coronavirus

[Wayward Son]

I don't know, Fenring.  You're question seems to be similar to asking what our policy should be for a man hanging on to a root over a sheer cliff.  We know that sometime he's going to get tired and let go, so what should our policy be for when that happens?

We know what will happen--he's going to fall and die--so I don't really see why we have to address that inevitability.  I would think it would be more productive in figuring out policies that keep him hanging on until help arrives.

[cherrypoptart]

The policy should be to close the borders like New Zealand and Australia did. Nobody gets in without a quarantine period and testing. We vaccinate as many people as will have it and keep the masking and social distancing in place until the virus dies out here which will happen much more quickly than with our open borders and going maskless. If we'd done this before Biden declared victory with his "mission accomplished" moment we'd be well on our way back to something much closer to normalcy by now.

Then we wait until it burns itself out in the rest of the world, helping them out with vaccine production, quality masks, and recommending that travel be very limited and quarantines put in place for the times it's necessary.

Of course that's not what we're going to do and that's not what anyone's going to do so we're just going to keep suffering.

[Mynnion]

If we are going to close the borders it should be to Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Texas.........  That might make an impact.

[cherrypoptart]

Limiting interstate travel would be a good idea, actually. Not going to do it of course so here we go.

[Fenring]

I don't know, Fenring.  You're question seems to be similar to asking what our policy should be for a man hanging on to a root over a sheer cliff.  We know that sometime he's going to get tired and let go, so what should our policy be for when that happens?

We know what will happen--he's going to fall and die--so I don't really see why we have to address that inevitability.  I would think it would be more productive in figuring out policies that keep him hanging on until help arrives.

I think that's a ridiculous comparison. If you happen to be living in an area where little to nothing has been asked of you then that's fine and dandy, but in areas with lockdowns and other measures, it's not a question if but when people are really at the end of their tether. Even if lockdowns are behind us, merely having to treat others of the human race as pariahs is very stressful for people. Again, if none of this perturbs you then maybe you either never cared in the first place, or aren't doing very much now in the way of safety. My question was pretty basic in terms of how public policy might go medium to long term. The idea is to avoid public burnout, so why you should suppose it's already too late means - what? That you just don't want to discuss it?

[Wayward Son]

Hmm...maybe I was misreading you, but it sounded like you were the one who was positing that burnout was inevitable. 

If that wasn't what you were saying, then we're on the same page: we need to figure out how to prevent burnout.

Because while burnout is a threat, it also seems to me to be falling off the cliff.

There is no accepting that we can't fight this disease and do anything anymore.  Because not fighting means we are accepting that people will die that could have been saved.

[Fenring]

Because while burnout is a threat, it also seems to me to be falling off the cliff.

There is no accepting that we can't fight this disease and do anything anymore.  Because not fighting means we are accepting that people will die that could have been saved.

It's just a matter of deciding cost/benefit of pushing people on each little incremental measure. If something will have a minimum of effect, such as wearing masks in a grocery store, then it may actually not be 'worth it' to institute that rule. Sure, it may yield a non-zero increase in safety, but also costs part of a limited resource - public will to keep in the trenches. So it's not enough IMO to just say "oh well masks will make you safer so everyone should wear them in public." Maybe, maybe not. You've got some amount of leeway to keep asking for things, which gets increased if the threat is much more immediate and sudden. Like, go to war, which is binary and instantaneous "we are NOW at war" and you can get sudden will to support certain measures. But a slow creep toward a problem, or a slow creep through a problem, and what you have to do is measure how sustainable certain measures are over how long. 'Can people do X' is only part of it; the other part is 'for how long', and even 'and what resource dries up when they agree to do it.' Getting them to do X might mean they will resist Y when the time comes, even if Y has a much bigger effect. They'll just see it as "eh, we've done all the other stuff and don't see how one more thing will help. It's enough." Even informed people will think this way, and obviously it's not an entirely rational process. That has to figure into the calculus of what measures are good. Effective in preventing transmission is not enough: it must be good in the combined aggregate. So far the only people daring to make any argument about the greater good are clearly on the side of no masks and no measures. It's a kneejerk response to a similar kneejerk idea of "do anything! do everything!" It's not a good idea to try to do everything, just the best things.

