Author Topic: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:  (Read 123810 times)

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1650 on: October 02, 2020, 08:40:52 PM »
...Stand by for what?  A sign from God?  Or a sign from Trump?  (Or am I being redundant to Trumpists? ;) )

Has anyone mention that the Proud Boys is NOT a White Supremist organization, and has actually spoken out against them? Why would Trump be expected to know about them? And more importantly, why did Chris Wallace and Biden even bring them up?

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1651 on: October 03, 2020, 07:20:50 AM »
Has anyone mention that the Proud Boys is NOT a White Supremist organization, and has actually spoken out against them? Why would Trump be expected to know about them? And more importantly, why did Chris Wallace and Biden even bring them up?
Why? Probably because the Proud Boys are the most visible, active, media-savvy white supremacist group active today.

Business Insider: August 23
Portland Mercury: August 29
CNN: August 12
Fox News: August 13
BBC: June 17
ABC News: June 30

This is really not hard.  Admittedly, it requires one to exit one's social media echo chamber.

cherrypoptart

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1652 on: October 03, 2020, 07:48:14 AM »
Is there any difference at all between a white supremacist and someone who wants limits on immigration and for it to be a controlled process?

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/oct/1/enrique-tarrio-says-proud-boys-not-white-supremaci/

"Enrique Tarrio insists that the Proud Boys aren’t White supremacists, and he would be in a position to know. For one, he’s the international chairman. For another, he’s Black."

Anyone not for open borders is a racist. In fact, they are a white supremacist. What if they are black, Latino, or both? Doesn't matter. Still a white supremacist. Like the Jews who worked with Hitler who were still Nazis I guess. Maybe Enrique Tarrio was made an honorary white or something.

That seems to be the tact the left is taking. That goes for all Trump supporters too. Racists and white supremacists. Just like Trump himself so of course it's practically a tautology that anyone who supports a racist white supremacist is a racist white supremacist. Who was it who said something about if you keep repeating a lie often enough and loud enough the people will start to believe it? That's what our so called media does all the time. And politicians like AOC.

The exact same immigration policies that Democrats including Hillary supported during the Clinton years are now classified by Democrats and their media mouthpieces as racist and white supremacist.

"We are a nation of immigrants. But we are also a nation of laws. It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our im migration laws we have seen in recent years, and we must do more to stop it."

-- President Clinton
1995 State of the Union


https://clintonwhitehouse1.archives.gov/White_House/Publications/html/briefs/iii-7.html

Bill Clinton's point plan: protect American jobs, deport, assist states, deny public benefits.

But now all of a sudden that's racist white supremacy.

Aris Katsaris

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1653 on: October 03, 2020, 08:23:02 AM »
You know, Gavin McInnes, the founder of the Proud Boys, did link his opposition to immigration with whiteness, by saying "We need to close the borders now and let everyone assimilate to a Western, white, English-speaking way of life"

But on the whole you're right, the Proud Boys don't seem to be inherently white supremacist as an organization (though predominantly so in their membership), they're far-right fascists though.

America has an obsession with groups being "white supremacists" specifically (probably the memories of KKK), which seems to leave it vulnerable to all the other forms of far-right fascism.

I mean if you're okay with Trump effectively supporting a fascist group, just because it's not *specifically* a white supremacist fascist group...

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1654 on: October 03, 2020, 09:43:20 AM »
Aris,

“But on the whole you're right, the Proud Boys don't seem to be inherently white supremacist as an organization (though predominantly so in their membership), they're far-right fascists though.

Do you think that there might be a corollary European propensity to misidentify fascism?

Aris Katsaris

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1655 on: October 03, 2020, 10:10:42 AM »
Aris,

“But on the whole you're right, the Proud Boys don't seem to be inherently white supremacist as an organization (though predominantly so in their membership), they're far-right fascists though.

Do you think that there might be a corollary European propensity to misidentify fascism?


I think you just helped convince me of the reverse - no, you should listen more to Europeans fearing fascism in America, because of our experience with fascism, and I should similarly trust more the opinion of Americans, about the Proud Boys being white supremacists, since after all it's Americans who have the experience of white supremacist groups.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1656 on: October 03, 2020, 10:33:53 AM »
Aris,

You are usually pretty precise in your use of language.

