coronavirus

[edgmatt]

Nah, terrible  mis characterization of my position. 

I can't remember if you are one of the members who doesn't want the vaccine because you've already recovered from a COVID infection, in that case, shrug, you have some immunity anyway. Vaccination or proof of past case is really fine with me.

Yep, that's another factor that seems to be ignored.  That's something else that has to be evaluated by the individual and taken into account.

[TheDrake]

Nah, terrible  mis characterization of my position. 

I can't remember if you are one of the members who doesn't want the vaccine because you've already recovered from a COVID infection, in that case, shrug, you have some immunity anyway. Vaccination or proof of past case is really fine with me.

Yep, that's another factor that seems to be ignored.  That's something else that has to be evaluated by the individual and taken into account.

Assuming we accept this, how do we get proof? People who want to skate by on this are going to howl about HIPAA if you ask for their medical record. And claim to be violated by an antibody test. We have already seen those folks are willing to lie about anything related to claim their FREEDOMMMMM!

[edgmatt]

Assuming we accept this, how do we get proof? People who want to skate by on this are going to howl about HIPAA if you ask for their medical record. And claim to be violated by an antibody test. We have already seen those folks are willing to lie about anything related to claim their FREEDOMMMMM!

This whole paragraph is so loaded.  "skate"  "howl"  "claim to be violated".

I have no interest in stepping into a conversation like this one.

[TheDrake]

I'm sorry you don't like my characterizations. They do howl, go watch the videos of people demanding to be given entry without a mask claiming a mysterious undocumented ailment. Claim to be violated, despite allowing their blood to be drawn for dozens of other purposes that somehow aren't a violation.

Skip all that, if you like, but how do we get actual proof- or should we just take people's word for it when they claim they've already had covid?

[cherrypoptart]

Well here we go again. We're going to keep making the same mistakes over and over while expecting a different result.

https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-pandemics-centers-for-disease-control-and-prevention-0be4f20f94f125c511dbca42ae317546

"The Biden administration will significantly loosen federal mask-wearing guidelines to protect against COVID-19 transmission on Friday, according to two people familiar with the matter, meaning most Americans will no longer be advised to wear masks in indoor public settings.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on Friday will announce a change to the metrics..."

-----------------------------------------------

I do like how the article at least makes it clear where this is coming from. It's coming from the Biden administration. That wasn't made as clear the last time this mistake was made although reading between the lines it was still just as clear because none of the science says it's a good idea to do away with indoor masking. It didn't last time, it doesn't this time, and unless we see very significant changes in the way this virus is operating, it probably won't next time either.

So one problem is the Biden administration keeps talking about how it will follow the science but as we see it's doing exactly the opposite; Biden is telling the science where to go. And if you boil it down he's telling the science to go to hell. If this really was the science talking, wouldn't the science be saying the same thing in other countries that are still masking even though they have less covid deaths and hospitalizations than we do? Does American science not speak the same language as foreign science?

This is a purely political decision. Pretending otherwise is just delusional. And that's fine if it's a political decision. Let's all just be honest about it. Tell the truth. The science says that indoor masking is still a very good idea but a large enough number of Americans have different priorities so at the CDC we will stick to our guidelines according to the science and if people decide they don't want to listen then hey, it's a free country. Do what you want but don't say you weren't warned of the consequences. Instead we get the Biden administration telling the CDC what to recommend based on politics instead of the way it should be with the CDC telling the Biden administration and the country its recommendations based on the science.

And just to reiterate, masking was always a state prerogative. State governments should be able to do what they want. Generally, businesses should be able to do what they want too. If a state government says you don't have to mask indoors in some places like restaurants, that's up to them. If it says you don't have to mask anywhere, again that's up to them. If it says you should mask but we won't force you, again it's their call. If state governments want to balance economics with safety and try to find a sustainable equilibrium, there is nothing at all wrong with that. But for the CDC to ignore the science or beat false statements out of it and televise the torture of science on broadcast tv like a terrorist forcing a hostage to read a prepared confession is unprofessional and unethical.

[TheDrake]

We're at the f-it stage, just like the UK. And France. Germany is dropping theirs in March.

I wonder if you think we'd be seeing a better or different outcome under Trump2? It's largely a nothing anyway, I don't see many people here in Texas who have been waiting to hear from Biden when they can take their masks off.

[cherrypoptart]

Covid deaths are near the highest they've ever been in the pandemic. I understand if people want to take off the masks. That's their choice. My only point is that getting tired of the masks and choosing to accept the consequences doesn't change the science about the masks the way the CDC is being ordered by the Biden administration to tell everyone it does.

