Author Topic: coronavirus  (Read 795787 times)

Tom

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4600 on: January 13, 2023, 09:25:28 AM »
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If the anti-vax people are right then we should know within the year. This isn't going to be one of those proving a negative cases. If they are right it will be more like The Happening and there will be bodies all over the place.
We should actually know already. That we don't strongly suggests they are wrong, or that widespread, concerted attempts are being actively made to suppress that knowledge. Given the number of ethical people I know working in epidemiology, I am disinclined to believe the latter.

msquared

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4601 on: January 13, 2023, 09:33:03 AM »
WhyTom? We know that every health care worker who supports vaccines is in the pay of Big Pharma.

Tom

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4602 on: January 13, 2023, 09:36:10 AM »
On the topic of Big Pharma: I really wish that everyone who contemptuously uses that phrase, regardless of their political affiliation, were leaning on their representatives in Congress to prevent Pfizer and Moderna, after largely developing their COVID vaccines using public funds, from jacking up the price as soon as the feds announced their intention to stop paying for the doses. Surely this is something on which every single person who thinks "Big Pharma" is a problem can agree, right?

Fenring

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4603 on: January 13, 2023, 01:26:24 PM »
Surely this is something on which every single person who thinks "Big Pharma" is a problem can agree, right?

Yes, but the problem of public resources being used to leverage private profits is unfortunately quite rampant. It's not just Wall Street where losses are socialized but profits are privatized. Corporate welfare exists in other industries as well, with everything ranging from price controls to direct government funding and government partnerships. It seems that public outcry occurs in very obvious cases of extortion or excess, famously seen recently with insulin, but I think most of this passes under the radar.

TheDrake

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4604 on: January 13, 2023, 05:37:56 PM »
A Republican: We need to reign in big pharma!
Democrats: single player healthcare?
GOP: not that
Democrats: price controls
GOP: not that
Democrats: expand Medicare
GOP: STOP Medicare from negotiating prices
Democrats: so what do you want to do
GOP: weaken the FDA so they can sell more drugs
Democrats: what? Is there anything else?
GOP: make vaccines more expensive
A Republican: are you guys going to do anything about my prescription prices?
Democrats: well, we will if you elect us
A Republican: forget it, socialism is evil, long live capitalism!

edgmatt

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4605 on: January 16, 2023, 08:08:46 PM »
Twitter Files: Big Pharma Pushed Social Media Vax Policy

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Early in the pandemic, a push was made to make sure all people would be able to get vaccinated, so an international partnership was established to share ideas, technology and new medicines, Fang noted.

"But global drug giants saw the crisis as an opportunity for unprecedented profit," he writes. "Behind closed doors, pharma launched a massive lobbying blitz to crush any effort to share patents/IP for new covid-related medicine, including therapeutics and vaccines."

BIO, the lobbying group for biopharma, including Moderna and Pfizer, wrote to the Biden administration, demanding the United States place sanctions on any country that tried to violate its patent and make generic low-cost COVID medicines or vaccines.

edgmatt

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4606 on: January 16, 2023, 08:13:47 PM »
Under White House Pressure, Facebook Censored Accurate Covid Vaccine Information

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Under pressure from the White House, Facebook censored "often-true content” that a company executive said in the spring of 2021 "does not contain actionable misinformation" but was "discouraging vaccines." 

The email shows Facebook responding defensively to the White House’s then-covid advisor, Andy Slavitt. “This often-true content,” wrote Facebook, “which we allow at the post level because experts have advised us that it is important for people to be able to discuss both their personal experiences and concerns about the vaccine, but it can be framed as sensation[al], alarmist, or shocking.”

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4607 on: February 26, 2023, 03:35:02 PM »
https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-origin-china-lab-leak-807b7b0a

As usual if it's done under a Democrat administration it's no longer racist even if it's the same thing. They say they have new intelligence so that should by abrogation make this latest assessment a bit heftier. And apparently the FBI concluded the same thing but for different reasons. More likely that not a lab leak.

In other news, SNL and Woody throw some love to some of the conservatives and conspiracy theorists:

“Okay, so the movie goes like this: The biggest drug cartels in the world get together and buy up all the media and all the politicians and force all the people in the world to stay locked in their homes,” he said. “And people can only come out if they take the cartel’s drugs and keep taking them over and over.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_5PFcTiUg0

My extra somewhat anti-conservative addition to that that which I mentioned before is that Biden goes the extra step to push the vaccines by lying about how it's safe to take off the masks now because the vaccines will stop infection and spread thereby exposing to a lot of extra risk those who would rather just keep masking since the vaccines stop neither infection nor spread and the masks work best as source control so now all the superspreaders are masklessly giving it to everyone including people still wearing masks which was the birth of Biden's Delta baby and his culling of hundreds of thousands of Americans.

Biden is getting us used to high everything. High crime. High prices. And high covid deaths. It's the new normal. And the answering refrain is always the same, "Hey stop complaining since it's been worse. It's good enough for government work."

LetterRip

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4608 on: February 26, 2023, 03:51:59 PM »
Biden administration asked for the opinion of the national labs, 4 concluded the most likely natural source, DoE concluded with low confidence that it might be a lab leak.

