Author Topic: The Race is On  (Read 11817 times)

Seriati

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The Race is On
« on: October 28, 2019, 04:14:20 PM »
So the race is on:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pelosi-says-house-will-vote-this-week-on-resolution-formalizing-impeachment-procedures

The House moving to have their impeachment investigation vote.  Wonder why?

Could it be the IG report being released on FISA abuse?  Or concerns over Durham's probe into the origins of the Mueller investigation becoming a criminal investigation?

Who's going to get there first, the Dems assertions that Trump is a criminal, or the DOJs bring down of the dirty cops that started the attacks on Trump?

Crunch

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2019, 04:23:33 PM »
It’s kind of weird to do this after they spent all weekend talking about how they won’t be rushed. It was the primary talking point on all new shows when Democrats were asked about impeachment. I wonder if they’re surprised today that it happened so fast.

This’ll be exciting.

TheDrake

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2019, 04:42:59 PM »
So they give Republicans exactly what they've been demanding and you're still not happy about it.

Seriati

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2019, 04:48:51 PM »
Lol, TheDrake, I'm pretty convinced there is no there, there.  That this is 100% political.  In that respect, I'm going to see the timing, if it seems reactive to the DOJ's criminal investigations, as nothing but political convenience.

They could prove me wrong, but they'd need some evidence to do it.  Preferably first hand from a conversation with the President or in writing.  But I'm not adverse to a damning case of circumstantial evidence, just adverse to a case built on wishful interpretations of evidence (for example, seeing evidence of a quid pro quo in Trump's phone call) that the media/DNC hard sell.

TheDeamon

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2019, 05:05:45 PM »
Just read the Article from Fox, laughing at the Democrat's circular logic on this.

Barr investigating potential criminal activities on the part of the Obama Admin having potentially politicized the DOJ is now Barr politicizing the DOJ to do work in line with what Trump wants.

And totally couldn't be a "right minded citizen" trying to depoliticize the entire process in general and is acting out of genuine concern about the Obama Admin having successfully having done so in 2016. Sadly, thanks to Trump, there is no way to do that at present which doesn't look political at this time.

Best to let sleeping dogs lie, right? Can't upset Obama's record of being "scandal free" after all. Never mind all the fishy stuff that did go on.

Crunch

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2019, 10:53:47 PM »
So they give Republicans exactly what they've been demanding and you're still not happy about it.

I’m pretty happy about it. Odds are, like the Russian collusion hoax, this will blow up. There’s a pretty fair chance that it will ensure Trump’s re-election and perhaps even destroy the Democrat party. Of course, anything can happen but so far Trump has been three steps ahead of them and I see no reason that changes now.

TheDeamon

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2019, 11:54:56 PM »
As I think about it, I think the Trump Admin is running "Dark Horse" on this thing with Ukraine and they want the Dems to impeach him.

Because it then goes to the Senate for "a proper trial" and THEY can then call all of those witnesses that the House has been wanting to speak to.

I think the Trump has determined the Democrats aren't going to stop until they find something to "get him" so he's going to let them run this as far as they care to do so. Letting people testify to the Democrats that might reveal this thing to be a nothing-burger doesn't play to that plan, as the Democrats will simply shift to another target to get him on.

But if they bite on this, and take it to the Senate, only for his people to complete exonerate him on national television(because why wouldn't they be televising the Senate Hearings?)....

Crunch

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2019, 07:22:29 AM »
Speaker Pelosi, asked by Alex Moe at NBCNews to comment on the impeachment resolution: “It’s not an impeachment resolution.”

So this is just theater really. House Dems are beginning a conversation about the process of considering the possibility of holding hearings about whether or not to move forward with an investigation into holding impeachment hearings. Roughly.

yossarian22c

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2019, 09:58:13 AM »
As I think about it, I think the Trump Admin is running "Dark Horse" on this thing with Ukraine and they want the Dems to impeach him.

Because it then goes to the Senate for "a proper trial" and THEY can then call all of those witnesses that the House has been wanting to speak to.