“... you should listen more to Europeans fearing fascism in America, because of our experience with fascism.”

What is the root meaning of the term “fascism” as Mussolini’s party coined it in 1915?

fizz

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1657 on: October 03, 2020, 11:26:08 AM »
when talking about defining what's fascism, it's always useful having read Umberto Eco old classic article:
Ur-Fascism

Aris Katsaris

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1658 on: October 03, 2020, 11:40:18 AM »
noel, would you be happier if I called it "neo-fascist" rather than "fascist"? I really don't care about adding the prefix neo- to things, but suit yourself.

I don't care about Mussolini's definition. We're NOT talking about fascism as it was in 1920, we're talking fascism as it has appeared ever since its defeat at World War II and up to the present day. (neofascism if you want)

A cultlike glorification of violence, the obsession with cultural & other purity (the Proud Boys put restriction on how much their members masturbate!), the worship of some imagined better past, the focus on the need for the supposed defense of the fatherland against supposed external and internal enemies, the worship of one Great Leader against every democratic institution that might oppose him, the violent hatred of anyone who's not right-wing.

These are the leftovers of fascism that constitute neo-fascism, and these all fit the "Proud Boys" to a tee. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck.

And if you talk about "but they don't want to socialize the economy, like Mussolini did", then again it seems you're a century out of date -- absolute control of the economy hasn't been a thing for fascists since World War II. After all fascists needed to ally with other right-wingers against the Soviet Union, and had to use their common hatred of communism to get the allies they needed.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2020, 11:43:08 AM by Aris Katsaris »

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1659 on: October 03, 2020, 01:04:16 PM »
Aris,

So, we are dispensing with the original, and notably socialist/nationalist definition :

“A governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., (the distinguishing feature of fascism), and substituting:

“... emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
“A cultlike glorification of violence, the obsession with cultural & other purity (the Proud Boys put restriction on how much their members masturbate!), the worship of some imagined better past, the focus on the need for the supposed defense of the fatherland against supposed external and internal enemies, the worship of one Great Leader against every democratic institution that might oppose him, the violent hatred of anyone who's not right-wing.“


You left out the only populist element that clearly sets “fasces“ movements (to bind/bundle governmental power with economic command, and control) apart from run of the mill totalitarianism. I do not think that a “neo” prefix will cover a definitional shift that large.

By your neo-definition, Mussolini was not fascist, and today’s China is, specifically as racism enters the political calculus. How is that helpful to coherent discussion given that the term originated with Mussolini’s movement.

I think the appropriation of the word by the left is for pure emotional impact. It just looks too stupid calling everyone, not sufficiently woke, “Hitler”. Focus the contempt more clearly. For example, if “patriotic“ (nationalist) white guys descend to employ the violent street tactics of their Antifa counterparts, just ridicule them as haters of third world cultural infusion, and normalization, who don’t masturbate frequently enough. I understand that it loses something in translation, but that is the point. 

“And if you talk about ‘but they don't want to socialize the economy, like Mussolini did’, then again it seems you're a century out of date -- absolute control of the economy hasn't been a thing for fascists since World War II.”

The Proud Boys appear both silent on economic policies, and devoid of governing aspirations.
Your basic line of reasoning is called begging the question (Tautology). You cannot argue for the legitimacy of a new political designation through simple restatement, and application, of your new definition for pejorative purposes. Self-referential reasoning impairs communication.

“After all fascists needed to ally with other right-wingers against the Soviet Union, and had to use their common hatred of communism to get the allies they needed.”

Bolshevism was everything that you described as fascist. By “right wingers”, I assume that you mean Churchill, and FDR?

Aris Katsaris

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1660 on: October 03, 2020, 02:51:16 PM »
All the parts in the list of elements I gave, noel, would in fact apply to Mussolini and his supporters. You instead however only define fascism by some economic aspect that nobody, not even the fascists themselves, actually even care about, rather than the aspects of fascism that both the victims of fascism and the supporters of fascism actually are interested in.

To say whether something is X or isn't X, might be a definitional game to you, but the actual point is that such a question should be equivalent to "Does it act like X in all relevant ways that people are interested in?"

