A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:

[DonaldD]

I'm sure there are worse possible candidates than Trump.  Fortunately, none of those people were vying for the Democratic Party nomination.

[Wayward Son]

No, not any alternative.  That kind of thinking (anyone but Hillary) gave us Trump in the first place.

But certainly Biden is a good alternative.  With over 35 years in government (IIRC), any major problems he has would have come to light a long time ago.

He's not the ideal choice.  He's a gaffe machine.  He's not bold.  He isn't nearly as inspiring as we need.  But none of the contenders were.  And he's sensible, intelligent, listens to people, and his heart is in the right place.  He's not out to humiliate his opponents.  Emotionally, morally, ethically and intellectually, he's head and shoulders above Trump.

But most people are.

My prediction when he was elected was that he would be like a 10 year old driving a semi.  He would do fine, until he was distracted, or something happened that he didn't expect.  Well, that something happened.  Covid-19.  He didn't know how to handle it.  He had dismantled the institution that was designed to confront the problem.  He tried to pretend it would go away.  He did half-measures--stopping travel from China but allowing the disease to come from Europe.  He undermined his own CDC and experts.  He refused to take control of the situation, letting the States handle it themselves, then blaming them for not doing a good job.  He knows how to bully, intimidate, order and shift blame, but he doesn't know how to lead.  Now we are rapidly approaching 200,000 people dead, with a little under a quarter of the deaths worldwide.  And he thinks he did a fantastic job. 

Trump is a disaster.  And anything short of another disaster is better.  Biden ain't great, but he ain't a disaster.

[Wayward Son]

One of the latest tweets from the President of the United States:

Was Andy McCabe ever forced to pay back the $700,000 illegally given to him and his wife, for his wife's political campaign, by Crooked Hillary Clinton while Hillary was under FBI investigation, and McCabe was the head of the FBI???

Four out-and-out lies in one sentence.  You think he can't possibly be worse, and he always surprises us.

[noel c.]

Drake,

“What's the point? It is like a brick wall.“

No, you asked me what lasting damage was done to U.S. national security by the Democratic left, and I demonstrated to you that Bill Clinton transferred technology enabling the Chinese to launch a ICBM attack upon the continental U.S. , which you first attempted to excuse, then ignore. Even Will Lovell, chief licensing officer at the Clinton State Department, believed that the security breach was criminal. This is, no doubt, why Bill transferred licensing authority to the Commerce Department. :

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1998-may-23-mn-52739-story.html%3f_amp=true

The “point” is that you received a direct answer to your question, and I had to pull teeth to get any reciprocal response from you

”I picked a bad guy to quote apparently... “

No, you picked an inane answer to my narrowly focused question.

The reason that I checked Mr. Pollack’s C.V. is not that he is a “bad guy”, it is because his opinion of Trump‘s disclosure was enthusiastically ignorant, and I suspected him to be unqualified to offer an informed opinion. As it turns out, I was correct.

“... but is there anyone on Earth that I could trot out that would actually make you contemplate that maybe Trump shouldn't have put out that photo?“

No, there isn’t. You could trot out General Glen D. VanHerck, and if he choked over a 10cm optical resolution difference between Trump’s photo, and a photo that I could purchase directly over the internet, I would call for his resignation on grounds of dementia.

“Or that he put it out for the wrong reasons, to taunt Iran and assert his dominance, like he does with every real or perceived enemy?”

Now you are waffling.

Are you making an argument that Trump has bad manners, or that putting Iran on public notice that we are closely watching their “space program” endangers national security?

”That JFK put out a U2 photo to PROVE to the world that these missile sites actually existed, and that U2 imagery was well known to the Soviets at the time, given the depth of their espionage activities?”

You are flailing again.

JFK’s disclosure to the U.N. was carefully considered precisely because his administration considered our photographic technical capacity top secret. They released it anyway, and Russia was the intended audience. I don’t know why you bring up the Soviet espionage canard. Francis Gary Powers gave them our best cameras three years previously. There may have been technical improvements in the intervening period. Regardless, having noted your argument, why don’t you assume that the Russians know about our present intelligence capabilities through “espionage“... or how about just plain common sense?

Donald,

It is this substance-free nature of droning progressive attacks on Trump that have handed the traditional Democratic blue-collar voter over to the GOP. As a demographic, they no longer believe you people, nor the broad media.

It has taken some time for me to accept him as my guy, but Trump has been reactively molded into a consistently results-based conservative by Democratic House, and Senate, leadership. Had Schumer, and Pelosi, made early compromises with him, he would have willingly put a knife in our backs. He said as much.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/01/19/us/politics/trump-immigration-conservatives-democrats.amp.html

Trump is your creation, not our’s.

[DonaldD]

Oh, there's plenty of substance, you just ignore it, over and over again.

Trump lies, but that's OK, lies don't matter if we get judges; or those weren't lies - that's TDS.  But now we know Trump lied for months about what he knew about the severity of the disease, and worse, he actively worked to keep that information from the public by throwing up chaff and disinformation, and encouraged people to act in ways that were completely counterproductive to the health of society.

There is now little dispute that his actions and yes, his lies, led to the deaths of tens of thousands of people in the USA - his words and actions making him responsible for the equivalent of dozens of 9/11s worth of death...  Like him or not, he succeeded in at least one goal - he has made himself into one if the most consequential presidents in history.

[DonaldD]

It'll start getting cooler. You just watch ... I don't think science knows, actually.

I guess he didn't get the memo that we are in an interglacial period and temperatures are expected to rise... oops, I meant the other memo, that increases in temperature and CO2 are good for agriculture, or... ah, who am I kidding?  He doesn't read memos.  This is just his usual, irresponsible stupid.

[yossarian22c]

It'll start getting cooler. You just watch ... I don't think science knows, actually.

... This is just his usual, irresponsible stupid.

Soon the northern hemisphere is going to see cooling temperatures and increases in  arctic ice. The northern latitudes will be covered with frozen precipitation. Science says its going to be temporary and spring will follow winter, but I don't think science knows. I mean those climate people are all in the pocket of big ag, just suckering farmers into buying seeds and planting crops in near freezing weather.

