Author Topic: The smell test  (Read 1968 times)

TheDrake

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The smell test
« on: November 25, 2019, 04:59:04 PM »
Speaking of investigating someone with little or no evidence.

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I believe Hunter Biden’s association on the Burisma board doesn’t pass the smell test.

No whistleblower, fake or otherwise. No insider confession. No clandestine meeting. No phone calls. No tweets. Just a "this looks bad" and away we go.

Crunch

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2019, 05:39:03 PM »
You’re kidding, right?

Pete at Home

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2019, 05:43:30 PM »
Occam’s Jagged Nose

This spell determines the likelihood of two otherwise equally unlikely propositions through “the smell test” ie which proposition conflicts less with the speaker’s preconceptions and agenda.

DonaldD

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2019, 05:48:35 PM »
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No whistleblower, fake or otherwise. No insider confession. No clandestine meeting. No phone calls. No tweets. Just a "this looks bad" and away we go.
Clearly, Graham was using shorthand ("smell test") to refer to other evidence already in the public domain, with which everybody who is interested is already aware... so what is that evidence?

Seriati

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2019, 07:34:23 PM »
I don't get this one TheDrake.  Are you seriously asserting that Hunter Biden's situation was somehow so obviously above board that it doesn't call for scrutiny?

This isn't even a close situation.  There's not a person on earth who thinks Hunter gets that position if his last name is Johnson.

ScottF

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2019, 08:06:39 PM »
I agree with TheDrake to an extent. Companies have people on their boards all the time who aren't necessarily experts in that industry. They also can put people on their boards specifically *because* of familial ties and/or name recognition. That in and of itself shouldn't be used as the auto-rotten criteria.

The issue with Hunter Biden is that I don't think he has any specific skills or abilities that he brings to the table, so you're left with potential influence as the justification for the BOD seat. That's where things could easily go rotten. Again, there's often nothing wrong with influence in the business world. But if a company discovered that the millions they were paying a BOD member weren't returning any results, say, because his stand-up dad refused to play ball, you'd quickly get that guy off the board and look for other angles.

TheDrake

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2019, 08:28:50 PM »
Everyone agrees that he got the position because of nepotism. We don't normally investigate people for that. There is, however, no evidence that this influenced the papa. We've already gone into that in depth, so I'll avoid repeating myself. This will be very much a fishing expedition, the kind trumpians say they hate.

Pete at Home

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2019, 08:40:53 PM »
I’m interested in what the current Ukrainian regime got from the DNC for its testimony, other than being created by the Obama admin in the first place.  I’d like all the DNC-Russia ties investigated as well as Trump Russia and Trump Ukraine

Fenring

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2019, 08:48:18 PM »
Everyone agrees that he got the position because of nepotism. We don't normally investigate people for that. There is, however, no evidence that this influenced the papa. We've already gone into that in depth, so I'll avoid repeating myself. This will be very much a fishing expedition, the kind trumpians say they hate.

This is the optimistic interpretation - and perfectly plausible. My original concern was that Hunter wasn't just there to do a fake job and get free $$ for it, care of daddy. My suspicion was that Hunter was there very much to do a job, which was to help cement a pro-West agenda in the Ukraine during a time when its allegiance was in jeopardy by having key people in places of importance there. Now Hunter isn't necessarily important because of his personal skills, but being the son of the VP he could stand in as a placeholder in a crunch and follow orders. I guess this interpretation implies he actually *was* capable of carrying out a real task, as opposed to the plain nepotism angle, which suggests that he didn't really do anything and was getting a free lunch. Either is possible, but I find it very suspicious that of all countries in the world the VP should get his son assigned to a corrupt company in a country the U.S. is trying to wrest away from Russia's grip. If he wanted Hunter to have a free cushy job he could have gotten him one anywhere. If it was just about money why do it there?

TheDeamon

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2019, 09:50:32 PM »
Everyone agrees that he got the position because of nepotism. We don't normally investigate people for that. There is, however, no evidence that this influenced the papa. We've already gone into that in depth, so I'll avoid repeating myself. This will be very much a fishing expedition, the kind trumpians say they hate.

Oh, like there is evidence that under no conceivable circumstance, Trump's Administration had no reason for withholding funds for Ukraine beyond the seeking of political bribes?

Pete at Home

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2019, 10:00:42 PM »
Everyone agrees that he got the position because of nepotism. We don't normally investigate people for that. There is, however, no evidence that this influenced the papa. We've already gone into that in depth, so I'll avoid repeating myself. This will be very much a fishing expedition, the kind trumpians say they hate.

Oh, like there is evidence that under no conceivable circumstance, Trump's Administration had no reason for withholding funds for Ukraine beyond the seeking of political bribes?

Holy double negatives, Batman! :D

If Biden *was* doing something improper (eg interfering in the Ukraine’s elections like the Clintons campaigning for the Party of Institutional Revolution (PRI), that would still still not justify bribery or extortion, and yet I think it would take impeachment off the table as the remedy.

TheDeamon

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2019, 10:11:00 PM »
I also think it is entirely possible that Trump was being opportunistic with regards to Ukraine.

