) missile defense systems on how to shoot them down.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1353 on: September 11, 2020, 10:57:37 AM »
Deamon,

My understanding is that prototype testing on the B-52 has been completed, and Trump’s reported “leak“ included velocity, and range capabilities. Do you have other information on terminal maneuvering limits?

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1354 on: September 11, 2020, 11:05:44 AM »
China Bad! China Bad! China Bad! Trump Good! Trump Good! Trump Good!

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1355 on: September 11, 2020, 11:08:03 AM »
Regarding your reference to the AGM-183, yes, Trump has a way of spilling the beans. Humorously, the Chinese seem to have heard him, and I do not think this is necessarily a bad thing. My information is that they are now constructing reinforced coastal bunkers to berth their warships. Do you think this costly endeavor might be related to the fact that the USAF has the ability to send their entire shiny 350 ship navy to the bottom of the South China Sea in under four-minutes? War is about economics, and if his slip was accidental, it was brilliantly accidental.

Brilliant? Seriously? He alerted them to capabilities of a weapon that could have sunk their entire navy in 4 minutes and now they are developing counter measures to offset that advantage if a shooting war ever started? How is that briliant?

There are times when tensions get really high where leaking a weapons system may cause the other side to recalculate going to war. Just leaking it for no immediate strategic gain, other than to allow the other side to negate your current advantage seems pointless. But hey, its Trump, so it must be brilliant  ::).

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1356 on: September 11, 2020, 11:12:55 AM »
My understanding is that prototype testing on the B-52 has been completed, and Trump’s reported “leak“ included velocity, and range capabilities. Do you have other information on terminal maneuvering limits?

Just a general high-level overview of the game of paper-rock-scissors match that goes on in designing these things, and you generally want to keep them as simple as possible given they're single use weapon systems. More complex means more points of failure, more cost and possibly more weight at the cost of payload. Of course, your tradeoff is the larger payload is meaningless if your missile cannot hit what it was aimed at.

So there is probably "a fair bit" of terminal guidance capabilities being built into these things.

But you then cycle through the same set of tradeoffs I already covered. If the terminal approach is happening at hypersonic speeds, the amount of "effort" needed to change course is going to be greatly increased, by whatever means they chose to approach it. Aerodynamic forces are going to want to keep it moving in a straight line... Which means you either need vectored thrust(powered descent), or a lifting body strong enough to allow you to "steer" at those kinds of speeds which is further complicated by the rapidly increasing density of the air as you near the terminal end of the approach. (And the larger the missile is--because of the lifting body, the easier it is to both detect, and hit with countermeasures)
« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 11:19:44 AM by TheDeamon »

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1357 on: September 11, 2020, 11:14:00 AM »
China Bad! China Bad! China Bad! Trump Good! Trump Good! Trump Good!

China is bad. Trump can be right about some things.

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1358 on: September 11, 2020, 11:17:18 AM »
Brilliant? Seriously? He alerted them to capabilities of a weapon that could have sunk their entire navy in 4 minutes and now they are developing counter measures to offset that advantage if a shooting war ever started? How is that briliant?

There are times when tensions get really high where leaking a weapons system may cause the other side to recalculate going to war. Just leaking it for no immediate strategic gain, other than to allow the other side to negate your current advantage seems pointless. But hey, its Trump, so it must be brilliant  ::).

Most of their navy would be sunk using weapons that have been in the Military's arsenal in some form or another since Reagan was president(and sometimes earlier). Plenty of other weapons platforms are more than capable of doing the job at considerably lower cost per attack. They just don't get there as fast. (And you're ignoring the matter of the AGM-183's needing to be flown to within range of being launched first, which would likely take the better part of a day in the first place)

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1359 on: September 11, 2020, 11:29:54 AM »
Brilliant? Seriously? He alerted them to capabilities of a weapon that could have sunk their entire navy in 4 minutes and now they are developing counter measures to offset that advantage if a shooting war ever started? How is that briliant?

There are times when tensions get really high where leaking a weapons system may cause the other side to recalculate going to war. Just leaking it for no immediate strategic gain, other than to allow the other side to negate your current advantage seems pointless. But hey, its Trump, so it must be brilliant  ::).

Most of their navy would be sunk using weapons that have been in the Military's arsenal in some form or another since Reagan was president(and sometimes earlier). Plenty of other weapons platforms are more than capable of doing the job at considerably lower cost per attack. They just don't get there as fast. (And you're ignoring the matter of the AGM-183's needing to be flown to within range of being launched first, which would likely take the better part of a day in the first place)

Fair points about its actual capabilities.

For the sake of argument I was just accepting Noel at his word. I'm so tired of Trump supporters jumping through mental gymnastics to describe his obvious blunders and some kind of grand master 3d chess move. If the system was as great as Noel claimed then revealing it without a strategic objective is folly.