There is no new information suggesting that it was a lab leak, and the DoE is the agency with the least applicable expertise to make such a determination.

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4609 on: February 26, 2023, 04:03:04 PM »
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/energy-department-low-confidence-covid-lab-leak-1234687031/


The Wall Street Journal first broke the news on Sunday, reporting “fresh intelligence” as the reason the DOE’s report endorsed the lab leak theory. In a prior report from 2021, DOE said it was unsure where the virus began. Department officials who spoke to the Journal and The New York Times declined to elaborate on what new intelligence spurred this decision. According to the Times, the DOE gathers its intelligence mostly from “the network of national laboratories it oversees, rather than more traditional forms of intelligence.”

--------------------------------------


So this article says new intelligence.

For some reason I could read the WSJ article when I first clicked on it but now I get a paywall, but it said something like the DOE runs biolabs like the Wuhan Lab so that gives them some extra expertise and credibility.

Most likely we'll never know where it really originated because China did not cooperate fully and hid a lot of information. The main point is that even saying it was a possibility used to be not only absurd but outright racist. Now... not so much.

Wayward Son

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4610 on: February 26, 2023, 06:22:16 PM »
Speaking of Covid-19 and conspiracy theories, Florida Republicans want to ban the Covid-19 vaccince.

Not just allow people not to get it.  Not to make sure those who don't get it don't get punished for it.  No, they want to make sure you cannot protect yourself from the virus, because "we have foreign non-governmental entities that are unleashing biological weapons on the American people."  ???

Cherry, in the past you've strongly criticized President Biden because he has not sufficiently called for Americans to use masks to prevent the spread of Covid-19.  What do you have to say about this? :D

msquared

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4611 on: February 26, 2023, 06:35:06 PM »
State reps in Idaho want to ban all mRNA vaccines.

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4612 on: February 26, 2023, 08:05:07 PM »
I hope and think the covid vaccines have done a lot more good than harm, like millions of times more good than harm, but I didn't think they should have been mandated. I agreed with the mask mandates instead. That's not putting anything in your body and when done properly helps protect people. We've seen studies now about how the mask mandates did nothing but when you count wearing a mask until you sit down to eat in a crowded restaurant and then taking it off while you eat and talk loudly, then of course it's not going to work. I liked the seventh season of Doctor X and their masking approach. Now that's taking it seriously. For one thing, when you are eating, they just lift their mask briefly to take a bite and then put it back to talk.

For banning the vaccines, while I don't agree with it, it does seem like a reaction to the mandates. If the government can mandate a vaccine like that then maybe the only way to prevent someone from forcing you to get it while letting you keep your job and freedom is to ban it first.

TheDrake

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4613 on: February 27, 2023, 08:55:06 AM »
If you ask the anti-maskers it is exactly the same issue of freedom. What if someone bans you from your job for not masking? YOU may see it as less invasive and more acceptable, but once you allow the concept that your freedom is more important than your potential to infect others, I don't see why it wouldn't apply. Just look at the people claiming that they were getting brain damage from masking. Anti-maskers in Florida did exactly what you're suggesting was the "only option" - ban mask mandates. In fact the equivalent would be banning mask wearing outright even when it is voluntary.

NobleHunter

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4614 on: February 27, 2023, 09:00:50 AM »
Vaccines have a lot more evidence about their effectiveness, too. Though it's difficult to collect solid data about masks.

LetterRip

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4615 on: February 27, 2023, 10:03:51 AM »
The DOE runs energy related labs, here is the list,

https://www.energy.gov/science/office-science-national-laboratories

Here is the capabilities they suggested might be useful for the pandemic,

https://science.osti.gov/-/media/nvbl/pdf/DOE_Laboratory_Capabilities.pdf

Essentially computation (computational biology, modeling of dispersion) and material science (They founded the 'National Virtual Biology Lab' which basically ran protein interaction sims).  Absolutely no core viral expertise at all.  It would be essentially impossible for them to have any relevant 'intelligence'.  They completely lack relevant knowledge and expertise to develop such.

Here is the NVBL website,

https://science.osti.gov/nvbl
« Last Edit: February 27, 2023, 10:06:37 AM by LetterRip »

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4616 on: February 27, 2023, 10:36:29 AM »
"In fact the equivalent would be banning mask wearing outright even when it is voluntary."

Pre-pandemic there actually was quite a bit of that sentiment and if I remember correctly Florida was a hot spot but it was more along the lines of being anti-Muslim than pro-covid. At least they've been consistent about being anti-masking for a long time now.

For some reason I can see the WSJ article again beyond the paywall and this is what they said:

"The Energy Department’s conclusion is the result of new intelligence and is significant because the agency has considerable scientific expertise and oversees a network of U.S. national laboratories, some of which conduct advanced biological research."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-origin-china-lab-leak-807b7b0a

I'll admit to knowing little to nothing more than that. If they're wrong then so be it.

msquared

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4617 on: February 27, 2023, 11:19:19 AM »
So a Dept who does not normally do medical stuff puts out a report with "low confidence" we are supposed to take that as a better idea of where it came from?


