Author Topic: What do we do about China?  (Read 3907 times)

Crunch

  • Members
    • View Profile
What do we do about China?
« on: March 18, 2020, 05:55:09 PM »
So this thing was moving through Wuhan and spreading and as late as mid-January, this was the official position:
Quote
Chinese authorities say the virus does not transmit easily between people.

But they knew the truth:

Quote
Chinese scientists knew about the coronavirus and its deadly effects as early as December — but were ordered by government officials to suppress the evidence, according to a report.

In late December, several genomics companies tested samples from sick patients in Wuhan — the center of the coronavirus outbreak — and noticed alarming similarities between their illnesses and the 2002 SARS virus, the Sunday Times of London reported, citing Chinese business news site Caixin Global.

The researchers alerted Beijing of their findings — and on Jan. 3, received a gag order from China’s National Health Commission, with instructions to destroy the samples.


Quote
The alleged cover-up continued when representatives from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on Jan. 8 visited Wuhan, where officials intentionally withheld information that hospital workers had been infected by patients — a telltale sign of contagion.


Anyone not going along with this was arrested and/or disappeared.

It wasn't until Jan 20th that China finally admitted how contagious it was. It was too late, Wuhan officials had already gone ahead with their annual potluck dinner for 40,000 families and didn't lock down Wuhan until Jan 23rd.  Approximately 5 million people left the city without being screened. Over the next 6 days, China celebrated the Lunar New Year holiday with hundreds of millions of people moving around the country as they visit relatives.

It's only after this that China began to take drastic measures. Of course, it was far too late.

This started in China, was covered up by China, and now it's loose around the globe because of China.

Of course, they don't want anyone to know that:

Quote
China dropped a bombshell on the Western press yesterday as it announced the effective expulsion of all U.S. staff of the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and the Washington Post. It also demanded that both Time and the Voice of America, along with those three organizations, register all their employees in China as foreign agents. Thirteen journalists have been expelled as a result; more are likely to follow as China squeezes the bureaus, quite likely including non-Americans.

And they continue to lie:
Quote
Chinese ambassadors, meanwhile, continue to spread the lie that the virus didn’t originate in China, while state-linked media doubles down on conspiracy theories promoted by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs about an imaginary U.S. military role.

So what is the response here? Anything? Nothing?

DonaldD

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: What do we do about China?
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2020, 07:16:53 PM »
China is a human and civil rights black hole.

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: What do we do about China?
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2020, 07:48:36 PM »
China is a human and civil rights black hole.

I guess the question being posed is more like, are there legal/financial/military repercussions for China basically doing a de facto biological attack on the rest of the world by covering it up initially to cover their own PR game.

ScottF

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: What do we do about China?
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2020, 09:44:22 PM »
I think we take care of the crapfest in our own yard and once we're on the other side of this we take a legitimate stance on vastly reducing our dependency on Chinese goods and services.

yossarian22c

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: What do we do about China?
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2020, 09:54:26 PM »
China is a human and civil rights black hole.

I guess the question being posed is more like, are there legal/financial/military repercussions for China basically doing a de facto biological attack on the rest of the world by covering it up initially to cover their own PR game.

Restart the trade war, well after we get all the reagents for medicines and other feeders supplies we need to create masks, tests and other medical equipment. Part of our super stimulus could be paying companies billions to move production out of China back to the States, and maybe even offering to pay millions for them to move out of China to anywhere else.

A world with China as a super power with lots of leverage over the rest of the world is a little less free for everyone. That and hack all their firewalls and open up the internet to their entire populace. Make sure everyone in China has access to high quality cryptography and VPNs to protect their people from their super surveillance state. Demand UN/red cross inspections of their Wegar "reeducation camps." If we want to go extreme, offer to formally recognize Taiwan*.

But honestly I wouldn't oppose any of those policies prior to China's secrecy imposing a pandemic on the rest of the world.

*I would only do this with the blessing of the Taiwanese government in coordination with Japan, Australia, the UK, and our other pacific allies since there is a chance this could lead to a shooting war in the South China Sea.

