Author Topic: George Floyd  (Read 59327 times)

yossarian22c

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George Floyd
« on: May 29, 2020, 02:50:44 PM »
I typically find myself somewhat sympathetic to the cops in a lot of the killings that garner national attention. This case is by far and away the most egregious I've seen. What the hell was that cop thinking?

I'm glad all the officers present were fired immediately and I don't know how it took this many days to arrest the cop who kneeled on a handcuffed man's neck for several minutes while he slowly suffocated.

When I first heard the story I though potentially he had kneeled on his back while handcuffing him and it was a struggle to get the cuffs set leading to an injury that later caused his death. But there is video showing George being fairly cooperative while being handcuffed then the video showing him on the sidewalk with the cop's knee on the back of his neck while he was basically begging for him to get up. This is far and away the most open and shut murder case I've ever seen, second degree murder seems almost trivial to prove at this point. Its really hard for me to even think of any reasons, other information we don't yet have that would significantly change my opinion of the charge.

Seriati

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2020, 03:06:06 PM »
Agree.  Though I doubt there's even information that we haven't seen that would change my mind on this.

Fenring

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2020, 03:11:28 PM »
The worst thing is the authorities will not get the message. Their take away will be "the people are unruly", and will never take away "hold s*** they are mad and they are right, we have to change." Riots are like complaints in a school: just something for the principle to deal with and make go away so there won't be any trouble.

yossarian22c

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2020, 04:06:16 PM »
... This is far and away the most open and shut murder case I've ever seen, second degree murder seems almost trivial to prove at this point. Its really hard for me to even think of any reasons, other information we don't yet have that would significantly change my opinion of the charge.

Unless evidence is discovered the cop wanted George or someone dead then I could be convinced this was 1st degree murder. But really don't see there being any circumstance where I could understand anything less than a 2nd degree murder conviction.

Kasandra

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2020, 04:08:38 PM »
A quote attributed to the actor Will Smith says, "Racism isn't getting worse; it's getting filmed."  It's harder to deny and distract from what millions of people watched.  Minneapolis and other parts of the country will either see justice or riots, hopefully the former and not both.  But between now and justice will be a long hot summer with lots of pent up energy that has been held in check by stay-at-home guidelines.

Crunch

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2020, 05:03:40 PM »
I typically find myself somewhat sympathetic to the cops in a lot of the killings that garner national attention. This case is by far and away the most egregious I've seen. What the hell was that cop thinking?

I'm glad all the officers present were fired immediately and I don't know how it took this many days to arrest the cop who kneeled on a handcuffed man's neck for several minutes while he slowly suffocated.

When I first heard the story I though potentially he had kneeled on his back while handcuffing him and it was a struggle to get the cuffs set leading to an injury that later caused his death. But there is video showing George being fairly cooperative while being handcuffed then the video showing him on the sidewalk with the cop's knee on the back of his neck while he was basically begging for him to get up. This is far and away the most open and shut murder case I've ever seen, second degree murder seems almost trivial to prove at this point. Its really hard for me to even think of any reasons, other information we don't yet have that would significantly change my opinion of the charge.

I agree, looks very much like murder. Kneeling on his neck like that for so long was utter bull*censored* and the officer should be charged as well as those that stood around and did nothing.

However, there is some validity to investigating the details before arresting. Several years ago there was a video of a white cop with a black teen cuffed, hands behind his back, and laying over the trunk of the police car. Suddenly  the cop started slamming the kid around and beating on him. It looked really bad. Really bad. Turned out the kid  had grabbed a double handful of the cop’s genitalia and was twisting them.

So maybe there was a delay to make sure nothing like that was going on (I cannot possibly imagine what that would be in this case). They were probably about 99.99% sure there wasn’t but it was so high profile they’d be extra sure.

DonaldD

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2020, 05:08:03 PM »
I agree, looks very much like murder. Kneeling on his neck like that for so long was utter bull*censored* and the officer should be charged as well as those that stood around and did nothing.
The three other officers on-site may be charged in the future, but I expect there is not sufficient evidence to charge them at this time.

Crunch

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2020, 06:37:12 PM »
A little more information.

Quote
As officers were taking Floyd to their squad car, he stiffened up and fell to the ground, complaining that he was claustrophobic.

Officers Chauvin and Tou Thoa arrived in a separate squad car and attempted to get Floyd into the car, according to the complaint. While standing outside the car, Floyd began saying that he could not breathe.