The CDC is as much as admitting this by at least being honest about the need they're going to have for flexibility when the masks come off and the deaths and hospitalizations surge and the CDC is going to have to come back again, just like the last time, and say we recommend putting the masks back on. We've already been through this and nothing has changed. The part they are being dishonest about is pretending that according to all the science we know all of this is not practically guaranteed. With the new metrics Biden is forcing them to use, the masks will come off and the virus will surge until even according to these new more  lax metrics they will have to come back around again and recommend that the masks go back on. Maybe we could save a lot of pain if they were at least honest about the science but even if not and as a country we choose to accept that pain in exchange for what we think is comfort then at least we could save ourselves the humiliation of watching CDC further ruin its already shaky integrity.

It's totally obvious that all they are doing here is following orders from the White House to give Biden and Democrats cover for another premature mission accomplished fiasco.

[msquared]

while deaths are high, they are below (7 day moving average) the highs of the 1st surge in April 2020, the Jan surge of 2021 or the peak of the fall surge of 2021. They are well down from their most recent highs just 2-3 weeks ago.

[Fenring]

It's totally obvious that all they are doing here is following orders from the White House to give Biden and Democrats cover for another premature mission accomplished fiasco.

More likely they're following the civil reality, and not making pronouncements that will make them look weak and stupid. Shaking your arm at the sky telling people do things they are not going to do anyhow makes them just ignore you going forward.

[TheDrake]

They aren't really near the highest, unless 60% is near. Plus, deaths lag cases, which are down to 10% of the peak last month. I'm not sure how many unicorns are out there in the category of unvaccinated and never infected. There are only four states left with mandates. I'm not happy about the fact that CDC is changing strategy to accept this reality, but I don't think it matters.

[cherrypoptart]

Well here's a CNN headline from yesterday:

Covid-19 is killing more people now than during most of the pandemic. Here's who's still at risk
By Deidre McPhillips, CNN

Updated 1122 GMT (1922 HKT) February 24, 2022

"(CNN)Plummeting Covid-19 case counts across the United States are leading to lifted mask mandates and more conversations about steps toward normalcy -- but more people are dying of the coronavirus now than during most points of the pandemic.

More than 2,000 Covid-19 deaths have been reported in the United States each day for the past month. Average daily deaths are falling, but from a very high point. They dipped just below that mark in recent days, to about 1,900 on Monday; the federal holiday may have delayed reporting.
Before Omicron became the dominant coronavirus strain in the US, there were only about 100 other days when there were more than 2,000 Covid-19 deaths, according to data from Johns Hopkins University.
The only other time that deaths have been this high for this long was during the first winter surge, before vaccines were available. The Omicron wave has also been deadlier for longer than the Delta surge: In September, when Delta was dominant, average daily deaths topped 2,000 for half as long."

---------------------------------------------------------

I understand the political reality.

The closest analogy I can come up with is if the same number of people who are sick and tired of wearing masks get just as vocal about being sick and tired of wearing condoms. That's fine. There's no law I know of that says anyone has to wear a condom.

That wouldn't make it right for the CDC to come out then and change their tune on how condoms help to stop spread diseases and make people safer and to recommend that people don't have to wear condoms unless and until we see a new sudden spike in stds like we saw the last time the CDC said it was okay for people to stop wearing condoms at which time the CDC will recommend putting them on again in certain settings.

[TheDrake]

"during most" is very different from "near the top", but I accept your point. If we anticipated deaths to stay here rather than continuing the trend, it would certainly remain severe.

The highly-anticipated change to the agency's mask guidance leans less heavily on Covid-19 cases as a key metric, instead giving more weight to hospitalizations and local hospital capacity.

Do you disagree with that choice? Do you really think it is inaccurate? I love it, because I've been saying all along that hospitalizations should be the key metric, not deaths and not cases.

The recommendations apply to everyone, not just those who are vaccinated or boosted.

I assume you like this part of the new recommendations.

Despite the change, masks will still be required on federal transportation, such as airplanes and trains, according to the Transportation Security Administration. That mask mandate is scheduled to expire March 18.

I'm guessing that one expires without renewal. So we'll lose our steady diet of maskless trespassers screaming on r/PublicFreakout as they are led off the aircraft by law enforcement, but otherwise just fine.

CDC doesn't recommend condoms for people who aren't having sex, or for people who are in committed relationships. So if you're in a rural town and your 75 neighbors have all had covid during the holidays, are any of them at risk and do they need to wear a mask when they go to church? People in urban areas with high rates are still being advised to wear masks.

[cherrypoptart]

Well we'll just see what happens. It's not like anyone in authority listens to me anyway.