[rightleft22]

It'll start getting cooler. You just watch ... I don't think science knows, actually.

... This is just his usual, irresponsible stupid.

Soon the northern hemisphere is going to see cooling temperatures and increases in  arctic ice. The northern latitudes will be covered with frozen precipitation. Science says its going to be temporary and spring will follow winter, but I don't think science knows. I mean those climate people are all in the pocket of big ag, just suckering farmers into buying seeds and planting crops in near freezing weather.

Trump still does not appear to understand the difference between weather and climate.   
I wish someone would have asked if he was basing his thinking on information he has or if he was just cheer-leading?

[noel c.]

Donald,

“Oh, there's plenty of substance, you just ignore it, over and over again.”

Was the Biden campaign, or you for the matter, for or against, Trump’s decision to restrict Chinese travel on January 31st as a response to COVID-19?

[yossarian22c]

Donald,

“Oh, there's plenty of substance, you just ignore it, over and over again.”

Was the Biden campaign, or you for the matter, for or against, Trump’s decision to restrict Chinese travel on January 31st as a response to COVID-19?

Was Trump open and transparent about the nature of the virus and what we knew about it? The USA has 1/5 of the cases and deaths world wide. Even if Trump got one action right he's still completely blown the response to covid in the USA.

Trump held a rally and got a big name supporter killed (Herman Cain). It was also followed by a surge of cases in Oklahoma. But that didn't stop him, he held another big indoor rally in Nevada a couple days ago. Even if you don't blame him for the deaths in the country at large its blows my mind that you can't hold him responsible for the illness and death that come directly from his rallies.

[noel c.]

Y-22,

“Even if Trump got one action right he's still completely blown the response to covid in the USA.”

Okay Nostradamus, say it; Biden “lied”, and killed tens of thousands of people”, right?

[rightleft22]

Donald,

“Oh, there's plenty of substance, you just ignore it, over and over again.”

Was the Biden campaign, or you for the matter, for or against, Trump’s decision to restrict Chinese travel on January 31st as a response to COVID-19?

I was For.

I remember watching the Canada's chief public health officer, Dr. Theresa Tam talking about the option of closing boarders wasn't something they were sure they could do.  When Trump restricted Chinese travel she understood all options were on the table and acted accordingly.  Of course Trump clouded the issue when he restricted EU travel and not the UK which at the time was in as worse or as worse shape then most countries in the EU.

So Yes Trump gets credit for restricting travel and giving the green light for everyone to follow. Gold Star.  Even if their were likely other reasoning involved in which countries travel were restricted.
However that does not make up for the failure of leadership and actually undermining and confusing the response to the Pandemic.

""I bring rage out. I do bring rage out. I always have... I don't know if that's an asset or a liability..." Trump

[rightleft22]

Y-22,

“Even if Trump got one action right he's still completely blown the response to covid in the USA.”

Okay Nostradamus, say it; Biden “lied”, and killed tens of thousands of people”, right?

Had Biden been in charge at the time he most definitely would be held accountable for how he would have responded. How he would have responded having all the information that Trump had is not knowable.

[yossarian22c]

Y-22,

“Even if Trump got one action right he's still completely blown the response to covid in the USA.”

Okay Nostradamus, say it; Biden “lied”, and killed tens of thousands of people”, right?

In what way did Biden's statement about the travel ban influence government policy or people's responses that could have led to increased deaths in the USA?

I'm not predicting the future or alternate universes. Biden wasn't the head of the federal government getting briefed by officials from the CDC, anything Biden may or may not of said didn't influence official government policy. The travel ban from China didn't keep us safe. It failed as a policy response. What else you got?

Trump lied to the public about the severity of the disease and how easily it spread. The USA has had the worst outcome of any wealthy industrialized nation in the world. Trump has held rallies in which supporters subsequently died from. Trump was president through all this, not Biden.

[yossarian22c]

'I was in the White House a couple of days ago, meeting with 10 people in the Oval Office and a guy sneezed innocently, not a horrible, you know, just a sneeze,' Trump is heard telling Woodward in a tape dated April 13. 'The entire room bailed out, OK, including me, by the way.'

Trump in private.

[DonaldD]

I'm going to point out something again - if all of China's reported cases, across the whole span of the pandemic, from Merch until now, had all jumped on one really big airplane and travelled to the USA, the total number of infected coming from China (85,000) would only slightly exceed the largest single day increase in daily reported cases in the USA (79,000 on July 24).

The first cases coming from China directly to the USA (many of which will remain forever unidentified) likely led to many thousands of cases.  But lets not pretend that restricting some travel from China stopped the virus from coming to the USA from China, or that those restrictions were significant in comparison to the lack of hygiene controls that actually would have significantly reduced the spread of the virus within the population.

[noel c.]

RL22,

“So Yes Trump gets credit for restricting travel and giving the green light for everyone to follow. Gold Star.“

Great, can you then bring yourself to say that Biden “lied“ when he made Trump’s travel restriction an issue of “xenophobia”?

“However that does not make up for the failure of leadership and actually undermining and confusing the response to the Pandemic.

Did Biden “undermine” the primary presidential response, and thereby foolishly “cloud” the most efficacious countermeasure?

Y-22,

“In what way did Biden's statement about the travel ban influence government policy or people's responses that could have led to increased deaths in the USA?”

Presumably, supporters believe in the value of Biden’s opinions, correct? If their actions follow suit, ie. downgrade the danger of foreign transmission to mere xenophobic alarmism, does that effect social behavior? In not suggesting that anyone should listen to Joe’s “uninformed” meddling with presidential policy, I’m just saying it is a logical inference. Uncle Joe should really have kept his mouth shut, right?

”Maybe if he had encouraged everyone else to be a careful instead of calling it a flu and saying it would magically disappear.”