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1360 on: September 11, 2020, 12:08:39 PM »
For the sake of argument I was just accepting Noel at his word. I'm so tired of Trump supporters jumping through mental gymnastics to describe his obvious blunders and some kind of grand master 3d chess move. If the system was as great as Noel claimed then revealing it without a strategic objective is folly.

Reality was, that as of 2016, it was predicted that air supremacy over the South China Sea would take just under a month to attain for the United States(+Allies), as lack of (capable) air fields in the region limits the sortie rate. At this point, it likely would take a little over a month as China continues to beef up its area denial capabilities. We'd still be able to "crack the proverbial nut" it would just take awhile.

Without control of the skies, the Navy isn't likely to send any major surface ships into the immediate area(although they'll likely be launching attacks from nearby all the same), and most of the surface attack capabilities would likely be focusing primarily on fixed locations with a limited number of patrol craft going after anything in the water that threatens our aircraft, with a primary focus on disabling their RADAR's more-so than on sinking the ship in question.

Now our submarine fleet is an entirely different matter. They'll likely be moving through a target rich environment with clearance to sink anything they think is Chinese Navy(that it also puts them in range to launch tomahawks is a nice bonus), and as I recall they are able to receive a number of broadcasts without surfacing, they'll even be able to be told where to find hostile ships, although they do have to contend with the many Chinese diesel subs playing defense, which is going to slow things down considerably. A diesel sub on battery power not under active propulsion is exceptionally hard to detect, but their batteries can only last so long.

I'd also expect many of those artificial islands would be cut off from sea-based resupply(subs, aerial attacks), as we'd have a definite interest in capturing those facilities for our own use.  (Remember, lack of capable airfields is a big limiting factor for us) Although I'd suspect those airfields would pretty much be the extent of the ground war the US would willingly engage in, with a possible exception made for Hong Kong, but that's "a mess" to say the least with respect to "a good day" in a war, urban warfare as the aggressor in among multiple skyscrapers and millions of civilians is not something anybody wants to think about for long... But even those airfields are unlikely to be attacked by ground troops for the initial couple of weeks. Airborne divisions attacking are conceivable, maybe even assault(from range) using LCAC's from the Philippines, but I don't see any Amphibious Warfare ships entering the South China Sea until the air war has largely concluded and they don't have to worry about bombers, missile attacks, or Chinese submarines. And if we're unwilling to risk our Amphibious Warfare ships in those waters, we're not sending oilers out to those islands to supply those airfields with jet fuel.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1361 on: September 11, 2020, 12:19:10 PM »
Brilliant? Seriously? He alerted them to capabilities of a weapon that could have sunk their entire navy in 4 minutes and now they are developing counter measures to offset that advantage if a shooting war ever started? How is that briliant?

There are times when tensions get really high where leaking a weapons system may cause the other side to recalculate going to war. Just leaking it for no immediate strategic gain, other than to allow the other side to negate your current advantage seems pointless. But hey, its Trump, so it must be brilliant  ::).


Most of their navy would be sunk using weapons that have been in the Military's arsenal in some form or another since Reagan was president(and sometimes earlier). Plenty of other weapons platforms are more than capable of doing the job at considerably lower cost per attack. They just don't get there as fast. (And you're ignoring the matter of the AGM-183's needing to be flown to within range of being launched first, which would likely take the better part of a day in the first place)

I wonder if he has a weapon system to counter China's 50 ICBMs? It's silly to talk about how easy it is to sink the Navy of a nuclear power.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1362 on: September 11, 2020, 12:26:53 PM »
“For the sake of argument I was just accepting Noel at his word. I'm so tired of Trump supporters jumping through mental gymnastics to describe his obvious blunders and some kind of grand master 3d chess move. If the system was as great as Noel claimed then revealing it without a strategic objective is folly.”

Umm, not really. First, you do not know the capabilities of the AGM-183 beyond what Trump (allegedly) leaked, and if he got it right on a deployable hypersonic system, these would be launched from up to 200 F-15EXs based in Okinawa. The 2,000 mile standoff range is minutes, not hours, from targets in the South China Sea, or deep into continental China. They can also be launched from either stateside based, or prepositioned B-1s in Guam, which is probably what Deamon is referring to. The Pentagon is no longer leaving them permanently stationed in either location to generate first-strike uncertainty.

If my information is correct that the Chinese are already building prohibitively expensive shelters for their surface fleet as a result of this program, then it is an economic “win”. Ultimately, even this defense would fail because we have ordinance, deliverable by the B-2, that could overcome this defense... part of the legacy inventory that Deamon was referring to.

I am not claiming Trump is a 3-D chess master, but he gets a disproportionate amount of things right with regularity.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1363 on: September 11, 2020, 12:30:32 PM »
Drake,

“I wonder if he has a weapon system to counter China's 50 ICBMs? It's silly to talk about how easy it is to sink the Navy of a nuclear power.”