I wonder if after the predictable disaster happens just like it did the last time if Biden will repeat what he said about how nobody in the world saw the COVID-19 delta and omicron variants coming and that both strains caught the entire world by surprise.

https://www.shorenewsnetwork.com/2021/12/24/joe-biden-on-delta-and-omicron-nobody-saw-it-coming/

Does that mean he and the CDC don't see the next variant coming either? The variant they're about to unleash again with masklessness? How many times are they not going to see the same thing coming?

-------------------------------------------------------------

This article lays it all out nicely, the CDC's "muddying of the waters" between science and policy.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00108-4

"Many researchers also say that the CDC has muddied the distinction between science and policy. Data can help officials to formulate policies, but policies are often based on other factors, too, such as keeping children in school and businesses running, says Kenneth Bernard, an epidemiologist and a top biodefence adviser to former presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush. At times, he says, CDC director Rochelle Walensky has failed to make this distinction clear to the public, which undermines trust."

That's all I'm saying. And I'm saying they are doing it again. They should stop muddying the waters. If the administration says it's time to take off the masks, then just say it's because that's what a large enough number of the American people appear to want and stop saying it's about the science when it's purely about politics. Unless maybe it's political science...

[rightleft22]

Can't disagree with that.
Time to stop using "its about the science" when most people don't understand what science is or its method. 
And the CDC gets a failing grade on communication - of often did thier spokes persons look as if they didn't understand that most people don't understand how they parsed data and risk. The role statistics and probably plays in thier analysis and recommendations.  Of course the average Joe has no time to take that amount of information in. Explained in 280 characters or less or its a lie

[LetterRip]

cherry,

I wonder if after the predictable disaster happens just like it did the last time if Biden will repeat what he said about how nobody in the world saw the COVID-19 delta and omicron variants coming and that both strains caught the entire world by surprise.

Delta and Omicron did catch the experts by surprise because both have incredibly novel behavior never before seen in viruses.  Delta had a novel mutation that allowed it to dwell in the nose.  This meant that vaccinated individuals were much more likely capable of spreading the virus, even if they had little risk of it spreading to the rest of their body where vaccine antibodies would quickly eliminate it.

Omicron has an insanely high Ro value and an incredibly low incubation period,

“I've NEVER seen anything like the speed of Omicron,”Dr. Tom Frieden, a former CDC director under President Barack Obama, tweeted Monday night. “It's as infectious as measles spreading in a non-immune population, with a much shorter incubation time therefore much faster doubling time.”

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Is-omicron-as-contagious-as-the-measles-Here-s-16717381.php


Both of these are literally unprecedented in the history of virology, and so indeed nobody in the world foresaw either Delta or Omicron.  There were generic predictions of 'worse' variants.

[cherrypoptart]

Generic predictions of worse variants means that what was predicted to happen, what Biden said nobody predicted, is exactly what happened. Of course nobody predicted the exact nature of the worse variants. That was part of the prediction, that they would be unpredictable.

"Delta and Omicron did catch the experts by surprise because both have incredibly novel behavior never before seen in viruses."

And that is exactly what should give people pause. Are we assuming those are the last incredibly novel behaviors never before seen in viruses? That seems to be the assumption we made with Delta and Omicron and the virus proved our assumption wrong. Why do we keep assuming that? If this virus has more incredibly novel behavior never before seen in viruses, and I do like the way that was put, then what happens when we see that added on after Delta and Omicron? Of course we have no idea what happens which is why prudence would be wise.

[TheDeamon]

They aren't really near the highest, unless 60% is near. Plus, deaths lag cases, which are down to 10% of the peak last month. I'm not sure how many unicorns are out there in the category of unvaccinated and never infected. There are only four states left with mandates. I'm not happy about the fact that CDC is changing strategy to accept this reality, but I don't think it matters.

Besides, I thought the almost entire point of the mask mandate was to limit spread so that the hospitals don't get overwhelmed?

If the case count is dropping, and the hospitals are emptying, why would the mask mandate remain in place? The main reason for the restriction no longer exists, even if the tertiary ones remain.

[cherrypoptart]

I understand I'm in the minority on masks now and that's fine, I can live with that. Well... hopefully.

Even though it was never the stated intention of the masks in so many words, they do more than just keep the hospitals from getting overwhelmed.

They also reduce the chances of more dangerous variants emerging, something that vaccines, at least the vaccines we have now, do not do a good job of by themselves and they may even increase the chances of dangerous variants becoming dominant especially ones like Delta and Omicron that more easily bypass some of the vaccine protection, a fact that is not likely a coincidence.