Floyd had trouble breathing well before he was taken to the ground. That would really explain the delay in charges. It’s important to understand the actual issue that prevented him from breathing. If he was having a medical emergency for some reason, it could be easy to overcharge the officer and allow him to walk.

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“The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death,” the medical examiner reported.

So now we’re gonna have to determine just how much that restraint contributes to Floyd’s death. Minneapolis is gonna be an ash pile.

TheDrake

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2020, 07:36:12 PM »
Quote
Unless evidence is discovered the cop wanted George or someone dead then I could be convinced this was 1st degree murder. But really don't see there being any circumstance where I could understand anything less than a 2nd degree murder conviction.

It's third degree that's been filed, apparently.

ScottF

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2020, 07:53:06 PM »
Isn't protesting more effective when there is at least one person who disagrees with your cause? What is the prevailing counter-opinion you are protesting? What are its proponents saying?

Fenring

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2020, 08:06:35 PM »
Isn't protesting more effective when there is at least one person who disagrees with your cause? What is the prevailing counter-opinion you are protesting? What are its proponents saying?

I expect they don't believe that there is justice in the system. I would probably have helped if someone important immediately addressed the situation and stated unequivocally that this type of police behavior will not be tolerated. Few people actually believe that those in charge are on the side of the people and of the little guy in cases like this. THAT is the source of your civil disturbance. Fix citizen relations with law enforcement as a first priority.

TheDrake

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2020, 08:13:09 PM »
Isn't protesting more effective when there is at least one person who disagrees with your cause? What is the prevailing counter-opinion you are protesting? What are its proponents saying?

It's the general environment. It's protesting police internal affairs departments that aren't rooting out violent cops. It's protesting training that somehow isn't adequate to keep a cop from planting a knee in somone's throat. It's protesting that right now, there are cops out there who know a cop just like this guy and they say and do nothing. It's protesting that right now, cops are detaining someone for walking into their own house. It's protesting that every time a black or Hispanic person gets pulled over for speeding, they have to wonder if they're going to die. It's protesting that it isn't safe for them to go for a run in a neighborhood that had some break-ins.

And as far as finding one person who disagrees?

Quote
The world is a much better place without George Floyd in it. G.F. was a hood rat. (upvoted 33 times, only downvoted 8 times)

If I was non compliant and aggressive and a threat and had to be put into control I would fully expect law enforcement to do what they have to do for the well being of their own safety and the publics.

Did you witness the entire incident from start to finish, or are you just filling in the blanks according to how you imagine them?

wmLambert

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2020, 09:38:50 PM »
I take this whole issue a little differently. Having worked at the Criminal Justice Institute headquartered in Detroit, I think it is the poor training that is what needs to be fixed. The cop who keeled on Floyd's neck was clueless. He knew George Floyd was far stronger and bigger than he was, so believed he needed an incapacitating hold on him to control him. Most commentators knew better than he did about what he should have done. His colleagues as well, seemed clueless. When Floyd was handcuffed and subdued he should have been placed in the backseat of the police car.

I, personally, have seen the training that the officer should have had, that all too few trainees never get. This will happen again, as long as the State police academies don't train correctly.

TheDeamon

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2020, 10:01:26 PM »
I take this whole issue a little differently. Having worked at the Criminal Justice Institute headquartered in Detroit, I think it is the poor training that is what needs to be fixed. The cop who keeled on Floyd's neck was clueless. He knew George Floyd was far stronger and bigger than he was, so believed he needed an incapacitating hold on him to control him. Most commentators knew better than he did about what he should have done. His colleagues as well, seemed clueless. When Floyd was handcuffed and subdued he should have been placed in the backseat of the police car.

Did you not read further into this thread? Or is Crunch an unreliable source in your world now as well?

A little more information.

Quote
As officers were taking Floyd to their squad car, he stiffened up and fell to the ground, complaining that he was claustrophobic.

Officers Chauvin and Tou Thoa arrived in a separate squad car and attempted to get Floyd into the car, according to the complaint. While standing outside the car, Floyd began saying that he could not breathe.

Floyd had trouble breathing well before he was taken to the ground. That would really explain the delay in charges. It’s important to understand the actual issue that prevented him from breathing. If he was having a medical emergency for some reason, it could be easy to overcharge the officer and allow him to walk.

Quote
“The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death,” the medical examiner reported.

So now we’re gonna have to determine just how much that restraint contributes to Floyd’s death. Minneapolis is gonna be an ash pile.

