Author Topic: The Race is On  (Read 23481 times)

Seriati

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #100 on: November 05, 2019, 03:54:46 PM »
Oh, please - the impeachment process is equivalent to grand juries investigating whether an indictment should be brought before a court - and grand juries have no requirement of transparency, nor of allowing defendants to present cases, nor even to inform defendants of the action being taken.

This is why this is a farcical analogy.  It's not that Grand Juries "have no requirement of transparency" its that it's illegal to discuss anything said there.  Leaks from a Grand Jury put people in jail, they are not done by the majority(which is really the prosecutor not the jury) to selectively harm the accused.  A prosecutor or a grand jury acting like the Intelligence Committee would tank their case and generate some potentially serious legal consequences.

The purpose of a Grand Jury is also radically different than what's going on.  It's to authorize the state to use even more powers - the House currently believes its authorized to use any power.

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Show me any significant number of police officers, never mind the 'Fraternal Order of Police', claiming that grand jury secrecy is an affront to due process... 

So this is the famous argument where you claim two dissimilar things are the same, and then call someone out for being concerned about the very large differences?

If the Dems ran this like an actual Grand Jury you wouldn't see the same complaints, but it also wouldn't be politically damaging.  Ergo, we're not seeing a grand jury like process.

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Such sturm und drang over a process that was acceptable when the shoe was on the other foot.

When would that be?  This isn't the process that was ever used before, so what exactly are you talking about?

LetterRip

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #101 on: November 05, 2019, 05:56:05 PM »
Looks like Sondland has had a recovery of some of his selective memory loss,

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I, Gordon Sondland, do hereby swear and affirm as follows:

1. I have reviewed the October 22, 2019, opening statement of Ambassador William Taylor. I have also reviewed the October 31, 2019, opening statement of Tim Morrison. These two opening statements have refreshed my recollection about certain conversations in early September 2019.

2. Ambassador Taylor recalls that I told Mr. Morrison in early September 2019 that the resumption of U.S. aid to Ukraine had become tied to a public statement to be issued by Ukraine agreeing to investigate Burisma. Ambassador Taylor recalls that Mr. Morrison told Ambassador Taylor that I told Mr. Morrison that I had conveyed this message to Mr. Yermak on September 1, 2019, in connection with Vice President Pence’s visit to Warsaw and a meeting with President Zelensky. Mr. Morrison recalls that I said to him in early September that resumption of U.S. aid to Ukraine might be conditioned on a public statement reopening the Burisma investigation.

https://www.axios.com/godron-sondland-kurt-volker-ukraine-testimony-transcript-excerpts-f63971f1-4e17-4fcb-8130-8bc1af29da01.html

So basically he confirms what Taylor and Morrison testified to.  Thank goodness it was only poor recollection and not him perjurying himself to mislead a congressional investigation.

Also apparently Pence had been told of the aid suspension,

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/11/sondland-revises-and-extends-loops-pence-into-ukraine-scandal/

« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 06:03:16 PM by LetterRip »

Seriati

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #102 on: November 05, 2019, 06:00:11 PM »
I think the key part of the phrasing is "....I presumed that the aid suspension had become linked to the proposed anti-corruption statement."  Not told by President Trump, presumed.  As you remember, Taylor also had a heck of a lot of "presumptions" that weren't tied to actual knowledge.

Wayward Son

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #103 on: November 05, 2019, 06:04:16 PM »
So he just "presumed" that the President was asking him to do something unethical and probably illegal, and didn't feel the need to clarify it or perhaps warn the President that maybe it might be bad.

Yep, Trump only hires "the best!"  ::)

DonaldD

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #104 on: November 05, 2019, 10:06:03 PM »
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  Leaks from a Grand Jury put people in jail,   
This is ironic, given how extremely leaky Ken Starr's Grand Jury team was during the Clinton impeachment process.  And no, nobody went to jail over it.
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The purpose of a Grand Jury is also radically different than what's going on.  It's to authorize the state to use even more powers - the House currently believes its authorized to use any power.
Putting aside your unfounded partisan conclusion, this is exactly what the impeachment process is - the bringing of articles of impeachment so that the Senate can bring to bear "even more powers", i.e., to try impeachment and attempt to convict.