When you have "real" vaccines that sterilize viruses so they are no longer transmissible such as for polio and smallpox, then masks don't matter. With this one they still do. This assumption that we've seen the worst this virus is capable of is spectacularly dangerous.

And it would appear odd to point out that someone is just a Chicken Little running around in circles screaming that the sky is falling when we just saw it happen with Delta and then Omicron which demonstrated "incredibly novel behavior never before seen in viruses". In a pandemic like this one, that qualifies as a sky falling level event.

[LetterRip]

They also reduce the chances of more dangerous variants emerging, something that vaccines, at least the vaccines we have now, do not do a good job of by themselves and they may even increase the chances of dangerous variants becoming dominant especially ones like Delta and Omicron that more easily bypass some of the vaccine protection, a fact that is not likely a coincidence.

No vaccines don't increase the risk of dangerous variants.  That isn't how evolution works.  Mutation occurs every time a virus reproduces.  Some of those mutations will have less binding affinity for antibodies.  Those mutations with less binding affinity to antibodies are more likely to survive and reproduce.  In a vaccinated individual - the vaccine antibodies drastically reduce the odds of a virus making it to the point of reproduction; and if it makes it to the point of reproduction drastically reduce the total number of virus particles produced.  The more vaccinated people, the less opportunity for the virus to reproduce, the lower the odds of a variant emerging.

Antibodies provide 'selective pressure' as does masking, usage of antimicrobials, social distancing.  Etc.    Poor compliance increases the odds of 'escape'.  For instance masking selects for greater survival on surfaces, higher reproduction rate, longer survival in the air, etc.  Anything that reduces a viruses reproduction means there is a niche for a new variant to fill and thus if a virus mutation occurs that allows it to fill that niche, that variant will have a survival advantage.  If there weren't that selective pressure, then almost any variant of the virus would infect the individual.  The greater the compliance the less opportunities the virus has to reproduce, and the lower the odds of a new 'worse' variant.

The selective pressure from vaccination is the same selective pressure that occurs due to infection since the antibodies you produce to the spike protein post infection.  However, those infected 'ramp up' their number of antibodies, so there is much greater opportunity for viral escape (Infect a million cells, each cell produces say 10,000 virus particles, then the antibodies are produced - now you have 10,000* 1 million (10 billion) possible chances of a virus mutant that escapes the antibody.  Vs a vaccinated individual gets sneezed on - they get say 100,000 virus particles.  So there is only a 100,000 potential variants that can escape vs the 10 billion for the unvaccinated - so for our example the vaccinated reduce the odds of a new escaping variant vs unvaccinated by 100,000 fold. - note these numbers are illustrative, I don't know offhand what the real numbers are).  (Also, the number of variants is overstated, while each virus produced is likely to mutate, there aren't that many novel mutations - so a billion viruses might only have 1000 different variants because so many of the mutations are at the same spots).

When you have "real" vaccines that sterilize viruses so they are no longer transmissible such as for polio and smallpox, then masks don't matter. With this one they still do. This assumption that we've seen the worst this virus is capable of is spectacularly dangerous.

No vaccines have 100% sterilizing immunity.  It is unclear how that belief originated.  Usually about 3% of the population will develop little or no immunity after vaccination regardless of the specific vaccine.  For extremely deadly viruses, that person dies.  For something like COVID-19 that is moderately deadly, that person might die; or they might have an extended infection that incubates new viral variants.  Of course that same 3% if they remained unvaccinated would have a similar result, just more likely to die and probably a greater chance of producing variants.

[cherrypoptart]

If the vaccines aren't leading to vaccine resistant variants, then how is that different from the concern about overuse of antibiotics leading to antibiotic resistant bacteria? Yes, I realize these are viruses and bacteria but it's as simple as Darwin's theory of evolution and survival of the fittest. The strains that are vaccine resistant and antibiotic resistant do emerge randomly but because the rest of them are killed off by the vaccine or antibiotics, the only ones left to reproduce are the resistant ones.

In that way, the vaccines are very similar to antibiotics. They both work against different microbes but being careless about their use leads to resistant strains. In the same way that taking the full course of antibiotics is recommended to keep them from making a comeback before they are knocked out and may lead to resistant strains, using the vaccines when they don't knock the virus out completely gives it the opportunity to mutate and then not using masks gives that vaccine resistant strain the opportunity to jump hosts and continue to spread since the non-resistant strains pretty much got wiped out because of the vaccine.

[TheDrake]

I agree that you shouldn't arbitrarily change your criteria on mask guidance. If you say "here's the metric we should use" you should stand by it, or explain why you're changing it. You want to play it as "cuz Biden said so" which may be true, but it doesn't make the change in guidance irrational.