It will “magically” disappear, viruses always do. You are really suggesting something else. Did you want Trump to raise an alarm to “be careful”, while Joe is calling him a shrill racist, and Dr. Fauci was telling people that masks would not protect a wearer from infection?

I understand that in an environment where the Chinese are hoarding PPE, and no practical alternative is available to the general public, this could incite unwarranted panic, but what did you really see as a viable alternative if healthcare workers were to be protected?

Donald,

“... But lets not pretend that restricting some travel from China stopped the virus from coming to the USA from China, or that those restrictions were significant in comparison to the lack of hygiene controls that actually would have significantly reduced the spread of the virus within the population.”

Whenever I read you using the word “pretend”, I know that I am in for a treat. Again, were you for, or against, Trump’s China travel restrictions?

[Wayward Son]

On the lighter side, here's a Trump campaign ad that's been on the internet.

Pretty stirring, isn't it?  Brave troops cresting a hill, being protected by the jets above them, with the sun setting behind and the words "Support Our Troops" captioning the picture.

Only one small problem.

This stock photo shows MiG fighter jets above the troops.  And apparently at least one of the troops is carrying an AK-47, the Soviet assault rifle.

A small Freudian slip there? 

[noel c.]

“A small Freudian slip there?”

No, Trump is obviously lying.

[noel c.]

As an aside, U.S. special forces troops actually do carry the AK-47, if they elect to.

[yossarian22c]

Y-22,

“In what way did Biden's statement about the travel ban influence government policy or people's responses that could have led to increased deaths in the USA?”

Presumably, supporters believe in the value of Biden’s opinions, correct? If their actions follow suit, ie. downgrade the danger of foreign transmission to mere xenophobic alarmism, does that effect social behavior? In not suggesting that anyone should listen to Joe’s “uninformed” meddling with presidential policy, I’m just saying it is a logical inference. Uncle Joe should really have kept his mouth shut, right?

So one statement by a then struggling presidential candidate was powerful enough to completely undermine the federal response to a pandemic? That's pretty weak sauce, kind of like WM's opinion that a single letter written by Chuck Schumer caused the great recession at the end of the Bush years. Those democrats sure to know how were to flap a butterfly wing in order to generate a hurricane. 

”Maybe if he had encouraged everyone else to be a careful instead of calling it a flu and saying it would magically disappear.”

It will “magically” disappear, viruses always do.

When's the common cold going to disappear? How about Flu? HIV? Malaria? What planet do you live on? Seriously we can't even get measles to disappear despite having an effective vaccine for 4+ decades.

You are really suggesting something else. Did you want Trump to raise an alarm to “be careful”, while Joe is calling him a shrill racist, and Dr. Fauci was telling people that masks would not protect a wearer from infection?

Umm, yes. Trump is president, have a backbone. If you mean Trump can't do his job if Joe Biden or someone else is going to criticize him then he really shouldn't be president.

I understand that in an environment where the Chinese are hoarding PPE, and no practical alternative is available to the general public, this could incite unwarranted panic, but what did you really see as a viable alternative if healthcare workers were to be protected?

Well maybe what ended up happening after masks were strongly encouraged. People starting making them.

We still have an N95 shortage, seems like that would have been a good use of the DPA. I have several reusable cloth masks, not as good as the real thing but they provide some protection for me and the people around me.

[noel c.]

Y-22,

“So one statement by a then struggling presidential candidate was powerful enough to completely undermine the federal response to a pandemic?”

Are we making allowance for a weak candidate with lukewarm supporters?

“When's the common cold going to disappear?“

Which strain?

”How about Flu?”

Again, which mutation?

“HIV?”

It will likely persist for as long as inter-human anal sex is practiced.

“Malaria?”

Malaria is not a virus, and confers a survival benefit for heterozygous sickle-cell anemia carriers. I don’t think it will disappear for as long as there are people living in the tropics.

“What planet do you live on?”

Relevance?

“Seriously we can't even get measles to disappear despite having an effective vaccine for 4+ decades.”

... And parents are not responsible for MMR vaccination? What is your point?

[noel c.]

Y-22,

“So one statement by a then struggling presidential candidate was powerful enough to completely undermine the federal response to a pandemic? That's pretty weak sauce, kind of like WM's opinion that a single letter written by Chuck Schumer caused the great recession at the end of the Bush years. Those democrats sure to know how were to flap a butterfly wing in order to generate a hurricane.”

One statement, no, many dumb statements, to many dumb followers as Donald has pointed out.

“When's the common cold going to disappear? How about Flu? HIV? Malaria? What planet do you live on? Seriously we can't even get measles to disappear despite having an effective vaccine for 4+ decades.“

I already responded to this.

“Umm, yes. Trump is president, have a backbone. If you mean Trump can't do his job if Joe Biden or someone else is going to criticize him then he really shouldn't be president.”

It is not about Trump’s  “backbone”, it is about “lies” tailored to pliable lemmings.

“Well maybe what ended up happening after masks were strongly encouraged. People starting making them.”

Fauci lied about that also. Homemade masks do not protect the wearer. They protect marginally against aerosol dispersal.

“We still have an N95 shortage, seems like that would have been a good use of the DPA. I have several reusable cloth masks, not as good as the real thing but they provide some protection for me and the people around me.“

I do not have any problem getting the N-95, and no, your cloth mask does not protect you.

[yossarian22c]

Let me get this straight. Noel you're point is the virus will magically disappear when it mutates enough to have a different designation. Is the new mutation going to be more or less infectious and deadly than the current variant. Since its survival of the fittest of infectious viruses any mutation that would out compete the current variety will be able to infect more people than the current iteration. Its up in the air as to how that would impact the severity of the disease. But I think when most people hear "it will disappear miraculously" they aren't thinking of switching out one covid virus for a slightly different one, the way rhinoviruses and flu viruses rotate around. Trading covid-19 for covid-20 isn't a miracle, its Darwin, and a positive outcome from that trade isn't highly likely.