TheDeamon

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #105 on: November 06, 2019, 12:38:08 AM »
So he just "presumed" that the President was asking him to do something unethical and probably illegal, and didn't feel the need to clarify it or perhaps warn the President that maybe it might be bad.

Yep, Trump only hires "the best!"  ::)

And just think, this guy worked for every ("recent") previous Administration too. And as he wasn't the whistle-blower, I wonder how many other times he's done much the same thing in response to something "potentially illegal or unethical."

yossarian22c

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #106 on: November 06, 2019, 06:30:21 AM »
Sondland was a republican donor to ambassador, he’s a diplomatic newby. Maybe you were thinking about Volker or Taylor?

Crunch

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #107 on: November 06, 2019, 07:37:50 AM »
Aha, so you trusted NPR to publish the transcript completely and unaltered because it was generated by a corrupt process that fit their nefarious narrative. Whereas a good news organization would avoid the transcript, or cherry pick items out of context to make it more balanced... ???

I trusted NPR to fully participate in the scam, yes. A good news organization would have provided not only the transcript but also the context around the transcript, giving the full story so readers would understand the process being used. You supprt a cherrypicked story to call out a make believe cherry picking, classic.

I can understand why you like this being done the way it is but this kind of dishonest reporting is how we got Trump. It’s a reason we may very wellget him again.


cherrypoptart

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #108 on: November 06, 2019, 09:35:28 AM »
I've been listening to a lot of NPR lately and their coverage is so blatantly biased and one sided that it's absolutely pathetic.

DonaldD

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #109 on: November 06, 2019, 09:54:28 AM »
For context, yossarian posted the link to the transcript, accompanied by the following:
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This is mostly just a link to the transcript of McKinley's testimony.
So, when Crunch dismissed the link out of hand due to his expectation of bias, since he was responding to yossarian's post, he was basically dismissing the transcript.  A transcript which contains questions (and the associated responses) placed by both the majority and minority representatives, of which both parties were allotted the same amount of time for their inquiries.

That is the actual context of the transcript, if Crunch had bothered to read it.  But Crunch did not, instead relying on his partisan expectations, and now decrying that a partisan editorial acceptable to Crunch was not also included.

yossarian22c

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #110 on: November 06, 2019, 10:28:07 AM »
I've been listening to a lot of NPR lately and their coverage is so blatantly biased and one sided that it's absolutely pathetic.

Hey, I get it even house republicans aren't partisan enough for Trump (and his supporters). He needs to get his boys on the intelligence committee.

https://www.npr.org/2019/11/05/776487737/gop-leader-eyes-intel-shake-up-to-boost-president-trumps-defenders

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"If Democrats are going to turn Intel into the impeachment committee, I am going to make adjustments to that committee accordingly, for a short period of time," McCarthy told Politico on Tuesday. A spokesman for McCarthy confirmed his comments to NPR.


Crunch

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #111 on: November 06, 2019, 12:59:02 PM »
For context, yossarian posted the link to the transcript, accompanied by the following:
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This is mostly just a link to the transcript of McKinley's testimony.
So, when Crunch dismissed the link out of hand due to his expectation of bias, since he was responding to yossarian's post, he was basically dismissing the transcript.  A transcript which contains questions (and the associated responses) placed by both the majority and minority representatives, of which both parties were allotted the same amount of time for their inquiries.

That is the actual context of the transcript, if Crunch had bothered to read it.  But Crunch did not, instead relying on his partisan expectations, and now decrying that a partisan editorial acceptable to Crunch was not also included.

You really have to stop making things up. It’s dishonest. You’re being incredibly deceitful.

Fenring

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #112 on: November 06, 2019, 01:04:06 PM »
You really have to stop making things up. It’s dishonest. You’re being incredibly deceitful.