[msquared]

Well it looks like we are at 75% over 18 fully vaxed and just under 70% over 5 fully vaxed

[TheDrake]

Meanwhile in the world of masks, DeSantis chastises kids wearing masks.

“You do not have to wear those masks. I mean, please take them off,” DeSantis says in the video, which prompts some laughter.

“Honestly, it’s not doing anything,” he continues, pointing his finger at the students. “We’ve got to stop with this covid theater. So if you want to wear it, fine, but this is ridiculous.”

Have at him, Cherry, do your worst!

[cherrypoptart]

Yeah I saw that and cringed.

He claims that the masks weren't doing anything. That's obviously a blatant lie. Sure, they aren't 100% effective. Maybe they aren't even 80% effective. As I've said often but the media including the CDC, at least vocally enough, and especially the Republicans refuse to admit, even a mask that doesn't prevent you from getting covid but does reduce the initial viral dose that infects you is highly likely to be good for you by reducing your chances of getting seriously ill. And it's even better at reducing the initial level of viral infection an infectoid superspreader shares with everyone around them. But in any case, in all cases, masks are somewhat effective, never totally worthless or better than no mask at all, and the better the mask and the better it fits the more effective it is.

I have to wonder how many of the 1700 people dying every day of covid weren't wearing masks when they caught it, and along those lines how many of the infected covid spreaders who gave it to them weren't wearing masks either.

Biden and the CDC aren't much better though. Even as they say they'll be careful not to make the same mistakes they made the last time when they said it was safe for the unvaccinated to take off their masks, they are making the same mistakes again.

You could almost argue that they are making an even worse mistake now by not limiting who can take off their masks to the vaccinated, but a good counter-argument could be made that they never limited it to only the vaccinated taking off their masks in the first place. In any case, vast numbers of people will be removing their masks on the continuing deficient advice of the Republicans first and foremost but now backed up by the CDC and the administration when all of the science says it would be much safer to keep them on.

I called it the last time and I'm calling it again. This is a huge blunder and it's going to make things much worse than they already have to be. It's also providing cover to dangerous people like DeSantis, people like the ones at the WTC telling everyone it was safe to stay in the buildings that were on fire. Our country is still on covid fire and the DeSantis types are saying don't worry about it, just relax and stop over-reacting. I would say that we'll see how that'll work out, but over a thousand deaths a day already tells us.

[Fenring]

Drake, how did you know cherry would respond in agreement?

[cherrypoptart]

"Drake, how did you know cherry would respond in agreement?"

If that was supposed to be funny, it was!

 

[TheDrake]

His behaviour demonstrates more clearly than ever that he's not "pro-freedom" like he claims, but anti-mask. Like most of that crowd - the ones shouting at others to take off their masks, disparaging people who exercise their choice to wear them, throwing people out of their bar or restaurant for wearing them, or giggling about people wearing them in the car when its more convenient and at least a little safer to leave them on than to take them off and put them on at every stop. Or worse, getting to a destination and only then realizing you are maskless.

"Why won't you all just get SICK already? What are you waiting for?"

[cherrypoptart]

I made this observation before but the way you just put that forces me to make it again, and maybe more directly.

Bird Box spoiler so if you haven't seen the movie maybe go and see it.

The people like DeSantis telling everyone to just take off their masks are exactly like the people in Bird Box telling everyone to take off their blindfolds. They are literally insane. Even more so than in the movie because at least in the movie those people really were immune. In real life many of these people aren't immune and are dying of covid as they implore everyone around them to join in.

[TheDrake]

We should let them order covid samples online in the form of tangy citrus vapes, so they can stick it to the libs by showing it is nothing but the flu. Problem with that is how many have just been swamped with disinformation and bizarre peer pressure. And a macho tough identity that equates no mask, no vaccine with their childhood riding bicycles without helmets, regular parental beatings, blah blah blah why the youth of today are worthless and weak, and so are you if you wear a mask.

[msquared]

Well almost 28 days for another 60,000. We hit 960,000 yesterday.  Hopefully that will start slowing down. My guess is we will hit 1 million by mid April.

[yossarian22c]

Omicron just hit China, they're hard core locking down a city of 9,000,000 to try to stop the spread again. We'll see if this works as good as it did with the original. Omicron has a shorter incubation period and is more contagious.