By your definition even neonazis that actively actually label themselves fascists (and are proud of it) wouldn't fit in your definition, because they don't care about the economy so much.

With your definition, noel, in fact there hasn't existed a single fascist since Mussolini and Hitler's death. According to you neither Franco, nor Salazar, nor Pinochet, nor the Greek junta of the colonels would be called fascists, and certainly not Putin or Orban, am I right?

"Bolshevism was everything that you described as fascist"

I'm all in favour of extending the term to cover certain left-wing groups, but when you can't even accept as fascists people who'd everyone would recognize as classical standard-variety traditional fascists, what's the point?

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1661 on: October 03, 2020, 04:09:02 PM »
Aris,

“All the parts in the list of elements I gave, noel, would in fact apply to Mussolini and his supporters.”

Jews were safe in Italy until 1943, when Germany occupied the country. Unlike the rest of Europe, Italians were active, not passive, in their efforts to protect their Jewish countrymen. Modern China, on the other hand, does not even make an effort to conceal racial prejudice, nor did Stalin, the Vichy French, or the Hungarians.

“You instead however only define fascism by some economic aspect that nobody, not even the fascists themselves, actually even care about, rather than the aspects of fascism that both the victims of fascism and the supporters of fascism actually are interested in.”

You are getting equivocal again. First, I did not define fascism by a single differentiating aspect, Second, you fast forward to pejoratively redefine fascists. Do they call themselves fascists?

“To say whether something is X or isn't X, might be a definitional game to you, but the actual point is that such a question should be equivalent to "Does it act like X in all relevant ways that people are interested in?"

Your reasoning is entirely circular, and I am not playing a game with you.

“By your definition even neonazis that actively actually label themselves fascists (and are proud of it) wouldn't fit in your definition, because they don't care about the economy so much.”

Okay, so we are no longer talking about proud boys, but wanna-be bad boys. The misfits that you are referencing would have been objects of derision to Hitler’s schutz staffel troops. Nazism actually had a well developed ideology that made them extraordinarily dangerous. Your low-functioning punks would not have made it through basic training, much less pass entrance testing for intelligence.

No, “neo-Nazis” are dress-up pretenders.

“With your definition, noel, in fact there hasn't existed a single fascist since Mussolini and Hitler's death.”

No, that simply is not true. The modern Chinese CCP fits the definition of fascism very well, and there is nothing comical about their public displays of military preparation. The fallen USSR also fit nicely under the fascist designation. Modern Russia differs from its earlier permutation in precisely the area of private ownership of industry.

“According to you neither Franco, nor Salazar, nor Pinochet, nor the Greek junta of the colonels would be called fascists, and certainly not Putin or Orban, am I right?“

Franco was a bonafide fascist, but a very poorly organized one. He should have never attempted to run a country. Salazar was clearly not fascist, but authoritarian nonetheless, and unlike Franco was an effective administrator. Pinochet was, like Franco, a military strong-man, but fascist, no. Regarding your Greek colonel junta, did they lay any claim to ideological motives? Putin heads a kleptocracy, but also yearns for mother Russia’s rightful place at the head of nations. If he had a real economy to plunder, I could see a return to fascism in Russia.

"Bolshevism was everything that you described as fascist"

“I'm all in favour of extending the term to cover certain left-wing groups, but when you can't even accept as fascists people who'd everyone would recognize as classical standard-variety traditional fascists, what's the point?

The point is to make words useful by not applying them so liberally that they lose utility. Fascism cannot simply mean, “Bad Guys”.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2020, 04:12:36 PM by noel c. »

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1662 on: October 04, 2020, 02:20:02 AM »
...Stand by for what?  A sign from God?  Or a sign from Trump?  (Or am I being redundant to Trumpists? ;) )

Has anyone mention that the Proud Boys is NOT a White Supremist organization, and has actually spoken out against them? Why would Trump be expected to know about them? And more importantly, why did Chris Wallace and Biden even bring them up?

If Trump knew nothing about them, why did he asked them to "stand by?"  Why does he want their support, if he knows nothing about them?  And why doesn't he know about a major organization in the U.S. that advocates violence?  Don't you think the President should have at least a passing awareness of such an organization?  Or do you prefer your Presidents to make their decisions in ignorance?