I think the Trump has determined the Democrats aren't going to stop until they find something to "get him" so he's going to let them run this as far as they care to do so. Letting people testify to the Democrats that might reveal this thing to be a nothing-burger doesn't play to that plan, as the Democrats will simply shift to another target to get him on.

But if they bite on this, and take it to the Senate, only for his people to complete exonerate him on national television(because why wouldn't they be televising the Senate Hearings?)....

And if his people won't testify in the Senate? What's your rational then? There's not enough evidence to bother, the president has executive privilege, the senate is going to vote along party lines anyway so why bother with a trial? I'm curious what the reason will be when it gets to the Senate and Trump still isn't cooperating.

If Trump is purposely withholding exculpatory evidence then in my view he is willing to harm the country to benefit himself politically.

Also I'm glad the house is doing this behind closed doors. Televised testimony always ends up with each politician giving a 5 minute "speech" posed as a question that the witness has maybe 1 minute to respond to. The fact that they aren't grandstanding all the testimony in public is a sign that they are actually looking for information from the witnesses instead of soundbites for the evening news.

Crunch

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2019, 12:49:16 PM »
If his people won’t testify in the senate? Ah, but what if they do? Ever think of that?  Hypotheticals are just pointless.

It’s also very Orwellian to claim that refusing to participate in a sham like this  is evidence of a willingness to harm them country. The sham itself is the harm. Trump does not have to go along with every whim of Democrats or it’s a tearing down of the country.

The house is doing this behind closed doors so they can control the narrative, not develop witnesses. Have you been paying any attention?  The leaks are constant. Schiff and his ill are on Sunday talk shows non-stop, grandstanding. It’s like you’re in some weird bubble.

Seriati

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2019, 01:11:58 PM »
The House is looking for political damage nothing more or less.  They will put it public if they think it will make him look worse, keep it private and leak if that will look worse.  I don't think they have any intention of moving this to the Senate any time soon.

Instead they will raise the "investigations" up to the level of a trial in the House and drag it out as long as possible.  Ideally, they'd keep shoveling until the point where they think they've won the public debate and then flip it to the Senate.  At that point, the Senate looks partisan if they fail to act, and if it can be timed to put the trial into the election (depending on what the polling looks like, all the better).

I've always thought that this was Pelosi's plan, I think she went too early because her hand was forced, but that won't be a problem if they can keep momentum.  But say, if a DOJ investigation started indicting, convicting and jailing former Democratic admin officials over the exact same matters  as the impeachment is based on (Russia and the Ukraine) that momentum may stall or even reverse.  Hence the need to get the narrative out there first.

You can take your pick whether that's behind the sudden switch to a vote on process, or whether it's the Senate resolution that would have effectively declared the process invalid (it's a big problem if the "court" to which you're taking the case declares it defective) or even the first of the Trump officials petitioning the court to resolve the Dem's ability to subpeona him (which, believe it or not, the Dem's are probably paranoid the courts will in fact decide against them, and almost certainly the issue will go to the SC).  All of which they can address by having a vote, and accepting the minor political cost of looking like they were operating illegitimately before.

If you want to see if this is purely political, look to see if they modify any of the impeachment procedures from the historical version.  Not saying adopting them in full proves it's not political, but modifying them would only be done for political purposes.

Seriati

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2019, 05:09:34 PM »
What fun, we now see the House Resolution  https://www.foxnews.com/politics/read-house-democratic-resolution-formalizing-trump-impeachment-inquiry, which you can see on the link.   For comparison, here's the far shorter and more balanced resolution with respect to Bill Clinton.  https://www.congress.gov/bill/105th-congress/house-resolution/581/text

You may note that while both provide for the committee to be able to overrule the Ranking Member's requests for subpeona, the Clinton one submitted the Chair's requests to the same process (maybe form over substance as one party always controls the committee, but still noticiably different).   And why is that important?  Cause it protects the Dems from ever having to justify someone they call or record a vote on that person - again, designed to protect Dems from their responsibility.