Even the Chinese could be depended upon to correctly weigh the destruction of their navy, against the invasion of Taiwan.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1364 on: September 11, 2020, 12:38:56 PM »
China Bad! China Bad! China Bad! Trump Good! Trump Good! Trump Good!

China is bad. Trump can be right about some things.

Quote
“China seems to be making tremendous progress. Their numbers are way down. … I think our relationship with China is very good. We just did a big trade deal. We’re starting on another trade deal with China — a very big one. And we’ve been working very closely. They’ve been talking to our people, we’ve been talking to their people, having to do with the virus.”

So was Trump wrong about this thing, or is our relationship with China very good?

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1365 on: September 11, 2020, 12:47:32 PM »
China Bad! China Bad! China Bad! Trump Good! Trump Good! Trump Good!

China is bad. Trump can be right about some things.

Quote
“China seems to be making tremendous progress. Their numbers are way down. … I think our relationship with China is very good. We just did a big trade deal. We’re starting on another trade deal with China — a very big one. And we’ve been working very closely. They’ve been talking to our people, we’ve been talking to their people, having to do with the virus.”

So was Trump wrong about this thing, or is our relationship with China very good?

Trump has the unique ability to be right and wrong about the same issue simultaneously. I could respond with 10 quotes about with Trump badmouthing China but it doesn't really matter. Just trying to avoid reflexively opposing everything Trump does. I support the offshore drilling ban he just signed, despite his only reason for doing it was to pander to Florida 2 months before the election. The man is an amoral wanna be strong man. He's a horrible president but occasionally he has a decent policy or two.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1366 on: September 11, 2020, 01:36:53 PM »
I'm perfectly content to support Trump when he does something I agree with, which is rare. I have a full throated support for the First Step Act. He supported Hong Kong. He ordered the operation that killed al-Baghdadi. He appointed Mattis.

It's unsurprising that I have to search to find things I agree with, he's a nationalist and I'm a globalist for starters. In other cases, I disagree with what he's done, but I don't take it to a melodramatic level like many do.

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1367 on: September 11, 2020, 01:48:49 PM »
Most of their navy would be sunk using weapons that have been in the Military's arsenal in some form or another since Reagan was president(and sometimes earlier). Plenty of other weapons platforms are more than capable of doing the job at considerably lower cost per attack. They just don't get there as fast. (And you're ignoring the matter of the AGM-183's needing to be flown to within range of being launched first, which would likely take the better part of a day in the first place)

I wonder if he has a weapon system to counter China's 50 ICBMs? It's silly to talk about how easy it is to sink the Navy of a nuclear power.

I do not see a hypothetical scenario where the United States attacks first, at least for the next decade or so, we'd need a LOT of ballistic missile defense systems. Which are incredibly useful in both their ability to shoot down ICBMs, which are Ballistic Missiles and because of North Korea why we have THAAD in the first place, which can more likely than not also engage against those more conventional hypersonic ballistic missiles China is billing as "Carrier Killers" where oddly enough a system which can kill the "carrier killers" before they reach their target are also able to kill ICBMs. It just becomes a question of how large and deep out reserves are kept in regards to addressing a potential nuclear strike.

It unironically puts China in the position that the more they chest thump about their Carrier Killers and how good their hypersonic missiles are, they provide the United States with all the political cover it needs to develop defenses for said carriers against the conventional threat which just so happens to incidentally also work against the nuclear one.

Meaning China's only option is to then expand their nuclear strike capabilities in order to compensate for said defenses, but as they likely build more "carrier killers" as well, the US can justify expanding their defensive ability to over-match the carrier killers.... Which puts their nuclear deterrent back in the toilet.

It's an interesting circular game China has caught itself up in on that front, but that's a digression. Back on topic, at present, there is no conceivable scenario where the US starts a war with China on its own. The only way war with China occurs is in the scenario that China either attacks a neighbor, or it attacks the United States directly(probably in the form of their "forward deployed" forces in the Asian theater of operations.

If China attacks first, they're the ones that have presumably opted to keep the nukes off the battlefield, and the United States just needs to keep its missiles defenses on hot standby. They also know that even if they launch all 50 nukes, only a few may get through, but they're not going to be able counter the hundreds the United States is likely to send back in response. So it basically come down to how China responds to America's counter-response potentially being far more effective than their generals/politicians expected.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1368 on: September 11, 2020, 03:57:43 PM »
“... China is billing as "Carrier Killers" where oddly enough a system which can kill the "carrier killers" before they reach their target are also able to kill ICBMs. It just becomes a question of how large and deep out reserves are kept in regards to addressing a potential nuclear strike.”

The USN is not afraid of China’s so-called “Carrier Killers” even without a developed regional anti-missile defense system. It lacks the sophistication to complete a targeting/tracking kill-chain. What worries our navy is the same offensive system that worries the Chinese; heavy-bomber borne (~1,000 mile range) anti-ship missiles.

