Author Topic: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe  (Read 38991 times)

yossarian22c

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #900 on: September 23, 2020, 08:48:31 PM »
At the same time we have no insight into what deals the Trump kids have been cutting around the world. We do know lots of foreign nationals have just happened to stay at Trump's hotel in DC. We'll have to wait on the report to how that potentially impacted any foreign policy.

The problem with "lots of foreign nationals have just happened to stay at Trump's hotel in DC." Is that I imagine that was also a common occurrence prior to 2016 as well. So it becomes hard to differentiate between Business as usual vs Business unusual.

The hotel opened in 2016. So there was no before.

The terms of the lease were supposed to be that no government official could profit from it. But magically that doesn’t apply to Trump. I just don’t understand how people can think the Biden deal is the corruption apocalypse while watching Trump not divest his businesses, including many international ones. And we know he asked the state department to try to get the British open at one of his resorts.

TheDrake

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #901 on: September 24, 2020, 12:46:24 PM »
Oh how about when Trump tried to MANDATE that the G7 meet at HIS PERSONAL PROPERTY, Doral?

Meanwhile, Kuwait had already booked the 4 seasons hotel, and WHOOPS, cancelled and rebooked at Trump's property. All perfectly innocent, I'm sure.

Kuwait hearts Trump

TheDrake

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #902 on: September 24, 2020, 12:53:05 PM »
...we have no insight into what deals the Trump kids have been cutting around the world.

It's a world of difference. Trump's kids have always been competent and successful on their own, way before Trump's Presidency. Hunter and the rest of the family just cashed in on Joe Biden's position to shake down foreign oligarchs and crooks. Remember, Hunter had zero experience in the fields he was hired to be an advisor for.

At the same time, Rich foreigners and royalty always stayed at Trump properties around the world before he ran for office. i don't think Chinese billionaires stayed overnight in Hunter's back bedroom.

They were absolutely not successful "on their own". Ivanka Trump never launches a clothing line if she isn't Trump's daughter. You're not wrong about Hunter, but you're blind to the Trump nepotism. Let's ask ourselves how much foreign policy experience Jared Kushner had prior to being dropped into the role? Can you, just for once, admit the obvious Lambert? That JK had no business being in that role?

Fenring

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #903 on: September 24, 2020, 01:15:02 PM »
Ivanka Trump never launches a clothing line if she isn't Trump's daughter. You're not wrong about Hunter, but you're blind to the Trump nepotism.

Ok, these are really not equivalent. Using your family's fame to create PR for a clothing line is exactly how business is actually supposed to work. You develop a brand ("Trump", in this case) and develop business from that branding. It may still seem unfair to those who really have to start from scratch in life, the rich get richer and all that, but it's still a fundamental part of capitalism. Assigning relatives and buddies to positions of power in government, or to boards of directors, is not a necessary part of capitalism but rather is more the norm in backward or third world countries that have corruption all through the system. In a place like America it's crony capitalism, of which this aspect isn't capitalism at all. Comparing that to Trump's daughter using the family name to pursue business is really not fair. Not that I am personally a fan of dynastic business empires, but that's a different matter.


TheDrake

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #904 on: September 24, 2020, 01:23:32 PM »
Ivanka Trump never launches a clothing line if she isn't Trump's daughter. You're not wrong about Hunter, but you're blind to the Trump nepotism.

Ok, these are really not equivalent. Using your family's fame to create PR for a clothing line is exactly how business is actually supposed to work. You develop a brand ("Trump", in this case) and develop business from that branding. It may still seem unfair to those who really have to start from scratch in life, the rich get richer and all that, but it's still a fundamental part of capitalism. Assigning relatives and buddies to positions of power in government, or to boards of directors, is not a necessary part of capitalism but rather is more the norm in backward or third world countries that have corruption all through the system. In a place like America it's crony capitalism, of which this aspect isn't capitalism at all. Comparing that to Trump's daughter using the family name to pursue business is really not fair. Not that I am personally a fan of dynastic business empires, but that's a different matter.