LetterRip

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4618 on: February 27, 2023, 11:57:40 AM »
"In fact the equivalent would be banning mask wearing outright even when it is voluntary."

Pre-pandemic there actually was quite a bit of that sentiment and if I remember correctly Florida was a hot spot but it was more along the lines of being anti-Muslim than pro-covid. At least they've been consistent about being anti-masking for a long time now.

For some reason I can see the WSJ article again beyond the paywall and this is what they said:

"The Energy Department’s conclusion is the result of new intelligence and is significant because the agency has considerable scientific expertise and oversees a network of U.S. national laboratories, some of which conduct advanced biological research."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-origin-china-lab-leak-807b7b0a

I'll admit to knowing little to nothing more than that. If they're wrong then so be it.

The 'advanced biological research' is all computational biology - they have a really big supercomputer which is nice for advanced protein folding and protein interaction computations.  It has no relevance to the topic at hand.

Similarly with 'running lots of science labs'.  Physics and material science are drastically different disciplines than virology.

This is the problem with having reporters whose background is a journalism degree - they have no science understanding - so can't tell the difference between computational biology - a field with no relevance; and virology - a field with extreme relevance - to them they are both 'biology'.

(The authors of the piece are ' Michael R. Gordon' a 'national security correspondent' and Warren P. Strobel a 'foreign affairs correspondent')
« Last Edit: February 27, 2023, 12:00:19 PM by LetterRip »

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4619 on: February 27, 2023, 03:52:37 PM »
The main question is why is it now not racist to talk about it maybe coming from a lab but before it was a racist covid Russian propaganda misinformation conspiracy theory that shouldn't be taken at all seriously and in fact should get anybody canceled for mentioning it as a possibility?

Shouldn't there be at least an apology coming from the left for what was actually their own covid misinformation propaganda campaign about their certainty with regards to the covid origins?

And throw their certainty with regards to the effectiveness of the vaccines to stop spread on that pile of egotistical delusion as well except that had deadly consequences for hundreds of thousands because it prompted Biden's big lie that it was now safe to go maskless. At the time it was a conspiracy theory to question the effectiveness of the vaccines to stop infection and spread but time has proven that those who had doubts and questions were right after all and the ones who shut all that down were wrong in the worst possible way, the way that got people needlessly killed. Where is the accountability, the apology, the truth and reconciliation?

The extra sad thing is the lies about the vaccine effectiveness and origin certainty cast doubts on everything including masking even though it was at the height of masking that deaths and infections in America came down so low that Biden decided it was safe to throw them off. We weren't doing so well that we could get rid of masks. We were doing so well because of them. And now what do we have? Just an acceptance of high levels of infections, deaths, and long covid problems that probably could have been avoided if we'd just kept doing what we were doing which was working great. Hot take trigger warning: we could probably be about where we are right now if we'd done nothing at all.

And in a lot of ways even better off because though covid deaths may have been higher inflation would be lower, the economy would be better, and people wouldn't have put off treatment for other health issues. Plus Trump would still be President.

NobleHunter

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4620 on: February 27, 2023, 04:12:17 PM »
It's impressive how you blame the left for the failure of masking when virtually all political pressure to end it came and comes from the right.

msquared

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4621 on: February 27, 2023, 04:27:24 PM »
But the left, 2-3 years into the pandemic, when we had vaccines that would work, said you could stop masking. So they are fully culpable and responsible for every Covid death ever.

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4622 on: February 27, 2023, 04:44:33 PM »
Corporate America is as woke as it gets and within a week after Biden's deadly dictate the masks were off at all the big box retailers. Walmart, Costco, Target, and all the rest. Those places had kept the masks on despite what conservative pressure there was to drop them. Biden is also the one who lulled individual people into a false sense of security, who lied to them and tricked them into putting their guards down and letting the virus get them, who told them it was safe to do something that wasn't safe at all. Yes the conservatives were anti-masking before Biden made it cool but the suits in corporate America were toeing the party line and had already gotten used to it until Biden threw his monkey wrench into the gears and mucked it all up. Sorry but it just galls me that everyone, conservative anti-maskers and liberal Biden supporters alike just want to memory hole what could well be, with covid deaths by the end of Biden's Presidency eventually outnumbering Civil War casualties, the most deadly decision by a President in American history.

Tom

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4623 on: February 27, 2023, 04:46:12 PM »
Quote
The main question is why is it now not racist to talk about it maybe coming from a lab...
Why is that the main question? Who is saying it ISN'T racist? Hell, who is even talking about it coming from a lab, except for a minority report from the DOE which isn't being given any particular credence?

I mean, seriously, from my perspective it looks like your main question is ACTUALLY "how can I blame the political party for which I do not cheer for mass death and economic disaster? Let me throw *censored* at this wall."