And have you verified that they are not a white supremist organization?  Have you verified that none of their members are white supremacists?  Have you verified that they don't spout white supremacists rhetoric?  Wouldn't it be odd if there are a number of white supremacists who are members and friends of the Proud Boys when the Proud Boys speak out so forcefully against white supremacists??  Do you think the Proud Boys stand with other anti-white supremacist organizations like the NAACP?

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1663 on: October 04, 2020, 05:36:59 AM »
WS,

“And have you verified that they are not a white supremist organization?  Have you verified that none of their members are white supremacists?  Have you verified that they don't spout white supremacists rhetoric?  Wouldn't it be odd if there are a number of white supremacists who are members and friends of the Proud Boys when the Proud Boys speak out so forcefully against white supremacists??  Do you think the Proud Boys stand with other anti-white supremacist organizations like the NAACP?”

Wouldn’t it be odd if there were black leaders among the ranks of this, allegedly “white supremacist” group? :

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/oct/1/enrique-tarrio-says-proud-boys-not-white-supremaci/
« Last Edit: October 04, 2020, 05:43:52 AM by noel c. »

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1664 on: October 04, 2020, 07:56:36 PM »
Of course, maybe it was these Proud Boys that President Trump was referring to.  He said he didn't know who these guys were.  I'm sure he'd be proud to tell them to "stand back and stand by" for him, don't you?  :D  (Although I do wonder what he was planning for them to do...  ;) )

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1665 on: October 04, 2020, 08:46:57 PM »
In the "actions speak louder than words" department: Trump orders Secret Service agents to risk their lives driving around the block for a photo op

This isn't getting between a bullet and the president, nor even jumping on a grenade: this is sitting in a hermetically sealed vehicle with somebody who is symptomatic with COVID19 to the degree of needing breathing assistance, and on experimental treatments to combat those symptoms, all for a political stunt.

I have heard several of his proxies voicing the new talking points about how seriously Trump is taking the virus, especially now that he is among those with first hand experience, but that is completely belied by his gratuitous willingness to put the people tasked with protecting his life in danger.

In hospitals, those tasked with treating COVID-19 patients are in full PPE, including gowns, N95 masks, eye protection, gloves with proper ventilation... whereas these poor shmucks were in a tiny enclosed space with limited if any ventilation wearing nothing but masks.

Lloyd Perna

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1666 on: October 05, 2020, 12:45:33 PM »
In the "actions speak louder than words" department: Trump orders Secret Service agents to risk their lives driving around the block for a photo op

This isn't getting between a bullet and the president, nor even jumping on a grenade: this is sitting in a hermetically sealed vehicle with somebody who is symptomatic with COVID19 to the degree of needing breathing assistance, and on experimental treatments to combat those symptoms, all for a political stunt.

I have heard several of his proxies voicing the new talking points about how seriously Trump is taking the virus, especially now that he is among those with first hand experience, but that is completely belied by his gratuitous willingness to put the people tasked with protecting his life in danger.

In hospitals, those tasked with treating COVID-19 patients are in full PPE, including gowns, N95 masks, eye protection, gloves with proper ventilation... whereas these poor shmucks were in a tiny enclosed space with limited if any ventilation wearing nothing but masks.


Apparently, The Expert Doctors at Walter Reed cleared it as safe. But you know better, right?

https://twitter.com/CBS_Herridge/status/1312906142968930305

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1667 on: October 05, 2020, 01:48:39 PM »
And apparently, other doctors at Walter Reed disagree.

Quote
A non-military attending physician at Walter Reed National Medical Center harshly criticized President Donald Trump’s motorcade photo op as something which could endanger lives of Secret Service agents who accompanied him in his SUV.

“Every single person in the vehicle during that completely unnecessary Presidential 'drive-by' just now has to be quarantined for 14 days. They might get sick. They may die. For political theater. Commanded by Trump to put their lives at risk for theater. This is insanity,” Dr. James Phillips tweeted.

But putting aside the possible political and ass-covering motivations of anybody involved: people are generally infectious for 10 days following initial symptoms, and Trump by all accounts was only 2 days away from first showing symptoms.  He was basically at his peak of infectiousness.  Getting into a closed vehicle with other people for no other reason than a photo op, and with people who had no choice in the matter, is simply irresponsible.