Try to stay focused! I'm not the content police, but I like your posts when they're on-topic and about information, and not so much when they're about the other posters. I can only speak for myself, but I enjoy when you're doing justice to your arguments. These kinds of posts drag you down, man.

yossarian22c

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #113 on: November 06, 2019, 01:08:26 PM »
You really have to stop making things up. It’s dishonest. You’re being incredibly deceitful.

Try to stay focused! I'm not the content police, but I like your posts when they're on-topic and about information, and not so much when they're about the other posters. I can only speak for myself, but I enjoy when you're doing justice to your arguments. These kinds of posts drag you down, man.

Shrug its who he/she has been for the last 15+ years (a couple different screen names). But far right wing, boarder line troll, is the online persona used by Crunch. I don't expect it to change at this point and anyone who posts to encourage otherwise is probably wasting their time.

Fenring

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #114 on: November 06, 2019, 01:22:39 PM »
I don't expect it to change at this point and anyone who posts to encourage otherwise is probably wasting their time.

I don't want to change anyone. But even within the parameters you described there are varying levels of focus, including IMO posts that have legit content. I guess I'm ok with being a cheerleader for good posts.

Crunch

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #115 on: November 06, 2019, 06:41:06 PM »
You really have to stop making things up. It’s dishonest. You’re being incredibly deceitful.

Try to stay focused! I'm not the content police, but I like your posts when they're on-topic and about information, and not so much when they're about the other posters. I can only speak for myself, but I enjoy when you're doing justice to your arguments. These kinds of posts drag you down, man.

I appreciate the feedback, truly. Thanks.

However, nothing that I wrote is incorrect. There was a string of fabrications, outright falsehoods, that he completely made up. Things like that drag this entire forum down. If someone is simply going to make things up, engage in personal attacks on other members, across multiple threads, it should be exposed and made known. Otherwise, what’s the point?

I also am not the content police but shouldn’t there be at least some standard?

Crunch

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #116 on: November 06, 2019, 06:55:49 PM »
You really have to stop making things up. It’s dishonest. You’re being incredibly deceitful.

Try to stay focused! I'm not the content police, but I like your posts when they're on-topic and about information, and not so much when they're about the other posters. I can only speak for myself, but I enjoy when you're doing justice to your arguments. These kinds of posts drag you down, man.

Shrug its who he/she has been for the last 15+ years (a couple different screen names). But far right wing, boarder line troll, is the online persona used by Crunch. I don't expect it to change at this point and anyone who posts to encourage otherwise is probably wasting their time.

Im not entirely sure what you’re laying out here. I was a member many years ago. I left shortly after the Ornery 8 debacle. Not in protest, although it was a factor. Mostly, I just had a lot going on and didn’t have the time to invest in this. One thing I do know is that anyone on the right has always been personally attacked and often held to different standards in this forum  - the ornery 8 fiasco really highlighted that.

IMO, the moderation has improved significantly since then but the poster quality has declined massively. When I started in 2001(?) if you ran a logical fallacy out, everyone called you on it. You had to be logical. Making *censored* up, like we just saw upthread, was really called out by both sides (jedilaw, mv, simply biological, enumclaw Everard, RickyB, come to mind but there were many others). Now, it’s essentially embraced.  I think a form of insanity has taken hold of several of you.

TheDrake

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #117 on: November 07, 2019, 02:35:28 AM »
I wonder if you can spot which of these logical fallacies you are guilty of, Crunch.

https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/academic_writing/logic_in_argumentative_writing/fallacies.html


Crunch

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #118 on: November 07, 2019, 07:17:37 AM »
I’m sure ive done mamy of them at ine time or another. One of the things I originally liked about this forum was being forced to avoid those.

I wish you would do the same rather than embracing them.

DJQuag

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #119 on: November 08, 2019, 08:08:10 PM »
Actually, I did not claim NPR changed the transcript. You just made that up. Why are you making things up like that? The posts are adjacent, it’s super easy to see you’re just, well, being dishonest about what I said.

The last couple of posts from you I’ve seen are completely uncalled for personal attacks on others or just outright, obvious, falsehoods.
To be fair you've earned how people on this board respond to you. I don't blame him.