--------

Quote
Corporate America is as woke as it gets...
I don't think you have any real understanding of just what it means to actually be "woke." :)
« Last Edit: February 27, 2023, 04:49:26 PM by Tom »

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4624 on: February 27, 2023, 04:55:59 PM »
Woke in this case would mean being aware and sensitive to the vulnerable including elderly and people with comorbidities who are overwhelmingly the victims of covid, but also including some who despite being young and healthy, for one reason or another draw the short straw in the covid game of death. Corporate America was woke enough to be onboard with masking if the federal government said it was for the best to protect the weakest and the unluckiest. Biden said that was no longer necessary. That was a lie. It was still necessary and the hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths that came afterwards prove it. Biden had both plentiful and relatively effective masks and vaccines. For no good reason he threw away half of our covid defenses. Why DID he do it? Basically because he is, not to put too fine a point it, an idiot (actually I did put a finer point on it than my original term which would have been a stupid mule). Just like with inflation and Afghanistan.

NobleHunter

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4625 on: February 27, 2023, 05:03:50 PM »
I'm sure the decision had nothing to do with mounting political pressure.

Wayward Son

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4626 on: February 27, 2023, 05:23:48 PM »
Quote
Sorry but it just galls me that everyone, conservative anti-maskers and liberal Biden supporters alike just want to memory hole what could well be, with covid deaths by the end of Biden's Presidency eventually outnumbering Civil War casualties, the most deadly decision by a President in American history.

Quote
For banning the vaccines, while I don't agree with it, it does seem like a reaction to the mandates. If the government can mandate a vaccine like that then maybe the only way to prevent someone from forcing you to get it while letting you keep your job and freedom is to ban it first.

I'm sorry, cherry, but I'm going to call you on this.  You don't care how many people die from Covid.  You apparently just want to score political points. :(

One study suggests that, of the 641,304 people of died of Covid between Jan 2021 and April 2022, about 319,000 of them could have been saved if they were vaccinated.  That's just shy of 50%.  HALF of those who died could have been saved.

Your reaction: well, it's just a reaction to vaccination mandates.  Maybe preventing people who want the vaccine is the only way to prevent others from losing their jobs and freedom.

What you neglect to mention is your attitude of "who gives a sh*t if a few hundred-thousand more people die because they are denied the vaccine."  People who choose NOT to die, but these idiots want to FORCE them to die, under penalty of law.  >:(

That doesn't outrage you.  >:(

What outrages you is that Biden, who has consistently advocated wearing masks and getting the vaccine, stopped the requirement before you thought it was a good idea.  When a lot of Americans had already stopped wearing masks, and Republicans like those in Florida were calling him names like you are for the mandates he had already made.  When the CDC had said that they were not as necessary as they were before.  For that, you want to blame him for more causalties than in the Civil War.  ???

You give these vaccine and Covid-19 deniers every excuse, and you give Biden none.  Why is that?  Why are those that you suppose Biden allowed to die so, so much worse than those who the deniers allowed to die, and those they want to force to die? Why is Biden so criminal, and these idiot deniers to understandable?

Because it sure it not because people were dying.  Only apparently those "killed" by Biden.  Those "killed" by deniers aren't worth the time of day to you, are they?  :P

Tom

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4627 on: February 27, 2023, 05:28:52 PM »
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Woke in this case would mean being aware and sensitive to the vulnerable including elderly and people with comorbidities who are overwhelmingly the victims of covid...
For what it's worth, I strongly disagree that corporate America is "woke," even (possibly especially) under this atypical definition of "woke." Corporate America is as craven, venal, and profit-hungry as it gets, and will do absolutely whatever they think they need to do to maximize net income.

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4628 on: February 27, 2023, 07:37:04 PM »
For the people who just refuse to get vaccinated no matter what, the solution for them wasn't to say it's safe to take off the masks because now we have vaccines available.

For the ones who died after Biden said that, somehow they lived up until then without vaccines. Common sense would say that may well be because the masks saved them.

One way to look at it is they could have saved themselves if they'd just gotten vaccinated. Another way to look at it is that a lot of them also could have been saved if nobody said it was safe yet to take off the masks.

To my knowledge, the Republicans weren't even really saying it was safe to take off the masks. Maybe a few of them did and if so they were not correct. But by and large their point was that the freedom to not wear a mask is worth dying for. That makes them a lot different from Biden. The conservatives say take off your mask and if you die, you die, and thank you for your service. Prudent people would hear that and say okay I understand where you're coming from but I think I'll keep wearing my mask because it doesn't adversely affect me or make me uncomfortable quite as much as death, thanks. There's no trickery there.

Biden on the other hand lied and told people before anyone could know if it was really true or not that it was safe to take them off if you're vaccinated. The same prudent people who do what they're told and trust their government got vaccinated and then took off their masks. We've been over all that before and it was dumb in more ways than one. Even if the vaccines delivered as promised, it still wasn't safe because the unvaccinated would also take off their masks since there was no way to distinguish vaxxed from unvaxxed just by looking at someone. Then to make it even worse the vaccines didn't even live up to the hype. They didn't prevent infection or spread. Then to make it even worse than that we found that out relatively soon afterward that the vaccines don't prevent spread and Biden didn't reverse course even after he was proven wrong. And now to top it all off, more vaccinated people are dying than unvaccinated. I understand the math on it but it still proves the vaccines aren't living up to the promises Biden made about them and yet we're still going with the everyone just get it and let God sort it out plan that the left rightfully denounced until for no good scientific reason they just dropped it out of nowhere.