And what do those in the Secret Service have to say about it?

Quote
Afterward, members of the Secret Service voiced escalating concern at what many of the agency's personnel have determined is total disregard for their well-being amid a deadly and highly contagious pandemic.

"That should never have happened," one current Secret Service agent who works on the presidential and first family detail said after Trump's drive-by, adding that those agents who went along for the ride would now be required to quarantine.

"I mean, I wouldn't want to be around them," the agent said, expressing a view that multiple people at the Secret Service also voiced in the wake of Sunday's appearance. "The frustration with how we're treated when it comes to decisions on this illness goes back before this though. We're not disposable."
Another veteran Secret Service agent also expressed deep dismay at the Walter Reed ride, though was sympathetic for those around the President given the difficulty in pushing back on the commander-in-chief.
"You can't say no," the agent said.

Lloyd Perna

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1668 on: October 05, 2020, 02:13:00 PM »
And apparently, other doctors at Walter Reed disagree.

Quote
A non-military attending physician at Walter Reed National Medical Center harshly criticized President Donald Trump’s motorcade photo op as something which could endanger lives of Secret Service agents who accompanied him in his SUV.

“Every single person in the vehicle during that completely unnecessary Presidential 'drive-by' just now has to be quarantined for 14 days. They might get sick. They may die. For political theater. Commanded by Trump to put their lives at risk for theater. This is insanity,” Dr. James Phillips tweeted.

But putting aside the possible political and ass-covering motivations of anybody involved: people are generally infectious for 10 days following initial symptoms, and Trump by all accounts was only 2 days away from first showing symptoms.  He was basically at his peak of infectiousness.  Getting into a closed vehicle with other people for no other reason than a photo op, and with people who had no choice in the matter, is simply irresponsible.

And what do those in the Secret Service have to say about it?

Quote
Afterward, members of the Secret Service voiced escalating concern at what many of the agency's personnel have determined is total disregard for their well-being amid a deadly and highly contagious pandemic.

"That should never have happened," one current Secret Service agent who works on the presidential and first family detail said after Trump's drive-by, adding that those agents who went along for the ride would now be required to quarantine.

"I mean, I wouldn't want to be around them," the agent said, expressing a view that multiple people at the Secret Service also voiced in the wake of Sunday's appearance. "The frustration with how we're treated when it comes to decisions on this illness goes back before this though. We're not disposable."
Another veteran Secret Service agent also expressed deep dismay at the Walter Reed ride, though was sympathetic for those around the President given the difficulty in pushing back on the commander-in-chief.
"You can't say no," the agent said.

I don't imagine it was hard for CNN to find a couple of Trump haters to give quotes.  None of whom were privy to the decision making process or the precautions taken.  Has Dr. James P. Phillips been even remotely involved with Trump's care?

NobleHunter

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1669 on: October 05, 2020, 02:31:31 PM »
I don't imagine it was hard for the White House to find a couple of Trump sycophants to give quotes either. Skepticism runs both ways.

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1670 on: October 05, 2020, 02:34:55 PM »

Apparently, The Expert Doctors at Walter Reed cleared it as safe. But you know better, right?

https://twitter.com/CBS_Herridge/status/1312906142968930305

A link to a quote from the deputy press secretary? How about a direct quote from the doctors who cleared it at Walter Reed and if they said it was safe for the president instead of what you're seeming to claim that it was also cleared and safe for the people who had to ride with him.

Lloyd Perna

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1671 on: October 05, 2020, 02:37:32 PM »
That would be CNN's job wouldn't it?  Why haven't they done it?

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1672 on: October 05, 2020, 02:42:03 PM »
That would be CNN's job wouldn't it?  Why haven't they done it?

Because no such doctor exists? Or if the media actually spoke to the doctor they would hear what I hear when the Trump admin says it was cleared as safe. I hear it was "safe for the president" we didn't analyze the risk for those in the car with him.