[rightleft22]

I don't know. When I step back and just watch what is happening I see a lot of talk about what should or shouldn't be done but no change in what is becoming the status quo.

Those vaccinated want to get on with things those not vaccinated will likely remain unvaccinated and want to get on with it...  and Corvid will become a another disease some people will die of.
Isn't that what we do. So many things we could do but...

Smoking, drinking, drugs, processed foods, pollution... Wouldn't it be nice if... well as long as you don't ask to much of me. Freedom!
We are not going to change.
By all means keep up the good fight their is still something to be said about that. 
We have so much, so much to be grateful for, few in history have had it so well as we have, but... Freedom. 

The man hanging clinging to the side of the cliff will eventually let go... Freedom!

[Fenring]

Smoking, drinking, drugs, processed foods, pollution... Wouldn't it be nice if... well as long as you don't ask to much of me. Freedom!

You picked a few funny examples here, since a ways back smoking laws changed practically globally, altering how society looks in many places. Smoking in restaurants and office places are now a thing of the past in many places, even including signage not to smoke within a certain distance of public buildings. And for drugs, well this is obviously a watershed moment for pot usage in the U.S. in particular. Not sure why processed foods are on the list. Do you have in mind that the government should be controlling or banning them? Pollution I'm in agreement about, this is an issue which cannot be done at grassroots level and requires government intervention and/or spending on scientific R&D to advance. Certainly corporate behaviors require the strong man to swat them down.

[Wayward Son]

Meanwhile, on the Tucker front:

Tucker Carlson, who is the self-appointed high priest of the anti-vaxxers, despite being vaccinated himself, took to the airwaves to compare mandatory vaccinations to forced sterilization. That's such a strong argument that we think that Carlson's physician really has no option but to sterilize the Fox host, so as to help him make his point. Then, once the procedure is done, the doctor can "remember" that, unlike vaccine mandates: (1) there's no medical or moral basis for mass forced sterilization, and (2) forced sterilization is inherently discriminatory, since a society that forcibly sterilized everyone wouldn't last for very long. In other words, vaccine mandates and forced sterilization aren't all that similar after all. Who knew that Tucker Carlson was capable of making a silly, bad-faith argument like that?

 

[TheDrake]

Meanwhile in Austin, the antivax bunch are hurting other people in a new way.

"In Austin’s hospital region, which includes 11 surrounding counties, the latest number of ICU beds available was six. The Houston region has 42."

So vaccinated, non covid patients may not get the best care possible because of overloaded health facilities. If it's your body your choice, why don't you choose to stay home and accept the consequence of your action, rather than forcing your fellow citizens to do so or have to travel many miles to get care.

[TheDrake]

1,169 people are currently hospitalized in Duval County Florida. In a population of just under one million, that means greater than 1/1000.

[yossarian22c]

Arkansas, among the states hardest-hit by a new wave of coronavirus cases linked to the highly contagious delta variant, says it is down to eight unoccupied ICU beds statewide with which to care for COVID-19 patients.

https://www.npr.org/live-updates/morning-edition-2021-08-10#only-8-icu-beds-remain-in-the-entire-state-of-arkansas-as-delta-variant-cases-spike

But requiring vaccination for public interaction restricts "freedom." 

How about being free from hospitalization, sickness, financial ruin, or death? Why is getting a vaccine with crazy low side effects too much to ask for to have a functioning society? Its something we've required (or volunteered to do) of each other for every previous health crisis where vaccines were available.

[rightleft22]

Smoking, drinking, drugs, processed foods, pollution... Wouldn't it be nice if... well as long as you don't ask to much of me. Freedom!