You may also note that the portion on Shiff's committee really diverges from prior process.  Effectively requiring that the minority submit witnesses to Shiff within 72 hours of announcement of a public session with a detailed explanation of the relevance (no corresponding obligation by Shiff's team).  It also allows for Shiff to delegate an unlimited time to professional lawyers that the "committee hired" and while it grants the ranking member the "same" privilege, the committee - to my knowledge - hasn't hired a team for the minority. 

Adam Shiff, and only Adam Shiff, controls making testimoney public.  Hey, no reason to "leak" anymore, they can just openly crop the pieces they want.

They couldn't even risk pretending they were going to be fair.

I like too how this seeks to endorse the existing fake process - of course it does - and keeps a large and now televised role for Shiff who will then refer things to Nadler.  Gee wonder why they want to keep the non-telegenic Nadler on the backburner even though it's his committee that would normally have the responsibility.

Seriously, read the two resolutions and ask yourself if you're proud of the Dems devotion to fair play and due process.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 05:15:45 PM by Seriati »

TheDrake

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2019, 06:15:07 PM »
subpoena operation

Quote
Most House committee rules delegate to the committee chair the power to authorize subpoenas, and many of these rules require the chair to consult or notify the committee’s ranking minority member.

Kind of sounds like they are giving more power to the minority member than would ordinarily exist.

Full accounting of committee rules

Yep, Intelligence committee routinely allows the chair to throw around subpoenas without anybody else involved, except for "consulting" the ranking minority member.

What it does avoid is frivolous objections to every single witness they intend to subpoena, arguing that the process itself is a sham and that no witness can possibly have any useful testimony.

Crunch

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2019, 06:23:39 PM »
We have the call transcript. What witnesses to the call do you need?

Crunch

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2019, 06:35:06 PM »
These kind of witnesses?

Quote
Acting U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Bill Taylor, who provided key testimony to the Democrats' controversial impeachment inquiry last week, led an election observation delegation in Ukraine earlier this year for a George Soros-funded organization that at the time boasted Hunter Biden on its small chairman’s council.

Yeah, those kind. That’s exactly the type of witnesses normal people will appreciate. More of those, please.

Wayward Son

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2019, 06:43:38 PM »
We have the call transcript. What witnesses to the call do you need?

Gods, Crunch, how many times do we have to remind you that it isn't an actual, word-for-word transcript?  ::)

Crunch

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2019, 07:38:01 AM »
Right, Trump and Zelensky are lying, the call transcript is fake, everyone in the whitehouse involved in producing the transcript is in on the conspiracy. Also, we can prove this if we have secret meetings where Republicans are not allowed to question anyone and Schiff coaches the witnesses - if they’re even allowed to know the identity of the witness.

I say let’s go with this. Take it as far as possible, let all of America see it.

Then, let McConnell set the rules for the trial in the senate so Trump can burn it all down. I am 100% on board with this. Truly, this is the ultimate swamp drainer.

Mynnion

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2019, 08:49:43 AM »
Quote
We have the call transcript. What witnesses to the call do you need?

Based on yesterdays hearings there may be some question about the completeness of the transcript.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/vindman-testified-he-tried-to-fill-in-omissions-in-trump-ukraine-transcript

Does anyone know if there is an actual recording of the call?

Beyond the call the actions of Trump and company dealing with the Ukraine and the funding are also relevant in evaluating wrong doing.

Lloyd Perna

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2019, 09:30:01 AM »
Does anyone have a transcript of the testimony?

rightleft22

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2019, 09:42:30 AM »
Watched a interesting interview with S Banning his speculation is that McConnell is going to use the impeachment to reign in Trump.

yossarian22c

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2019, 09:49:07 AM »
Does anyone have a transcript of the testimony?

Transcript is still private/secret. Just reports on the fact that he said words were missing from the white house transcript.


Lloyd Perna

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2019, 10:14:06 AM »
Isn't that convenient.

“I have never in my life seen anything like what happened today, during the testimony of Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman,” said Rep. Devin Nunes, (R-CA) on Fox News’s “Hannity.”