LetterRip

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: What do we do about China?
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2020, 07:57:28 PM »
Yet more uniformed conspiracy theories,

I just posted this on facebook,

Quote
I've seen a cospiracy theory about China 'covering up' the initial Coronavirus outbreak. This appears to be based primarily on a lack of understanding of virus handling procedures.

When a virus is sent to labs for sequencing and analysis. Different labs have different levels of pathogen danger they are equipped to handle. When a virus is new, the danger level is unknown and thus some labs get a virus that is more dangerous than they are certified to handle. If this happens, then they will be contacted and directed to destroy the virus and to not handle any further such samples. This occurred with the early coronavirus samples - the group taking the samples sent it out to labs not certified to handle that level of pathogen (because initially it wasn't realized how dangerous a pathogen it was). So those labs were contacted and told to destroy the samples and not to analyse any further such samples (because if a lab handles a virus they aren't equipped to contain - it risks infecting the personnel at the location it was sent to).

A news organization was told about this by a technician at one of the labs - apparently completely unware that this is standard operating procedure. The news organization apparently didn't bother to follow up with any scientists familiar with pathogen standard operating procedures.

What is rather ironic is that the movie Contaigon had this exact scenario of a lab without adequate quarantine facilities being sent a sample of virus that it wasn't equipped to handle and being ordered to destroy the sample. (In the movie the scientist ignored the directive and ended up discovering a cell line that could culture the virus allowing the discovery of a vaccine.

And here is a mention of that scene on wikipedia,

Quote
"University of California, San Francisco (UCSF) professor Dr. Ian Sussman violates orders from Cheever to destroy his samples, and identifies a usable MEV-1 cell culture using bat cells."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contagion_(2011_film)

They didn't in fact know that the virus spread easily between people in December nor even by January 14th (The WHO report on the 14th says,

Quote
ransmission:Thus far, there is no clear evidence for easy or sustained human-to-human transmission among close contacts or health care workers. However, limited human-to-human transmission cannot be ruled out under certain conditions. This may be especially importantto remember giventhe upcoming start of Chinese New Year celebrations, also known as the Spring Festival, beginning January 25, 2020.

http://www.bccdc.ca/resource-gallery/Documents/Statistics%20and%20Research/Statistics%20and%20Reports/Epid/Influenza%20and%20Respiratory/ERV/ERV_Bulletin_14Jan20.pdf

- they didn't know at that time that it could spread from asymptomatic people - thus they were only tracing the people back to when they became symptomatic - which mislead them to think it was not being spread by people.  They were mistakenly thinking it was all animal sourced at that time.

There were interviews by government of scientists who had posted on wechat.  I personally favor 'free flow of information' - but some countries weigh more towards wait until there is definite information before public notification.  They notified WHO within a perfectly reasonable time frame.  There is nothing indicative of a 'cover-up' in that action.

The time between the genome being sequenced (Jan 2) and being made public (Jan 9) is extremely short - way shorter than is typical for this sort of thing.

There may have been cover-up - but most of the claimed evidence is completely wrong.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2020, 08:03:26 PM by LetterRip »

Crunch

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: What do we do about China?
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2020, 10:05:11 PM »
Your Facebook post, confusing a few plot points from a movie scene with what actually happened, then quote the propaganda. Right, ok then.  :o

It’s gonna be interesting to see who defends China going forward.


LetterRip

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: What do we do about China?
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2020, 11:43:44 PM »
Your Facebook post, confusing a few plot points from a movie scene with what actually happened, then quote the propaganda. Right, ok then.  :o

It’s gonna be interesting to see who defends China going forward.

Frankly Crunch, I don't much care what you think.  You failed basic reading comprehension again.  I showed the plot point, because it illustrates the same behavior by movie characters as what the protocols are in real life.

