Author Topic: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe  (Read 39265 times)

Kasandra

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #100 on: March 07, 2020, 05:55:37 AM »
You're both just trying to talk yourself into believing something that facts easily contradict.  If Republicans are the party that supports minorities, how come 85% of African-Americans in a recent poll support ANY Democratic candidate over Trump?  How come he has the support of only about 30% of Hispanics?  How come there is only one black Republican in Congress and 3 times as many Hispanic Democrats as Republicans?

Do you think that it's because Republicans just haven't succeeded in getting their message out?

ScottF

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #101 on: March 07, 2020, 11:13:56 AM »
how come 85% of African-Americans in a recent poll support ANY Democratic candidate over Trump?
Because historically they tend to vote democrat as a block? Kanye has some theories.
  How come he has the support of only about 30% of Hispanics?
Open borders?
  How come there is only one black Republican in Congress and 3 times as many Hispanic Democrats as Republicans?
Hard to say. Might be related to the same reason why all the black, Hispanic, and female democratic nominees have been summarily rejected by their party.
Do you think that it's because Republicans just haven't succeeded in getting their message out?
I think decades of propagating a victim/dependency mindset takes time to overcome.

TheDeamon

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #102 on: March 07, 2020, 06:03:05 PM »
You're both just trying to talk yourself into believing something that facts easily contradict.  If Republicans are the party that supports minorities, how come 85% of African-Americans in a recent poll support ANY Democratic candidate over Trump?  How come he has the support of only about 30% of Hispanics?  How come there is only one black Republican in Congress and 3 times as many Hispanic Democrats as Republicans?

Do you think that it's because Republicans just haven't succeeded in getting their message out?

No, it's because you're conflating things, and the Republican message seems tepid or even weak in comparison to "all the things the Democrats are going to help" which don't actually help much, even harm in many cases. A lot of the Democratic "minority empowerment" efforts are the proverbial proof to the idea that 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions." What they claim to do is a very different thing from what they're actually doing.

It takes a lot of time and effort to get people off the proverbial cool-aid and to realize that life is a bit more counter-intuitive than we'd like to believe it to be. That and humans are lazy, they'll almost always favor the easiest option presented to them, the Democrats offer minorities the easy way, the Republicans offer the harder path, so their preference for the Democratic placebos is hardly shocking.

Kasandra

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #103 on: March 07, 2020, 08:11:29 PM »
You realize that you dodged the question.  I simplify it for you:

How come Republicans don't actually have the support of any of those groups?  Whose fault is that?

TheDeamon

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #104 on: March 07, 2020, 09:23:07 PM »
They don't talk about giving away "Free stuff" like the Democrats do. Like I said, people like to take the easy way.

Likewise, "You're going to have to work through this" doesn't resonate as nicely as "It's not your fault, it's theirs, and we're going to give you advantages over everyone else to help you."

Yes, Republicans do end up taking positions where they also end up awkwardly supporting the ability of people to actually be the cause of several of the problems minorities face, as it does indeed happen. Which also results in optics problems for the Republicans that the Democrats gleefully exploit.

If you want a society where freedom of association and freedom of choice exists, you have to allow some level of discrimination to exist. Something many "left-wits" have lost the plot on as they start trying to make micro-aggression and micro-discrimination the next great crusade for stamping out. Tribal behavior is human nature, it's never going away completely.

What you can do on legal basis is limit the scope of how far those discriminatory practices can reach. Which goes back to the optics problems that Conservatives and Republicans have vs the Democrats on that front. The Republicans draw the line on government intervention a LOT a more quickly, and favor true equal rights over "special rights" for certain groups.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 09:25:59 PM by TheDeamon »

Kasandra

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #105 on: March 08, 2020, 05:07:35 AM »
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They don't talk about giving away "Free stuff" like the Democrats do. Like I said, people like to take the easy way.

That is so 2012 :).  I suppose the Republican position would be "taking away stuff".  People who don't have enough should suffer.

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If you want a society where freedom of association and freedom of choice exists, you have to allow some level of discrimination to exist. Something many "left-wits" have lost the plot on as they start trying to make micro-aggression and micro-discrimination the next great crusade for stamping out.

Perhaps you hit on something, even if somewhat inadvertently.  Republicans can't be accused of "micro-aggression" since they openly denounce everything they don't like.  That's why they are held in such low esteem by the groups I mentioned.  I'd counter your "left-wits" epithet with something as pithy, but "wit" is not a conservative strength.  How about "right-nuts" instead?