I don't disagree, I just took exception to the concept that the Trump kids, or for that matter, Donald himself were "self made". But if we want to take a peek a more equivalent flip side, maybe you'd like to address how Kushner got a position in government? Paid for by taxpayers, mind you, which Hunter Biden never was.

DonaldD

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #905 on: September 24, 2020, 01:35:44 PM »
The claim was "competent and successful on their own"

I'm sorry, but being created as a reality show "star" on one's father's television show, then using that name recognition and (and this is important) the seed money from the family's bank accounts, is in no way "on one's own".  That may be how business works, but 'business as usual' was not the claim.

TheDrake

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #906 on: September 24, 2020, 01:36:23 PM »
Let's get one other thing clear. It isn't like Hunter Biden was sitting around eating Mayonnaise from a jar prior to the board appointment at Burisma.

He got a Law degree from Yale in 96. Worked for MBNA (yeah, through daddy's connections, but not because Joe could do foreigners a favor from the White House). Founded a VC firm, worked in another law firm. And so on and so on.

Fenring

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #907 on: September 24, 2020, 01:39:35 PM »
I don't disagree, I just took exception to the concept that the Trump kids, or for that matter, Donald himself were "self made".

In fairness back again, I don't think anyone properly has the right to claim to be "self-made" since no one can possibly estimate how much they owe others in every step of their own success. Being a self-made millionaire is almost equivalent to claiming that you created yourself prior to your own birth. And I'm not being flip about this. So I'm not so much defending any claim Trump has made to be self-made, which almost by definition I think is silly, but on the other hand it's vaguely in the same spirit as any other American saying it, by which they mean "I'm awesome! Look at everything I've got!" That's all it ever really means, and Trump saying it is not much more or less worthless than anyone else.

TheDrake

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #908 on: September 24, 2020, 01:40:20 PM »
Let's look over to the other side again. Ivanka managed a Bachelor's degree in economics, at... wait for it.... The Wharton school. Where daddy went and made donations. Then worked for her daddy, directly, for almost her whole life, with the exception of a brief stint at Forest City Enterprises, which does..... real estate management.

TheDrake

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #909 on: September 24, 2020, 01:42:28 PM »
It's a matter of degree. I'll respect someone's claim to be self-made a lot more if they were an orphan, raised in foster care by drug addicted parents. Paid their own way through school. Got their job by sending out there own resumes without being recommended.

wmLambert

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #910 on: September 24, 2020, 07:05:14 PM »
Everybody can claim being self-made. And everyone is influenced by others.

However standing on the shoulders of good people is better than being mentored by Saul Alinsky and KKK Grand Poobahs.

TheDeamon

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #911 on: September 25, 2020, 12:08:12 AM »
Let's look over to the other side again. Ivanka managed a Bachelor's degree in economics, at... wait for it.... The Wharton school. Where daddy went and made donations. Then worked for her daddy, directly, for almost her whole life, with the exception of a brief stint at Forest City Enterprises, which does..... real estate management.

There is nothing inherently wrong about "working in the family business" LOTS of people do that, and have done so for centuries. Now you can question how effective she is within the workplace, and if the family connection is why/how she is where she is, or if she is capable of working at the level that Trump's organization placed her. Obviously being on "an inside (family) track" for promotions and placement certainly helps and if she'd been just another person hired off the job market, it'd probably have taken much longer for her to get anywhere.

But as Fenring already pointed out, getting somewhere on a combination of your own and your family's merits is a very different thing from getting somewhere on the basis of government positions held by members of the family.

TheDrake

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #912 on: September 25, 2020, 12:30:16 AM »
Number one, as an objectivist who admires Ayn Rand, I'm totally in line with her ideas. Expressed in atlas shrugged, that just because it's your son they should get no special avantage. Second, care to comment on Kushner getting a government position?