Defending this kind of crap that Trump says is what people mean when they say its like talking to a brick wall. You twist his words to mean something that he didn't intend just so that it is in some way defensible. You keep hammering in on one statement from a stump speech that Biden gave in January or February, as if that doomed America to have the worst response in the industrialized world to covid. That's such a cop out, Trump was president, democrats since March have acted much more strongly to control the outbreak to the point where Trump and his team have accused them of trying to sabotage the economy because of the election.

[rightleft22]

It is not about Trump’s  “backbone”, it is about “lies” tailored to pliable lemmings.

How do you respond to Trump effort to cheer-lead and withhold information because he was worried that the people he was leading, including his followers' might not be able to handle the truth.
When do you know Trump is being honest or cheer-leading? Cheer-leading to his pliable lemmings?
Maybe I can guess. Trump said he was your voice, and only he can fix things and I guess if you accept and trust that. It doesn't matter what he says or not says. - who's the lemming

Fauci lied about that also. Homemade masks do not protect the wearer. They protect marginally against aerosol dispersal.

Fauci made it clear that wearing a mask protects others. In situations where social distancing isn't possible everyone wearing a mask to some degree protects everyone including those wearing the mask. It shouldn't have to be spelled out. If I'm wearing a mask I'm trying to protect you, if your wearing a mask your trying to protect me.   

[DonaldD]

Of course the travel restrictions were required, and even though the European travel restrictions came too late, I wouldn't blame the administration for that delay, because hindsight is 20/20, and you cannot really foresee every eventuality.  The decision to shut down worldwide travel to and from the USA was simply not going to happen on February 1.

But Trump consciously "playing down" the seriousness of the virus, and continuing to do so consistently through his last conversation with Woodward?  Demonizing and mocking people for using masks, and encouraging people to rebel against their states' regulations (even when those regulations are in line with federal guidelines) even as he knew this was a once-in-century public health crisis?  Yes, we can absolutely hold Trump accountable for that.  He has "led" the country to a per capita mortality count that is 20 times higher than Canada, a country with which the USA shares the longest undefended border in the world, and much of that differential can be laid directly at the feet of, not just the lack of federal leadership, but the active resistance of Trump to actions that would have limited the spread of the virus.

[noel c.]

Y-22,

“Let me get this straight. Noel you're point is the virus will magically disappear when it mutates enough to have a different designation.”

When the virus mutates, it will be a different virus. That is kinda the definition of evolution.

“Is the new mutation going to be more or less infectious and deadly than the current variant.”

I do not know, and neither do you. Evolutionary pressure suggests that it will become less virulent. A successful parasite never kills its host.

“Since its survival of the fittest of infectious viruses any mutation that would out compete the current variety will be able to infect more people than the current iteration.”

No, this is just faulty reasoning. If “outcompeting” means killing off available human incubators, then the virus becomes extinct.

“Its up in the air as to how that would impact the severity of the disease. But I think when most people hear "it will disappear miraculously" they aren't thinking of switching out one covid virus for a slightly different one... “

What “most people” think is irrelevant, unless virus outbreaks are controlled by democratic processes.

“... the way rhinoviruses and flu viruses rotate around. Trading covid-19 for covid-20 isn't a miracle, its Darwin, and a positive outcome from that trade isn't highly likely.“

You really don’t know what you are talking about, do you?

“Defending this kind of crap that Trump says is what people mean when they say its like talking to a brick wall. You twist his words to mean something that he didn't intend just so that it is in some way defensible. You keep hammering in on one statement from a stump speech that Biden gave in January or February, as if that doomed America to have the worst response in the industrialized world to covid. That's such a cop out, Trump was president, democrats since March have acted much more strongly to control the outbreak to the point where Trump and his team have accused them of trying to sabotage the economy because of the election.“

Umm, if Trump was comparing the historical record of flu outbreaks, his statement was accurate, and his conclusions reasonable. “Marching” does not control outbreaks, but let me guess; you did it? Kudos for the sentiment.

[yossarian22c]

“Its up in the air as to how that would impact the severity of the disease. But I think when most people hear "it will disappear miraculously" they aren't thinking of switching out one covid virus for a slightly different one... “

What “most people” think is irrelevant, unless virus outbreaks are controlled by democratic processes.

What most people think is relevant since I was saying what people thought Trump meant by Trump saying "It’s going to disappear. One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear."

You with all seriousness believe that covid-19 becoming a new strand of covid-20 with similar symptoms and outcomes is a reasonable interpretation of "it’s like a miracle, it will disappear." If so, you and I then have very different understandings of the words miracle and disappear.

[yossarian22c]

“Is the new mutation going to be more or less infectious and deadly than the current variant.”

I do not know, and neither do you. Evolutionary pressure suggests that it will become less virulent. A successful parasite never kills its host.

“Since its survival of the fittest of infectious viruses any mutation that would out compete the current variety will be able to infect more people than the current iteration.”

No, this is just faulty reasoning. If “outcompeting” means killing off available human incubators, then the virus becomes extinct.

Since the death rate is 1-2% the virus doesn't kill enough hosts to have an impact on its long term survival. Particularly since the virus kills so slowly so even in a host that it ends up killing the virus has time to infect multiple other people. The virus also becomes contagious up to 24 hours prior to the onset of symptoms. So killing 1-2% of those hosts after 3 weeks isn't putting a lot of downward evolutionary pressure on the virus. Its like how Alzheimer's disease doesn't get weeded out from the gene pool because its onset is well after reproductive age.

I think it would be pretty random if this strain were to be out competed if the death rate were to be cut in half or doubled.

[yossarian22c]

Umm, if Trump was comparing the historical record of flu outbreaks, his statement was accurate, and his conclusions reasonable. “Marching” does not control outbreaks, but let me guess; you did it? Kudos for the sentiment.

Well covid isn't the flu. Therefore he shouldn't have been reasoning from flu outbreaks. So now your claim is: If Trump was reasoning from bad information, and came to conclusions that were reasonable from bad information, then his incorrect conclusions are now accurate and shouldn't be held up as Trump being a moron? And if his incorrect conclusions led to making the pandemic worse blame Biden?