TheDeamon

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #106 on: March 08, 2020, 06:43:31 AM »
Perhaps you hit on something, even if somewhat inadvertently.  Republicans can't be accused of "micro-aggression" since they openly denounce everything they don't like.  That's why they are held in such low esteem by the groups I mentioned.  I'd counter your "left-wits" epithet with something as pithy, but "wit" is not a conservative strength.  How about "right-nuts" instead?

Left-wit isn't mine, it's Pete's. I agree with the definition he gave for it. As for the extreme right-wingers? I'd call them wing-nuts myself, and in all reality, it can applied in a bi-partisan manner for that matter.

Leftwits are the sanctimonious hooligans that run through with baseball bats.

I don't think anyone on this board meets the criteria for that, but there are plenty of activists and other idiots out there that are certainly trying to feed that dragon.

TheDeamon

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #107 on: March 08, 2020, 07:07:20 AM »
Ah here's the Pete post I actually wanted:

To answer Kasandras question and distinguish leftists from left-wits, a leftist at this point should be able to state what they hope Trump will do in response, whereas a left-wit would feel compelled to wait to see what Trump does before saying he should have done differently.

Kasandra

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #108 on: March 08, 2020, 08:40:55 AM »
It's interesting to see your statement about "left-wits" and then your clarification.

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If you want a society where freedom of association and freedom of choice exists, you have to allow some level of discrimination to exist. Something many "left-wits" have lost the plot on as they start trying to make micro-aggression and micro-discrimination the next great crusade for stamping out.

This sounds like a somewhat general condemnation of so-called lefties who practice cultural derogations of others.  But your clarification (from Pete) says,

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Leftwits are the sanctimonious hooligans that run through with baseball bats.

Surely that refers to the tiny percentage of extremists (who may or may not even exist) who use violence to denounce people they don't like.  Am I right?  That would correspond to conservatives who threaten women at abortion clinics or who protest at mosques or kill blacks openly admitting they are hoping to start a race war.  Then you further clarify what Pete meant,

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To answer Kasandras question and distinguish leftists from left-wits, a leftist at this point should be able to state what they hope Trump will do in response, whereas a left-wit would feel compelled to wait to see what Trump does before saying he should have done differently.

That means that a left-wit is someone who criticizes actions that Trump has taken.  Really?  There's something wrong with criticizing Trump for doing something stupid after he does it?  The same applies to him for lying, attacking those who challenge or even just disagree with him with deeply personal attacks.

If that's what you mean by a "left-wit", why call it by such an insulting name?  To me that sort of person is judging Trump using common sense and simple common decency.  Since you use it as a pejorative, that may be something mainstream Republicans and conservatives simply lack and are proud of.

Kasandra

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #109 on: March 08, 2020, 09:11:03 AM »
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The depends on how you define "Civil Rights" though. Republicans have been unerringly consistent on the matter since the 1850's.

That approach can neatly be summed up as "sink or swim....and don't ask for a life preserver".

Fenring

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #110 on: March 08, 2020, 09:38:30 AM »
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To answer Kasandras question and distinguish leftists from left-wits, a leftist at this point should be able to state what they hope Trump will do in response, whereas a left-wit would feel compelled to wait to see what Trump does before saying he should have done differently.

That means that a left-wit is someone who criticizes actions that Trump has taken.  Really?  There's something wrong with criticizing Trump for doing something stupid after he does it?

Reading comprehension: failure.

Kasandra

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #111 on: March 08, 2020, 12:41:03 PM »
Somebody help me out.  Did I capture the essence of what Pete said?  If not, what did he mean?

DonaldD

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #112 on: March 08, 2020, 01:30:15 PM »
The challenge is that there is no way, short of being the person in question, to know whether that person falls under category one or two - categories which overlap significantly, BTW.

One may certainly be able to state what they would prefer the president do without actually having to broadcast their position on every single extant issue; and it is impossible to know what the president will do before he does it, so we are all compelled "to wait to see what Trump does" before being able to evaluate his action.

Those definitions seem neither helpful nor accurate.

Kasandra

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #113 on: March 08, 2020, 01:38:51 PM »
For truth.

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Those definitions seem neither helpful nor accurate.

Fenring

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #114 on: March 08, 2020, 01:59:28 PM »
For truth.