Fenring

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #913 on: September 25, 2020, 02:17:51 AM »
Number one, as an objectivist who admires Ayn Rand, I'm totally in line with her ideas. Expressed in atlas shrugged, that just because it's your son they should get no special avantage.

This is a bit of a red herring, because Rand was talking about people being given privileges out of a sense of entitlement. She didn't actually say that no one should ever make use of an existing brand or family name to further a cause properly. Saying that a family can't continue it's own family branding is sort of like saying that family businesses shouldn't exist, or that branding a personal name is immoral or something. I mean, going down that road you would end up with a moral imperative that basically says you can't profit or benefit from anything at all you didn't create yourself; what's the difference whether it came from family or any other place? Except the thing is no one can create or produce anything other than on the backs of everyone who came before. It's literally how process development works over time, whether for a brand or a technological innovation. I mean, what, the Waltons can't allow their kids to work in the business, they'd better go get a job at Target or something? Or if Hershey has a big name in candy, now if they develop a new candy line it's somehow unethical because really this new candy is just benefiting from the merits of some other candy and not on its own? I know I'm getting a bit funny with this last example but I do believe you end up with turtles all the way down when you want to go down the road of people not benefiting 'unfairly' from what they did not personally create.

Having said all that, I'll remind you that I'm separating all of this from nepotism in the sense of giving underqualified or unqualified people positions in order to simply wield power or gain favors. As there is possibly overlap with Trump's family, this bears mentioning. I think it is possible to argue that Trump is guilty of nepotism if it was true that those he assigns are unqualified. For his own daughter...it's pretty tough to really call that nepotism. I mean having your own child work in your family's financial empire is really as close to home as it gets, and it would be a real stretch to call that invalid. I mean she'd have to be *pretty* inept for that to be nepotism. Inepotism, I guess.

And having said all that, I'm not even endorsing what might be called the capitalistic ethic, but I am trying to describe what I think is a reasonable interpretation of how the current system is supposed to work. You have to go really far, as Rand did, to actually tell your child to think twice that they're going to be in your family business. In fact it's practically unethical to do that purely on principle, notwithstanding that many kids obviously want or need to go their own way. This is similar to Rand's examples of 'fidelity' to a person sexually speaking, whether her ideal in theory of going with the greatest person, most closely aligned with your values, in practice means little more than never having fidelity to anyone because someone better might come along tomorrow. On paper it may sound noble and selfless, in practice it's highly unethical and damaging (which is reflected in the results of her own experiments in this regard). So I think examples like this from Atlas Shrugged are best taken as a metaphorical concept of doing away with parasites trying to leach off of those who actually create value (which is reasonable to an extent) and of not being with someone romantically just because you happen to be standing next to them in social milieu (also reasonable). But the practical application cannot possibly resemble the literal content of the story; at least not without everyone being miserable. To paraphrase an old idea, a worse thing than people getting what they don't deserve, would be everyone getting what they deserve.

TheDrake

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #914 on: October 07, 2020, 08:39:36 AM »
Quote
"And I want to see these beautiful young ladies- I want to see them dancing when they're four years older too," Biden pointed, sparking laughs from attendees.

Cell phone footage from another angle of Biden's remarks shows who the former VP was addressing, which appeared to be two young girls sitting off to the side.

*censored* it, Joe.

wmLambert

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #915 on: October 08, 2020, 11:29:30 AM »
Number one, as an objectivist who admires Ayn Rand, I'm totally in line with her ideas. Expressed in atlas shrugged, that just because it's your son they should get no special advantage. Second, care to comment on Kushner getting a government position?

The Free Enterprise system has always used apprenticeships, and much of that was family based. As a matter of fact family apprenticeships have usually resulted in highly trained and experienced leaders in any occupation: Masons, miners, entrepreneurs of every stripe. Sadly, the worst workers tend to come from those from only an academic world, who never actually performed the work necessary to become good at it. Pure politicians are the worst. They have no job skills, yet act like they do.