You picked a few funny examples here, since a ways back smoking laws changed practically globally, altering how society looks in many places. Smoking in restaurants and office places are now a thing of the past in many places, even including signage not to smoke within a certain distance of public buildings. And for drugs, well this is obviously a watershed moment for pot usage in the U.S. in particular. Not sure why processed foods are on the list. Do you have in mind that the government should be controlling or banning them? Pollution I'm in agreement about, this is an issue which cannot be done at grassroots level and requires government intervention and/or spending on scientific R&D to advance. Certainly corporate behaviors require the strong man to swat them down.

You missed the point in each case we go so far and stop with regards to being our brothers keeper.

People are allowed and 'get to' die from smoking, drugs, unhealthy food, poisoning the envioerment.... and now we 'Get To' die from covid.
We can take individual and or group precautions or not, and if we fail to do so and take others down with us, we get to do that as well. 

I'm  saying the die is cast and the line drawn. It has been decided and our opinions on what more or less should be done won't change that line. People are going to smoke, take drugs, eat food that isn't good for them and die. People are going to get Covid and die.

Eventually those that are not directly affected aren't going to care much beyond "thoughts and prayers".  That is how we handle such things

[Wayward Son]

Well, we may finally have a convincing argument to get those anti-vax guys to finally give in.

On the other hand, gentlemen who have not gotten vaccinated got some bad news last week. In the first (but probably not the last) study of its type, a group of researchers at the University of Miami found that—and again, we're trying to keep it PG here—gentlemen who have the COVID vaccine are not especially prone to...equipment malfunctions (despite a popular rumor), but gentlemen who have had the disease definitely are. Given our goal of being family-friendly, as well as the curious racial undertones, we don't think we can run the graphic that was all over Twitter this weekend, but if you want to see it, it's here.* The graphic shows that only 9% of vaccinated men had difficulty achieving lift-off, as it were, while 28% of unvaccinated men had difficulty.

*If you really want to see it, you'll have to go to the link at the website.

I suspect there a quite a few men who would say, "Give me liberty or give me death," but draw the line at their...

[Fenring]

You missed the point in each case we go so far and stop with regards to being our brothers keeper.

I didn't miss the point, rules were literally changed in the cases of smoking and pot that affected how interactions between people happen. In restaurants without smoking you are now no longer going to cause a non-smoker to get lung cancer. In places with legal you are not going to imprison people for doing what everyone does anyhow. This does indeed touch on bettering the public good.

People are allowed and 'get to' die from smoking, drugs, unhealthy food, poisoning the envioerment.... and now we 'Get To' die from covid.

Now you're talking about something completely different from protecting people from harm. In the case of smoking historically, there was risk to oneself, but maybe more importantly to those around the smoker. Now the latter problem has been dealt with to an extent. But if what you're talking about is banning people doing things that you don't like them doing for their own good, you're talking about something more than being your bother's keeper (i.e. looking out for his well-being); you're talking about making his personal decisions for him. So whether it's smoking, drugs, alcohol, or opening oneself up to infection, you're talking about taking steps to take away the decision from the individual. What I'm still not sure of is why smoking, drugs, the environment, and unhealthy food are in the same category for you as spreading a deadly virus. If someone eats garbage food, they are not infecting me with something that can kill me; although granted, they do indirectly suck up public resources and create problems in other ways that DO affect society. But any lack of personal virtue affects everyone, so if one is to respect free will then there will always be bad decision making that you have to accept from others. That does not have to include spreading disease, or polluting the environment. Those two really don't fit into the same grouping as the others.

[Wayward Son]

And now Texas Governor Abbot asks for out-of-state help to handle the latest Covid-19 spike. 

[msquared]

Maybe Florida can send him some help.

[cherrypoptart]

Maybe some governors from Democrat states can all chip him to send him some quality masks.

