Author Topic: Nice business you have there  (Read 15722 times)

Crunch

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Nice business you have there
« on: September 04, 2019, 06:50:32 PM »
Be a shame is something happened to it, right?

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Local social media is abuzz over efforts in Pittsburgh to identify and boycott businesses owned by supporters of President Donald Trump.

“I think it’s important because people have a right to know where their money is going,” Pittsburgh blogger Brian Broome told KDKA political editor Jon Delano on Tuesday. …

“If there is a specific ideology that you don’t support, you are well within your rights not to hand that money to someone who supports that ideology,” says Broome. “Trump supporters have boycotted everything from Keurig to Nike, so I don’t know why, quote-unquote, the other side can’t decide not to give their money to businesses as well.”

To be perfectly clear of the goal:

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The new website promises to include, “a database of Trump-supporter owned businesses in the Pittsburgh area, as well as tips for how to get those specific businesses closed down.”

What are they going to do once they’ve destroyed the Trump supporter’s livelihood? They’re still gonna vote. If/when this voter suppression effort doesn’t work, what’s next? Send in some black bloc antifa guys to get everyone thinking right?

And don’t try to call this a boycott, it ain’t. It’s a mobbed up street action against political opponents, no matter what the cost.

Debra Messing and her Hollywood buddies want a similar list to know if anyone in their industry is now or has ever been a Republican so they can avoid working with them. Nice.

Any of you guys joining the crowd and making lists of targets to take action against in 2020?

scifibum

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2019, 07:29:48 PM »
Free market, except when it does something we don't like. Right?

D.W.

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2019, 08:55:41 PM »
Welcome to the information age. 

Seriati

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2019, 09:55:34 PM »
Crunch, new rules of the game, just recommend to your friends that they fire anyone that isn't a Trump supporter.  Let's go back to putting political parties on job applications, it'll be fun.

Fenring

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2019, 11:43:07 PM »
Free market, except when it does something we don't like. Right?

I'm not sure whether to love this comment or hate it. I suppose it depends on whether you're lampooning free market values as they're sometimes espoused, or supporting the right for people to use social pressures to affect the market, as in 'what's good for the goose' kind of thing.

Crunch

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2019, 07:21:52 AM »
Free market, except when it does something we don't like. Right?

You think this is an example of free market economics?

Crunch

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2019, 07:24:11 AM »
Crunch, new rules of the game, just recommend to your friends that they fire anyone that isn't a Trump supporter.  Let's go back to putting political parties on job applications, it'll be fun.

Exactly.  We can also use these new liberal rules to decide who gets medical care or is allowed to get a home loan. So many wonderful applications of the new rules.

Everyone cool with this,  Right?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 07:28:53 AM by Crunch »

TheDrake

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2019, 09:13:43 AM »
So I assume you're against this also?

http://www.boycottleftwingers.com/

rightleft22

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2019, 10:03:19 AM »
So is this a example of deplatforming, one dollar one vote, ignorance?

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We can also use these new liberal rules
I don't know anyone liberal that thinks these foolish types of call to action are anything but foolish and most certainty not a 'rule' 
I can see how a over generations of all people on the right and all those on the left think the same helps each side feel superior or justified in acting as they do but this is getting out of hand.

I don't know maybe I don't know what a liberal or Conservative is anymore... the crap rising to the surface as being the issue or the offence... I don't recognize it as liberal or conservative.

My feeling is that social media with is almost instant feedback and were the most resent comment it what people see and almost always the most extream that rises to the top is skewing our perception of what the 'other side' thinks and believe. Were to lazy to dig deeper, over generalizing and over simplified statements like 'these new liberal rules' works in justifying our own foolishness and the harding our our righteousness. Its just to easy to believe the worst and react to that. Responding ... no time for that.   

Rant over... OMG this has to stop.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 10:05:59 AM by rightleft22 »

TheDrake

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2019, 11:13:55 AM »
Also, if Chick-fil-A is any example, these types of actions tend to trigger a reverse reaction - I'll bet these Pittsburgh businesses are going to wind up with more business because of the list rather than less. Assuming it has any effect at all.

A quick search on the creator of the list, Brian Broome, indicates that he's getting a degree in creative writing advancing far left causes. I'd bet he did the whole thing to generate attention and followers for himself. He's the perfect guy to point out as a typical liberal if you live in fantasy land.

Wayward Son

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2019, 11:57:48 AM »
So I assume you're against this also?

http://www.boycottleftwingers.com/

Why would he?  Conservatives have been calling for boycotts for their opponents for years now.  They only get outraged when Conservatives are being targeted.  Otherwise, it's perfectly legitimate.

scifibum

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2019, 02:39:47 PM »
BUT WAYWARD IT ISN'T A BOYCOTT IT IS EVIL LIBRULS BEING EVIL.