I'd rather have Construction Superintendents and Project Managers running things in any venue. It has been proven that government bureaucrats cannot run businesses. Kushner is another matter. Highly educated, he has run several businesses and made them profitable. The single real estate project that didn't work out was done at the behest of his father during the real estate bust. He also took over a publishing project and turned it profitable in this world of dying newspapers. One odd fact was that George Soros was one of his investors.

wmLambert

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #916 on: October 08, 2020, 12:23:21 PM »
Two varied thoughts here. One on Ayn Rand. She is an interesting philosopher queen, coming by way of Communism, which she hated and based all her thinking upon. Most of what she wrote makes sense, but she, herself, stood outside of her own genius. Let's not get into her private life, it is just too weird to fully comprehend. In Atlas Shrugged, she wrote about entrepreneurial geniuses who were part of family businesses who were fighting inept government wannabees who felt entitled to others' creations. She painted with black and white, using no grays in her palette. In real life, we always stand on the shoulders of those who came before us, and not everyone is totally lost to sanity. Misled and disinformed, but not intrinsically evil.

The other point is how simple things point to others. Take the terms "Capitalism" and "Capitalistic ethic." They were designed out of the Engels and Marx playbook, as pejorative synonyms for "Free Enterprise" and "The Protestant Ethic." The purpose was to add a negative tag onto a positive. Later, the KGB documented in paperwork opened during Perestroika and Glasnost, that they purposefully pushed those terms so that the American psyche would use them instead of understanding what they were meant to stand in for. I tend to use the real terms, not the ones which were designed to play with our minds.

wmLambert

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #917 on: October 14, 2020, 03:54:33 PM »
I just revisited Biden's official website. It has changed in one sense - but has stayed the same in others. The original website didn't state his plans and explicit actions he would undertake if elected, but reposted public statements as if they were plans.

The new website no longer just reprints public statements (which often contradicted each other), but now has a huge volume of desired end results with little specificity of how to get there. In the listing of what he wants to accomplish, he blames Trump for being the problem. That being the case, only his election can solve the problems.

There are many categories, and almost all claims are generalized assertions without documentation.

For example:
Quote
The Biden Plan to Secure Environmental Justice and Equitable Economic Opportunity

The current COVID-19 pandemic reminds us how profoundly the energy and environmental policy decisions of the past have failed communities of color – allowing systemic shocks, persistent stressors, and pandemics to disproportionately impact communities of color and low-income communities.
Joe Biden is running for President to ensure that all Americans have a fair shot at getting ahead. That means rooting out the systemic racism in our laws, policies, institutions, and hearts. Any sound energy and environmental policy must advance public health and economic opportunity for all Americans, in rural, urban, and suburban communities, and recognize that communities of color and low-income communities have faced disproportionate harm from climate change and environmental contaminants for decades. It must also hold corporate polluters responsible for rampant pollution that creates the types of underlying conditions that are contributing to the disproportionate rates of illness, hospitalization, and death from COVID-19 among Black, Latino, and Native Americans. That means officials setting policy must be accountable to the people and communities they serve, not to polluters and corporations.Addressing environmental and climate justice is a core tenet of Biden’s climate plan. Biden will:

  • Use an inclusive and empowering All-of-Government approach;
  • Make decisions that are driven by data and science;
  • Target resources in a way that is consistent with prioritization of environmental and climate justice; and
  • Assess and address risks to communities from the next public health emergency.

Although the actual metrics have shown Trump has accomplished far more for minority groups than the Obama-Biden administration even did - yet the charge of bad stewardship is leveled without metrics is left hanging. What he will do, is missing. He alleges whatever he may do will be driven by "data and science", but does not explain what that might be. In other words, he is set to do whatever Trump did to produce success in an area, yet plagiarize it as his own.

DonaldD

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #918 on: October 14, 2020, 04:08:07 PM »
There are many categories, and almost all claims are generalized assertions without documentation.