The "bigger problem" in regards to this scenario is the Police need a LOT of medical training on this topic to really be able to properly address this.

Self-protection for the officer does take precedence, and the fly in the ointment is there are criminals out there who have absolutely no problem with faking an illness or injury if it means it will give them a chance to either escape, or hurt one of the detaining officers.

So when you're in a situation where you may be dealing with someone you cannot be sure is faking it or not...
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 10:05:13 PM by TheDeamon »

Fenring

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2020, 10:38:26 PM »
I take this whole issue a little differently. Having worked at the Criminal Justice Institute headquartered in Detroit, I think it is the poor training that is what needs to be fixed. The cop who keeled on Floyd's neck was clueless. He knew George Floyd was far stronger and bigger than he was, so believed he needed an incapacitating hold on him to control him. Most commentators knew better than he did about what he should have done. His colleagues as well, seemed clueless. When Floyd was handcuffed and subdued he should have been placed in the backseat of the police car.

I, personally, have seen the training that the officer should have had, that all too few trainees never get. This will happen again, as long as the State police academies don't train correctly.

Maybe you were implying this anyhow (maybe not), but I think much of the time it's not actually poor training in the sense that the office is untrained, but it's improper training where they are taught to refer to potentially unruly people as "the enemy", have civilian interactions explained to them in military terms, and have been in some cases specifically sifted in recruitment for being tough and dumb. The whole culture in many precincts is an issue, where toxic ideas like officers are above the law and superior to regular citizens are in the air there.

Not sure if you meant all this, but to me this isn't just a case of "aw shucks, they weren't given the competence they needed." They certainly were given it, it's just that they're competent at things American police officers have no business being competent at.

DonaldD

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2020, 10:41:00 PM »
Self-protection for the officer does take precedence, and the fly in the ointment is there are criminals out there who have absolutely no problem with faking an illness or injury if it means it will give them a chance to either escape, or hurt one of the detaining officers.
Floyd was handcuffed with his hands behind his back. There were two, then 4 officers on-site. 

Police officers might as well just shoot all detainees right away if they aren't even safe in this situation.

Fenring

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2020, 10:42:57 PM »
Self-protection for the officer does take precedence, and the fly in the ointment is there are criminals out there who have absolutely no problem with faking an illness or injury if it means it will give them a chance to either escape, or hurt one of the detaining officers.
Floyd was handcuffed with his hands behind his back. There were two, then 4 officers on-site. 

Police officers might as well just shoot all detainees right away if they aren't even safe in this situation.

Yes, this is yet another of the "1,000 civilians must die to prevent any possible injury to any police officer." All this stuff does is make cops look like cowards and killers. It does not protect them physically, and definitely not publicly.

TheDeamon

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2020, 11:03:08 PM »
Self-protection for the officer does take precedence, and the fly in the ointment is there are criminals out there who have absolutely no problem with faking an illness or injury if it means it will give them a chance to either escape, or hurt one of the detaining officers.
Floyd was handcuffed with his hands behind his back. There were two, then 4 officers on-site. 

Police officers might as well just shoot all detainees right away if they aren't even safe in this situation.

Yes, this is yet another of the "1,000 civilians must die to prevent any possible injury to any police officer." All this stuff does is make cops look like cowards and killers. It does not protect them physically, and definitely not publicly.

Not going to disagree, they crossed lines that shouldn't have been crossed. But in some respects, I suspect the officer in question was a bit incredulous of the claims, and convinced the guy was faking it, and from there the next step in the logic train would be "why would he fake it?" Which leads to two possible answers. He's either not faking it as he has no reason to, or he is faking and intends to try to harm someone. With his size, the officer decided the risks were such that they didn't want to find out the how, so the continued to bear down on the guy to keep him controlled... Right up until he asphyxiated.

Poor decision making, all around. I can understand the likely logic chain they went down, but doesn't mean I'm going to agree with the conclusions they drew. I agree that with backup right there on site, they had every reason to be mindful of his complaints and let him "have his chance to harm them" if that's what he was going to do(in which case he'd likely end up shot to death instead). Risking his health otherwise shouldn't have been on the agenda.

Kasandra

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2020, 05:46:36 AM »
Ain't this a kick in the head...Chauvin and Floyd were co-workers.

Quote
The Minneapolis police officer and the unarmed black man who died in his custody this week both worked as security guards for the same Minneapolis club, according to multiple news reports.