Even if you think the unvaccinated are just paying the price for their choices, now that more vaccinated are dying that argument loses its steam. These are the people who listened, who did what they were told because they believed it, and now are paying the ultimate price. And the crime is that even now Biden won't reverse course and admit his failure and mistake and just tell the truth. And what is that? Well you hear it every now and then but in muted terms. It was never safe to take off the masks and it's not safe now. We're not going to renew the mandates but the official position of the President and the national health experts is that everyone should be wearing well fitted high quality masks indoors in crowded places. And if you choose not to that's your call.

That's all. Just the truth. For once.

Instead the official position is still that if you're vaccinated it's okay not to wear a mask. Since most of the dying are vaccinated that's obviously absurd. Even if it was okay when it was the unvaxxed dying, that's not the case anymore. That should change the calculus even for Democrats but apparently not. It's almost as if they never really cared that much and it was all politics all the time.

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4629 on: February 27, 2023, 07:43:38 PM »
"Corporate America is as craven, venal, and profit-hungry as it gets, and will do absolutely whatever they think they need to do to maximize net income."

I'll admit on reflection that perhaps I gave them too much credit as this offers another explanation for why they went along with the mask mandates as the enforcers so willingly; they were just trying to maximize profits by keeping their customers alive.

Going over it again, let's recall that by and large this wasn't a government mask mandate except on federal property where the government has authority. But in other places it was corporations on their private property requiring masks to enter the same way they can say no shoes, no shirt, no service. So when I say there isn't the political will for mask mandates that's true but if "the government" comes out and recommends masks then corporations will be free to do what they see best to maximize their profits if they are evil or to protect their customers if they are good but in the end it would often result in the same thing: masks. And some will see more profit in being mask free zones and that's fine too. Freedom. But freedom should have a foundation in accurate information.

Fenring

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4630 on: February 27, 2023, 07:54:45 PM »
I'll admit on reflection that perhaps I gave them too much credit as this offers another explanation for why they went along with the mask mandates as the enforcers so willingly; they were just trying to maximize profits by keeping their customers alive.

Haha, is that sarcasm? It's kinda funny. I think the obvious bet (and what Tom implied) is that they would entertain any policy that plays well for their PR and gets customers in the door.

In regard to mask mandates I'm not sure why you are asserting so confidently that if Biden had been tougher on keeping masks on that an appreciable amount of people would have changed their mind and kept the masks on for longer. And even if you did assert that, it strikes me as probable that the people most likely to comply would be those also least likely to venture out with covid in the first place, thus further negating the effect of him taking that position. The most irresponsible people would have ignored him anyhow, no? Therefore how can you be so sure that even had Biden said what you want, and certain people complied, that it would have made much of a difference in number of deaths?

Tom

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4631 on: February 27, 2023, 08:08:40 PM »
Quote
But by and large their point was that the freedom to not wear a mask is worth dying for. That makes them a lot different from Biden.
Worth killing for, too, keep in mind.

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4632 on: February 27, 2023, 09:30:16 PM »
"The most irresponsible people would have ignored him anyhow, no? Therefore how can you be so sure that even had Biden said what you want, and certain people complied, that it would have made much of a difference in number of deaths?"

I don't mind so much if people choose to ignore good advice.

My problem is with the arrogant way Biden gave bad advice.

If he would have hedged even a little I'd be more okay with it. He could have said something like, "Though it's too early to tell for sure, we're hopeful that the vaccines prevent infection and spread and it's safe for the vaccinated, and only the vaccinated, to take off their masks in crowded indoor areas, and so we're lifting the recommendation that everyone wear masks for now but if it turns out we're overly optimistic about the effectiveness of the vaccines then just be aware that we may have to recommend them again."

I'm going back over what happened and when. In February Biden said it was premature to end masking. He was right.

Here's what he said later on during the great unmasking:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2021/05/13/remarks-by-president-biden-on-the-covid-19-response-and-the-vaccination-program-3/

Just going to snip and comment.

"As the press here knows, I carry a card in my pocket with the number of lives lost to COVID as of the close of business yesterday: 580,073 lost lives."

I wonder if he still carries such a card in his pocket now that the number has almost doubled since he said that. How do you lose as many people after your great victory speech as you did before it? Makes no sense unless there never was a victory.

---------------------------------

"You’ve endured all this.  When your country asked you to get vaccinated, you did.  The American people stepped up.  You did what I consider to be your patriotic duty.  That’s how we’ve gotten to this day.
 
As President, I can say I’m pleased, but — I’m sure the Vice President agrees with me — we’re not surprised.  Pleased, but not surprised.  Because the simple truth is this: the American people have never, ever, ever, ever let their country down.  Never."

Wow. That's a powerful indictment of his own foolish orders. He's right though. The American people didn't let their country down. He did. The American people were stepping up and we were winning. And if he wouldn't have led us down the wrong path we'd be winning still. It wouldn't be over by a long shot but we'd almost certainly have hundreds of thousands more Americans alive right now.

"Now, I want to be clear about what the CD- — CDC is saying and what the CDC is not saying.  The CDC is saying they have concluded that fully vaccinated people are at a very, very low risk of getting COVID-19.  Therefore, if you’ve been fully vaccinated, you no longer need to wear a mask.  Let me repeat: If you are fully vaccinated, you no longer need to wear a mask."