For those interested here are the various Biosafety Levels of facilities and what type of pathogen they are equiped to handle.  Each pathogen is assigned a 'hazard group' (For SARS-CoV-2 it is Hazard Group 3 - HG3).  And then based on the HG deterimines what BSL the pathogen is to be handled at.

Quote
Biosafety level 3 is commonly used for research and diagnostic work involving various microbes which can be transmitted by aerosols and/or cause severe disease. These include Francisella tularensis, Mycobacterium tuberculosis, Chlamydia psittaci, Venezuelan equine encephalitis virus, Eastern equine encephalitis virus, SARS coronavirus, MERS coronavirus, Coxiella burnetii, Rift Valley fever virus, Rickettsia rickettsii, several species of Brucella, chikungunya, yellow fever virus, West Nile virus and SARS-CoV-2.[14]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosafety_level

https://www.hpac.com/iaq-ventilation/article/20925827/biosafety-level-4-labs-up-close-and-personal

New pathogens are by default assigned HG2, which can be handled at BSL-2.  The reclassification (prompted by the discovery that it can be transmitted via aerosol) meant that all BSL-2 facilities with the pathogen on hand are required to dispose of it.  (Standard disposal is destruction via autoclave - but there is guidance for facilities that don't have onsite autoclaves as well).

The guidance is a bit more complicated than that - see the UKs guidance for instance, (Note that some countries such as the UK use CL (Contalnment Level) instead of BSL (Biosafetly Level) - which allows certain work to be done at BSL2/CL2

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/wuhan-novel-coronavirus-guidance-for-clinical-diagnostic-laboratories/wuhan-novel-coronavirus-handling-and-processing-of-laboratory-specimens

The 'plot point' was in the movie because the film extensively consulted experts to get the details right.  They did do some dramatic license (The doubling time wasn't consistent with the stated Ro of 2, for instance) but by and large they were the most accurate film about an pandemic that has been produced and it is a film that lots of people have seen.

Crunch

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: What do we do about China?
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2020, 07:35:59 AM »
 :o

So, yeah, thread about the response to China for their undeniable responsibility for this pandemic.

If I had the power, I’d just tell them to take the roughly $1 trillion in US debt they own and consider it paid in full and we write it off, it’s what they have to kick in to our stimulus package. That’s where I’d start.

I’d also leverage tariffs and internal tax incentives to restore strategic supply chains (e.g. pharmaceuticals, probably a few dozen others) to domestic production.  For non strategic materials, I'd do the same but just to the point it puts Chinese production prices on parity with US. They have to compete on quality.

We might pay a few dollars more but the revitalization of US production and the economic impact of that will help offset that and I’ll gladly pay a couple bucks more so they can’t poison our pets and we’re protected from the next time they pull this stunt.

wmLambert

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: What do we do about China?
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2020, 02:15:10 PM »
...I’ll gladly pay a couple bucks more so they can’t poison our pets and we’re protected from the next time they pull this stunt.

Even if it is not purposeful, government-directed commerce fails. Promoting a "made-at-home" agenda certainly has merits. Our problem has been government intrusion into the free market that produces moot regulations that increases costs to a point where poor nations with no regulations can undercut domestic production costs. Our domestic burdens have the consequence of slowing our manufacturing, and rewarding recalcitrant economies to lower their own standards.

From today's news conference, Trump mentioned the "old broken" system that he is trying to reform, and mentioned doing more at home, which means accepting higher costs for a higher purpose. To do this, the consequence may be for third-world economies to stop cutting corners to stay cheap enough for first-world nations to hire them. Just maybe, the failed systems may get replaced by a more successful free market.

yossarian22c

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: What do we do about China?
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2020, 03:16:37 PM »
If I had the power, I’d just tell them to take the roughly $1 trillion in US debt they own and consider it paid in full and we write it off, it’s what they have to kick in to our stimulus package. That’s where I’d start.

Nice thought, however since US treasury bonds are transferable that doesn't really work. Also would probably cause more problems than its worth in world financial markets to "default" on 1 trillion in treasury bonds.