[msquared]

SC upholds that vaccines can be mandated by the CIC.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/supreme-court-sides-navy-challenge-203433041.html

[msquared]

A double blind study of almost 3,500 patients finds Ivermectin did not help in the treatment of Covid.  I mean it makes sense that an anti parasite med would not work against a virus, right. That is just basic science?


https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/study-finds-ivermectin-horse-drug-071103424.html

[TheDrake]

Best backgrounder that I've seen. I always wondered how the whole thing got started. There was reason to believe it could affect viruses, which is why it was tested in lab settings and judged worthy of experimentation. Desperate critical care doctors saw that and said "why not", administering the drug. Some people got better and based on chance, some doctors could correlate better outcomes from their limited amount of data. They advocated for it because it felt like they finally had something positive to try. By the time the wider data sets and studies proved ivermectin ineffective, the true believers had set their minds. And based their reputations on it, especially the ones making wild boasts about prevention.

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19/ivermectin-train-cannot-stop

[TheDrake]

Meanwhile, yet another log has come loose from the antivax raft.

even among the highest risk group, teenage boys, the risk of cardiac conditions was higher after Covid infection than vaccination.

[LetterRip]

msquared,

most drugs target specific biochemical pathways of the pathogen, deny host biochemical pathways to the pathogen, or alter host environment.  Many pathogens - whether parasites, bacteria, or virus - have potentially similar biochemical pathways they utilize, or have similar host environment needs.  So we can't assume that a drug meant to target a parasite, won't also target a relevant pathway for a virus.  That said viruses have the least similar biology to bacteria and parasites, so it is the least likely to have drugs that overlap.

Both the public and doctors tend to 'pigeonhole' drugs based on their most well known usage, but most drugs have an enormous number of potential functions.

[rightleft22]

I'm seeing more and more people I know getting sick, thankfully no one ending up in hospital.  Those that had rapid tests are coming back normal but the symptoms look like corvid.

Wondering if others are noticing this

I suspect that the measures limiting peoples exposure to corvid and so the usual colds and such means our bodies are more susceptible now to everything

[msquared]

Happy Easter everyone. Who knew Trump was only 2 years off with the pandemic being over by Easter.  LIKE A MIRACLE.

[Fenring]

Happy Easter everyone. Who knew Trump was only 2 years off with the pandemic being over by Easter.  LIKE A MIRACLE.

It's over? As far as I know there's a significant 6th (or whatever) wave going on right now. Plus China is presently getting hammered by Omicron. These things seem to reverberate like an annoying wave pool.

But Happy Easter to you too!

[msquared]

Well of course Trump does not care about the rest of the world, so he obviously meant it would be over in the US.

[TheDrake]

Meanwhile, we're number one! Don't get too excited, its the per capita mortality rate from covid.

“Death rates are so high in the States — eye-wateringly high,” said Devi Sridhar, head of the global public health program at the University of Edinburgh in Scotland, who has supported loosening coronavirus rules in parts of Britain. “The United States is lagging.”

Some of the reasons for America’s difficulties are well known. Despite having one of the world’s most powerful arsenals of vaccines, the country has failed to vaccinate as many people as other large, wealthy nations. Crucially, vaccination rates in older people also lag behind certain European nations.

The United States has fallen even further behind in administering booster shots, leaving large numbers of vulnerable people with fading protection as Omicron sweeps across the country.

[cherrypoptart]

Two countries with two very different approaches to handling the Covid pandemic.

China is playing for a zero Covid game whereas in America we have apparently decided on the exact opposite, the infinite Covid adventure.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/judge-throws-out-federal-mask-mandate-for-public-transportation-11650306480

"A federal judge in Florida declared the Biden administration’s Covid-19 mask mandate for public transportation unlawful, throwing out its requirement that travelers in the U.S. wear masks on airplanes, trains, taxis, buses and other forms of mass transit."

While I understand and appreciate the legal argument, this happening is another massive Biden failure because he and his team didn't anticipate it and do something about it in advance. The Democrats control Congress so it shouldn't be that difficult for them to give the CDC the power in needs here and they would probably even get some Republican support too.

One other neither here nor there point to make is that you look at the difference between China and America. We have people saying that it's just like the flu which is interesting when you look at China and how they have been and still are constantly freaking out about Covid with unprecedented massive multi-million population city lockdowns and security forces beating down maskless elderly people in the streets. It's almost as if they know something about Covid that we don't. It might be prudent to listen to their actions.

[TheDrake]

While I understand and appreciate the legal argument, this happening is another massive Biden failure because he and his team didn't anticipate it and do something about it in advance. The Democrats control Congress so it shouldn't be that difficult for them to give the CDC the power in needs here and they would probably even get some Republican support too.

They did the opposite back in March. They voted to end mask mandates in March. In addition to all 50 Republicans, 7 Democrats joined the infectious measure.

What happened: Eight Senate Democrats voted to nullify a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention rule mandating masks be worn on public transportation and in hubs like airports. That's far more Dems than have joined prior efforts to toss mask and vaccine mandates.