“It was unprecedented,” continued Nunes. “I mean, they’ve been bad at most of these depositions, but to interrupt us continually to coach the witness, to decide… what we’re going to be able to ask the witness.”

“And, to see someone coach a witness, this isn’t the first time that Schiff — Schiff is very good at coaching witnesses.”

Rep. Jim Jordan also supported Nunes statement, and provided more detailed of what went through inside the hearing.

“When we asked [Vindman] who he spoke to after important events in July — Adam Schiff says, ‘no, no, no, we’re not going to let him answer that question,” Jordan said.





TheDrake

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2019, 10:17:43 AM »
Right, Trump and Zelensky are lying, the call transcript is fake, everyone in the whitehouse involved in producing the transcript is in on the conspiracy. Also, we can prove this if we have secret meetings where Republicans are not allowed to question anyone and Schiff coaches the witnesses - if they’re even allowed to know the identity of the witness.

I say let’s go with this. Take it as far as possible, let all of America see it.

Then, let McConnell set the rules for the trial in the senate so Trump can burn it all down. I am 100% on board with this. Truly, this is the ultimate swamp drainer.

Lulz. Republicans can't question anyone? Are you laboring under the misconception that members of the committee have been banned from their own committee?

Wayward Son

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2019, 11:42:16 AM »
Right, Trump and Zelensky are lying, the call transcript is fake, everyone in the whitehouse involved in producing the transcript is in on the conspiracy. Also, we can prove this if we have secret meetings where Republicans are not allowed to question anyone and Schiff coaches the witnesses - if they’re even allowed to know the identity of the witness.

My god, Crunch, was there even a single truthful statement in that screed?  And you like to talk about "fake news."  ;D

No one but you is calling the "transcript" "a fake."  I'm certainly not.  What I was pointing out is that it was not a word-for-word transcript of the conversation, which means that it is not a record of the exact wording and phrasing, and apparently is even missing portions of the call.  So it is not a transcript, and does not provide a complete record of the conversation.  It says so itself in the flag note on the first page.

So, yes, everyone is in on the "conspiracy," because they stated it in black and white on the very first page!  ::)

The meetings are not "secret" because there are Republicans, and their staff, on every single committee, who hear the testimony at the same time as the Democrats on the committees.  And you do realize that according to the rules of the House of Representatives (which were approved by vote in 2015), these hearings are supposed to be held in private?

Quote
House meetings shall be open to the public except when a committee or subcommittee, in open session and with a majority present, "determines by record vote that all or part of the remainder of the meeting on that day shall be in executive session because disclosure of matters to be considered would endanger national security, would compromise sensitive law enforcement information, would tend to defame, degrade, or incriminate any person, or otherwise would violate a law or rule of the House."
(Emphasis mine.)

Does anyone think that there is no tendency of these hearings to incriminate, defame, or degrade anyone? ;)  Would you like to ask President Trump for a second opinion? :)

And remember--these hearings are not a trial.  They are more like a Grand Jury investigation.  Testimony and facts are being uncovered.  Hearsay is allowed.  If there are sufficient facts, they go to the Senate, where the facts are reviewed.  That's where lawyers and cross-examination occurs.  So complaining that the Republicans on the committees may not have as much information or latitude as they would wish is just obfuscation.  They'll have their chance, in the chamber they control.

When you have the facts on your side, you pound the facts.  When you have the law on your side, you pound the law.  When you have neither, you pound the table.  There has been a lot of table-pounding about this lately. :)

Lloyd Perna

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2019, 11:44:52 AM »
If these meetings are supposed to be secret, how are these statements getting out?  Who is releasing them?  Why?

TheDrake

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2019, 01:13:10 PM »
Maybe this is why the rough transcript isn't sufficient.