Further, there is pretty good evidence that the Chinese have less confidence in their recently developed “5th” generation fighters, which are easily visible to radar, than originally claimed. In short, the Chinese military has no illusions regarding an equivalence with existing American military capacity, and the trajectory of that disparity gets worse, not better, with time, because of Chairman Xi’s general belligerence on the world stage.


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12355007

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1369 on: September 11, 2020, 08:08:23 PM »
Posters should be careful trying to fixate on who "leaks" info to the enemy. In the world of international espionage, we have known infiltrated agents that don't know they are outed. ...And we have agents in the other folks' spy ranks. It's been that way for years. One of our greatest intel sources was on the Russian politburo. We leak stuff that make other info more useful. Yes, in this guise, disinformation is done with precision and on purpose, to keep other stuff secret that is more important.

Don't you remember Reagan's Star Wars initiatives? it primarily consisted of letting the USSR know that our entire military was protected by stealth technology that they could not equal. We knew they made the decision to use non-EMP tube technology that could not be upgraded. This means even our tanks in the field would disappear from their radar, and their's couldn't. The cost of trying to equal our technology could only bankrupt their system. This is one of the main reasons, the Russian military lost preeminence to their other sectors.

Please don't assume you know the intricacies of intel.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1370 on: September 12, 2020, 04:10:22 AM »
In a correction to earlier speculation, I referenced Chinese naval “bunkers“ as potentially responsive to Trump’s announcement of AGM-183 specifications. I is now clear to me that the construction located on the coast of Hainan Island is specifically designed primarily to conceal, not protect, the movements of their intercontinental ballistic missile submarine fleet.

Additionally, the structure is complete, enormous, and in use. Therefore it could not possibly be connected to anything Trump said during his presidency.

Having said that; speed is not the only advantage of hyper-sonic missiles possessing terminal maneuverability. These cannot be defended against with current technology, nor do they need a “payload” to destroy a target. At mach 17, kinetic force alone is adequate to sink a ship. Trump also mentioned that the accuracy is measured in inches, not feet. I do not know if that is credible, but if it is, the Chinese have a real, and unsolvable problem.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 04:22:29 AM by noel c. »

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1371 on: September 12, 2020, 01:51:14 PM »
... I do not know if that is credible, but if it is, the Chinese have a real, and unsolvable problem.

The Chinese are able to man a military three times the size of ours - but with that comes the logistics problems. The military is supposed to get the cream of the crop, but when the entire population is starving, the military has problems, too. Both Russia and China have been playing catchup - but I don't think the technology fiasco that happened when Clinton was freely handing over our tech continued after Bush 43. I believe we still have an insurmountable tech lead, which is expanding under Trump, but the details are not open to debate. What our enemies want us to know is itself an issue, but whether we take it all at face value is another.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1372 on: September 12, 2020, 02:29:51 PM »
I chuckle at the Trump Aplogist who would foam at the mouth and fall over backwards about a marginal email infraction by Hillary. Tell me, for once, how you would react if THAT EXACT SAME SENTENCE were in Hillary's server.

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1373 on: September 12, 2020, 02:47:20 PM »
I chuckle at the Trump Aplogist who would foam at the mouth and fall over backwards about a marginal email infraction by Hillary. Tell me, for once, how you would react if THAT EXACT SAME SENTENCE were in Hillary's server.

There was no "marginal email infraction" by Hillary. Hillary committed felony violations and was only protected from indictment because her entire staff was granted immunity without even being interrogated. The exact wording of the applicable legal code specifically says intention is irrelevant. What she did was a felony violation. Contents of the emails was not an issue. If you don't agree with this please explain how you would get off if you destroyed subpoenaed emails, and destroyed the hard drives that held them (with hammers and acid-wash), with full knowledge of their importance. There is a doctrine in law that permits the prosecution to assume guilt when such actions occur.

There has never been an issue that Hillary did not commit felony violations. The only issue was that there was no one to interrogate after immunity was handed out.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1374 on: September 12, 2020, 03:53:57 PM »
I chuckle at the Trump Aplogist who would foam at the mouth and fall over backwards about a marginal email infraction by Hillary. Tell me, for once, how you would react if THAT EXACT SAME SENTENCE were in Hillary's server.

There was no "marginal email infraction" by Hillary. Hillary committed felony violations and was only protected from indictment because her entire staff was granted immunity without even being interrogated. The exact wording of the applicable legal code specifically says intention is irrelevant. What she did was a felony violation. Contents of the emails was not an issue. If you don't agree with this please explain how you would get off if you destroyed subpoenaed emails, and destroyed the hard drives that held them (with hammers and acid-wash), with full knowledge of their importance. There is a doctrine in law that permits the prosecution to assume guilt when such actions occur.