Sen. Michael Bennet (Colo.), who's up for reelection
Sen. Catherine Cortez Masto (Nev.), also up for reelection
Sen. Maggie Hassan (N.H.), who's seeking reelection this year
Sen. Mark Kelly (Ariz.), who is also facing voters this year
Sen. Joe Manchin (W.Va.)
Sen. Jacky Rosen (Nev.)
Sen. Kyrsten Sinema (Ariz.)
Sen. Jon Tester (Mont.)

And people wonder why I support progressive primary challengers. I wonder if unanimous efforts to strip the federal government of its power to enact public health measures is enough for cherry to withhold his vote from Republican candidates.

[Mynnion]

Like Cherry I was extremely disappointed with this ruling.  Especially since I spend a lot of time flying.  I also agree that it would have been helpful for the Biden administration to have planned for the possibility and been ready for an immediate stay.

Where we differ is that he seems yet again to give the conservatives a pass (both the group that brought the suit and the Trump appointed judge).  It is the conservatives who made wearing a mask into some kind of torture and an assault on freedom that will traumatize our children and cause PTSD.  Without their constant assault the mandate would never have been brought to court.  Now even if a stay is issued it will cause more confusion and stir things up more than they already are.

[cherrypoptart]

The judge does make a good point though about the law. Just because something like masks is absolutely necessary to keep hundreds of thousands of people from dying and millions from getting sick doesn't necessarily mean the CDC is the governmental entity with the authority to issue a nationwide mandate. There are plenty of things that we need to do to save lives and we don't do them because the authority only exists with Congress, or maybe even an Amendment, and we choose not to. This looks like it's going to be another one of those. Congress has the authority and as was pointed out, they've refused. In fact, they've chosen masklessness. The people, through their representatives, have spoken. True enough, the Republicans are letting me and the nation down, but if I had any hope that the Democrats would save me, they've been a disappointment as well.

The upside is that if the masklessness holds, we'll have the results soon enough about whether or not it was necessary, one way or another. Maybe China really is freaking out over nothing, I mean what do they know about Covid right, and a few months from now we won't be back up to thousands of deaths a day. One might hope that the results we've seen so far would be proof enough for even the skeptical, but as I always say, some people only learn the hard way and others never learn at all. We've had enough of the hard way to teach us the value of masks and yet people persist. Maybe a few hundred thousand more dead Americans will be the final nail in the coffin that gets Congress to do the right thing, "hopefully".

[yossarian22c]

The judge does make a good point though about the law. Just because something like masks is absolutely necessary to keep hundreds of thousands of people from dying and millions from getting sick doesn't necessarily mean the CDC is the governmental entity with the authority to issue a nationwide mandate. There are plenty of things that we need to do to save lives and we don't do them because the authority only exists with Congress, or maybe even an Amendment, and we choose not to. This looks like it's going to be another one of those. Congress has the authority and as was pointed out, they've refused. In fact, they've chosen masklessness. The people, through their representatives, have spoken. True enough, the Republicans are letting me and the nation down, but if I had any hope that the Democrats would save me, they've been a disappointment as well.

The upside is that if the masklessness holds, we'll have the results soon enough about whether or not it was necessary, one way or another. Maybe China really is freaking out over nothing, I mean what do they know about Covid right, and a few months from now we won't be back up to thousands of deaths a day. One might hope that the results we've seen so far would be proof enough for even the skeptical, but as I always say, some people only learn the hard way and others never learn at all. We've had enough of the hard way to teach us the value of masks and yet people persist. Maybe a few hundred thousand more dead Americans will be the final nail in the coffin that gets Congress to do the right thing, "hopefully".

Let's face it. Masks aren't going back on through congress because people like free lunch and the pandemic being over. Don't expect Democrats to take mask stands that lose elections on this issue. At this point vaccinations (and prior infections) keep hospitalizations and new deaths down. Sorry to people unable to be vaccinated, but the general attitude of the vast majority of the public either falls into 1 of 2 camps, the pandemic is overblown or fake; or unvaccinated people are idiots who we don't really care about when they get sick and go to the hospital. Politicization of the issue has killed public goodwill.

[TheDrake]

One of the things China may know is that their vaccines are garbage by comparison to the big 3 distributed in the wealthy nations of the west.

China’s CoronaVac and Sinopharm vaccines account for almost half of the 7.3 billion COVID-19 vaccine doses delivered globally, and have been enormously important in fighting the pandemic, particularly in less wealthy nations.