[TheDrake]

All of those other cases are taxed in varying degrees, recognizing the overall cost to society. Smoking, alcohol, and unhealthy food. Maybe we need a Vax tax or a mask tax.

Also, with smoking, the increased risk of Healthcare costs is passed on in higher premiums. Perhaps covid should be treated the same way. Why should my premiums go up because a bunch of idiots on my plan are unvaxxed and going to events?

[TheDrake]

200 children are admitted to a hospital every day due to covid. Half of those are under 2 years old. But yeah, let's worry about the theoretical effects of having them wear masks in school.

[Fenring]

200 children are admitted to a hospital every day due to covid. Half of those are under 2 years old. But yeah, let's worry about the theoretical effects of having them wear masks in school.

Well, yeah, you should worry. Just the fact of them wearing a germ factory against their face all day is not just theoretical, but pretty obvious. Put on a disposable mask for a few hours, maybe sweat in it some, and then smell it. You won't be happy 

[Wayward Son]

FiveThirtyEight has a nice article addressing some general concerns about the Covid-19 vaccine that might make people hesitate to get it.  They are:

“The vaccine hasn’t been around long enough for me to know it’s safe.”

“I can still get COVID-19 after getting vaccinated, so there’s no point in getting the shot.”

“Vaccinated people can still spread the virus, so it doesn’t make a difference to public health if I’m unvaccinated.”

“The vaccines haven’t been fully approved by the FDA.”

“I already had COVID-19, so I’m immune and don’t need the vaccine.”

“I heard the vaccine can cause infertility.”

A good reference for those who might want it.

[Wayward Son]

200 children are admitted to a hospital every day due to covid. Half of those are under 2 years old. But yeah, let's worry about the theoretical effects of having them wear masks in school.

Well, yeah, you should worry. Just the fact of them wearing a germ factory against their face all day is not just theoretical, but pretty obvious. Put on a disposable mask for a few hours, maybe sweat in it some, and then smell it. You won't be happy 

Well, hopefully the germs on the inside of the mask will only be their own, not everyone else's.

Has anyone done a study to see if people wearing masks are more susceptible to other diseases, and if so, how much so?

[yossarian22c]

...
Has anyone done a study to see if people wearing masks are more susceptible to other diseases, and if so, how much so?

Based on the cratering of Flu related illnesses last year I think its pretty safe to say that mask wearing curtails other diseases as well.

[msquared]

Not just flu but colds and other URI were down dramatically in 2020 and the first half of 2021

[Fenring]

...
Has anyone done a study to see if people wearing masks are more susceptible to other diseases, and if so, how much so?

Based on the cratering of Flu related illnesses last year I think its pretty safe to say that mask wearing curtails other diseases as well.

Sure, between people. But I was talking about a person's own germs festering on the inside of the mask. After a day of wearing one it's really gross inside, and that's if every parent diligently changes the mask every day for the child. We should probably assume this is not universally going to be the case, just as a default (and it doesn't matter who's to blame for it, it's a predictable result).

And then of course there's the issue of the constant repositioning of the mask, scratching, and other use of the hands, effectively putting other contaminants not only onto the face (already a discouraged behavior) but now stuck to the face all day.

[LetterRip]

Sure, between people. But I was talking about a person's own germs festering on the inside of the mask. After a day of wearing one it's really gross inside, and that's if every parent diligently changes the mask every day for the child.

Bacteria breathed out don't have any carbon source, so they aren't doing any multiplying to speak of.  The breathe moisture is enough to keep them from desiccating but once the mask is removed the moisture evaporates and they will die reasonably fast.  Since they can't really multiply due a lack of carbon, they are perfectly harmless and not particularly gross.

If you are worried about gross - little kids water bottles - filled with backwash provides plenty of carbon and a nice moist environment.