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Those definitions seem neither helpful nor accurate.

Whether they are helpful or accurate is unrelated to reading them clearly. And no Kasandra, you didn't get it right. Pete's definition that you misread (and Pete could correct me if I'm off-base) seems to be saying that left-wits will wait until after Trump acts not because they reserve judgement until they see the result, but because they will formulate their objection as anti-[whatever action Trump does]. That blank can't be filled until they see what he does, but all they know is they're against it, whatever it is. In other words, it's dishonest (other than being consistent about being against anything Trump does by definition). The clue is in the title "left-wit"; Pete clearly meant it to be a malign term. That you chose to interpret it in a way that sounds complimentary to anti-Trumpers is sort of telling.

Kasandra

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #115 on: March 08, 2020, 02:19:04 PM »
You apparently see your interpretation of what Pete said as something more than opinion, but as a statement of fact.  I assume that's why you characterize my interpretation as a comprehension failure rather than an opinion you don't happen to agree with.

Note that your response serves more to clarify how you read what others write than making the effort to understand what they might be trying to say.  In this case you're applying your spin to what Pete said (which may or may not be what he intended) just as you have repeatedly applied your own spin to what I have said, and have been unwilling to go the extra (whole) 9 yards to actually understand me.  I can say that with some authority, since I am the person who has said what I said and I can and have repeatedly told you that you don't get what I'm saying.  Nevertheless, you persist.

Fenring

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #116 on: March 08, 2020, 02:25:23 PM »
You apparently see your interpretation of what Pete said as something more than opinion, but as a statement of fact.  I assume that's why you characterize my interpretation as a comprehension failure rather than an opinion you don't happen to agree with.

If Pete sees this he'll be free to chime in, since as you say I can only offer an interpretation of his intent but not a factual statement about that. That said I think his intent was pretty obvious. What you are suggesting sounds to me like deconstructive ontology; like whatever you read you can take it apart and say that it has no "content" and is just you experiencing in the way your interpretation reveals. I personally believe that things have more content than merely the perception of each reader, and that they have to find it out - not decide it. From this standpoint while perspective cannot be eliminated, there is also a "right" and a "wrong" answer to certain issues. The "your read on it is an opinion, just like mine" is highly deconstructive and serves mainly IMO to prevent meaningful discussion.

Crunch

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #117 on: March 08, 2020, 02:29:07 PM »
Joe’s rather obvious dementia is starting to get more general notice. Clips from his speech yesterday are circulating and it’s bad, real bad. We’re at the point where the media can still refuse to cover it so it’s whitewashed but once we get into the general and debates it’s not going to be possible to cover for him any more. It’s actually pretty damn sad to watch.

Another thing we gotta get into is his fondling of children and women. The era of me too makes it harder to ignore this. I’m sure the media will try but things like his penchant for exposing himself to female secret service agents will come out as will more things like this:

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A former Secret Service agent assigned to the Vice President Joe Biden residence claims that the Service often had to protect female agents from him.

Speaking on the condition of anonymity, the agent asserted that,  “We had to cancel the VP Christmas get together at the Vice President’s house because Biden would grope all of our wives and girlfriend’s asses.” The annual party was for agents and Navy personnel who were tasked with protecting the Biden family.

“He would mess with every single woman or teen. It was horrible,” the agent said.

According to the source, a Secret Service agent once got suspended for a week in 2009 for shoving Biden after he cupped his girlfriend’s breast while the couple was taking a photo with him. The situation got so heated, the source told Cassandra Fairbanks, that others had to step in to prevent the agent from hitting the then-Vice President.

Additionally, the agent claims that Biden would walk around the VP residence naked at night. “I mean, Stark naked… Weinstein level stuff,” he added.


Kasandra

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #118 on: March 08, 2020, 02:38:16 PM »
You apparently see your interpretation of what Pete said as something more than opinion, but as a statement of fact.  I assume that's why you characterize my interpretation as a comprehension failure rather than an opinion you don't happen to agree with.

If Pete sees this he'll be free to chime in, since as you say I can only offer an interpretation of his intent but not a factual statement about that. That said I think his intent was pretty obvious. What you are suggesting sounds to me like deconstructive ontology; like whatever you read you can take it apart and say that it has no "content" and is just you experiencing in the way your interpretation reveals. I personally believe that things have more content than merely the perception of each reader, and that they have to find it out - not decide it. From this standpoint while perspective cannot be eliminated, there is also a "right" and a "wrong" answer to certain issues. The "your read on it is an opinion, just like mine" is highly deconstructive and serves mainly IMO to prevent meaningful discussion.