George Floyd and the now-fired police officer Derek Chauvin had overlapping shifts at the El Nuevo Rodeo club, former owner Maya Santamaria told KTSP Eyewitness News. (Chauvin was taken into custody by authorities on Friday.)

"Chauvin was our off-duty police for almost the entirety of the 17 years that we were open," Santamaria told the station. "They were working together at the same time, it's just that Chauvin worked outside and the security guards were inside."

Crunch

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2020, 07:45:56 AM »
Quote
Unless evidence is discovered the cop wanted George or someone dead then I could be convinced this was 1st degree murder. But really don't see there being any circumstance where I could understand anything less than a 2nd degree murder conviction.

It's third degree that's been filed, apparently.

I’m not an expert on Minnesota law but it looks like there is legitimate concern that third degree may be an overcharging that won’t stick. Third degree in Minnesota is about a non-discriminate or non-specific target apparently. For example,  a DUI hits and kills some random person. 

Third degree may not apply here since Floyd was a specific target.

The reason third degree may have been charged is that second and first degree charges require a grand jury indictment and that could take quite some time. When the city is burning, it’s time they don’t have so they just went with whatever sounded the most serious. It’s an obvious and quick way to try to calm things down.

Chauvin, with a good lawyer and a moderately favorable autopsy report, as well as video showing Floyd’s breathing difficulties started before he was on the ground, has a fair chance of walking on third degree murder.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 07:51:18 AM by Crunch »

DonaldD

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2020, 09:55:41 AM »
You think Floyd having breathing difficulties prior to being knelt upon, then Chauvin choosing to restrict his breathing by kneeling on Floyd's neck, and then ignoring continued statements by the victim about breathing problems, will necessarily improve Chauvin's chances?

Crunch

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2020, 09:59:26 AM »
I don’t know if it will or not. I hope not. But a good lawyer can find the cracks and exploit them.

I think the DA may need to upgrade the charges to be in a better position for conviction.

Kasandra

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2020, 10:01:37 AM »
Quote
Maybe you were implying this anyhow (maybe not), but I think much of the time it's not actually poor training in the sense that the office is untrained, but it's improper training where they are taught to refer to potentially unruly people as "the enemy", have civilian interactions explained to them in military terms, and have been in some cases specifically sifted in recruitment for being tough and dumb. The whole culture in many precincts is an issue, where toxic ideas like officers are above the law and superior to regular citizens are in the air there.

More insidiously, it's also who chooses to become a cop and why.  Most see the job as a calling and/or a profession, but some are racist sadists looking for an opportunity to gratify themselves.  I don't want to insist that that applies to Chauvin, but his long record of complaints and his cruelty and indifference in this situation suggest that may be the case.

ScottF

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2020, 11:28:14 AM »
I don’t know if it will or not. I hope not. But a good lawyer can find the cracks and exploit them.

I think the DA may need to upgrade the charges to be in a better position for conviction.

If the cop walks I'm definitely going to burn down a Starbucks. Maybe two. Depends if I can't find someone to play Xbox with that day.

Kasandra

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2020, 11:41:04 AM »
Why a Starbucks?  They're occasionally useful. How about an Arby's?

ScottF

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2020, 11:49:39 AM »
Quote
Maybe you were implying this anyhow (maybe not), but I think much of the time it's not actually poor training in the sense that the office is untrained, but it's improper training where they are taught to refer to potentially unruly people as "the enemy", have civilian interactions explained to them in military terms, and have been in some cases specifically sifted in recruitment for being tough and dumb. The whole culture in many precincts is an issue, where toxic ideas like officers are above the law and superior to regular citizens are in the air there.

More insidiously, it's also who chooses to become a cop and why.  Most see the job as a calling and/or a profession, but some are racist sadists looking for an opportunity to gratify themselves.  I don't want to insist that that applies to Chauvin, but his long record of complaints and his cruelty and indifference in this situation suggest that may be the case.

I think there's probably another category as well. Those that begin with the best of intentions, to protect and serve but - through years of dealing with all manner of depravity and the worst of us, end up damaged. Their brains change and they become unbalanced. It's also probably very difficult to sniff them out through standard psych eval.

wmLambert

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2020, 12:30:15 PM »
...The "bigger problem" in regards to this scenario is the Police need a LOT of medical training on this topic to really be able to properly address this.