In that he turned over release authority to somebody else(not Rudy), and was more than willing to otherwise try to capitalize on the delay while whatever review process it was undergoing was happening.

Wouldn't that be a hoot if they send it to the Senate and Pompeo(or somebody else) gets called as a witness and testifies that he was the one holding up the process pending completion of a review and that Trump sought no input on the timing of its release.

cherrypoptart

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2019, 11:24:55 PM »
In insider trading cases when the family members or friends are the ones who pocket the money it's still illegal. It's odd that the same logic doesn't apply to selling influence in cases like this one with the Bidens.

As for evidence didn't the fired prosecutor publicly assert that he was told he was fired because Joe Biden told them to fire him because he was looking into Burista and Hunter? I'm sure he'd be willing to testify to that under oath in court. That's a lot more than what there is on Trump.

DonaldD

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2019, 06:51:11 AM »
didn't the fired prosecutor publicly assert that he was told he was fired ... because he was looking into Burista and Hunter?
Cherry, it takes just a couple of minutes to find plenty of evidence suggesting Shokin's statement was a self-serving lie. Why do you do this? Why not question things like this that hew too closely to your preferred narrative?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-07/timeline-in-ukraine-probe-casts-doubt-on-giuliani-s-biden-claim

cherrypoptart

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2019, 07:07:36 AM »
I've read all that before. One person says one thing and other people say the opposite. Everyone involved has axes to grind.  The timeline doesn't mean much though. Did he ever investigate Burista? If so and he stopped that doesn't mean Joe Biden wouldn't still want him fired as retaliation. A bunch of people saying contradictory things in public doesn't really prove anything either way. Perhaps it's evidence and if so it's evidence going both ways.

One thing that would be interesting to know is how many prosecutors in how many countries Joe Biden got fired for not doing enough to tackle corruption. Is it the case that the only foreign prosecutor Joe Biden ever got fired just happens to be the one who at one time was investigating his son?

DonaldD

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2019, 07:28:44 AM »
We get it - facts don't matter, and self serving, after-the-fact statements carry the same weight as historical documentation.  That's why people point to Trump telling Sondland "I don't want 'quid pro quo'" after getting caught, and that somehow carries more weight with them than a number of career diplomats and bureaucrats, in sworn testimony, laying out a months-long campaign of, well, attempted quid pro quo.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 07:33:42 AM by DonaldD »

Crunch

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2019, 07:53:40 AM »
Joe Biden confessed to having the prosecutor investigating Hunter’s company fired, Joe bragged about it in an interview. Joe and Hunter have already been caught lying when their stories about how they never talked to each other wasn’t properly coordinated (Hunter was probably too high to keep it straight).

A lot of people inside the Obama administration expressed concern over the appearance of Joe being involved with Ukraine’s justice system and Hunter getting rich off Ukraine businesses under investigation.

Hunter got a job he didn’t qualify for and the people on the board that actually knew him opposed his hiring. They hired him anyway. And, magically, the prosecutor investigating the company got fired by the Obama administration tying foreign aid to the firing. You know, the old “quid pro quo”.

It looks bad, extraordinarily bad. So, the rules you guys wanted are now going to be applied to you. You’re not gonna enjoy it near as much as I will.

DonaldD

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2019, 08:10:30 AM »
Quote
Joe Biden confessed to having the prosecutor investigating Hunter’s company fired, Joe bragged about it in an interview.
"Confessed" is an interesting word - it shows your essential blind spot on this topic, your inability to actually process the facts.  One of which is that Burisma was no longer being investigated during Shokin's term; another of which is that Burisma began to be investigated again following Shokin's ouster... you know, that darned timeline that "doesn't mean much" to cherry, either.

If you simply ignore inconvenient facts, you can convince yourself of just about anything.

Crunch

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2019, 08:17:10 AM »
Right, you go with that.

cherrypoptart

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2019, 08:28:52 AM »
It almost sounds like Joe got Shokin fired specifically because he stopped investigating Hunter.

Crunch

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2019, 08:57:18 AM »
If we’re gonna talk about Hunter, let’s meet him.

Hunter is a drug addict with all the things that go along with it. Arrests, rehab, long benders in strange places, the works. Multiple times. He’s got the monkey on his back but fortunately has a powerful father to keep him from doing time.

Speaking of daddy, Hunter got dad to set him up with a direct commission into the Navy. Special waivers were required since Hunter was well over age (limit is 35, Hunter was 43). But, daddy got the juice so rich kid gets to be an officer. Hunter promptly did what drug addicts do - he fvcked up. Hunter, only one month into being daddy’s little sailor tested positive for cocaine use. Shocker. He says it’s because he bummed a cigarette off a stranger and it must have been laced with cocaine. Seriously, that was his story. Classic drug addict.

Not enough for Hunter, once his brother dies Hunter decides it’s a good time to act on those repressed desires for his brother’s wife and quickly starts banging her. At this point, Hunter graduated from being a simple drug addict to full on sh1tbird, capitalizing on her grief like that. What a piece of work

It is around this time the boys at Burisma, already under investigation, have a brilliant idea: hire Hunter for $50k a month to do ... something. John Kerry’s stepson Chris Heinz, already on the board (how many of you knew that? Kerry’s probably sweating), opposed the hire because he was certain a sh1tbird like Hunter would represent significant reputational risk. Chris worked with Hunter before and knew the deal. Nobody in their right mind would have hired Hunter under these circumstances.