Are you talking about "marching" for BLM? I didn't do it. I've assiduously avoided large crowds.

[TheDrake]

Drake,

“What's the point? It is like a brick wall.“

No, you asked me what lasting damage was done to U.S. national security by the Democratic left, and I demonstrated to you that Bill Clinton transferred technology enabling the Chinese to launch a ICBM attack upon the continental U.S. , which you first attempted to excuse, then ignore. Even Will Lovell, chief licensing officer at the Clinton State Department, believed that the security breach was criminal. This is, no doubt, why Bill transferred licensing authority to the Commerce Department. :

Except you did not do that at all. You're implying that was his intent, when he might clearly have just been delegating.

And also, every nation has a right to be able to launch satellites, a side effect of that is that they can rain down nukes, and if we didn't sell them that tech, the French, Russians, Indians, North Koreans, and others would have been delighted to do so.

[noel c.]

Donald,

“Of course the travel restrictions were required,”

The Biden campaign stated otherwise. Were they “lying”, and causing deaths?

“... and even though the European travel restrictions came too late, I wouldn't blame the administration for that delay, because hindsight is 20/20, and you cannot really foresee every eventuality.  The decision to shut down worldwide travel to and from the USA was simply not going to happen on February 1.“

Finally, some realistic responses.

“But Trump consciously "playing down" the seriousness of the virus, and continuing to do so consistently through his last conversation with Woodward?“

What do you believe his motive was?

“Demonizing and mocking people for using masks, and encouraging people to rebel against their states' regulations (even when those regulations are in line with federal guidelines) even as he knew this was a once-in-century public health crisis?”

“Demonizing”, really? Should people have “rebelled“ against Governor Cuomo’s handling of retirement home COVID patients, ordered to be returned to their apartments following hospitalization? This epidemic was handled improperly, and still is. The focus should always have been upon point defense, ie. isolation of the vulnerable populations, precisely what the New York Governor screwed up.

Shutting down the economy was never a good solution, and Trump was right about the ramifications of induced poverty.

“Yes, we can absolutely hold Trump accountable for that.  He has "led" the country to a per capita mortality count that is 20 times higher than Canada, a country with which the USA shares the longest undefended border in the world, and much of that differential can be laid directly at the feet of, not just the lack of federal leadership, but the active resistance of Trump to actions that would have limited the spread of the virus.”

Population density: United States: 35 people/km2
                                     Canada:   4 people/km2

We can be absolutely certain that you don’t know what you are talking about, or don’t care to know what you are talking about.

Y-22,

“Since the death rate is 1-2% the virus doesn't kill enough hosts to have an impact on its long term survival. Particularly since the virus kills so slowly so even in a host that it ends up killing the virus has time to infect multiple other people.?

It does have an effect upon herd immunity, which is a function of virulence, and population density.

Dead people do not develop immunity.

“The virus also becomes contagious up to 24 hours prior to the onset of symptoms.”

I don’t know where you are getting this tidbit from. Completely asymptomatic people can transmit the disease.

“So killing 1-2% of those hosts after 3 weeks isn't putting a lot of downward evolutionary pressure on the virus.”

You are bypassing herd immunity again. The vulnerable 1-2% will never be protected if the disease is genuinely “deadly”. Your containment strategy is wrong because Alzheimer’s patients are generally past the reproductive stage of their lives. COVID carriers, by contrast, are most efficient at transmitting the disease during their reproductive prime, sometimes not even knowing that they are “sick”.

“Its like how Alzheimer's disease doesn't get weeded out...”

No, that comparison is genuinely fallacious. Immunity does not develop for genetic disorders.

“Well covid isn't the flu. Therefore he shouldn't have been reasoning from flu outbreaks.”

Comparing viral genetic drift, even between different types, is not unreasonable, unlike your Alzheimer's parallel.

“So now your claim is: If Trump was reasoning from bad information, and came to conclusions that were reasonable from bad information, then his incorrect conclusions are now accurate and shouldn't be held up as Trump being a moron? And if his incorrect conclusions led to making the pandemic worse blame Biden?”

My present claim is that you are seriously confused.

“Are you talking about "marching" for BLM? I didn't do it. I've assiduously avoided large crowds.“

Do you support “marching” for the elimination of COVID, or did I misunderstand your statement?

[noel c.]

Drake,

“Except you did not do that at all. You're implying that was his intent, when he might clearly have just been delegating.”

I am not even “implying“ that Clinton granted a technology export waiver under political pressure tied to campaign contributions. Further, he was forewarned of the national security implications by his own State Department. I gave you the links, do you read?

“And also, every nation has a right to be able to launch satellites, a side effect of that is that they can rain down nukes, and if we didn't sell them that tech, the French, Russians, Indians, North Koreans, and others would have been delighted to do so.“

The only nation that you listed which transferred Loral-type technology, was North Korea, and they got it from China, that got it from Bill. Now Iran has it, where do you think that came from?

Speaking of brick walls...

[DonaldD]

“Of course the travel restrictions were required,”

The Biden campaign stated otherwise. Were they “lying”, and causing deaths?

Actually, the Biden campaign did not say this.  That was already explained to you yesterday.

However, regardless of that misinterpretation, since the "Biden campaign" did not have the power to set travel policy for the country, whatever words you put into Biden's mouth, those words could not have magically allowed people to travel from China to the USA after travel had been restricted.  No additional travel = no additional deaths.  This is pretty straightforward.

“Demonizing”, really?

Yes, "demonizing" is a pretty accurate description of Trump's actions - actions which continue to lead his supporters to rebel against regulations aimed at reducing the spread of the virus, and which continue to increase the case and death rates.

“Yes, we can absolutely hold Trump accountable for that.  He has "led" the country to a per capita mortality count that is 20 times higher than Canada, a country with which the USA shares the longest undefended border in the world, and much of that differential can be laid directly at the feet of, not just the lack of federal leadership, but the active resistance of Trump to actions that would have limited the spread of the virus.”