Based on the portion of your response that I'm able to understand, then I don't see how you can claim that my interpretation be a comprehension failure.  I say that reminding you that you pretend to be so darned sophisticated about this stuff, but my interpretation of your big words is that you don't actually know much about those things. But if you want to go mano-a-mano on Jacques Derrida, let's step out into the alley and pursue it. (FWIW, I studied phenomenology extensively in college.  I don't say that to make it seem like I'm sort of expert, just that I actually know when to use the term "deconstructive ontology", and this ain't it.)

Or, tell me what this means:  "I'm going to the store for a pack of cigarettes."
« Last Edit: March 08, 2020, 02:42:30 PM by Kasandra »

Kasandra

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #119 on: March 08, 2020, 02:40:10 PM »
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We had to cancel the VP Christmas get together at the Vice President’s house because Biden would grope all of our wives and girlfriend’s asses.

I can't wait to see that on Snopes.  It goes in the monkey bin along with Hillary Clinton on the verge of death in 2016 and Nancy Pelosi being soused at every news conference.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2020, 02:43:47 PM by Kasandra »

TheDeamon

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #120 on: March 08, 2020, 05:12:45 PM »
It's interesting to see your statement about "left-wits" and then your clarification.

Quote
If you want a society where freedom of association and freedom of choice exists, you have to allow some level of discrimination to exist. Something many "left-wits" have lost the plot on as they start trying to make micro-aggression and micro-discrimination the next great crusade for stamping out.

This sounds like a somewhat general condemnation of so-called lefties who practice cultural derogations of others.  But your clarification (from Pete) says,

Quote
Leftwits are the sanctimonious hooligans that run through with baseball bats.

Surely that refers to the tiny percentage of extremists (who may or may not even exist) who use violence to denounce people they don't like.  Am I right?  That would correspond to conservatives who threaten women at abortion clinics or who protest at mosques or kill blacks openly admitting they are hoping to start a race war.  Then you further clarify what Pete meant,

I think the definition is a bit more broad, which is why I dug around for the later post for a broader usage. I find the first use to be consistent with the second, even if the second may not entirely in line with the first. You can pick up anecdotal support for this by going through the forum and seeing it used, vs the very rare occasion where an attempt to define it happened(I only found the two, well three if you include my own post from Feb 2017 but I'm not Pete).

Leftwits are the sanctimonious hooligans that run through with baseball bats.

I don't think anyone on this board meets the criteria for that, but there are plenty of activists and other idiots out there that are certainly trying to feed that dragon.

The more clear usage, that I suspect Pete would agree with, is the Leftwits aren't just the ones literally holding the baseball bat, but the ones knowingly prodding those baseball bat wielders along by distorting facts and information to make it as inflammatory as possible.

As demonstrated here:
I disagree often with Fenring, LR, RightLeft, and others here without giving them “insulting names.” And when I point out that Crunch repeatedly uses Leftwit obfuscation and demonization tactics in defense of Deplorabilly icons and Rightwad memes, I haven’t called him a leftwit or a Deplorabilly. He didn’t come up with the tactic or the idea. He just replicated it from elsewhere, which is all I’ve seen you do. Why take it personally when I’ve insulted the originator of what you merely parroted?

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To answer Kasandras question and distinguish leftists from left-wits, a leftist at this point should be able to state what they hope Trump will do in response, whereas a left-wit would feel compelled to wait to see what Trump does before saying he should have done differently.

That means that a left-wit is someone who criticizes actions that Trump has taken.  Really?  There's something wrong with criticizing Trump for doing something stupid after he does it?  The same applies to him for lying, attacking those who challenge or even just disagree with him with deeply personal attacks.

No it does not. He was very clear on that, and I do not know how someone could be more clear on that matter. A genuine leftist would already have a preferred solution even if they know it is one Trump will never carry out, they can tell you how they would approach the issue and why/how.

A leftwit in contrast doesn't have any kind of solution they can or will elucidate. Instead they will wait for Trump to act first, so they can then go about dismantling what Trump did without needing to worry about defending any potential common ground they may actually have.