There has never been an issue that Hillary did not commit felony violations. The only issue was that there was no one to interrogate after immunity was handed out.

She was wrong. Part of the reason I could not vote for her. But please explain any lasting harm she did the nation, compared to exposing several military capabilities like your boy Trump? I think Snowden is in exile for exactly what Trump has done?

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1375 on: September 12, 2020, 04:42:14 PM »
Drake,

“She was wrong. Part of the reason I could not vote for her. But please explain any lasting harm she did the nation, compared to exposing several military capabilities like your boy Trump? I think Snowden is in exile for exactly what Trump has done?”

I was not a Trump fan at any point during the 2016 election. In response to your question; the President is at liberty to declassify whatever he decides to. That established, please go into some detail elaborating upon “the lasting harm” that Trump’s revelations have caused the nation.

More broadly, Bill and Hillary‘s political turds were intended primarily for self-serving ends, be it sex, power, or financial remuneration. The specific damage caused, to include, but in no way fully encompass; giving China the technical knowledge to transition a nuclear warhead from low orbit to a guided atmospheric ballistic trajectory. Commission a fraudulent hit “dossier”, subsequently fed to liberal news outlets, for the purpose of subverting a free, and democratic, election via involvement of foreign agents. Leverage State Department access against Clinton Foundation “contributions”... and that is just my initial reaction.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 04:44:32 PM by noel c. »

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1376 on: September 12, 2020, 05:00:51 PM »
I applaud you for not going quite full QAnon. I'll leave it at that. Because it is far to broad to encompass everything all the Trumps and all the Clintons have ever done. I was asking very pointedly and specifically about revealing classified information. What was it again that Hillary exposed in those emails, other than sensitive and embarassing information? And because any president CAN reveal any and all state secrets legally, does not mean it would be a good idea. Any president CAN draw the location of every ship in the pacific fleet on a map. But we'd all, I think, call for that hypothetical President to resign immediately.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1377 on: September 12, 2020, 05:15:28 PM »
Drake,

The classified material captured in Hilllary’s email trove was not publicized because it was, well, “classified”, and she had no authority to remove, retain, or distribute it, subject to criminal penalties.

I agree with you that because a president can declassify whatever he chooses to, it is not a justification for doing so. A specific example would be Bill’s transfer of ICBM technology to the CCP. I pointedly asked you; what lasting harm has Trump’s disclosures caused the nation?

As an aside; I think that both Snowden, and Assange, should be fully protected from federal prosecution under a presidential pardon. The only harm caused by their actions was to the personal reputations of dishonest federal officials, to wit; Susan Rice, James Clapper, John Brennan, James Comey, and their boss.

The American people were beneficiaries of their corruption exposing whistle blowing.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1378 on: September 12, 2020, 06:30:44 PM »
I'll go with you on Snowden, Assange is okay also, and I'd add Manning as well. Anyone who exposes our government doing something illegal or immoral should be getting a pardon, by past present or future presidents. Same goes for White House "leakers" past, present and future - as long as it isn't truly sensitive or classified material. No more NDAs.

I'm against us arming or transferring military technology to ANY other nation. Sandinistas, Mujahideen, Syrians, Saudis, Turks, all of it. It makes the world more dangerous.

Its interesting that in all the reputations you call tarnished by Snowden, you didn't include GWB, who actually gave the order to put surveillance on a massive scale in place, as enabled by the overwhelmingly bipartisan "Patriot Act" renewed with full throated support year after year, regardless of administration or House control.

As for Clinton transferring "ICBM" technology, aka any kind of rocketry for military or civilian use, Let's read what the conservative Heritage Foundation has to say.

Quote
A current controversy in Washington, D.C., surrounds the possible leakage of U.S. missile technology to the People's Republic of China through the commercial use of Chinese satellite launchers. American companies are using Chinese space launch services to launch U.S. satellites with increasing frequency because they are less expensive than their counterparts in the United States. Yet, in at least one instance, U.S. technology that China's military could use to advance its military missile program may have been transferred through the commercial launch process. Acquiring such dual-use technology could allow China to build missiles capable of targeting the United States and its allies. The controversy surrounding this incident strongly suggests that the Clinton Administration's desire to promote commercial space cooperation with China has inappropriately outweighed its desire to resolve strategic security concerns with China. This imbalance in priorities may have caused Clinton Administration officials to minimize the likelihood that U.S. missile technology and know-how was transferred through commercial space cooperation.


So of course this is laughable, because they could get that same technology from Russia, France, India, Japan, and S Korea. And they would have - so why shouldn't an American company get the cash?

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1379 on: September 12, 2020, 06:55:58 PM »
Drake,

“I'll go with you on Snowden, Assange is okay also, and I'd add Manning as well. Anyone who exposes our government doing something illegal or immoral should be getting a pardon, by past present or future presidents. Same goes for White House "leakers" past, present and future - as long as it isn't truly sensitive or classified material. No more NDAs.”