As opposed to, say, having a beautiful health plan (OUT WITHIN 2 WEEKS!!!tm) that will protect pre-existing conditions and will be better and cheaper than Obamacare!!!

wmLambert

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #919 on: October 14, 2020, 04:25:14 PM »
There are many categories, and almost all claims are generalized assertions without documentation.

As opposed to, say, having a beautiful health plan (OUT WITHIN 2 WEEKS!!!tm) that will protect pre-existing conditions and will be better and cheaper than Obamacare!!!

Yes. Not to detract from Biden's non-plans - the Trump plans were addressed over and over - yet ignored by the MSM, so I can't condemn you for not knowing them. The basic "Pre-conditions" flap was never a deal-breaker. Before ObamaCare - all insurance contracts did not disallow pre-conditions because they were all covered as they came up. It was only non-existant contractless people without coverage who wanted coverage after the fact. Free Enterprise covered everything - with some catastrophic problems being covered by hospitals gratis. To assuage the ObamaCare promoters, Trump has already committed to issue pre-condition clauses so all private insurers will not refuse them. Of course, like with ObamaCare, doing so will inflate costs, but not so much s the MSM obsesses upon. A one-page bill from the House, endorsed by the Senate and the President will accomplish this. Covering the cost is what made ObamaCare so expensive.

wmLambert

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #920 on: October 14, 2020, 04:31:14 PM »
One MSM, The NY Post, has posted this: https://nypost.com/2020/10/14/hunter-biden-emails-show-leveraging-connections-with-dad-to-boost-burisma-pay/

It appears Hunter was not as stupid about being on the Burisma Board as he appeared to be. He more or less set his own paycheck for using "His Guy" to influence things. He acts like a doofus, but in fact he was charging through the nose for his corruption.

oldbrian

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #921 on: October 15, 2020, 11:48:38 AM »
I tried to go to the NYpost page, but it was so loaded down with ads that I couldn't get it to finish loading.

I assume Hunter gave them some kind of assurance that that there would in fact be some quid for the extra pro quo he was getting?  I mean anyone can [I[claim[/I] to have the ear of someone powerful, but if they can't deliver, why pay them for it, right?

It would be like Trump's daughter going to a company in China and trying to pressure them into doing business with her by pointing out that her dad is now the president.

wmLambert

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #922 on: October 27, 2020, 07:01:23 PM »
Is this true? Seven days before the election and Biden puts a lid on all appearances until the election.

[video=youtube]http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxpTOvihjkw[/video]
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 07:03:40 PM by wmLambert »

wmLambert

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #923 on: October 27, 2020, 07:19:17 PM »
Is this true? Seven days before the election and Biden puts a lid on all appearances until the election.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxpTOvihjkw

TheDrake

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #924 on: October 28, 2020, 08:32:42 AM »
I'm sure it would be much better if he was acting like the maniac Mike pence, who will make as many appearances as possible, no matter how many of his staffers get covid.

Fenring

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #925 on: October 28, 2020, 11:02:53 AM »
It's strangely reminiscent of Hillary's run, where she also curtailed all public appearances and speaking past a certain point.

kidv

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #926 on: October 28, 2020, 11:34:19 AM »
Is this true? Seven days before the election and Biden puts a lid on all appearances until the election.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxpTOvihjkw

This is a youtube video from a guy in his living room on Monday. October 26, which was posted here at 5pm on Tuesday, October 27, after Biden campaigned in Georgia during the day Tuesday (with apparent plans to campaign in Iowa, Georgia, Wisconsin, and Florida this week). Now here on Ornery on Wednesday, people are discussing whether the announcement from the guy in his living room on Monday will impact the race.

I would suggest obtaining news from a news organizations is sometimes helpful to having a common understanding of current status for a common discussion.


msquared

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #927 on: October 28, 2020, 11:57:00 AM »
To answer Williams question.

No, not true.

TheDrake

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #928 on: October 28, 2020, 02:02:38 PM »
Quote
WARM SPRINGS, Ga. (AP) — One week until Election Day, Joe Biden went on offense Tuesday, heading to Georgia, which hasn't backed a Democrat for president since 1992 and pushing into other territory where President Donald Trump was once expected to easily repeat his wins from four years ago.