Population density: United States: 35 people/km2
                                     Canada:   4 people/km2

Thank you for showing your complete ignorance of the definition of the word "per capita".  If you really want to talk about geographical population density, then you should know that more than 90% of the Canadian population lives within 100 miles of the USA border, and 2/3 of the population live in medium or large population centres.  The question is, whether you truly didn't know that, or whether you chose to ignore that in order to try to make a point... If you like, I'll do the math for you - that's an effective population of 34M Canadians living in 340,000 square miles, giving a population density of 100/m², as compared to 325M people living in the contiguous USA with an area of about 3,100,000 giving a population density of ... 105ppl/m².  Basically, identical.

[noel c.]

Y-22,

I missed this:

“You with all seriousness believe that covid-19 becoming a new strand of covid-20 with similar symptoms and outcomes is a reasonable interpretation of "it’s like a miracle, it will disappear." If so, you and I then have very different understandings of the words miracle and disappear.”

You are begging the question. I have not conceded that “COVID-20” will have similar symptoms, and outcomes”. You do not know either, it would be miraculous if you did.

Nor do I concede that “COVID-19” is “COVID-20”, or that there will be an infectious COVID-20.

[DonaldD]

To follow up on the whole silly geographical argument - any geographical density analysis of this nature is stupid, because people are not uniformly distributed through the total geographic areas.  They live in towns, and cities and villages, and it is their proclivity for interacting with each other that is important when analyzing epidemiological trends, not the size of the swaths of land reserved for agriculture.

[yossarian22c]

Y-22,

“Since the death rate is 1-2% the virus doesn't kill enough hosts to have an impact on its long term survival. Particularly since the virus kills so slowly so even in a host that it ends up killing the virus has time to infect multiple other people.?

It does have an effect upon herd immunity, which is a function of virulence, and population density.

Dead people do not develop immunity.

Not sure why you think this matters. From the virus's perspective a dead person and an immune person are equivalent.

“The virus also becomes contagious up to 24 hours prior to the onset of symptoms.”

I don’t know where you are getting this tidbit from. Completely asymptomatic people can transmit the disease.

“So killing 1-2% of those hosts after 3 weeks isn't putting a lot of downward evolutionary pressure on the virus.”

You are bypassing herd immunity again. The vulnerable 1-2% will never be protected if the disease is genuinely “deadly”. Your containment strategy is wrong because Alzheimer’s patients are generally past the reproductive stage of their lives. COVID carriers, by contrast, are most efficient at transmitting the disease during their reproductive prime, sometimes not even knowing that they are “sick”.

“Its like how Alzheimer's disease doesn't get weeded out...”

No, that comparison is genuinely fallacious. Immunity does not develop for genetic disorders.

Speaking from an evolutionary biology perspective. Viruses that kill the host after being transmitted are no less effective at spreading than those that don't kill the host after spreading. My point is the covid virus genes that kill people are like the Alzheimer’s genes in people. There is no evolutionary pressure to remove them. Because covid kills slowly after reproducing its like there being no evolutionary pressure for it to become weaker just like in human's there is no evolutionary pressure to prevent Alzheimers because the individuals have already reproduced.

[noel c.]

Donald,

“Actually, the Biden campaign did not say this.  That was already explained to you yesterday.”

Actually, the Biden campaign did say this. I provided the link for you yesterday when you dodged my question on your position regarding Trump’s China restrictions.

“However, regardless of that misinterpretation, since the "Biden campaign" did not have the power to set travel policy for the country, whatever words you put into Biden's mouth, those words could not have magically allowed people to travel from China to the USA after travel had been restricted.  No additional travel = no additional deaths.  This is pretty straightforward.“

Biden disregard for Trump travel restrictions = Biden supporters disregarding transmission precautions = increased COVID transmission.

“Yes, "demonizing" is a pretty accurate description of Trump's actions - actions which continue to lead his supporters to rebel against regulations aimed at reducing the spread of the virus, and which continue to increase the case and death rates.“

“Actions” do not equate with “Demonization”, credit for creativity though. Was Pelosi’s visit to the hair salon “demonization”?

“Thank you for showing your complete ignorance of the definition of the word "per capita".“

Per capita is “a” word? No, thank you for showing a complete ignorance of the concept.

“If you really want to talk about geographical population density, then you should know that more than 90% of the Canadian population lives within 100 miles of the USA border... “

Right; Washington, Idaho, Montana, North Dakota, Northern Minnesota, and the Great Lakes... real hotheads of COVID-19.

“... and 2/3 of the population live in medium or large population centres.”

... that are highly isolated.

“The question is, whether you truly didn't know that, or whether you chose to ignore that in order to try to make a point...“

Yes, my question also, as it applies to you.

“If you like, I'll do the math for you - that's an effective population of 34M Canadians living in 340,000 square miles, giving a population density of 100/m2, as compared to 325M people living in the contiguous USA with an area of about 3,100,000 giving a population density of ... 105ppl/m2.  Basically, identical.”

Yes, please do the math:

There are 2.59 km2 per mi2.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/183475/united-states-population-density/

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EN.POP.DNST?locations=CA

Even intuitively you must know better.

I have to get back to work kids.

[DonaldD]

Biden disregard for Trump travel restrictions = Biden supporters disregarding transmission precautions = increased COVID transmission.

Really?  Explain exactly how that worked - did the 100 people who saw his speech live, or the 10,000 who saw the posting online immediately go out and buy tickets to fly from China?  Oh, and of course, those 10,000 people could not have been citizens or permanent residents of the USA, because they were not restricted from flying at that point.  Because at that point, and for months afterwards, travel restrictions were the extent of Trump's precautions - that, and telling people it would magically disappear, go down to near zero within 2 weeks, and my favourite, rebel against your state government.

The rest of your post seems to be one non sequitur after another.

There are 2.59 km2 per mi2.

Yes - so what?  Nothing in my post referenced kilometres, but there must be some point you are trying to make.