Quote
Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman testified that one example of his attempts to change the transcript was to include Trump telling Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky there were tapes of Biden, which The New York Times reported occurred where there's an ellipsis in the transcript that was released. The change was not made. The assertion that some portion of the conversation was replaced by an ellipsis contradicts the White House's statement in September that the ellipses in the transcript did not represent missing words or phrases. It also contradicts the President who has insisted the transcript the White House released was an exact depiction of the call, even though the memo itself describes it as rough.
Vindman also said that he would have edited the transcript to specifically show that Zelensky mentioned Burisma -- the company that hired Hunter Biden -- rather than just "the company," according to sources.
"He or she will look into the situation, specifically to the company that you mentioned in this issue," the rough transcript cites Zelensky as saying.
Vindman's testimony that some specific details were left out of the rough transcript adds further insight about how the White House handled the call and Democrats' concerns that the Trump administration engaged in a coverup.

Lloyd Perna

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2019, 03:14:47 PM »
How do we know what Vindman testified?  What is the source?  Why should we believe them?  What else did he testify to that hasn't been leaked?  Why are the transcripts being kept secret?

TheDrake

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2019, 04:34:30 PM »
How do we know that Vindman even exists? Maybe we're all living in the Matrix.

None of the reported testimony even needs to be true to demonstrate why we need someone to testify about the transcript - even if it were just to verify that it is in fact a verbatim unredacted transcript. Except it isn't, because the memo itself describes the transcript as "rough". So without a verbatim transcript, you have to interview people who either heard the call, saw the full transcript, or some other way to know what was actually said.

Lloyd Perna

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2019, 04:52:06 PM »
I agree we need someone to testify about the transcript, maybe even more then one person, but it needs to be out in public.  I don't see why you expect everyone to take at face value a select portion of the secret testimony that has been leaked by Schiff to prop up his narrative.

TheDrake

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2019, 05:26:31 PM »
I'm not taking the testimony at face value. The transcript has always been fishy. And yes, the testimony will eventually be public - I don't reckon they'll just drop the whole thing. Why do you assume Schiff put out the information? How do you know Vindman didn't talk to the press?

If everything were being done publicly, I suspect the Democrats would be accused of staging theatre for public consumption.

Of course we all now know from Fox news that Vindman is a Soviet spy, so it doesn't really matter what he says, does it?

Crunch

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2019, 06:02:36 PM »
Whistleblower identified.

Quote

Federal documents reveal that the 33-year-old Ciaramella, a registered Democrat held over from the Obama White House, previously worked with former Vice President Joe Biden and former CIA Director John Brennan, a vocal critic of Trump who helped initiate the Russia "collusion" investigation of the Trump campaign during the 2016 election.
Further, Ciaramella (pronounced char-a-MEL-ah) left his National Security Council posting in the White House’s West Wing in mid-2017 amid concerns about negative leaks to the media. He has since returned to CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia.

"He was accused of working against Trump and leaking against Trump," said a former NSC official, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence matters.

...

And he worked with a Democratic National Committee operative who dug up dirt on the Trump campaign during the 2016 election, inviting her into the White House for meetings, former White House colleagues said. The operative, Alexandra Chalupa, a Ukrainian-American who supported Hillary Clinton, led an effort to link the Republican campaign to the Russian government. "He knows her. He had her in the White House," said one former co-worker, who requested anonymity to discuss the sensitive matter.

...

Also, Ciaramella huddled for “guidance” with the staff of House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff, including former colleagues also held over from the Obama era whom Schiff’s office had recently recruited from the NSC. (Schiff is the lead prosecutor in the impeachment inquiry.)

It’s exactly what we thought all along. It would be nice to question Ciaramella about how he learned of the of the call and it’s contents. But, that will not be allowed.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 06:04:37 PM by Crunch »

TheDeamon

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2019, 06:12:14 PM »
It’s exactly what we thought all along. It would be nice to question Ciaramella about how he learned of the of the call and it’s contents. But, that will not be allowed.