Very, very low risk. That turned out not to be true. If he would have said a significantly lower risk that would at least have been a tenable position. He way oversold it. And the part about you no longer need to wear a mask if you're vaccinated? For every vaccinated person who took off their mask and died of covid, not true at all. They did need to keep wearing their mask. Would it have saved them? Not necessarily, but it's definite that when they didn't wear it they died so a mask wouldn't have hurt them and might have helped, if only they hadn't listened to Joe Biden.

"But if you’ve not been vaccinated, or if you’re getting a two-shot rou- — vaccine, and you’ve not gotten your — you’ve only had your first shot but not your second or you haven’t waited two full two weeks after your second shot, you still need to wear a mask."

Not quite true either. You still SHOULD wear a mask but you don't NEED to wear a mask anymore because nobody can tell who is vaccinated and who isn't. More ridiculousness.

"If you’re vaccinated, you can be around the vaccinated or unvaccinated people."

So not true either. The vaccinated can still spread it so if you've got vaccinated healthcare providers seeing people who can't be vaccinated or who just aren't and are maskless because they are in their own private rooms then you're going to be spreading covid, a lot like the people testing for covid were spreading it around on the cruise ships at the beginning.  Biden let everyone's guard down with his misinformation.

"Q    Mr. President, how do you enforce unvaccinated Americans to still use their masks?
 
THE PRESIDENT:  I don’t — we don’t enforce it.  We, in fact, if you don’t — if you haven’t been vaccinated, wear your mask for your own protection and the protection of the people who are — also have not been vaccinated yet.
 
It’s not an enforcement thing.  We’re not going to go out and arrest people.   But the fact of the matter is, I still believe the vast majority of the American people care about the safety of their neighbors and care about the safety of their families."

Well we all know how that turned out. Kind of puts a damper on the optimistic appraisal of the American people after all.


"You know, some may say, “I just feel more comfortable continuing to wear a mask.”  They may feel that way.  So if you’re someone with a mask — you see them, please treat them with kindness and respect.  We’ve had too much conflict, too much bitterness, too much anger, too much polarization of this issue about wearing masks.  Let’s put it to rest."

This part I liked and give him credit for.


Tom

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4633 on: February 27, 2023, 09:42:33 PM »
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My problem is with the arrogant way Biden gave bad advice.
You voted for Trump, no?

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4634 on: February 27, 2023, 11:10:58 PM »
We've already been over that the media lied and actually got people killed when they falsely claimed that Trump said to inject disinfectant to cure covid. Trump was slow to the "maskerade" ball but by the time he left office he was dancing to the right tune. Trump championed the development of the vaccines and even some of his supporters disapprove of him for that. He had the borders more secure which is in line with the science as Japan demonstrates, only recently opening theirs up while still masking. Trump basically gave Biden a solid hand and Joe threw two of the aces away, the masks and the border. Then Biden put his cards on the table and confidently proclaimed what he thought was the winning hand, Ace High, Trump's vaccines. But Covid played the joker, made Biden look like a fool, and walked away with the pot. I supported Trump for the things he did right and called him on it when I thought he was making mistakes. The dangerous thing with the left is they are too unwilling to call Biden on his tragic blunders even when there's still time to turn it around by doing the right thing.

Tom

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4635 on: February 27, 2023, 11:57:33 PM »
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I supported Trump for the things he did right and called him on it when I thought he was making mistakes.
Can you show me where you called Trump out for arrogantly giving bad advice to people?

Wayward Son

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4636 on: February 28, 2023, 12:56:51 AM »
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We've already been over that the media lied and actually got people killed when they falsely claimed that Trump said to inject disinfectant to cure covid.

Ah, yes, I remember when Trump told the Press that he said no such thing, and warned his supporters not to ingest bleach, that it would only hurt you.  I loved how he put the lives of his followers before himself.  It is what made him such a great President.

Hallucinates are fun, aren't they.  ;D

Did you ever ask yourself why he didn't do that? ;)

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4637 on: February 28, 2023, 10:41:42 AM »
http://www.ornery.org/forum/index.php/topic,1057.msg53472.html#msg53472

"I'm a Trumpist and I've taken Covid seriously since even before the WHO or CDC did. I took it seriously and knew we should have done a total travel ban instead of Trump's half-hearted one while Biden ranted about travel bans being the knee-jerk reaction of a racist xenophobe. I knew that masks would help while our own government and the WHO as well were saying healthy people didn't need them."

http://www.ornery.org/forum/index.php/topic,964.msg45242.html#msg45242

"I've been the first to call out Trump's mistakes on handling the pandemic. I was all over the mask issue from day one. But I also know that travel restrictions are vital too. I'm not against New York state and it's strict quarantines. That's fine and necessary. I'm just laughing at how ineffective they are with our borders spread wide open. Americans who check into a hotel have to give all their information and itinerary while thousands of illegals are scattering themselves throughout the state and nobody knows a thing about them."