The Trump administration made the claim, maybe they should get the media in touch with someone to support it.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1673 on: October 05, 2020, 02:43:11 PM »
Any doctor who "cleared as safe" travelling in an enclosed vehicle with a patient suffering from COVID-19 and only 3 days into their symptoms should have to turn in their license, and the Cracker Jack box from whence it came.

Was it the same doctor who admitted to lying to the press about Trump's treatment and status, I wonder..?



Lloyd Perna

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1674 on: October 05, 2020, 02:52:29 PM »
I think you are lying when you accuse the doctor of lying.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1675 on: October 05, 2020, 03:04:53 PM »
Trump on Twitter


Quote
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump

I will be leaving the great Walter Reed Medical Center today at 6:30 P.M. Feeling really good! Don’t be afraid of Covid. Don’t let it dominate your life. We have developed, under the Trump Administration, some really great drugs & knowledge. I feel better than I did 20 years ago!

Ignoring that many people have wild swings in their symptoms, Trump has undergone 3 treatments - 2 of which are experimental at this stage - simply unavailable to regular patients.  This message is simply obscene (I wonder how those 210,000 people feel about it, as well as those still suffering from side effects months later?) Not to mention, he is going back to the White House, which has medical facilities and personal medical care better than most would receive in hospitals.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1676 on: October 05, 2020, 03:23:24 PM »
I think you are lying when you accuse the doctor of lying.

From The Independent:

Quote
When asked if the president had received supplemental oxygen since contracting the virus, White House physician Sean Conley carefully noted that Mr Trump “has not needed any today at all”.

Asked again if Mr Trump received oxygen, Dr Conley said he was not currently on any oxygen at this time.

Reporters continued to press the doctors about if and when the president required any supplemental oxygen whatsoever, leading Dr Conley to confirm that he had not received any oxygen on Thursday or Saturday, as well as when his team was with Mr Trump on Friday.

Of course, we now know that Trump was given oxygen twice, that Conley has admitted to knowing this and, I quote, "trying to reflect the upbeat attitude that the team, the president, the course of his illness has had. (I) didn't want to give any information that might steer the course of the illness in another direction.”  He also allowed that he was "not necessarily" intending to mislead the public - what does that even mean "not necessarily" trying to mislead?  Sorta mislead, but not really? Maybe just a bit mislead-y?

One can argue that his sole responsibility is to his patient - Trump - but that is still an argument against believing what he says publicly.

Lloyd Perna

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1677 on: October 05, 2020, 03:29:12 PM »
Ok, so you admit that he didn't lie and you were lying when you accused him of it.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1678 on: October 05, 2020, 03:34:36 PM »
No, that was a straight up lie.

I get why he did it, but it was still a conscious decision to mislead the public.

NobleHunter

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1679 on: October 05, 2020, 04:29:07 PM »
Trump on Twitter


Quote
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump

I will be leaving the great Walter Reed Medical Center today at 6:30 P.M. Feeling really good! Don’t be afraid of Covid. Don’t let it dominate your life. We have developed, under the Trump Administration, some really great drugs & knowledge. I feel better than I did 20 years ago!

Ignoring that many people have wild swings in their symptoms, Trump has undergone 3 treatments - 2 of which are experimental at this stage - simply unavailable to regular patients.  This message is simply obscene (I wonder how those 210,000 people feel about it, as well as those still suffering from side effects months later?) Not to mention, he is going back to the White House, which has medical facilities and personal medical care better than most would receive in hospitals.

It was pointed out on twitter that of course he feels great, he's been pumped full of steroids.

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1680 on: October 05, 2020, 04:36:11 PM »
Quote
REPORTER: Can we please [inaudible] one thing. Has he ever been on supplemental oxygen?

CONLEY: He, right now he is not on oxygen.

REPORTER: I understand, I know you keep saying right now, but should we read into the fact that he had been previously?

CONLEY: Yesterday and today he was not on oxygen

https://www.npr.org/2020/10/03/919894816/transcript-presidents-trumps-doctors-provide-saturday-update-on-his-health

So on Saturday the doctor said he wasn't on oxygen yesterday (which was Friday). Which we now know Trump did receive oxygen on Friday.