In the Dobbs sucks off Trump sucks off Dobbs sucks off Trump spectrum, you're pretty much in the middle. But everyone here, Seriati included, knows exactly the persona you put out there (because of course you're just some dude and the Internet inevitably makes almost everyone look worse then they really are) and absolutely no one is surprised by anything you post, even when it's pretty transparent you're just trying to "own the libs." You were exactly the same when you posted as Rafi on the old board.

Crunch

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #120 on: November 09, 2019, 07:57:57 AM »
Actually, I did not claim NPR changed the transcript. You just made that up. Why are you making things up like that? The posts are adjacent, it’s super easy to see you’re just, well, being dishonest about what I said.

The last couple of posts from you I’ve seen are completely uncalled for personal attacks on others or just outright, obvious, falsehoods.
To be fair you've earned how people on this board respond to you. I don't blame him.

The personal attack was not directed at me. I did respond saying it was uncalled, and it is. I also disagree with your assertion that it’s ok to lie.

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In the Dobbs sucks off Trump sucks off Dobbs sucks off Trump spectrum, you're pretty much in the middle. But everyone here, Seriati included, knows exactly the persona you put out there (because of course you're just some dude and the Internet inevitably makes almost everyone look worse then they really are) and absolutely no one is surprised by anything you post, even when it's pretty transparent you're just trying to "own the libs." You were exactly the same when you posted as Rafi on the old board.

Wut?  :o

DJQuag

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #121 on: November 09, 2019, 04:25:48 PM »
Actually, I did not claim NPR changed the transcript. You just made that up. Why are you making things up like that? The posts are adjacent, it’s super easy to see you’re just, well, being dishonest about what I said.

The last couple of posts from you I’ve seen are completely uncalled for personal attacks on others or just outright, obvious, falsehoods.
To be fair you've earned how people on this board respond to you. I don't blame him.

The personal attack was not directed at me. I did respond saying it was uncalled, and it is. I also disagree with your assertion that it’s ok to lie.

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In the Dobbs sucks off Trump sucks off Dobbs sucks off Trump spectrum, you're pretty much in the middle. But everyone here, Seriati included, knows exactly the persona you put out there (because of course you're just some dude and the Internet inevitably makes almost everyone look worse then they really are) and absolutely no one is surprised by anything you post, even when it's pretty transparent you're just trying to "own the libs." You were exactly the same when you posted as Rafi on the old board.

Wut?  :o

Eh, I might be wrong about the Rafi thing, likely even, it was just a guess based upon posting styles.

The part about online personas, what I meant was I really hate yours. What you say, how you post. And yet, if were to meet in a bar or an in law barbeque I'm quite sure you'd be a decent guy and all I'd say to myself would be, "Never, ever bring up religion or politics with this guy."

The Trump Dobbs thing was just me wondering where you fit in that spectrum. You are aware they've just been bouncing compliments off each other the past few days in the best "Dear Leader" type of style.

Even after the Kurdish Betrayal you were desperately looking for any excuse or why it wasn't that, and only after most of the Repugs spoke out against it you half heartedly said "Well if Congress feels that way, let them fix it," instead of choosing to criticise the Dear Leader.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 04:29:39 PM by DJQuag »

Crunch

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #122 on: November 09, 2019, 05:27:33 PM »
For thr Kurd thing, I suppose it could be called a lot of things but I was mostly wondering about the limits. How long we were supposed to support them, if we were supposed to be their permanent military and defend them from every enemy they have in perpetuity. I don’t recall voicing support for it or objecting to it.

My persona is that I won’t condemn every single thing about Trump because he won the election or gives some people a sad. I do think that committing troops to action is something the Congress should do rather than a single person. Given your irrational hatred of Trump, I’d think you would like putting restraints on his power and I did laugh at those that think he’s a lunatic trying to support his unlimited power and their sudden  willingness to conduct unnecessary wars.

I guess I can understand why you'd hate me for that.