--------------------------------------------

I see the Democrats as unwilling to do the right thing and call out the mistakes of their guy because they figure there are bigger more important issues in play than just the hundreds dying every day of covid. Racism obviously. The BLM riots during the lockdowns proved that fighting racism is more important than saving lives from covid even if a lot of the lives saved would be black. If people aren't even willing to do that much, to admit when the guy they support is wrong, we're done for.

And we see that happening on many fronts too. Another one is Mayor Pete who blew the supply chain crisis by doing nothing about it while he was on personal leave. That was a Biden failure also because Biden is the one who put an unqualified person in position just to check off a woke box, and then not only had someone who didn't know what he was doing in there but took leave and didn't even try on the job training to manage the supply chain issues that helped fuel inflation. It's just one thing after another and in true emperor has no clothes fashion, these guys who prove their incompetence time after time are allowed to continue to fail upward just like Biden himself because none of their supporters are ever willing to hold them accountable for their terrible decisions and actions.


Wayward Son

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4638 on: February 28, 2023, 01:50:26 PM »
The problem, cherry, is that you've already shown that you don't give a hoot about people dying from Covid, either.  ;D

So your criticisms of us not severely criticizing Biden for not doing as much as he should have, when you barely bat an eye at Republicans trying to ban Covid-19 vaccines (and any of it's successors), means that this isn't really about Covid-19 responses to save people.

So scream all you want about how Joe Biden has killed people by not keeping the mask ban around long enough.  Because it means nothing from a man who is not outraged at Republicans who downplayed the deadliness of the virus, at Republicans wanting to punish Anthony Faucci for trying to save lives, at Republicans who never wanted anyone to wear masks, at Republicans who demanded our kids to mingle at school to further spread the disease, and at Republicans who now are talking about banning the Covid-19 vaccine and any similar ones.  One side may have killed people by neglect; the other side killed people by intent.  And those who killed by intent are pretty much fine with you.  >:(

Stop telling us to pull the mote out of our eyes...  ;)

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4639 on: February 28, 2023, 03:16:34 PM »
There are Republicans and then there's Trump.

Trump pushed the vaccines. He led Operation Warp Speed. He was President when the mask mandates went into effect and when he left office they were still in effect. So according to the left Trump was doing the right things, taking the measures that counted most.

If you want to lump Trump in with the rest of the Republicans that's fine but it doesn't make a lot of sense when Trump was diametrically opposed to their positions and so were the Trump supporters who supported him because of those positions. So I'm not seeing the mote in Trump's eye or mine when we both supported the vaccines (without mandates) and masks and went even further than Democrats by supporting secure borders too. If a lot of Republicans weren't onboard then that's their problem. And after Biden took off the masks there wasn't a lot of difference between him and the Republicans anyway. The vast majority of Republicans are not for vaccine bans. 99.99%. They aren't for mandates either but if people want to get vaccinated Republicans are fine with it. Your body your choice. So Republicans are basically on the same page as Biden now except for the border which makes Biden and the Democrats the weaker anti-Covid people.

Tom

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4640 on: February 28, 2023, 03:39:10 PM »
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So according to the left Trump was doing the right things, taking the measures that counted most.
You know, there are times when I wonder how you can post this sort of thing with a straight face.

Wayward Son

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4641 on: February 28, 2023, 03:54:43 PM »
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Trump pushed the vaccines. He led Operation Warp Speed. He was President when the mask mandates went into effect and when he left office they were still in effect. So according to the left Trump was doing the right things, taking the measures that counted most.

Except I wasn't talking about Trump; I was talking about you.

You are outraged--OUTRAGED!--that Biden didn't keep the mast mandates longer than he did.

But you are blasé when you hear Republicans want to outlaw the Covid vaccine.  You can understand where they are coming from...  ???

You've latched onto this one bit where you can criticize Biden on Covid.  And you've seem to have forgotten Trump going to a hospital and not wearing a mask, or him prohibiting the wearing of masks around the White House, even after he got Covid himself.  He was such a fine example to the nation, wasn't he?  :D

But regardless of what Trump did or did not do, you are not outraged when Republicans intentionally do things that keep people from protecting themselves.  Only when you think Biden should have done more are you outraged.

It isn't about what Biden did or did not do about Covid; it's about Biden himself.  His actions are secondary.  And your reasons for your outrage have little to do with Covid.  ::)

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4642 on: February 28, 2023, 05:28:12 PM »
It's not just about Biden himself though. It's about his partisan followers that pretend like he's all that and a bag of chips even when he goes against what they say they believe in. Masks, for example. If it had been a Republican that did what Biden did he wouldn't have gotten a pass.

The Republicans are doing what they believe in at least. They are valuing freedom above lives.

The Democrats believed in masks and secretly many of them still do but Biden led the charge up that hill so now they're all just going to follow him like sheeple and die on it. They can't even be bothered to have the courage of their convictions.

It's bad enough with Republicans who are doing what they think is right even if it's a mistake but Democrats following the doddering old imbecile Biden know he is making the wrong calls but pretend he's a genius anyway.

Godwin help us to decide who is more dangerous, people charging down the road to hell with good intentions (Republicans) or the people who know they are doing wrong but follow their leader to hell anyway (Democrats)? Which group was worse, the people who followed Hitler because they truly believed in him or the ones who didn't but followed him anyway just because he was their guy?