If it gets to the Senate, all bets are off. As it stands, Ciaramella is probably going to have a lot of investigative attention directed his way regarding media leaks, which isn't protected under Whistle Blower laws.

cherrypoptart

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2019, 10:01:11 PM »
Nailed it.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/impeachment-farce-limps-along-anticlimax-191335469.html

"... A shabby fraud launched by a partisan whistleblower who is acting on hearsay about an innocuous telephone call whose summary, though perhaps not entirely complete, was immediately released to the public cannot go much farther. It has been kept alive by a Star Chamber in which the president is not represented and the Republican questioning and calling of witnesses is done at the behest of the Democratic leadership. It cannot produce a serious offense that the president could actually be accused of committing, and now it is to be sustained by a dubious vote that will only slightly alter its almost totalitarian one-sidedness. This ghastly farce has been presided over by a pathological public liar, Representative Adam Schiff (D., Calif.), who has outdone even his previous fiasco of failing to produce his “conclusive evidence” of the president’s “treason” with Russia. The country will not tolerate seeing its elected leader defamed and smeared by odious little people who would strip him of his elected office...

... Under any scenario, the wheels are coming off this disgraceful Democratic garbage cart in all directions. Impeachment will fizzle ignominiously while the former administration is arraigned on serious charges from the Russian scandal, and the Democrats will wallow in their squalid failure to produce a feasible candidate for the White House. Normalcy, for which the country longs, is not dead; it is reawakening at last..."

TheDeamon

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2019, 11:58:29 PM »
You might appreciate this from the Fraternal Order of Police as well:

https://fop.net/CmsDocument/Doc/0608_001.pdf
from: https://www.fop.net/CmsPage.aspx?id=203
 (Released on the 29th of October)

Quote
One of the most basic rights afforded to American citizens is the right to due process. Due process does not protect the guilty; it is the means by which we guarantee the most fundamental aspect of our nation’s justice system: innocent until proven guilty.

Even in cases where parties do not trust one another, they can and should be able to trust the process.

Sadly, many Members of Congress are undermining that trust in due process by ignoring its fair and universal application. Just as local law enforcement officers are often convicted in the media after being denounced by local elected officials without collecting the facts, these Members are violating due process to score political points.

. . .

It is in vogue in Congress to demand "transparency" in all aspects of governance and they routinely insist on transparency from law enforcement officers and their agencies. Yet they have developed different standards for themselves.

You cannot have selective due process. Without transparency and due process, you place the American concept of innocent until proven guilty in jeopardy.

You cannot have justice without due process. Denying due process is a betrayal of our shared American ideals and a grave disservice to our Republic.

The Fraternal Order of Police exists, in part, to defend these rights, not just for police officers, but for all citizens at every level, from the indigent living on the street to the President living in the White House.

TheDeamon

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2019, 12:11:23 AM »
So the race is on:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pelosi-says-house-will-vote-this-week-on-resolution-formalizing-impeachment-procedures

The House moving to have their impeachment investigation vote.  Wonder why?

Could it be the IG report being released on FISA abuse?  Or concerns over Durham's probe into the origins of the Mueller investigation becoming a criminal investigation?

Who's going to get there first, the Dems assertions that Trump is a criminal, or the DOJs bring down of the dirty cops that started the attacks on Trump?
(October 24th)
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/justice-department-inspector-general-michael-horowitz-says-fisa-report-is-nearing-completion/

This is probably in play more than anything else. There is speculation that findings fromthe IG's report is a large factor in why Barr has recently been more open in regards to Durham's probe which would be a logical next step moving forward from the IG's work.

DonaldD

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2019, 09:32:48 AM »
Quote
One of the most basic rights afforded to American citizens is the right to due process. Due process does not protect the guilty; it is the means by which we guarantee the most fundamental aspect of our nation’s justice system: innocent until proven guilty.
Quote
It has been kept alive by a Star Chamber in which the president is not represented and the Republican questioning and calling of witnesses is done at the behest of the Democratic leadership
Oh, please - the impeachment process is equivalent to grand juries investigating whether an indictment should be brought before a court - and grand juries have no requirement of transparency, nor of allowing defendants to present cases, nor even to inform defendants of the action being taken.  Show me any significant number of police officers, never mind the 'Fraternal Order of Police', claiming that grand jury secrecy is an affront to due process... 