And then of course there's the issue of the constant repositioning of the mask, scratching, and other use of the hands, effectively putting other contaminants not only onto the face (already a discouraged behavior) but now stuck to the face all day.

The reduction in nose picking probably vastly outweighs any other considerations.

[Fenring]

The reduction in nose picking probably vastly outweighs any other considerations.

Could be!

[msquared]

So Rand Paul, loud voice against masking and vaccines, bought stock in  Feb 2020, in the  company that makes Remdesivir.  Was supposed to disclose that purchase with in 45 days. Just disclosed it 16 months after it happend.  Just a month before the pandemic really started.  I am sure he had no inside information about the comming pandemic.  Just a good business deal that he kept secrect, illegally, for 16 months.  Move along, nothing to see here.

[Fenring]

So Rand Paul, loud voice against masking and vaccines, bought stock in  Feb 2020, in the  company that makes Remdesivir.  Was supposed to disclose that purchase with in 45 days.

Just to know, why does he have to disclose that? It is specifically for any investment that could present a conflict of interest for his office?

[msquared]

It is insider trading. He knew info before the general public and it looks like he made a stock purchase in a company that would benefit from the pandemic.

Right now it is not so much that he did it as that he did not report it for 16 months, vs the 45 days required by law.

[Fenring]

It is insider trading. He knew info before the general public and it looks like he made a stock purchase in a company that would benefit from the pandemic.

Is this currently an established fact, or your opinion? i.e. is it clear that his knowledge of the upcoming pandemic came from sources related to or inside that particular company, allowing him to know something not available to the general public because of his office? Or was this information theoretically determinable by a regular citizen doing private research of the subject? Because as of Feb 2020 I personally knew very well about the pandemic and its scope in China since I was in regular contact with people working there. So I'd just like to know how it's clear that this is insider trading, specifically. From what I read when I Googled it just now, it seems he did have to submit a record of that transaction, but failure to do so doesn't seem to imply it was insider trading (a crime), rather than just a breach of Congressional protocols (a procedural violation).

As a side point, this feels to me like an argument going nowhere, because they never actually made money on that investment, and it wasn't even a huge investment. I don't see a reasonable connection between Senator Paul's stance on masks and so forth and his prior investment there. It sounded like you were implying that his positions on covid-19 are financially corrupt and self-serving, which at present I do not see in evidence.

[msquared]

ACB lets stand Indiana University's vaccine mandate.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/m/baf79080-9c15-39de-abd5-8c3592fccd7c/supreme-court-justice-won%E2%80%99t.html

To all the people fighting this, especially once the full approval is given, vaccine mandates are settled law.

[msquared]

Trump will not promote the vaccine becuase it might help Biden and also to not piss off his base that he has been lying to.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-ignoring-attempts-him-run-101904725.html


Another sign that Trump does not care about his base but only about himself.

If Biden came and asked for help my guess is Trump would say no and then promote to his followers that Biden was weak enough to ask for help.

[msquared]

Ok so yesterday we passed 70% over 12 with at least 1 shot. We should soon hit 60% of total population with at least 1 shot and 60% of over 12 with both shots.

[TheDrake]

Joel Valdez isn’t in the hospital for covid-19, but he’s feeling its effect.

For 10 days, Valdez has been in a hospital bed at Ben Taub Hospital in Houston awaiting surgery after he was shot six times outside a grocery store as an unlucky bystander to a domestic dispute.

“Having broken bones and bullets in me for over a week now, it’s a little frustrating,” Valdez told KRIV over the weekend.

But you know, the people clogging the ICU are probably just people who had traffic accidents and nefarious doctors are calling them covid patients.

[msquared]

Ok this is something I have been wondering about.  I have had Covid and had both shots. So it seems I am in pretty good position.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/fully-vaccinated-people-good-protection-113231747.html

[TheDrake]

Customers dance inside The Hangout, a popular restaurant in Gulf Shores, Ala., on Thursday, Aug. 12, 2021. Alabama's coastal counties lead the state in new COVID-19 cases, and some events have been canceled in Florida and Louisiana because of the latest surge. Health officials believe the spike is due to a combination of some of the nation’s lowest vaccination rates, unabated tourism, a disregard for basic health precautions and the region’s carefree lifestyle.