 Totally agree.

“I'm against us arming or transferring military technology to ANY other nation. Sandinistas, Mujahideen, Syrians, Saudis, Turks, all of it. It makes the world more dangerous.”

I agree with your entire list, but would make selective exceptions to include long-standing, reliable, allies. My measure of “reliability” would be most easily characterized as those governments that value democratic standards, including the Commonwealth nations, and outliers like Israel and India.

“Its interesting that in all the reputations you call tarnished by Snowden, you didn't include GWB, who actually gave the order to put surveillance on a massive scale in place, as enabled by the overwhelmingly bipartisan "Patriot Act" renewed with full throated support year after year, regardless of administration or House control.“

We were in lockdown mode when GWB pushed this monstrosity through, but the Patriot Act is far past it’s cost/benefit value. If you can give me a citation demonstrating deceit on the part of GWB, I would be happy to include him on my list.

As for Clinton transferring "ICBM" technology, aka any kind of rocketry for military or civilian use, Let's read what the conservative Heritage Foundation has to say... so of course this is laughable.“

I agree with your conclusion. Drake, are we on the verge of accord?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 07:03:01 PM by noel c. »

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1380 on: September 12, 2020, 07:01:26 PM »
... Perhaps I can spoil our apparent unity by pressing the issue of Trump’s technology disclosures. What lasting harm are you seeing to national interests?

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1381 on: September 12, 2020, 07:34:32 PM »
I should also clarify that the “ICBM” technology transferred through Loral under authorization of Bill Clinton is not “... any kind of rocketry...”. It is very specific to the particular kind of guided missile systems having intercontinental nuclear capability.


TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1382 on: September 12, 2020, 08:18:40 PM »
I should also clarify that the “ICBM” technology transferred through Loral under authorization of Bill Clinton is not “... any kind of rocketry...”. It is very specific to the particular kind of guided missile systems having intercontinental nuclear capability.

Rocketry was a lazy term, and I thought because it was obviously imprecise, would be treated as a wildcard. I couldn't find any intersection of loral, guided missile, and China.

I did find Loral fined for transferring technology they should not have, and I found Clinton approving some things, like allowing China to launch one of our satellites, according to the sparse overview of the Cox report on Wikipedia. Happy to learn more about Clinton approving the transfer of missile technology as opposed to companies doing it illegally and then being prosecuted by the Clinton DOJ.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1383 on: September 12, 2020, 08:39:03 PM »
Quote
Now, when I mentioned the war on whistleblowers, this is an ongoing and continuing thing. The reason pardon is even being considered, even being debated, the fact that comments from the attorney general are even hitting the news is because everyone who’s followed these cases know being charged under the Espionage Act as a whistleblower means no fair trial is permitted. And there are people in the United States today serving time in prison for doing the right thing.”

That from Snowden, quoted on Breitbart. People who expose the government acting beyond its mandate, doing horrific things around the world, in any era under any administration should be pardoned and statues built to their courage. It is the very essence of doing what is moral and patriotic, even if it is illegal.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1384 on: September 12, 2020, 09:13:19 PM »
Drake,

“Rocketry was a lazy term, and I thought because it was obviously imprecise, would be treated as a wildcard. I couldn't find any intersection of loral, guided missile, and China.”

I treated the terminology precisely, because the difference as it applies to your suggested export restriction encompasses everything from Estes model rocketry, to a Trident SLBM, the latter of which we sell in significant numbers to Britain.

”I did find Loral fined for transferring technology they should not have, and I found Clinton approving some things, like allowing China to launch one of our satellites, according to the sparse overview of the Cox report on Wikipedia. Happy to learn more about Clinton approving the transfer of missile technology as opposed to companies doing it illegally and then being prosecuted by the Clinton DOJ.”

You found a reference regarding Loral‘s transfer of payload orbital insertion technology, under a Commerce Department license granted to Loral in 1996, for application to the Chinese “Long March 3”, a development critical to development of the DF-42, which the PRC uses for intercontinental nuclear payloads.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_March_3

This was done following the Clinton Administration’s removal of export authority from the State Department, which scrutinizes national security implications on such sales, in 1996. Three years after the Loral incident, authority was returned to the State Department. There has not been a U.S. satellite launch on a Chinese booster since 2001 over continuing security concerns. Clinton left office in 2001. Loral was charged a civil penalty of $20,000,000. Under the loose licensing environment, they could not be held criminally liable.

https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/98-485.html

So, back to my question; in what way, specifically, has Trump compromised our national interest through his disclosures both publicly, and to Woodward?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 09:26:59 PM by noel c. »

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1385 on: September 12, 2020, 09:19:03 PM »
He's given up our satellite capability publicly, by tweeting out classified imagery? And knowing that precise capability means enemies will now take firmer countermeasures, diminishing the capability of our surveillance. Google "trump satellite image tweet" and you can read hundreds of articles about it, but I'm sure you've read at least one before. I didn't respond because it's not worth getting your stock excuse about why it doesn't matter.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1386 on: September 12, 2020, 09:58:06 PM »
Drake,

This whole discussion was prompted by the Woodward report, and one bait-and-switch later our optical satellite imagery resolution is what you are going crazy about?