Crunch

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2019, 07:35:16 AM »
I realize that building strawmen and then arguing against it is the way you guys like to work but that was a new level of logical fallacy.  Damn, it’s really amazing to see such a combined effort.

I’ve been pretty consistent about not liking politically motivated violence and otherwise targeting people for harmful actions based purely on political affiliations. Obviously, what I say doesn’t matter, you guys will just make it up.

Sad!

Wayward Son

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2019, 11:50:40 AM »
Well, it would help if you actually decried on the record the list of boycotts that TheDrake listed, and had shown outrage at previous boycotts, like the Virginia GOP's boycott of the Red Hen restaurant.

ScottF

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2019, 02:31:01 PM »
Horrible example. The Red Hen scenario was one where the restaurant itself refused to serve someone for no other reason than political affiliation and who their employer was. Sanders didn’t ask for a custom GOP burger or make any kind of statement, just wanted the same menu items as anyone else and was told to leave because of who her boss was.

How is calling for boycotting clearly discriminatory behavior of one business analogous to asking for a blacklist of all people who meet criteria X?

Wayward Son

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2019, 03:09:07 PM »
Well, where do you draw the line between a "good" boycott and a "bad" one then?

Crunch

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2019, 03:25:00 PM »
Well, it would help if you actually decried on the record the list of boycotts that TheDrake listed, and had shown outrage at previous boycotts, like the Virginia GOP's boycott of the Red Hen restaurant.

So if I don’t make a post about every single example of it I must support some of it that you can interpret in a way most convenient for you?  smh.

Wayward Son

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2019, 03:30:22 PM »
Well, without further information of what you do and don't support, what are we supposed to do? ;)

Why don't you just further elaborate on your position, rather than attacking those who ask the question?

ScottF

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2019, 05:48:36 PM »
Well, where do you draw the line between a "good" boycott and a "bad" one then?

Boycotts are not the same as blacklists, nor are they the same as denying service to individuals. This seems like a weird thing to have to explain.

Wayward Son

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2019, 06:37:47 PM »
Since the blacklist purpose was to boycott, and a boycott by a business against an individual seems a lot like a boycott by individuals against a business, and since I was referring to a boycott of a business--no, I think you do have to explain. :)

ScottF

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2019, 08:32:10 PM »
... a boycott by a business against an individual seems a lot like a boycott by individuals against a business...

No. A private business can be compelled by law to serve a customer. A customer cannot be compelled by law to patronize a private business. I suspect you're just being silly but I'm not sure.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2019, 09:16:25 PM »
"A private business can be compelled by law to serve a customer. A customer cannot be compelled by law to patronize a private business."

That was true until Obamacare.

Crunch

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2019, 10:28:44 PM »
Well, without further information of what you do and don't support, what are we supposed to do? ;)

Why don't you just further elaborate on your position, rather than attacking those who ask the question?

Just keep making things up. It’s what you’re gonna do, right? Why would you change now?

TheDrake

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2019, 04:13:50 AM »
Well, it would help if you actually decried on the record the list of boycotts that TheDrake listed, and had shown outrage at previous boycotts, like the Virginia GOP's boycott of the Red Hen restaurant.

So if I don’t make a post about every single example of it I must support some of it that you can interpret in a way most convenient for you?  smh.

You don't have to have done it already, you can do it right now.

Crunch

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2019, 09:26:35 AM »
There have been a couple of mass shootings lately that not a single person here posted a condemnation of. Using the logic above, this proves everyone here supports and condones mass shootings.

Does that help you?

Wayward Son

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2019, 02:25:19 PM »
... a boycott by a business against an individual seems a lot like a boycott by individuals against a business...

No. A private business can be compelled by law to serve a customer. A customer cannot be compelled by law to patronize a private business. I suspect you're just being silly but I'm not sure.

Very true.  However, I was referring to a boycott of a business that boycotted an individual, which is not compelling the business by law to serve a customer.  Rather, it was trying to compel a business through a boycott to obey the law (although I'm not sure the law covers discriminating against customers based on political affiliation and/or being a part of a government administration).

So while you are correct that a boycott by a business against an individual is not exactly a boycott by individuals against a business, and the former is often illegal, it still does not address why a boycott against a business that boycotted an individual is good, while a boycott against a group of businesses that support an evil Administration (in the eyes of those who are boycotting) is evil.

Wayward Son

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2019, 02:52:37 PM »
There have been a couple of mass shootings lately that not a single person here posted a condemnation of. Using the logic above, this proves everyone here supports and condones mass shootings.

Does that help you?