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: What do we do about China?
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2020, 04:55:49 PM »
Even if it is not purposeful, government-directed commerce fails. Promoting a "made-at-home" agenda certainly has merits. Our problem has been government intrusion into the free market that produces moot regulations that increases costs to a point where poor nations with no regulations can undercut domestic production costs.

Except for the fact that cheap trade with China was a result of government intrusion, not the free market. Even now the shipping rates from China to the U.S. for example are not remotely at par with the shipping rates internally in the U.S. or from the U.S. to China. Basically there's a subsidy going on guaranteeing that not only Chinese manufacturers have dominance, but even now Chinese retailers can ship direct to a U.S. customer cheaper than local American companies can! And this is due to preferential trade agreements to get just this type of result. Like I've been saying for a while, this "advantage" of reverse colonialism has only come back to severely damage America. All of that cheap stuff hasn't come cheap at all.

Crunch

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: What do we do about China?
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2020, 04:52:21 PM »
The story develops:

Quote
As the coronavirus took hold in Wuhan earlier this year, staff from the Chinese government-backed global property giant Greenland Group were instructed to put their normal work on hold and source bulk supplies of essential medical items to ship back to China.

A whistleblower from the company has told the Herald it was a worldwide Greenland effort - and the Sydney office was no different, sourcing bulk supplies of surgical masks, thermometers, antibacterial wipes, hand sanitisers, gloves and Panadol for shipping.

The company even posted its efforts of packing pallets in the company’s Sydney headquarters on social media.

"Basically all employees, the majority of whom are Chinese, were asked to source whatever medical supplies they could," one company insider told the Herald. This exercise went on for weeks through January and February, he said.

They knew what they had on their hands and covered it up while they tried to source every medical supply they could. Pretty *censored*ty thing to do.

Currently, China is supplying faulty test kits to the world, making it more difficult to contain the spread.

I am confident the defenders of China will be here shortly.

LetterRip

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: What do we do about China?
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2020, 01:05:30 AM »
The story develops:

Quote
"Basically all employees, the majority of whom are Chinese, were asked to source whatever medical supplies they could," one company insider told the Herald. This exercise went on for weeks through January and February, he said.


They knew what they had on their hands and covered it up while they tried to source every medical supply they could. Pretty *censored*ty thing to do.

Wuhan was in quarantine January 23.  Anyone paying even slight attention knew it was quite serious in the weeks before that.  The CDC handbook that the Trump administration ignored directed the government to source PPE at that stage.  Just because China wasn't woefully incompetent in their response like the Trump administration doesn't mean they were doing anything inappropriate.

Quote
Currently, China is supplying faulty test kits to the world, making it more difficult to contain the spread.

There has been a single report of inaccurate tests in Spain, that were supplied by a Spanish company, that were sourced from an unauthorized Chinese supplier.  There were a couple of false reports of recieving inaccurate tests in other countries - that were result of incorrect usage not defective tests.  There was also a batch of defective masks sent to Netherlands. 

Quote
I am confident the defenders of China will be here shortly.

I defend against false and innaccurate information regardless of who the false claims are being made about.

Kasandra

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: What do we do about China?
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2020, 04:53:13 AM »
Quote
I am confident the defenders of China will be here shortly.

Justifiable criticism and a balanced perspective aren't bias.

Crunch

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: What do we do about China?
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2020, 08:15:51 AM »
LOL.

Kasandra

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: What do we do about China?
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2020, 08:41:15 AM »
For most people, anyway.

ScottF

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: What do we do about China?
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2020, 12:04:12 PM »
Quote
I am confident the defenders of China will be here shortly.

Justifiable criticism and a balanced perspective aren't bias.

I think crunch's LOL is probably because this statement is an oxymoron. A balanced perspective is an aspirational end state perpetually hampered by bias. Because, humans.

Kasandra

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: What do we do about China?
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2020, 12:14:07 PM »
I doubt that was his intention, but Whatever :).  Aspiration is a lifelong aspiration, it's what you aspire to that makes the difference.