Miraculously, the investigation stops. Only resuming once Hunter’s term on the board ends. Weird, right? A mystery. Just pure coincidence.

Hey, here’s something else:
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An investment firm linked to Hunter Biden received over $130 million in federal bailout loans while his father Joe Biden was vice president and routed profits through a subsidiary in the Cayman Islands, according to federal banking and corporate records reviewed by the Washington Examiner.

$130 million, that’ll buy a lot of cocaine! Purely coincidental, that same firm was the one Hunter co-founded with Chris Heinz. Did you guys know that firm was founded in 2009?  Do you know when it got the $130 million bailout? 2009! Found a company, only a few months later get $130 million from daddy’s administration. Pretty sweet deal. Just, you know, gotta wash that filthy lucre through the Cayman holding company. Totally legit.

But you guys think someone like Hunter, getting all these deals, millions of federal dollars, all while being an obvious out of control drug addict with an OTH discharge, is above reproach. GTFO.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 09:08:50 AM by Crunch »

yossarian22c

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2019, 09:51:51 AM »
Speaking of investigating someone with little or no evidence.

Quote
I believe Hunter Biden’s association on the Burisma board doesn’t pass the smell test.

No whistleblower, fake or otherwise. No insider confession. No clandestine meeting. No phone calls. No tweets. Just a "this looks bad" and away we go.

IMO what he did is corrupt in practice if not illegal. He doesn't get that job without his dad being VP. That doesn't mean that Joe or Hunter did anything illegal it just means that people cutting business deals with children of people in power is always going to look suspect.

Can we also get a list of every business deal, property sold by Trump inc over the last 3 years? I wonder if there are any more properties sold at inflated values to foreign nationals or properties rife with people buying them to launder money.

Crunch

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2019, 09:56:57 AM »
Do you really think that hasn't been done? Come on, they started impeachment proceedings literally 19 minutes after the election. Trump has been investigated a million different ways by now so your whataboutism is pretty thin.

DonaldD

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2019, 10:13:54 AM »
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Can we also get a list of every business deal, property sold by Trump inc over the last 3 years? I wonder if there are any more properties sold at inflated values to foreign nationals or properties rife with people buying them to launder money.
This has literally nothing to do with Burisma, or the specifics of the Biden situation.

I suppose you could bring up any number of other people who had been appointed to boards of directors based on name recognition only, and that doing so is common and rarely if ever worthy of mention, or that Biden's situation is only being brought up because it is convenient, but that's not clearly what you are doing, here.

Crunch

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2019, 11:33:52 AM »
The whole Burisma thing, as many in the Obama administration noted, has a very strong appearance of corruption.  As you say, people who had been appointed to boards of directors based on name recognition only is so is common that it’s rarely if ever worthy of mention.  But a lot of people were mentioning it this time. A lot of Biden’s people were mentioning it. If it’s so above board and common that it’s rarely worth even mentioning, why was there any concern at all? You know why.

I look forward to Joe and Hunter being subpoenaed to discuss Burisma. I’m really looking forward to digging into that $130 million payoff.

TheDrake

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Re: The smell test
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2019, 01:10:11 PM »
Everyone largely agrees that this has the appearance of corruption. The question is about a quid pro quo - did Joe effectively say "hire my son and I'll make that prosecutor go away" or otherwise. No doubt they hired him to help their image, and possibly to improve their leverage with the Ukranian government overall.

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It is around this time the boys at Burisma, already under investigation, have a brilliant idea: hire Hunter for $50k a month to do ... something. John Kerry’s stepson Chris Heinz, already on the board (how many of you knew that? Kerry’s probably sweating), opposed the hire because he was certain a sh1tbird like Hunter would represent significant reputational risk. Chris worked with Hunter before and knew the deal. Nobody in their right mind would have hired Hunter under these circumstances.

The reason we don't know that is because Chris never worked for Burisma. That was a debunked fake news story.

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Chris is a businessman with extensive experience in private equity and venture capital — including pursuing a string of investment and consulting firms with Hunter Biden and Devon Archer, another businessman who was Chris Heinz’s roommate at Yale University. He co-founded Rosemont Seneca Partners, a Washington investment fund, in 2009 with Biden and Archer.

Biden and Archer would later serve on the board of Burisma, but Chris Heinz never did. In fact, he advised Archer against joining the board and, when both he and Hunter didn’t heed the warning, Heinz ended his business relationships with them.

"Chris has never been on the board of any energy company; nor has he ever traveled to or worked in Ukraine," a spokesman for John Kerry told PolitiFact in an email.

Where did it come from?

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The source material of the posts appears to be a viral tweet published Oct. 6 by Jack Murphy, co-founder of conservative news site TrendingPolitics.com.

"Biden's son, Pelosi's son, Romney's son, Kerry’s son," he tweeted. "All are on the board of directors for energy companies doing business in Ukraine… Coincidence? No."