Who on the planet doesn’t know that if you don’t want America to see something, then don’t leave it outside? Twenty centimeter resolution is very good, but not particularly earth shattering. Why do you think China hollowed out an island to park eight 11,000 ton boomers in? Our intelligence services knew something was up from the first shovel full of dirt on that project, and the Chinese knew that we knew.

If Trump wanted to put the fear of God into the Iranians, that is his prerogative as Commander in Chief. He used our capabilities, appropriately (although somewhat tauntingly), as an instrument of foreign policy just as JFKs 1962 UN display of Russian missile sites in Cuba. Do you object to that?

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1387 on: September 12, 2020, 10:13:30 PM »
I'll just pocket that spirited defense for when President Biden does something similar and you go nuts about it. Like I said, wasn't worth citing the example you were clamoring for, because no matter what Trump reveals that damages the ability of our intelligence community, it's just part of his master plan.

Quote
Nuclear expert Joshua Pollack told CNBC, “This will have global repercussions,” giving the US’ adversaries valuable insight into the capabilities of its intelligence gathering technology, and called Trump’s decision to tweet the photo “so reckless.”

Calm your mind, substitute Obama in the above quote and ask yourself if you would truly react the same way.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1388 on: September 12, 2020, 11:31:09 PM »
Drake,

Nuclear expert Joshua Pollack told CNBC, “This will have global repercussions,” giving the US’ adversaries valuable insight into the capabilities of its intelligence gathering technology, and called Trump’s decision to tweet the photo “so reckless.”

Per Mr. Pollack: https://www.nonproliferation.org/how-trump-used-classified-intel-to-troll-iran/

The United States of America was not involved in the catastrophic accident during final launch preparations for the Safir SLV Launch at Semnan Launch Site One in Iran. I wish Iran best wishes and good luck in determining what happened at Site One. pic.twitter.com/z0iDj2L0Y3
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) August 30, 2019
Donald Trump’s taunt hints at sabotage, raising the possibility that the United States or another nation might have just undertaken a stealthy “left of launch” operation against a space program it considers indistinguishable from ballistic missile development. That’s childish at best, an indiscretion at worst.

More surprising, and far more consequential, is the accompanying photograph. Its resolution is well beyond that of any commercially available image, maybe just a few centimeters per pixel, revealing an extraordinary level of detail. Its exceptional quality and informative annotations (“damaged propellant burner trailer”) strongly suggest that the President of the United States has just tweeted out a sensitive imagery intelligence (IMINT) product.“


So, Mr. Pollack sees a distinction between an Iranian “space program”, and “ballistic missile development”, telling.

For context; The best commercial satellite, WorldView-2, yields a 46cm resolution vs. Trump photo’s ~20 cm resolution. Would you expect a military satellite to be better? More relevant, would a potential adversary expect this level of resolution? Unsurprisingly, the Pentagon has a bigger expense account.

Further, I am stunned that the implication of state “sabotage” takes second chair strategically to Mr. Pollack’s photo resolution anxiety. His publishing pattern is left, all-the-way, and he lacks credibility as a technical commentator, to wit; Education:

- MA of Public Management with specialization in international security and economic policy, University of Maryland College Park
- AB with Departmental Honors in Medieval and Renaissance Studies, Vassar College

Finally, you have no comment on JFK’s 1963 use of classified photographic capabilities, and their “global repercussions”? How is it possible to just dance past Clinton teaching the Chinese how to vaporize American cities, and to fail at drawing equivalence between Trump, and his mimicry of an enshrined Democratic icon?

Am I reading correctly that you would expect a Biden Presidency to act “recklessly with global repercussions”, and “just pocket it for (me)”? Are you still going to vote for Uncle Joe, and why?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 11:35:42 PM by noel c. »

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1389 on: September 13, 2020, 03:56:36 AM »
Apparently I am behind the times. Worldview-4 entered service in February, 2017, with an optical resolution of 30 cm. Nuclear “expert”. Joshua Pollak needs to find other employment. Perhaps he could destabilize the world by contracting some commercial snapshots of Chinese nuclear launch sites, and Tweeting the images.

https://spacenews.com/worldview-4-digitalglobes-newest-satellite-enters-service/
« Last Edit: September 13, 2020, 04:09:15 AM by noel c. »

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1390 on: September 13, 2020, 02:29:42 PM »
...She was wrong. Part of the reason I could not vote for her. But please explain any lasting harm she did the nation, compared to exposing several military capabilities like your boy Trump? I think Snowden is in exile for exactly what Trump has done?