No, not really.  If I had started a thread loudly condemning a mass shooting by a Conservative, but then had said nothing about previous ones by a Liberals, then there might be a parallel, and you could ask me to clarify my position as to whether it was the mass-shooting or the fact that it was a Conservative who did it that was more important.  But since I didn't, I don't see why I should. (And for the record, I am completing and unutterably against all mass shootings, especially aimed at political opponents, if I wasn't clear about that before. ;) )

And if that situation had occurred, I don't think I would mind clarifying my position with the above statement, if only to dispel rumors. :)

So, no, that is not my logic, and I still would like you to clarify your position on whether you condemn boycotts per se, or only those against Conservatives.  Unless, of course, you'd prefer that we come to our own conclusions without your input. ;)

Crunch

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2019, 06:29:25 PM »
Look, you’re going to make up a position for me with my input or not. It’s kind of your thing, the strawman fallacy. Make up anything you want, I don’t care. I’m not going down the path you want, it’s logical fallacies all the way down.

DonaldD

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2019, 08:47:21 PM »
Coming to a conclusion about you and making up a position for you are two completely different things, Crunch.  Why be so transparently dishonest?

But that's beside the point, really - why don't you have the courage to clarify your position?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 08:49:26 PM by DonaldD »

Crunch

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2019, 07:58:51 AM »
I have. Many times.

scifibum

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2019, 11:48:50 AM »
How about the various gun enthusiasts encouraging a boycott of Walmart in protest of its decision to ban open carry and limit sales of guns and ammo? Is that a mobbed up street action? What distinguishes a politically motivated boycott from a mobbed up street action?

I think I know the answer: the GOP has settled on "we are being persecuted" as one of the core messaging principles.

DJQuag

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2019, 11:53:09 AM »
How about the various gun enthusiasts encouraging a boycott of Walmart in protest of its decision to ban open carry and limit sales of guns and ammo? Is that a mobbed up street action? What distinguishes a politically motivated boycott from a mobbed up street action?

I think I know the answer: the GOP has settled on "we are being persecuted" as one of the core messaging principles.

Obviously fascists.

Fenring

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2019, 12:16:59 PM »
How about the various gun enthusiasts encouraging a boycott of Walmart in protest of its decision to ban open carry and limit sales of guns and ammo? Is that a mobbed up street action? What distinguishes a politically motivated boycott from a mobbed up street action?

I think I know the answer: the GOP has settled on "we are being persecuted" as one of the core messaging principles.

I think there's been some trouble in this thread with people getting across to each other what their objection (or lack of objection) really is. There seem to be various versions of boycott mentioned thus far, but they seem to me to have some differences that need clarifying. I'll try to make a simple list:

(a) Boycotting a business for its general business decisions
(b) Boycotting a business for a particular action it took
(c) Boycotting a business for the political affiliation of its owners or CEO
(d) Businesses creating a blacklist against customers of a certain persuasion or belief
(e) Businesses refusing to serve particular customers for particular actions
(f) Businesses 'blacklisting' (i.e. firing or refusing to hire) employees of a certain belief or politics (This one wasn't mentioned in the thread but I thought I'd throw it in)

OP seems to me to be about (c), which reminds me of the Brendan Eich incident at Mozilla. Basically, if a business owner or CEO is a 'bad guy' then that person needs to be ousted, or the business ruined if they remain. It's a pure red vs blue politics thing, and looks remarkably similar to be to version (d), which would be a business declining to have people of the wrong political belief frequent their establishment. Now (d) may be less common because the business incentive to sell will probably override this kind of principle, but they both look ugly to me.

Your example, scifi, seems to be versions (a) or (b), which are the normal sorts of reasons for a boycott. A gun enthusiast doens't need to have it out for Democrats in order to be upset with Walmart for adopting a questionable policy on its gun sales, any more than you need to have a political agenda in order to be upset with Walmart for how it deals with vendors. ScottF's point that a blacklist (d) is fundamentally different from (a) and (b) would seem to follow from the fact that where the profits of a business go is different from how the business is run. In a way it's no one's business, is it? Would it seem reasonable to go through the trash of the primary shareholders and boycott the company because they invest in foreign property rather than re-investing in the U.S.?

I could see one case for an overlap of owner responsibility and business operation: for instance let's say the U.S. is at war with Nazi Germany, and a local company is financially tied to the Reich. I could see an obvious case to call the owners traitors even though they may run their company well. In that sort of case "where the money goes" is a big deal because it's basically being used against America. But if the money is going towards an American interest, just one that some disagree with, the word "traitor" cannot possibly apply; except I think that *is* what's happening here. Basically the gist seems to be that anyone who supports the wrong political side is a traitor, and this sort of sentiment seems to be reflected in what I see on social media.