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-08-19/gulf-coasts-beloved-redneck-riviera-now-a-virus-hotspot

[msquared]

It seems like those states are taking an alternate path to herd immunity.

[TheDrake]

Really gives new meaning to the phrase boogie til you drop.

[TheDrake]

Meanwhile an infant member of my friend's family who was getting surgery was infected by his own surgeon. He is now on a ventilator in the NICU.

That's not only on the negligent doctor and hospital, but also the person who gave it to him, and the person who gave it to them, and the governor blocking mask mandate, and the dick heads claiming baselessly that vaccine will make you sterile.

[Fenring]

Meanwhile an infant member of my friend's family who was getting surgery was infected by his own surgeon. He is now on a ventilator in the NICU.

This is maybe tangential to the sad story, but is it actually determinable that the doctor infected the infant? By that I mean, is there now a clear ground to sue the doctor and the hospital for malpractice, or even have a proceeding for criminal negligence?

[msquared]

That is why I did not hold anyone in particular repsonsible for my Covid.  I most likely got it from work (another co worker  was around some was diagnosed a week before I go it).  Of course I know my wife got it from me becuase she almost never left the house at the time we got Covid.  I do feel good that the other two people who work "closely" with me, did not come down with it.

[TheDrake]

Meanwhile an infant member of my friend's family who was getting surgery was infected by his own surgeon. He is now on a ventilator in the NICU.

This is maybe tangential to the sad story, but is it actually determinable that the doctor infected the infant? By that I mean, is there now a clear ground to sue the doctor and the hospital for malpractice, or even have a proceeding for criminal negligence?

Hard to know with absolute certainty. We know the doc was positive, the family seems to know that he was unvaccinated, and he definitely didn't take a test. Nobody else in contact with the infant is positive from what I understand, and the baby has never been out of the hospital since being born.

[Fenring]

Hard to know with absolute certainty. We know the doc was positive, the family seems to know that he was unvaccinated, and he definitely didn't take a test. Nobody else in contact with the infant is positive from what I understand, and the baby has never been out of the hospital since being born.

I would be really curious to see if the deductive reasoning approach would stand up in court (I sort of hope it would). In other words, "it couldn't have reasonably been anyone else, so it was him. And he didn't take due precautions that he could have" (which is different from those he was mandated to take).

[TheDrake]

Unvaccinated covid patients are straining hospitals like mine, where I had to turn a cancer patient away

This was an emergency, but I had no resources to help. When I started my oncology practice, and even before I became a physician, I intended to honor the principle my grandfather had set when he began practicing in the 1950s — one that our family had upheld over six decades of caring for people with cancer: Never turn away a patient, regardless of their ability to pay or other circumstances.

But I had no choice. For the first time in my career, I had to say no.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/08/21/how-unvaccinated-pandemic-threaten-everyones-health/?utm_campaign=wp_main&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook

Fear of rare and hypothetical vaccine concerns means this cancer patient now has reduced chances of survival. Too bad he can't sue the unvaccinated people who exhausted health resources.

[msquared]

Trump tried to give the vaccines a boost at his Alabama rally and his followers booed him. So he quickly changed his tune.  Not surprising.

[TheDrake]

Trump tried to give the vaccines a boost at his Alabama rally and his followers booed him. So he quickly changed his tune.  Not surprising.

Only Trump would hold an unmasked, unvaccinated super spreader rally in a hotspot where hospitals are already overwhelmed.

[msquared]

The Pfizer shot got full approval this morning.  Do you think that will actually change anyones minds?  I hope so. It will allow more groups and companies to make the vaccine a requirement.