[DonaldD]

“Yes, "demonizing" is a pretty accurate description of Trump's actions - actions which continue to lead his supporters to rebel against regulations aimed at reducing the spread of the virus, and which continue to increase the case and death rates.“

“Actions” do not equate with “Demonization”, credit for creativity though. Was Pelosi’s visit to the hair salon “demonization”?

"To demonize" is a transitive verb, so yes, "demonizing" is an action, and since Trump did demonize people who wore masks or who promoted people wearing masks... well, stupid is as stupid does.  In what way do you think Pelosi visiting a hair salon, was 'demonizing' anybody?

[TheDrake]

Drake,

“What's the point? It is like a brick wall.“

No, you asked me what lasting damage was done to U.S. national security by the Democratic left, and I demonstrated to you that Bill Clinton transferred technology enabling the Chinese to launch a ICBM attack upon the continental U.S. , which you first attempted to excuse, then ignore. Even Will Lovell, chief licensing officer at the Clinton State Department, believed that the security breach was criminal. This is, no doubt, why Bill transferred licensing authority to the Commerce Department. :

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1998-may-23-mn-52739-story.html%3f_amp=true

This link? First line "authorized a US aerospace firm to launch a satellite". NOT "authorized the transfer of launch technology to China".

And This, from your own article that you must have read very selectively.

Clinton’s national security advisors also counseled him that the Loral satellite project “will not contribute to Chinese military capabilities.”

And what was the result of this investigation? Impeachment? Censure? Or was it just a witch hunt?

Earlier this week, House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.) created a special panel headed by Rep. Christopher Cox (R-Newport Beach) to look into charges that Clinton approved the technology transfer in response to hefty campaign contributions from aerospace executives. The Senate is planning a parallel investigation.

Then this happened:

Loral has acknowledged not telling the State Department before it provided the help but it denies that the information enhanced China’s military technology.

“If Justice is correct on this matter, the proposed waiver might be criticized for letting [Loral] off the hook on criminal charges for its unauthorized assistance to China’s ballistic missile program,” Berger wrote. “We will take the firm position that this waiver does not exonerate or in any way prejudge” Loral and the issue under investigation.

UNauthorized. Get it?

And:

article

The White House has come under fire for having approved the transfer of satellite technology to China, particularly Loral's request earlier this year to mount a civilian commercial satellite on a Chinese rocket. It is not unusual for U.S. businesses to use foreign rockets, including those of China, to put satellites in orbit, but questions have been raised in this case about the possibility that Beijing gained militarily useful information from the venture.

It was ALREADY THEIR ROCKET. Whether a US satellite was strapped to it, or a nuclear warhead. The rocket existed.

Let's check back in on that Cox/Gingrich investigation shall we?

One GOP-led witch hunt directly to the another. The Loral satellite scandal so intrigued Newt Gingrich, then the House speaker -- who stopped just short of publicly accusing Clinton of committing treason for money -- that he set up a $2.5 million commission headed by Christopher Cox, R-Calif., to look into it. It was the Cox Commission that later fed The Times its Wen Ho Lee stories; the commission's final report concluded hysterically that for more than 20 years China had stolen secret information on every nuclear weapon in the United States arsenal.

Ultimately, all of these scandal stories collapsed. Completely. No charges were ever brought against anyone in the Clinton administration, and no one resigned. Bernard Schwartz was exonerated of all wrongdoing when the Justice Department "turned up not a scintilla of evidence -- or information -- that the president was corruptly influenced by [him]." Wen Ho Lee was exonerated of spying charges; he pleaded guilty to a single count of mishandling classified data and received an apology from the judge for having been shackled and jailed in solitary for a year.

Congressional charges that the Clinton Administration had been remiss in pursuing the spy investigations petered out as well -- especially as it became clear how troubled the Wen Ho Lee case was, and that the president had in fact ordered a revamping of nuclear security the year before, in 1998. The Cox report was discredited for its over-the-top allegations about the dangers of a Chinese spy network.

How about that?

Your scandalometer must be broken, it's still set to discredited charges from the previous century.

[noel c.]

Y-22,

I saw last one, but have to quit after this.

“Not sure why you think this matters. From the virus's perspective a dead person and an immune person are equivalent.“

Yes! From a transmission standpoint, an immune person is equivalent to a dead person. My point is that COVID-19 is not virulent (deadly), or even serious, in the vast majority of cases. The vulnerable sub-population (elderly, pulmonary compromised, cardiac compromised, or immunosuppressed) is protected when it is surrounded by an immunized population. High virulency simply reduces the total immune population.

“Speaking from an evolutionary biology perspective. Viruses that kill the host after being transmitted are no less effective at spreading than those that don't kill the host after spreading. My point is the covid virus genes that kill people are like the Alzheimer’s genes in people. There is no evolutionary pressure to remove them.“

My point is that viral gene drift does not compare to the (relatively) static Alzheimer’s gene. Viruses do “disappear”, just like every other species that has ever existed... just more rapidly.

“Because covid kills slowly after reproducing its like there being no evolutionary pressure for it to become weaker just like in human's there is no evolutionary pressure to prevent Alzheimers because the individuals have already reproduced.”

Not really, but I understand what you are trying to say. A vulnerable infected person can die very quickly. That is not the issue. Do you understand that herd immunity is what will ultimately protect from, and extinguish, this particular strain?

[noel c.]

Drake,

All of the following has been documented for you. :

The State Department did not authorize the launch, get it? To the degree State Department licensing expressed an opinion, it was “criminal” for Loral to contract with China, and Clinton was notified prior to the deal. Bill then transferred licensing authority to the Commerce Department, which does not scrutinize contracts for national security issues. Yes, the rocket was Chinese. Their rockets were not working prior to the Loral collaboration. They were working very well afterwards, and Loral pushed hard for clearance 24 hours prior to the approval deadline. Loral was the largest Democratic donor at the time. Now ICBM technology has spread as far as Iran.

Focus upon the 10cm optical resolution advantage of U.S. military satellites, because that is where our real concerns should be, correct?

[noel c.]

Donald,

You wanted to do the math, so I gave you the conversion.