TheDeamon

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2019, 12:16:14 PM »
I could see one case for an overlap of owner responsibility and business operation: for instance let's say the U.S. is at war with Nazi Germany, and a local company is financially tied to the Reich. I could see an obvious case to call the owners traitors even though they may run their company well. In that sort of case "where the money goes" is a big deal because it's basically being used against America. But if the money is going towards an American interest, just one that some disagree with, the word "traitor" cannot possibly apply; except I think that *is* what's happening here. Basically the gist seems to be that anyone who supports the wrong political side is a traitor, and this sort of sentiment seems to be reflected in what I see on social media.

Pretty much, for me the entire mess reeks of McCarthy in the 1950's. That the Democratic Auxiliaries are the ones perpetuating it, and failing to pay attention to the lessons of history on the matter is something they pursue at their own peril.

TheDrake

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2019, 01:22:11 PM »
Maybe if McCarthy were a city Alderman. I haven't seen any evidence that this is anything other than a local phenomenon that somehow people are trying to apply to the entire Democratic Party.

Fenring did a good job of breaking down some differences. I agree that there is a spectrum, not only in how involved the target is with activity but also the perception of their affiliation as a "bad" group. I doubt many people would have a problem with a boycott of businesses owned by Antifa or White Power donors.

The closer analogy to (c) would be Something like this

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2) Progressive Insurance: Peter Lewis is the Chairman of Progressive Insurance Companies and outside of George Soros, he may be the biggest liberal sugar daddy on the block. This former close friend of Ted Kennedy has poured tens of millions of dollars into the ACLU, America Coming Together, and MoveOn, among other liberal causes. So, why not get your auto insurance from a company that isn’t working to destroy the American way of life?

This isn't purely a liberal thing, but it also isn't much to worry about. I doubt Progressive has lost many customers.

TheDrake

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2019, 02:56:50 PM »
Nothing to say? Want to defend calling this McCarthyism?

Fenring

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2019, 03:07:44 PM »
Maybe if McCarthy were a city Alderman. I haven't seen any evidence that this is anything other than a local phenomenon that somehow people are trying to apply to the entire Democratic Party.

Hm. Even if some right-wingers do sort of imply it's endemic to the entire Democratic party, I don't think it's necessary to try to swing to the entirely other side and claim it's 'just a few locals'. It certainly wasn't that with Mozilla, seems not to have been that in the case of James Gunn - and yes, I am putting both of these in the same category, because they're both about eliminating undesirables from the public arena. I would suggest that any case of businesses blacklisting people of a certain sort, or likewise citizens boycotting businesses whose owners are of a certain sort (especially political), are examples of decentralized McCarthyism. The time has long past when we need to narrowly consider threats to come from government aimed at the people, although of course that is still a danger. But now the people can just as equally target each other threatening their functional free speech and other rights, whose protection is only guaranteed against government but not against their fellow man. Yes, it can be individual wasps trying to sting, but as we've seen it can also be a swarm.

TheDrake

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2019, 03:20:14 PM »
James Gunn isn't even close to this situation. The response to him was about uncontested statements made by him, not about attending a meeting where other people said things, like in McCartyism. It is also interesting to note that Gunn was also virulently anti-Trump, which led to the scrutiny. Kind of like a group of communists going after one of their own for not being communist enough.

Let's also recall Gunn's post: "The best thing about being raped is when you’re done being raped and it’s like ‘whew this feels great, not being raped!"

That's not at all the same as somebody making a donation to a campaign.

Mozilla is also isolated. McCarthyism meant you didn't work anywhere. Anybody who didn't get hired by Mozilla could apply at Google, Microsoft, and a thousand other companies that weren't doing that. A single company does not a blacklist make. Mozilla employs about 1,000 people worldwide. It's just not that compelling.

Fenring

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2019, 03:35:46 PM »
TheDrake,

You can rationalize each instance any way you like and explain why it's unique. The bottom line is that internet mobbing, Twittter storming, and generally going after people for stuff comes in all shapes and seems to me all part of the same basic phenomenon. It can be about GameGate, or political donations, or statements made on Twitter, or whatever.

TheDeamon

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Re: Nice business you have there
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2019, 10:40:13 AM »
Mozilla is also isolated. McCarthyism meant you didn't work anywhere. Anybody who didn't get hired by Mozilla could apply at Google, Microsoft, and a thousand other companies that weren't doing that. A single company does not a blacklist make. Mozilla employs about 1,000 people worldwide. It's just not that compelling.

Mozilla is an isolated case? Really?

Didn't that involve efforts to blacklist some eight thousand people based on an illegally leaked document involving California's Proposition 8 from a few years prior to that?

Nice to know that an event involving thousands of people can be written off as "isolated."