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If that's what you mean by a "left-wit", why call it by such an insulting name?  To me that sort of person is judging Trump using common sense and simple common decency.  Since you use it as a pejorative, that may be something mainstream Republicans and conservatives simply lack and are proud of.

A person judging Trump using common sense and common decency isn't a leftwit. For that matter, someone who is simply anti-Trump isn't by definition a leftwit.

A leftwit is someone who actively pursues a leftist agenda(Socialist/Communist, not the more generic Liberal one) and will use every tool at their disposal to generate rhetoric to do so. The said, more generally, I think he would also agree that leftwit and halfwit have a lot in common in each other. While some some leftwits are quite intelligent and exceedingly clever. Most of them are functionally behaving like they are half-wits, they simply parrot and spew forth whatever talking points their leftist luminaries have disseminated, and don't bother to actively process what it is they're sharing, or check for either logical consistency or coherency.

The right-wing has its own cadre of idiots in its ranks, particularly among the religious side, but the leftwits take it to an entirely different level.

TheDeamon

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #121 on: March 08, 2020, 05:19:51 PM »
For truth.

Quote
Those definitions seem neither helpful nor accurate.

Whether they are helpful or accurate is unrelated to reading them clearly. And no Kasandra, you didn't get it right. Pete's definition that you misread (and Pete could correct me if I'm off-base) seems to be saying that left-wits will wait until after Trump acts not because they reserve judgement until they see the result, but because they will formulate their objection as anti-[whatever action Trump does]. That blank can't be filled until they see what he does, but all they know is they're against it, whatever it is. In other words, it's dishonest (other than being consistent about being against anything Trump does by definition). The clue is in the title "left-wit"; Pete clearly meant it to be a malign term. That you chose to interpret it in a way that sounds complimentary to anti-Trumpers is sort of telling.

That was my take on Pete's statement. The leftist is unafraid of staking out a position in advance of Trump acting. The leftwit will never stake out a position in advance of Trump doing something, because if he does something that agrees with the position they staked out, they'll have a reduced ability to attack it.

For someone who is not the leftist, it is hard to tell after the fact which of the two they may be, but it isn't impossible, particularly if you've been interacting with them long enough to be able to tell if the person is being consistent on their positions beyond simple opposition to Trump or other _insert Republican here_ types.

Kasandra

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #122 on: March 08, 2020, 10:31:08 PM »
You're not a leftist, nor certainly a left-wit, so I imagine you can opine on any activity of Trump's before he acts that you choose to, and after as well.  That's what someone of your ilk would think it reasonable to do.  I also opine on lots of things I expect him to act on, and afterwards comment on what he did.  That somehow means that I *am* a left-wit, even though you and I do pretty much the same thing.  The only thing that might separate us is that you are almost unfailingly in agreement with everything he's about to do and has done, whereas I'm more critical.  To be honest, he almost never fails to disappoint me.  That's how you tell the difference between normal people like you and sanctimonious hooligans that run through with baseball bats like me.  QED.

Just be careful you don't find yourself disagreeing with things he's done, or your friends may find that you have become a left-wit.

Fenring

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #123 on: March 08, 2020, 10:59:37 PM »
If you are trying to say that this ailment affects both sides then you are surely correct.

TheDeamon

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #124 on: March 09, 2020, 05:14:39 AM »
The only thing that might separate us is that you are almost unfailingly in agreement with everything he's about to do and has done, whereas I'm more critical.  To be honest, he almost never fails to disappoint me.  That's how you tell the difference between normal people like you and sanctimonious hooligans that run through with baseball bats like me.  QED.

Just be careful you don't find yourself disagreeing with things he's done, or your friends may find that you have become a left-wit.

I don't agree with how he goes about a lot of things. I might agree with the objective, or significant portions thereof, but that is a far cry from being in unfailing agreement with Trump. Or have you missed the numerous occasions I've called the guy a dumpster fire, or even complained about being put in the position of needing to defend him in some cases?

I don't like the guy, but it doesn't make everything he does wrong by default.

Of course, your other side of the coin, is I've also made commentary on historical Presidencies that are often comparable to Trump in a number of various ways. Sure they're not "modern presidencies" but they were American Presidents too. The country survived those clowns, I'm pretty sure it'll be able to survive Trump.