Such sturm und drang over a process that was acceptable when the shoe was on the other foot.

yossarian22c

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2019, 10:26:52 AM »
This is probably in play more than anything else. There is speculation that findings fromthe IG's report is a large factor in why Barr has recently been more open in regards to Durham's probe which would be a logical next step moving forward from the IG's work.

It will be interesting to see what substance there is to this being elevated to a criminal probe. The timing of all of this on both sides seems to linked to be purely coincidence. It will be interesting to see if one or both sides is overplaying their hand in order to try to control the narrative. Or neither side is overplaying their hand and their all a bunch of crooks who need to be locked up.

My bias is towards Barr responding to pressure from Trump to make this a criminal case. It will be interesting to see how much (if any) of the IG report gets released.

TheDeamon

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2019, 12:38:45 PM »
According to the memo he sent last week, which CBS helpfully included in full as part of the article I linked above, most of the IG's report should not be redacted. Sufficiently so that there is no need to write a "unclassified"/"public" version of it.

yossarian22c

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2019, 01:28:50 PM »
According to the memo he sent last week, which CBS helpfully included in full as part of the article I linked above, most of the IG's report should not be redacted. Sufficiently so that there is no need to write a "unclassified"/"public" version of it.

Very correct, but my worry was Barr would block parts of it claiming it contains evidence relevant to the criminal probes. Which if he does we're left with another rorschach test on his motives for doing so. Either he has blocked the release to protect the integrity of the criminal investigation or he blocked the release because there was nothing there worth a criminal investigation and he is manipulating the public narrative  to benefit Trump. Either way everyone takes the same fact and walks away more convinced of their previous views.

Crunch

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2019, 01:38:14 PM »
It’s exactly what we thought all along. It would be nice to question Ciaramella about how he learned of the of the call and it’s contents. But, that will not be allowed.

If it gets to the Senate, all bets are off. As it stands, Ciaramella is probably going to have a lot of investigative attention directed his way regarding media leaks, which isn't protected under Whistle Blower laws.

Yeah, once it gets to the senate, the real *censored* will hit the fan. I suspect Cocaine Mitch will return the favor to Democrats for the kangaroo court in the house and give it back to them in spades.

I’m going to guess that even guys like Schiff will be subpoenaed as will other house democrats and they’ll be grilled by Trump headhunters. It will be the most insane political theatre is American history.

TheDeamon

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2019, 01:40:09 PM »
According to the memo he sent last week, which CBS helpfully included in full as part of the article I linked above, most of the IG's report should not be redacted. Sufficiently so that there is no need to write a "unclassified"/"public" version of it.

Very correct, but my worry was Barr would block parts of it claiming it contains evidence relevant to the criminal probes. Which if he does we're left with another rorschach test on his motives for doing so. Either he has blocked the release to protect the integrity of the criminal investigation or he blocked the release because there was nothing there worth a criminal investigation and he is manipulating the public narrative  to benefit Trump. Either way everyone takes the same fact and walks away more convinced of their previous views.

Or he determined that the material in question, while relevant to the criminal probe, would be unlikely to create problems for the criminal investigation due to the nature of the information in question. IE it's "supporting evidence" rather than the more critical stuff.

Lloyd Perna

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2019, 03:40:17 PM »
So Former NSC official Tim Morrison testified today.  Here are a couple of the highlights.

1. He was on the call between Trump and Zelensky and he said "I want to be clear, I was not concerned that anything illegal was discussed"  He also testified that the transcript “accurately and completely reflects the substance of the call,”

2. “I have no reason to believe the Ukrainians had any knowledge of the [military funding] review until August 28, 2019,” (The Day Schiff tweeted about it)

3. He said Taylor lied mis-remembered about Sondland demanding a public statement from Zelensky committing to a Burisma investigation “My recollection is that Ambassador Sondland’s proposal to [Ukrainian National Security Advisor Andriy] Yermak was that it could be sufficient if the new Ukrainian prosecutor general — not President Zelensky — would commit to pursue the Burisma investigation,”





TheDrake

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #42 on: October 31, 2019, 04:37:33 PM »
So Former NSC official Tim Morrison testified today.  Here are a couple of the highlights.