Not saying Biden is Hitler of course, but he is a walking muttering one man disaster.

Tom

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4643 on: February 28, 2023, 05:33:52 PM »
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It's about his partisan followers that pretend like he's all that and a bag of chips...
Why do you care? I mean, it's not like you make a habit of railing against hypocrisy or hero worship in other scenarios.

Also: I emphatically reject the idea that the majority of Republicans have good intentions and act primarily out of concern for higher principle. If nothing else, the recent Fox News kerfluffle should make it glaringly obvious that this is at the very least not true for their pundit class.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2023, 05:36:04 PM by Tom »

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4644 on: February 28, 2023, 05:43:16 PM »
To be clear it isn't that Biden dropped the mask mandates but that he said it was safe for the vaccinated to take off their masks when he didn't know that yet and it turned out not to be true. He could have said what the Republicans said which is don't wear a mask if you don't want to and if you die, you die. It's galling when people insist something is safe and it's not, like the guys at the WTC telling people not to evacuate after the first plane hit because it's all under control. I hate that type of authority, the ignorant arrogant type. We had those types of bosses in the Navy a lot. "Here's a can of triche (trichloroethylene), now go and clean that rotor." "Isn't this banned because it's hazardous?" "Nah don't worry about that because the new stuff doesn't clean as well."

Just looked it up and sure enough it wasn't just me either.

https://cen.acs.org/policy/chemical-regulation/DOD-criticized-approach-trichloroethylene-exposure/97/i46

"TCE is a human carcinogen and has adverse effects on the liver, kidneys, brain, and immune system, as well as on reproduction. The DOD is concerned about people inhaling TCE while working in facilities near contaminated DOD sites.

The US military once widely used TCE as a metal degreaser and in maintenance of tanks and aircraft."

You look around at everyone else using it, just going along to get along, and then you refuse and insist on using the new stuff and they act like you're the crazy one and you get punished for it though not officially of course. Biden's exactly that type of ignoramus.

Tom

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4645 on: February 28, 2023, 06:00:27 PM »
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He could have said what the Republicans said which is don't wear a mask if you don't want to and if you die, you die.
You keep missing a core component of the Democratic messaging on this, which is that you wore a mask for OTHER PEOPLE, not for yourself.

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4646 on: February 28, 2023, 08:55:16 PM »
But that's what makes Biden's declaration that the vaccinated don't have to wear masks so egregious.

You're right that I glossed over it but I do still get it.

If the vaccines worked as intended and as Biden had said and hoped they would they yeah the vaccinated no longer have to wear masks because for all practical purposes they wouldn't spread the virus anymore but when that proved not to be the case since as you correctly point out the point of the masks is to protect others from you then how does it make sense to keep on not wearing masks? And then when we have the case now that more vaccinated are dying than unvaccinated so not only do the vaccines not work as well at preventing spread but they don't work as well as preventing serious illness and death as we'd hoped either and we still don't get back to the mask recommendations we had before, it doesn't make any sense scientifically or medically. Only politically.

Having said that, at this point it's no longer the case that you're wearing your mask to protect others. That's theoretical but not practical. When 90% of the people around you are maskless, you wearing a mask is doing nothing for them. They are getting exposed already nine ways to Sunday before they ever come into your line of sight. Now if you're wearing a mask you're trying not to get infected and with all the superspreaders around you, vaxxed and unvaxxed alike, your mask better be good and fit well.

The other thing about why I hold Biden more responsible is because he's The President. The Big Guy. The guy who gets his 10%. Like God. The buck stops with him. He was supposed to lead us and he didn't lead us well but led us down the wrong path to disaster.

Tom

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4647 on: February 28, 2023, 09:08:24 PM »
And, um, just to clarify: you think Trump DID lead us well?

cherrypoptart

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4648 on: February 28, 2023, 09:23:47 PM »
Absolutely.

He got the vaccines rolled out, had the mask mandates in place, had border crossings a lot lower than they are now, inflation was lower, Ukraine wasn't fully invaded, girls in Afghanistan were in school, the birds were singing and the Sun was shining.

Of course there were the insurrectionist BLM riots and constant lies by Democrats colluding with the mainstream media to push the Russian collusion hoax, all to topple a sitting duly elected President with a combination of violence in the streets along with fraudulently based impeachments in the capitol.

On covid, Trump did get off to a rocky start. There weren't enough masks which caused our government to lie about them and got things messed up all down the line but that was more Fauci and the so called health "experts" at the top than Trump. Trump didn't lock down the border but even the travel bans he did manage were opposed by Democrats so Trump was actually much better than them on that score. And let's not forget some Democrats pushing covid infected people into nursing homes. That certainly didn't help but that wasn't Trump's call. I would give Trump a grade of epic fail on his initial response to covid but by the time he left office he was doing the right things. Biden threw two thirds of Trump's successes away all so he could have his "mission accomplished" moment.

Tom

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Re: coronavirus
« Reply #4649 on: February 28, 2023, 09:46:30 PM »
At least you're not lacking self-awareness, I suppose.