Now as to the underlying issues that brought Trump to power, that might present an entirely different matter with regards to the Two Major Political Parties surviving all of the turmoil currently underway. But again, that's not without precedent, the first 60 years of the Constitutional government saw a few parties rise to power and fall apart before the Republican Party ultimately took its place. The DNC is the only party that dates back to the Jefferson and Adams presidencies. There have been people predicting one of the two parties was going to fly apart "soon" since shortly after Obama took office, of course, in 2009/2010 most thought it would be the Republicans when the Tea Party went after the GOP. Currently, it looks like the Democrats are having their turn in the crosshairs of their political base, only unlike the Tea Party activists with the Republicans, the Socialist leaning activists probably aren't going to be quite so accomodating when it comes to dealing with the more moderate arm of the DNC.

Kasandra

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #125 on: March 09, 2020, 07:18:20 AM »
If you are trying to say that this ailment affects both sides then you are surely correct.

Why call it "sides"?  I'm not on the anti-Trump side, the fundamental religious side, the white supremacist side, the anti-abortion side, the anti-immigrant side, the anti-Muslim side, the anti-Obama side, the anti-Hillary side, the coal industry side, the financial business side, the real estate investment side, the Republican Party side or the America First side.  I'm not on the Democratic Party side, either.  If I'm on any side, it's one that has no name and no cause other than basic morals and common sense.  It's not my fault that Trump manages to fall on the wrong side of that so freakishly often.  Don't blame me for pointing some of those failings when they have important consequences.

Kasandra

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #126 on: March 09, 2020, 08:30:15 AM »
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A leftwit in contrast doesn't have any kind of solution they can or will elucidate. Instead they will wait for Trump to act first, so they can then go about dismantling what Trump did without needing to worry about defending any potential common ground they may actually have.

Good to know I'm not a leftwit after all. I like to think of myself as a good wit.

rightleft22

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #127 on: March 09, 2020, 11:13:04 AM »
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I'm on any side, it's one that has no name and no cause other than basic morals and common sense.

I wonder if this perspective will become a growing movement as I'm coming across more and more people who no longer identify with the right or left.   

ScottF

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #128 on: March 09, 2020, 12:05:23 PM »
I think more people are identifying as independents but humans are tribal by default and rife with bias. Every reasonably intelligent person likes to believe they consider topics in isolation but it's not possible. The Stoics got it right.

That said, attempting to do so is still the best way to operate.

Wayward Son

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #129 on: March 09, 2020, 01:38:25 PM »
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Good to know I'm not a leftwit after all. I like to think of myself as a good wit.

I personally like to consider myself to be simply a wit. :)

Unfortunately, people tell me I'm only half-right about that. ;)

Kasandra

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #130 on: March 09, 2020, 03:53:55 PM »
<groan> Not your better half, apparently.

wmLambert

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #131 on: March 09, 2020, 09:59:20 PM »
...If I'm on any side, it's one that has no name and no cause other than basic morals and common sense.  It's not my fault that Trump manages to fall on the wrong side of that so freakishly often.  Don't blame me for pointing some of those failings when they have important consequences.

No, we CAN blame you for not seeing what is right before your eyes, yet you miss it. Trump is a good man, even though the brain-washed deny that without cause. Disinformation and straw-man arguments are not valid reasons to support your bias. I don't care if the MSM pundits say that Trump is evil incarnate. Those still alive after journalism died in 2007 know better. They actually interview those people who know Trump and say he is a good man. Who you prefer to believe defines you more than anything Trump has said or done in reaction to attacks, that themselves, lack value. The one thing he won't do, that the Left demands, is for him to quietly accept their attacks without answer. Since the MSM will never publicize his answers and vet the attackers fairly, anything that makes the public forum will be slanted.

Kasandra

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #132 on: March 09, 2020, 10:31:36 PM »
I think it's best for all if I no longer engage with you in this forum.

wmLambert

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #133 on: March 09, 2020, 11:10:05 PM »
I think it's best for all if I no longer engage with you in this forum.
It is so frustrating to see and read unsupported bias and disinformation and then be placed into a category wherein no debate is allowed, because your feelings get hurt even though you are wrong and are too fragile to respond on point. Yes, definitely, do not respond. I wouldn't want to bother you. However; if I see disinformation, I will respond to it, even if it is yours. You don't need to respond. I understand. How will I learn anything from someone who has more knowledge in an area than I do, if it is nor presented? I will be respectful, but I do not intend to let disinformation stand unchallenged.