Her emails outed an Iranian who was then killed by his government. There is other stuff, as well. She was dirty - but the most egregious thing was her getting away with it - showing that the elitists can get away with breaking our laws with impunity. Maybe that is what encouraged Comey, Klapper, Stzrok, and the others to stage an unsuccessful coup.

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1391 on: September 13, 2020, 02:35:13 PM »
As for Trump doing what Assange did, Trump cannot divulge secrets, because he is the ultimate decider of what is classified and what is not. As I mentioned before, sometimes we let out partial secrets, or even purposeful disinformation for good reasons. He's the one with the call. You are just on the couch pretending to be all-knowing. The reason our enemies divulged a very fast missile is to affect our military and economic planning. What don't you understand about how this works?

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1392 on: September 14, 2020, 10:32:10 AM »
Trump cannot divulge secrets, because he is the ultimate decider?

Their is absolutely nothing this man might do that you will not defend and stand behind. Trump your voice the ultimate decider. When in history has such allegiance turned on those that gave it? 

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1393 on: September 14, 2020, 12:36:44 PM »
Trump cannot divulge secrets, because he is the ultimate decider?

Their is absolutely nothing this man might do that you will not defend and stand behind. Trump your voice the ultimate decider. When in history has such allegiance turned on those that gave it?

Don't be so Democratic Party loyalist. My point was evident to anyone who doesn't have a grudge against a straw man the Dems created. I didn't say a President can't do the wrong thing - just that he also has the power to declassify anything. I've wanted Trump to declassify the FISA Court documents all the Dems signed off on as being vetted when they knew the info was unverified; but he has not, opting to keep the Court as functional as possible and letting law and order work, instead of throwing it into the public forum.

If you read anything with any semblance of intellect, you'd understand the point of espionage is about what is leaked to the enemy as well as what is hidden. Super-fast missiles was leaked to us. Some stuff was leaked back - but you claim political malfeasance that doesn't exist. You don't want to get into who leaked what to whom. At least not until you have read and understood the Bill Clinton Director of Intelligence at the Department of Energy, Notra Trulock's, book, Code Name: Kindred Spirit. explaining how so much of our top secret tech was handed over to Clinton's illegal foreign doners. You really don't want to fight that battle.

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1394 on: September 14, 2020, 12:54:23 PM »
Your slip is showing

 I didn't say you said "a President can't do the wrong thing" I said their isn't anything you won't defend as it concerns your 'leader' and his party. 

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1395 on: September 14, 2020, 05:21:11 PM »
“I didn't say you said "a President can't do the wrong thing" I said their isn't anything you won't defend as it concerns your 'leader' and his party.“

While I agree that many Trump voters fall into this category, have you considered that the Democratic Party is going to suffer in November because of lost credibility on the issue of being blinded to the opposite proposition?

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1396 on: September 14, 2020, 06:35:21 PM »
I wouldn't worry about it, noel.  This thread demonstrates that there are plenty of actual examples of Trump doing wrong for those willing to see.  And, ultimately, it will be a referendum on Trump.  Trump's actual mistakes and weaknesses are more real than the possible ones that Biden might make. ;)

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1397 on: September 14, 2020, 06:47:00 PM »
WS,

“This thread demonstrates that there are plenty of actual examples of Trump doing wrong for those willing to see.  Trump's actual mistakes and weaknesses are more real than the possible ones that Biden might make.”

I am not worried about what this thread demonstrates, I am depending upon it. Would you like to pick up for Donald, and  Drake? They seem to have wilted.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1398 on: September 14, 2020, 07:12:43 PM »
WS,

“This thread demonstrates that there are plenty of actual examples of Trump doing wrong for those willing to see.  Trump's actual mistakes and weaknesses are more real than the possible ones that Biden might make.”

I am not worried about what this thread demonstrates, I am depending upon it. Would you like to pick up for Donald, and  Drake? They seem to have wilted.

What's the point? It is like a brick wall. I picked a bad guy to quote apparently, but is there anyone on Earth that I could trot out that would actually make you contemplate that maybe Trump shouldn't have put out that photo? Or that he put it out for the wrong reasons, to taunt Iran and assert his dominance, like he does with every real or perceived enemy? That JFK put out a U2 photo to PROVE to the world that these missile sites actually existed, and that U2 imagery was well known to the Soviets at the time, given the depth of their espionage activities?

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1399 on: September 14, 2020, 10:16:58 PM »
“I didn't say you said "a President can't do the wrong thing" I said their isn't anything you won't defend as it concerns your 'leader' and his party.“

While I agree that many Trump voters fall into this category, have you considered that the Democratic Party is going to suffer in November because of lost credibility on the issue of being blinded to the opposite proposition?

But Trump's so bad any alternative is a better option, right. Right?

Bueller? Bueller?!