I get this isn't an earth shattering lie. But it is clearly a lie that served no purpose other than to make it seem like Trump was doing better than he actually was.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1681 on: October 05, 2020, 06:32:08 PM »
Donald,

“In hospitals, those tasked with treating COVID-19 patients are in full PPE, including gowns, N95 masks, eye protection, gloves with proper ventilation... whereas these poor shmucks were in a tiny enclosed space with limited if any ventilation wearing nothing but masks.”

You still don’t get it. If you want 95% protection from airborne particles in the 3-5 micron range, the “N-95” will do it. If you want virtually 100% protection from airborne particles in the 3-5 micron range, get an “N-100”. If you don’t need protection, wear those useless surgical masks that probably all of the lefties on this board are wearing to signal their morality. “Poor schmucks” wearing the right gear do not need “ventilation”.

I gotta know Donald, what type of mask are you wearing?

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1682 on: October 05, 2020, 06:34:39 PM »
Y-22,

“It was pointed out on twitter that of course he feels great, he's been pumped full of steroids.”

What point are you trying to make, that Trump should act sick and/or dying?

I think that what you see in the coming week regarding his work schedule is going to depress you, and many of those like you. From here on, Trump can throw his presidentially embroidered mask in the trash.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2020, 06:38:28 PM by noel c. »

msquared

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1683 on: October 05, 2020, 06:38:44 PM »
As a man whose father was pumped full of steroids when he was dying of cancer, I think what Y-22 was trying to say is that a person pumped full of steroids is in no real condition to evaluate their own health situation. They make you feel like a superman, when inside you are still very sick.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1684 on: October 05, 2020, 06:43:18 PM »
Msquared,

Trump was just released from the hospital. What can we infer relating to his medical condition?

NobleHunter

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1685 on: October 05, 2020, 06:44:17 PM »
That was me and msquared is correct.

I think the next weeks are going to see an endless stream of deceptions about Trump's health followed by hasty corrections.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1686 on: October 05, 2020, 06:47:50 PM »
NH,

“I think the next weeks are going to see an endless stream of deceptions about Trump's health followed by hasty corrections.”

Will you be disappointed if he fully recovers in time for the next debate?

NobleHunter

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1687 on: October 05, 2020, 06:49:10 PM »
Yes, because that will be extremely boring.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1688 on: October 05, 2020, 06:54:10 PM »
Boring? I can think of many adjectives to describe Trump’s “debate” style, but that is not among them.

Seriously though, you want him to be sick, correct? Maybe even as sick as possible, short of death? Or have I drawn the line too conservatively?

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1689 on: October 05, 2020, 06:55:42 PM »
That was me and msquared is correct.

I think the next weeks are going to see an endless stream of deceptions about Trump's health followed by hasty corrections.

Rather we will see knee-jerk reactions to any statements anytime, anywhere, and see pejorative uninformed opinion masquerading as clever banter. Whatever the mediacal people say, the Left will reject it as conspiracy. Will we see any reports on the Biden family graft? Will we see anything on Hillary's recorded statements about bringing down Trump? There is news out there, but what will be reported, and what will be ignored?

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1690 on: October 05, 2020, 09:02:46 PM »
Quote
Don’t be afraid of Covid

The arrogance of Trump is staggering. Because 99.9% of people in the country don’t have access to the care he just received and 3 days in the hospital would be a month’s salary or more even with insurance. Over 200,000 Americans dead. What a tone deaf jackass.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1691 on: October 05, 2020, 11:15:48 PM »
Y-23,

“The arrogance of Trump is staggering. Because 99.9% of people in the country don’t have access to the care he just received and 3 days in the hospital would be a month’s salary or more even with insurance. Over 200,000 Americans dead. What a tone deaf jackass.”

So, it sounds like you have resigned yourself to Trump’s survival, and the political leverage he now has as a result. I said this was coming.

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1692 on: October 06, 2020, 09:29:06 AM »
...Stand by for what?  A sign from God?  Or a sign from Trump?  (Or am I being redundant to Trumpists? ;) )

Has anyone mention that the Proud Boys is NOT a White Supremist organization,

It's so much better that they are a violent, anti-semitic, and chauvinist organization.

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1693 on: October 06, 2020, 09:48:22 AM »
Quote
Maybe I'm Immune

I don't think Trump understands what immune means. Receiving 3 days of experimental medical treatment and 3 different drugs and probably still being contagious to those around him doesn't make him "immune."