People who know Trump all say he is a good man. Just what do you think is a valid counterpoint?

Wayward Son

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #134 on: March 10, 2020, 12:22:41 PM »
Really?  Do ALL the people who know and work with Trump say he is a good man?  Aren't there a few who disagree? ;)

yossarian22c

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #135 on: March 10, 2020, 12:29:18 PM »
Really?  Do ALL the people who know and work with Trump say he is a good man?  Aren't there a few who disagree? ;)

Well the only ones who disagree are all the people who left the administration and wrote books.

TheDrake

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #136 on: March 10, 2020, 12:58:34 PM »
What about these people?

TheDrake

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #137 on: March 10, 2020, 02:27:44 PM »
Biden just melted down again. His aides were desperately trying to pull him out before he mentioned taking away someone's AR-14. But that was only after telling a man he was "full of sh_".

Kasandra

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #138 on: March 10, 2020, 02:33:45 PM »
I watched a video and read a description of the event. I think he rose up to confront a man who insistently challenged him with lies that have been dispelled repeatedly in the past.  Seemed to me like a good encounter.  He should follow up by asking the guy over for a beer to spend an hour talking about the issue.  Won't happen, but could be good for both if it did.

rightleft22

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #139 on: March 10, 2020, 02:56:27 PM »
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But that was only after telling a man he was "full of sh_".

The new political correctness, People in general prefer the crass.
Biden seems to be getting more popular the less sense he makes when putting words together. Right out of the Trumpism play book. The new normal.

I suspect Biden is being advised to practice pushing back and being "strong" in prep for any debate with Trump.
Its just not him and Trump is gong to mop the floor with him. Still going to be a entertaining debate with both of them talking all over themselves.
 
 

ScottF

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #140 on: March 10, 2020, 03:31:04 PM »
I don't think it will be as entertaining as much as it is sad, re: Biden. For all the mush-mouth stuff Trump can meander into, he typically knows where he is, that he's not running for senate, etc.

The Biden gaffes at first were pretty typical for anyone who's constantly speaking around the country, you're gonna screw up. But over the past few months, he genuinely looks to be in real cognitive decline. The kind of stuff where if it was your parent or grandparent, you might not demand they see someone right away, but it's obvious to everyone in the room that something is not entirely right anymore.

ScottF

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #141 on: March 10, 2020, 03:46:56 PM »
I watched a video and read a description of the event. I think he rose up to confront a man who insistently challenged him with lies that have been dispelled repeatedly in the past.  Seemed to me like a good encounter.  He should follow up by asking the guy over for a beer to spend an hour talking about the issue.  Won't happen, but could be good for both if it did.

He called a union worker "full of s$$t", referred to a firearm that doesn't exist, and asked said union worker if he wanted to "take it outside" (as in, fight? WTF).

If that's a good encounter, I'd suggest you might be happier advocating for Trump because he has plenty of cringy moments you could label as good.

Wayward Son

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #142 on: March 10, 2020, 04:14:15 PM »
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But over the past few months, he genuinely looks to be in real cognitive decline. The kind of stuff where if it was your parent or grandparent, you might not demand they see someone right away, but it's obvious to everyone in the room that something is not entirely right anymore.

Well, I haven't seen it yet.  Of course, I've been listening to Trump for the last three years. :)

Seriously, have you listened to Donald when he's talking off the cuff, like at that news conference for the Corona virus?  As an experiment, try turning off the sound on your TV and reading his words out loud.  It's painful.

Then compare it to his interviews from the 1980s or 1990s.  He has definitely declined significantly over that period.  He's not entirely right anymore, either. :(

Kasandra

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #143 on: March 10, 2020, 04:32:19 PM »
It's curious that for some people every gaffe of Biden's counts more than 1000 Trump self-serving statements, gratuitous lies and dumb remarks made out of pure stupidity.

I think Democrats can run an effective campaign if every day they run a 30 second commercial that is taken from straight-up statements that Trump has made calling other people stupid, ugly or traitors.  If they run out they can balance them with self-praising remarks.  Then on each Sunday they run a partial compendium of all the fields he claims to know more about than anybody else in the world.  All of that would lead up to the day before the election when they run a half-hour of his self-congratulatory remarks about every failed strategy he proposed or carried out.  Well, maybe that should be an hour.

rightleft22

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #144 on: March 10, 2020, 04:43:56 PM »
I don't think it will be as entertaining as much as it is sad, re: Biden. For all the mush-mouth stuff Trump can meander into, he typically knows where he is, that he's not running for senate, etc.