1. He was on the call between Trump and Zelensky and he said "I want to be clear, I was not concerned that anything illegal was discussed"  He also testified that the transcript “accurately and completely reflects the substance of the call,”

2. “I have no reason to believe the Ukrainians had any knowledge of the [military funding] review until August 28, 2019,” (The Day Schiff tweeted about it)

3. He said Taylor lied mis-remembered about Sondland demanding a public statement from Zelensky committing to a Burisma investigation “My recollection is that Ambassador Sondland’s proposal to [Ukrainian National Security Advisor Andriy] Yermak was that it could be sufficient if the new Ukrainian prosecutor general — not President Zelensky — would commit to pursue the Burisma investigation,”

How do we know what Vindman Morrison testified?  What is the source?  Why should we believe them?  What else did he testify to that hasn't been leaked?  Why are the transcripts being kept secret?

You have to ask yourself, if this is a deep state fabricated witch hunt, why was Schiff letting him say such exculpatory things?

Crunch

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2019, 06:55:20 PM »
Well, Schiff is a moron. Let’s not forget that.

You see, Morrison was supposed to back Schiff up and advance the sham.  This was widely reported and is, in fact, still in heavy rotation on social media. Schiff let him say these things because Schiff got caught with his pants down and didn’t truly know exactly what Morrison was going to say.  In procedural terminology, they would phrase it as, “Schiff *censored*ed up”.

Lloyd Perna

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #44 on: October 31, 2019, 07:05:40 PM »
I'm pretty sure Morrison held a press conference and released his prepared statement.

TheDeamon

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2019, 08:25:31 PM »
Well, Schiff is a moron. Let’s not forget that.

You see, Morrison was supposed to back Schiff up and advance the sham.  This was widely reported and is, in fact, still in heavy rotation on social media. Schiff let him say these things because Schiff got caught with his pants down and didn’t truly know exactly what Morrison was going to say.  In procedural terminology, they would phrase it as, “Schiff *censored*ed up”.

So basically he made the mistake that lawyers are constantly warned about when putting a witness on the stand? "Don't ask a witness a question you don't already know the answer to." And here the Dems were doing so good at shutting down Republican lines of questioning by several reports...

cherrypoptart

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2019, 10:58:53 PM »
Lie of the day:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/10/impeachment-house-trump/601213/?utm_medium=offsite&utm_source=yahoo&utm_campaign=yahoo-non-hosted&yptr=yahoo

"...Democrats tried to insist otherwise. “We are not here in some partisan exercise,” declared Representative Jim McGovern of Massachusetts, the Democratic sponsor of the impeachment resolution...

...Yet when lawmakers gathered in the House chamber this morning, the actual tally turned out to be like so many others in Congress: party-line and partisan, a mere formality. Not a single House Republican voted with Democrats to affirm the impeachment."

Taken out of order in the article but the point is this is totally partisan. It's sets the precedent that if the party that loses the Presidency wins the Congress they can go ahead and impeach the President just to overturn the results of the election. The vast majority of the Democrats in Congress would do exactly that if they could, and they'll try anyway even if they don't have the numbers to succeed.

DonaldD

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2019, 11:33:51 PM »
What's the lie??

cherrypoptart

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2019, 11:44:46 PM »
The lie is that it isn't just some partisan exercise. That's exactly what it is, and that's all it is. Even for the couple of Democrats who voted against it, it was just politics because they run in districts that Trump won. This is just sour grapes from sore losers and is exactly what not accepting the results of an election looks like which is of course deliciously, hilariously ironic because it's coming from the same people who lectured Trump and all of us on the vital importance of accepting the results of the election.

TheDrake

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Re: The Race is On
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2019, 12:24:11 AM »
So if it's partisan, does that mean you think the same thing would be happening to Rubio or Cruz?