Once he clears the virus then he likely will be immune for a while. But he isn't there yet.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1694 on: October 06, 2020, 11:14:50 AM »
Trump tweets: COVID-19 less lethal than flu for most populations!!

Quote
Flu season is coming up! Many people every year, sometimes over 100,000, and despite the Vaccine, die from the Flu. Are we going to close down our Country? No, we have learned to live with it, just like we are learning to live with Covid, in most populations far less lethal!!!

Somebody has got to wrest his phone away from him until he's no longer hopped up on drugs.  The alternatives are 1) he actually believes the completely counter-factual things he is saying and is not high on steroids, or b) he is simply lying.

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1695 on: October 06, 2020, 11:25:55 AM »
...Stand by for what?  A sign from God?  Or a sign from Trump?  (Or am I being redundant to Trumpists? ;) )

Has anyone mention that the Proud Boys is NOT a White Supremist organization, and has actually spoken out against them? Why would Trump be expected to know about them? And more importantly, why did Chris Wallace and Biden even bring them up?

Quote
The Proud Boys are a far-right, neo-fascist, and male-only organization that promotes and engages in political violence in the United States and Canada. While the group officially rejects racism, several members have been affiliated with white supremacy and leaders often share white nationalist content within the group
Walks like a duck, smells like a duck might be a duck. But sure like Trump the Proud Boys can create their own reality and everyone must buy in.

For someone as smart and informed as Trump, no one is smarter or has the best words, one might expect that he knows something about such things as Proud Boys. He knew about Antifa?
Maybe Wallace and Biden should have said the KKK but Trump doesn't know anything about them either. Of course Trump could have just denounced White Supremacy in general without the need for a specific name. Or maybe Trump needs to be infected before he learns anything. I was glad to hear yesterday that after 8 months he learned all about covid.  Stand by and follow me.

Trump always knows everything unless knowing something might mean he might need to take responsibility. 

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1696 on: October 06, 2020, 11:27:38 AM »
Trump tweets: COVID-19 less lethal than flu for most populations!!

Quote
Flu season is coming up! Many people every year, sometimes over 100,000, and despite the Vaccine, die from the Flu. Are we going to close down our Country? No, we have learned to live with it, just like we are learning to live with Covid, in most populations far less lethal!!!

Somebody has got to wrest his phone away from him until he's no longer hopped up on drugs.  The alternatives are 1) he actually believes the completely counter-factual things he is saying and is not high on steroids, or b) he is simply lying.

There is a C) he dons't care. he's not lying if what he says fits his narrative.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1697 on: October 06, 2020, 05:39:43 PM »
Just in case you missed this, Lloyd

I think you are lying when you accuse the doctor of lying.

Quote
REPORTER: Can we please [inaudible] one thing. Has he ever been on supplemental oxygen?

CONLEY: He, right now he is not on oxygen.

REPORTER: I understand, I know you keep saying right now, but should we read into the fact that he had been previously?

CONLEY: Yesterday and today he was not on oxygen

https://www.npr.org/2020/10/03/919894816/transcript-presidents-trumps-doctors-provide-saturday-update-on-his-health

So on Saturday the doctor said he wasn't on oxygen yesterday (which was Friday). Which we now know Trump did receive oxygen on Friday.


I get this isn't an earth shattering lie. But it is clearly a lie that served no purpose other than to make it seem like Trump was doing better than he actually was.

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1698 on: October 06, 2020, 05:53:14 PM »
The doctor looked foolish and I suspect it was suggested he not displease his master.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1699 on: October 06, 2020, 06:13:22 PM »
Oh, I can sympathize with the doctor, and since his only duties are to his patient (and in a very specific case**, to the country) it was arguably the right thing to do.

But we have to be aware, as he demonstrated, that his communications to the public on this topic cannot be taken at face value: he has no responsibility to tell the press the truth of his patient's status, and if he calculates that the health of his patient is better served by lying to the press, then that is his responsibility.

**His only other responsibility is to the country (via the cabinet): and that would be to inform the cabinet that he felt the president could no longer exercise his duties - which has nothing to do with his communications to the press.