The Biden gaffes at first were pretty typical for anyone who's constantly speaking around the country, you're gonna screw up. But over the past few months, he genuinely looks to be in real cognitive decline. The kind of stuff where if it was your parent or grandparent, you might not demand they see someone right away, but it's obvious to everyone in the room that something is not entirely right anymore.

I have to agree with you.  'entertaining' was sarcastic.

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It's curious that for some people every gaffe of Biden's counts more than 1000 Trump self-serving statements
I agree that Trump does gets the undeserved pass on his gaffs but as per ScottF comments if my parents stated behaving like Biden I'd be worried.
Where as if they behaved like Trump I'd be embarrassed

wmLambert

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #145 on: March 10, 2020, 04:51:01 PM »
... have you listened to Donald when he's talking off the cuff, like at that news conference for the Corona virus?  As an experiment, try turning off the sound on your TV and reading his words out loud.  It's painful.

Then compare it to his interviews from the 1980s or 1990s.  He has definitely declined significantly over that period.  He's not entirely right anymore, either. :(

Unlike those who only follow Trump through anti-Trumpian media sources, I have seen Trump, and he can communicate on a level far above Biden or Sanders. When Biden apologists say he speaks "in a homey fashion that resonates with the public", they are usually deflecting attention from gaffes and rudeness. Trump really does use the vernacular of the people, purposefully for effect. I find it funny that many assign moral value to Biden's profanity, when for years, Democrats have peppered statements with unprintable language into something they did not want publicized. Here, in Michigan, we had Coleman Young, who was a master at profane speech to render his statements unprintable. To broadcast anything he said, editors needed to cut his words apart, which afforded them to present him in a more positive aspect. It was not just his profanity they left on the cutting-room floor - it was anything that was pejorative to the editors' POV.

As for Trump declining in his presentation skills, one must be on another planet to think that. He can turn a phrase that makes the expensive rhetoric the Democrats create through focus groups and think tanks look pale. Jed Bush was utterly destroyed by being called "low-energy." For the past few decades, clichés and talking points have been genned-up by Democrat advisors and have materialized instantly with total horizontal and vertical saturation. Every talking head on Sunday morning talk shows say the exact same words on every channel and every time-slot. It is impossible not to hear them. What is revelatory, is how such things vanish just as instantly, when the researchers realize they don't have the desired effect. (i.e. - like when "gravitas" appeared everywhere, but disappeared the next day when the public realized the opponent had more gravitas than the Dems' golden child.)

Wayward Son

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #146 on: March 10, 2020, 04:59:33 PM »
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As for Trump declining in his presentation skills, one must be on another planet to think that. He can turn a phrase that makes the expensive rhetoric the Democrats create through focus groups and think tanks look pale.

Could you link an interview that demonstrates that?  Because all the ones that I've heard, he sounds disjointed, unfocused, and not on top of things.

And the main reason his words vanish instantly is because they are replaced by another set of words that must be analyzed and explained.

And please, especially, provide some examples of Trump's "gravitas." :)

Kasandra

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #147 on: March 10, 2020, 05:01:34 PM »
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Where as if they behaved like Trump I'd be embarrassed

At first, then afraid, then very afraid.

Wayward Son

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #148 on: March 10, 2020, 05:02:54 PM »

rightleft22

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Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe
« Reply #149 on: March 10, 2020, 05:06:27 PM »
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Unlike those who only follow Trump through anti-Trumpian media sources, I have seen Trump, and he can communicate on a level far above Biden or Sanders. When Biden apologists say he speaks "in a homey fashion that resonates with the public", they are usually deflecting attention from gaffes and rudeness. Trump really does use the vernacular of the people, purposefully for effect.

I find that statement hypocritical. Which sources of media are you viewing Biden and Sanders on? 
Using the same sources for both Trump and Biden I find both their communication problematic

Biden apologist's says his communication style is folksy.
Trumps apologist's say his communications it that of the common man 
No difference IMO both speaking in ways that belittle and undermine intelligence. Of course intelligence, grimmer, consideration... is for the elite not's us regular real folk

Don't you worry your pretty little head I know what I'm saying even if it doesn't sound like it. Tell me I don't and your just a elitist snob