In mid-2021, the World Health Organization (WHO) approved the shots for emergency use, on the basis of limited clinical-trial data suggesting that CoronaVac was 51% and Sinopharm 79% effective at preventing symptomatic disease. This was on a par with the 63% efficacy reported for the University of Oxford–AstraZeneca’s viral-vector vaccine at the time of its WHO listing, but lower than the 90% and higher efficacies of the mRNA vaccines developed by Pfizer–BioNTech and Moderna.

[cherrypoptart]

That's plausible but I have to wonder if an additional reason might be some of the long term effects of Covid on the body that happen not just to the long haulers but to the people who assume they have recovered completely unscathed including the vaccinated but are actually suffering from the virus in various ways that while medically measurable are not so noticeably felt.

Are you going to notice a long term 1-2% cognitive decline because of a symptomless covid experience because of minute amounts or effects of "residual covid", or a similar decline in heart function? Or reproductive ability for men?

https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/science-and-technology/2022/04/even-mild-covid-19-can-cause-your-brain-to-shrink


"Even mild COVID-19 can cause your brain to shrink

Recent brain imaging shows the disease can cause physical changes equivalent to a decade of ageing and trigger problems with attention and memory. Exactly why is still a mystery."


https://www.hindustantimes.com/lifestyle/health/even-mild-covid-19-may-impair-fertility-in-men-iit-b-study-101649672198576.html

Even mild or moderate COVID-19 illness could change the level of proteins related to male reproductive function that may impair fertility, according to a small study led by researchers at the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) Bombay.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00403-0#:~:text=Massive%20study%20shows%20a%20long,SARS%2DCoV%2D2%20infection.&text=Even%20a%20mild%20case%20of,a%20new%20study1%20shows.

"Heart-disease risk soars after COVID — even with a mild case
Massive study shows a long-term, substantial rise in risk of cardiovascular disease, including heart attack and stroke, after a SARS-CoV-2 infection."


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95565-8

"More than 50 long-term effects of COVID-19: a systematic review and meta-analysis"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Could getting Covid while vaccinated for many people give them the same "mild covid experience" that is looking more and more like it's not so mild after all, or only mild by comparison to much worse alternatives? But it's not mild in the typical sense of pretty much every other cold and flu which for just about everyone who recovers only makes their body permanently stronger. This one isn't acting like that at all. Certainly it's better to be vaccinated, but that may not be the bulletproof armor people are assuming or make it as safe to get all the exposure you want, as they seem to expect, especially with new variants.

QFT: "This virus has more incredibly novel behavior than has ever been seen before in viruses."

I feel kind of like Sarah Connor here.

"Everybody not wearing an N-95 mask is going to have a really bad day. You think you're safe and healthy? You're already infected. Everybody. Him. You. You're infected already! This whole place, everything you see is contaminated! You're the one living in a fracking dream because I know it happens. It happens!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5yInB-X0EA

There's a good argument to be made that with nearly a million deaths it's already happened. I'm confident the mask mandates helped to reduce the numbers and would continue to do so. One thing you have to wonder is how many more deaths we'd have right now if we never had mando-masking on public transportation. With the vaccines available thankfully we'll hopefully not have to find out but this is going to really put the vaccines to the test. If the variants keep going the way they're going and becoming more vaccine evasive and resistant, we're putting on all our eggs in the law of declining virulence basket, which isn't nearly enough of a lock to bet the farm.


https://theconversation.com/will-coronavirus-really-evolve-to-become-less-deadly-153817

"...There are plenty of ancient diseases, such as tuberculosis and gonorrhoea, that are probably just as virulent today as they ever were...

... Plausible but not inevitable

Of course, these counter-examples do not in themselves present evidence that the virulence of SARS-CoV-2 will not decline. Declining virulence is certainly plausible as one of many potential outcomes under the trade-off model.

Conversely, mutations might simultaneously heighten both virulence and transmissibility by increasing viral replication rate..."

[yossarian22c]

The judge does make a good point though about the law. ...

So are masked settings not more sanitary than unmasked settings in your opinion?

[Crunch]

Like Cherry I was extremely disappointed with this ruling.  Especially since I spend a lot of time flying.  I also agree that it would have been helpful for the Biden administration to have planned for the possibility and been ready for an immediate stay.

Where we differ is that he seems yet again to give the conservatives a pass (both the group that brought the suit and the Trump appointed judge).  It is the conservatives who made wearing a mask into some kind of torture and an assault on freedom that will traumatize our children and cause PTSD.  Without their constant assault the mandate would never have been brought to court.  Now even if a stay is issued it will cause more confusion and stir things up more than they already are.

You can still wear a mask if you want. Nobody is forcing you to take off your mask.