Just say you were wrong, William, and thank everyone for the information.

msquared

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #929 on: October 28, 2020, 02:07:52 PM »
No he will follow Trump's play book. He just heard, he does not know, we may never know, who knows, but it might be true, it might not, who knows.  It could be true, it might be true, it might not. You never know. Good people say its true. Say it to him all the time, but it might not be true.

wmLambert

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #930 on: October 28, 2020, 06:53:42 PM »
...This is a youtube video from a guy in his living room on Monday. October 26, which was posted here at 5pm on Tuesday, October 27, after Biden campaigned in Georgia during the day Tuesday (with apparent plans to campaign in Iowa, Georgia, Wisconsin, and Florida this week). Now here on Ornery on Wednesday, people are discussing whether the announcement from the guy in his living room on Monday will impact the race.

I would suggest obtaining news from a news organizations is sometimes helpful to having a common understanding of current status for a common discussion.

Dr. Steve Turley is not just some guy in his living room. I asked the question, because I had heard that Biden was going to start campaigning again, and the statement didn't quite ring true. From what I've found out so far, Biden was escorted away from one small event by his handlers because he was in a "mental fog," and the knee jerk reaction was to put that famous lid on his appearances for awhile. The pressure of the campaign forced the lid to come off. The reason assumed was because of the tightening of the race in so many key states, and the need to offset Trump's appearances.

wmLambert

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #931 on: October 28, 2020, 07:13:22 PM »
Now, back to speaking about Biden: Tony Bobulinski spoke with Tucker Carlson for the full hour yesterday, and was completely believable and backed up by his devices and other people vetting his claims. The only questions at this point is why the MSM refuses to publish one of the biggest and solidest stories ever.

Tony was the experienced businessman needed for the Biden crime family to put together the mechanism for receiving graft from overseas. He met personally with Joe Biden, which proves Joe lied through his teeth, acting like he had no idea about Hunter's business dealings. Hunter, Joe, and Jim Biden are all compromised by the Chinese Communist Party. Tony asked if the secretive dealings were dangerous to the political fortune of Joe Biden, but was warned: "You’re just going to bury all of us." When he asked them if they were afraid the whole business would be dangerous, Jim Biden told him: "Plausible Deniability."

Bobulinski said he was constrained to stay mum, until Adam Schiff said he was a traitor, working with Russians. Being a medal-winning Marine officer, and afraid for his family, he decided total transparency was his only option. At this point. There are at least two separate criminal investigations going on against the former Vice President. We always knew Hunter was a scum-bag, and now we know where he got it from.

DonaldD

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #932 on: October 28, 2020, 08:21:18 PM »
Gosh, I heard Trump was peeing into the grandstands, singing about how he hadn't started the fire, before being carried off on the shoulders of a bunch of proud boys, and leaving thousands behind to freeze to death in Omaha.  It's only what I found out so far, mind you.

wmLambert

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #933 on: October 28, 2020, 08:39:29 PM »
Gosh, I heard Trump was peeing into the grandstands, singing about how he hadn't started the fire, before being carried off on the shoulders of a bunch of proud boys, and leaving thousands behind to freeze to death in Omaha.  It's only what I found out so far, mind you.

You just outed yourself as a Troll.  Bobulinski is the real thing, and the legal proceedings are in motion. Unlike your efforts to smear Trump, everything here about Biden is the truth and you know it. There was a dossier paid for by Hillary which she had passed along to deflect her email investigation. We have the email to Obama, and we have the felonies proved in detail. Hillary's crimes were real. Comey let her skate.

We have the Hunter Hard Drive. We have personal testimony of participants in the Biden crimes. There is no conspiracy or smears here by Trump or Trump colleagues. It is all on Biden. ...And you for enabling this. Forget about his dementia, he is dirty.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 08:42:36 PM by wmLambert »