DJQuag

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #123 on: November 09, 2019, 07:01:09 PM »
For thr Kurd thing, I suppose it could be called a lot of things but I was mostly wondering about the limits. How long we were supposed to support them, if we were supposed to be their permanent military and defend them from every enemy they have in perpetuity. I don’t recall voicing support for it or objecting to it.

My persona is that I won’t condemn every single thing about Trump because he won the election or gives some people a sad. I do think that committing troops to action is something the Congress should do rather than a single person. Given your irrational hatred of Trump, I’d think you would like putting restraints on his power and I did laugh at those that think he’s a lunatic trying to support his unlimited power and their sudden  willingness to conduct unnecessary wars.

I guess I can understand why you'd hate me for that.

Again, I'm just calling attention to the fact that none of us post here like we'd talk to people in real life, face to face. I'm willing to admit it. I'm a bleeding heart liberal who believes in Scandinavian style socialism but I can't go around slanging that crap in real life with the same sort of fervor or lack of responsibility because I know those people as real people and I can't treat them the same way I treat screen names.

Given that, the KB was about more then executive power. Congress pissed away their war authority all the way back in Vietnam. Plenty of R's took advantage of it.

It was about how Trump went about it. How he tried to defend it in hindsight. The supreme hypocrisy to me was how we supposedly went over there to make it a better place for our type of thinking, and then Trump hamstrings the *only* Muslim ethnicity in the *entire* Middle East that actually believes in things like women's rights and Western values and we just straight up *censored*ed them.

You can believe it or not but if Obama had bent the Kurds over the genocide barrel the same way Trump just did I'd be every bit as pissed.

DJQuag

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #124 on: November 09, 2019, 07:02:58 PM »
But hey, they weren't there in Normandy so...

yossarian22c

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #125 on: January 30, 2020, 01:51:01 PM »
As I think about it, I think the Trump Admin is running "Dark Horse" on this thing with Ukraine and they want the Dems to impeach him.

Because it then goes to the Senate for "a proper trial" and THEY can then call all of those witnesses that the House has been wanting to speak to.

I think the Trump has determined the Democrats aren't going to stop until they find something to "get him" so he's going to let them run this as far as they care to do so. Letting people testify to the Democrats that might reveal this thing to be a nothing-burger doesn't play to that plan, as the Democrats will simply shift to another target to get him on.

But if they bite on this, and take it to the Senate, only for his people to complete exonerate him on national television(because why wouldn't they be televising the Senate Hearings?)....

And if his people won't testify in the Senate? What's your rational then? There's not enough evidence to bother, the president has executive privilege, the senate is going to vote along party lines anyway so why bother with a trial? I'm curious what the reason will be when it gets to the Senate and Trump still isn't cooperating.

Well, his people likely aren't testifying in the Senate and we've gotten down to, "it's okay as long as there is potentially another motive" as the defense. Bolton's leaked text seems pretty bad for the president, still possibly no interest in having him as a witness.

TheDeamon

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #126 on: January 30, 2020, 02:32:48 PM »
It turns into blame McConnel as he doesn't want it to turn into a circus. Trump's been clear he wants witnesses, it is the Republican Senators who'd rather not sit through it.

DonaldD

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #127 on: January 30, 2020, 03:24:32 PM »
Is this how you are asserting that Trump wants witnesses, or does Trump want witnesses in a different way? (The Hill)
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"This morning, one minute before his scheduled deposition was to start, Mr. Mulvaney’s outside counsel informed us that his client had been directed by the White House not to comply with the duly authorized subpoena and asserted 'absolute immunity,' " the official said in a statement.

Democrats said that the refusal to testify will add to their case arguing that the Trump administration sought to obstruct their impeachment inquiry.

“If the White House had evidence to contest those facts, they would allow Mr. Mulvaney to be deposed, as three chiefs of staffs of President Clinton were during his impeachment proceedings,” the official added.

Trump, when asked by reporters Friday why Mulvaney would not appear, said he did not want to “give credibility to a corrupt witch hunt.”

“I’d love to have Mick go up, frankly,” he added.