[DonaldD]

Sweet.  You misunderstand a point, respond with an irrelevant claim that misrepresents reality, and when it's pointed out how even your non sequitur doesn't show what you wanted... you feel the need to respond with something, so you go with... nonsense.

[TheDrake]

The State Department did not authorize the launch, get it? To the degree State Department licensing expressed an opinion, it was “criminal” for Loral to contract with China, and Clinton was notified prior to the deal. Bill then transferred licensing authority to the Commerce Department, which does not scrutinize contracts for national security issues. Yes, the rocket was Chinese. Their rockets were not working prior to the Loral collaboration. They were working very well afterwards, and Loral pushed hard for clearance 24 hours prior to the approval deadline. Loral was the largest Democratic donor at the time. Now ICBM technology has spread as far as Iran.

And this has been documented for you!

Two of the U.S. companies named in the report – Loral Space and Communications Corp. and Hughes Electronics Corp. – were later successfully prosecuted by the federal government for violations of U.S. export control law, resulting in the two largest fines in the history of the Arms Export Control Act. Loral paid a $14 million fine in 2002,[7] and Hughes paid a $32 million fine in 2003.[8]

WOW their lawyers must have been supremely negligent, since you claim they were authorized to do all that by the shaaaaddy Clinton Administration.

Maybe you'd like to point out the smoking gun in the heavily biased and somewhat discreditedCox Report which resulted in zero indictments, and didn't even put a dent in Clinton's reputation with non-crackpots.

You'll want to turn your attention to chapter 6, which covers Loral in depth.

The Independent Review Committee activity was not authorized by any U.S.
Government export license or Technical Assistance Agreement.24 Loral had
obtained two export licenses (No. 533593 and No. 544724) from the State
Department in 1992 and 1993 to allow the launch of the Intelsat 708 satellite in the
PRC. Neither of those licenses authorized any launch failure investigative activity.25

The Defense Department advised the Loral officials to halt all Independent
Review Committee activity and consider submitting a “voluntary” disclosure
to the State Department.
The State Department made similar recommendations, and sent letters to both
Loral and Hughes soon afterward that reported that the State Department had reason
to believe that the companies may have participated in serious violations of the
International Traffic in Arms Regulations.
The State Department also requested that the companies immediately cease all
related activity that might require approval, provide a full disclosure, and enumerate
all releases of information that should have been controlled under the International
Traffic in Arms Regulations.

What did Clinton authorize? He authorized Loral to put their satellite on top of the Chinese rocket. Not all the rest of the stuff that you're whining about. Meanwhile, how bad was that transfer anyway?

China has had the ability to hit the United States with DF-4 and DF-5 intercontinental ballistic missiles for nearly two decades. But it has moved very slowly to improve or its arsenal of these liquid-fueled weapons, estimated to number 17 or 18, according to U.S. experts. Although new, mobile, solid-fueled DF-31 and DF-41 missiles are under development, U.S. specialists say China's military doctrine calls for maintaining only a small number of city-busting nuclear weapons rather than investing in many, high-precision missiles for taking out military installations in a first strike.

"Even if some U.S. technology transfer has occurred, enabling the Chinese to improve the accuracy of their missiles, it's not going to change their doctrine, which requires simply the ability to come within a mile or two of a U.S. city," said Bates Gill, a China specialist at the Monterey Institute of International Studies in California. "I can't see how this latest development will change the strategic reality that Americans have been under from the Chinese for more than 15 years."

Chinese Missile Gain Questioned by Experts

[noel c.]

Donald,

“Sweet.  You misunderstand a point”

What of your points, specifically, are you talking about?

“... respond with an irrelevant claim that misrepresents reality“

Specifically, I am challenging your population density claims.

“... and when it's pointed out how even your non sequitur doesn't show what you wanted... you feel the need to respond with something, so you go with... nonsense.”

Try again. Is this the Canada is identical to the United States line?

[yossarian22c]

Y-22,

I missed this:

“You with all seriousness believe that covid-19 becoming a new strand of covid-20 with similar symptoms and outcomes is a reasonable interpretation of "it’s like a miracle, it will disappear." If so, you and I then have very different understandings of the words miracle and disappear.”

You are begging the question. I have not conceded that “COVID-20” will have similar symptoms, and outcomes”. You do not know either, it would be miraculous if you did.

Nor do I concede that “COVID-19” is “COVID-20”, or that there will be an infectious COVID-20.

Going to add another couple statements from you here.

Viruses do “disappear”, just like every other species that has ever existed... just more rapidly.

Do you understand that herd immunity is what will ultimately protect from, and extinguish, this particular strain?

So your claim is the virus will "disappear" when it becomes extinct following the population gaining herd immunity. And in your opinion that is consistent with Trump's claim of it "like a miracle, it will disappear"?

And that's assuming this virus mutates quickly or has long lasting immunity. Otherwise it could exist for decades or centuries, like measles, polio, smallpox and lots of other viruses that continue to exist in a fairly stable form over long periods of time.

[noel c.]

Drake,

“What did Clinton authorize? He authorized Loral to put their satellite on top of the Chinese rocket. Not all the rest of the stuff that you're whining about. Meanwhile, how bad was that transfer anyway?“

We don’t we just “put satellites on top of Chinese rockets” anymore? Why?

Clinton deauthorized oversight by the State Department to facilitate this sale, why?

Three years following Clinton’s licensing transfer to Commerce, authority was returned to State. Why?

He did this in-spite of State Department notification of risks associated with approval of the contract. Why?

Chinese rockets performed reliably following this collaboration. Why?

You are worried about a 10cm resolution difference. Why?

[noel c.]

Y-22,

“And that's assuming this virus mutates quickly or has long lasting immunity. Otherwise it could exist for decades or centuries, like measles, polio, smallpox and lots of other viruses that continue to exist in a fairly stable form over long periods of time.“

COVID-19 is not stable, but it apparently mutates slowly enough to create a vaccine for. You seemed to understand this when you referenced a hypothetical COVID-20.