No. The point I made was in spite of Floyd's efforts to resist being placed in the patrol car. I've seen the correct way to train police to secure recalcitrant detainees, and putting one's knee on the carotid artery is not what is taught. The contributing factors is that Floyd was stronger and more athletically fit that the officers, but the operative words is that the officers were clueless about how to handle the situation. The police do not need a LOT of medical training to address what they should have done. it is basic criminal genré training, not medical training. The training they should have had covers medical issues. Do we send all these officers to prison for third degree murder? Yes, because they abused Floyd. They did it because they were untrained - and that training is what needs to be addressed.

Let me give an example of correct observation. Remember Armando Galarraga's perfect game that was not awarded him because umpire Jim Joyce blew the call? Everyone blamed Joyce for screwing up - but it was Galarraga who blew it, and he shook Joyce's hand the next day to help lighten the attacks on him. In umpire school, an umpire is taught to watch the bag and listen for the moment when the ball hits the first baseman's glove. That is why first basemen and pitchers are taught to slap at the ball as it comes in, Gallarraga softly cooshed the ball into his glove, so the only sound Joyce heard was the runner hitting the bag. Pitcher's mistake. The umpire did everything right, but took all the fury of the fans.

With Floyd, there are rules that are taught to make arrests safe and legal. If the arresting officers are never taught what to do, then they will be the ones' penalized. What I say, is that their training is the main issue - not their spur-of-the-moment guestimating about what to do.

Even if Derek Chauvin and the other officers hadn't kneeled on Floyd to restrain him, even though he wasn't actively struggling, their judgements go to their own common sense used contemporaneously, when they should have known what to do. It seems Chauvin has a record of being poorly trained and making poor decisions. It will all contribute to charges against them - but the main solution is to improve training.

TheDeamon

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2020, 01:27:09 PM »
Ain't this a kick in the head...Chauvin and Floyd were co-workers.

Quote
The Minneapolis police officer and the unarmed black man who died in his custody this week both worked as security guards for the same Minneapolis club, according to multiple news reports.

George Floyd and the now-fired police officer Derek Chauvin had overlapping shifts at the El Nuevo Rodeo club, former owner Maya Santamaria told KTSP Eyewitness News. (Chauvin was taken into custody by authorities on Friday.)

"Chauvin was our off-duty police for almost the entirety of the 17 years that we were open," Santamaria told the station. "They were working together at the same time, it's just that Chauvin worked outside and the security guards were inside."

That can go two ways. It could be argued it was an unresolved personal grudge between the two men.

Or it could be that during the time they worked together at the Club, and I'm sure they did in fact have occasion to work together, or otherwise be aware of what they other had done in handling an unruly customer. The officer "knew enough" about what George Floyd specifically was capable of that he wasn't taking any chances on letting him possibly get loose.

Still doesn't justify what he did, but it potentially informs why he did what he did.

TheDeamon

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2020, 01:33:52 PM »
You think Floyd having breathing difficulties prior to being knelt upon, then Chauvin choosing to restrict his breathing by kneeling on Floyd's neck, and then ignoring continued statements by the victim about breathing problems, will necessarily improve Chauvin's chances?

It could conceivably do so, depending on the findings of the medical examiner.

Remember, the standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt" and if the ME comes back with a conclusion that indicates the cause of death may be prove to be unrelated to what the officer did(as it had started before the officer did his thing) would certainly be enough to cause reasonable doubt for some jurors.

He might have "slightly contributed" to the process by restricting his ability to breathe, but the ME conclusions may determine that doing so didn't play a conclusive role in the man's death.

Which isn't to mention possible testimony that may be brought in from their former mutual co-workers about George Floyd on the job working security(basically a bouncer by another name) for that night club.

Fenring

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2020, 01:40:45 PM »
With Floyd, there are rules that are taught to make arrests safe and legal. If the arresting officers are never taught what to do, then they will be the ones' penalized. What I say, is that their training is the main issue - not their spur-of-the-moment guestimating about what to do.

Yeah, except I think they are taught what to do, and what they are taught is the wrong thing. Now I appreciate the mercy aspect of your distinction - how much can be really blame someone for having been taught wrongly. And actually this can be expanded to every area of life, where we could at least posit that most bad action occurs due to bad upbringing, bad social conditioning and a toxic social culture, etc etc. It's the classic environment argument. Don't blame the bad actor, blame the environment. To the extent that you may really believe this, there's something to it. But as a conservative I would wager that your general outlook is "each person bears total responsibility for his own choices", and from that standpoint blaming the training could no more excuse this type of scenario any more than (GODWIN APPROACHING) the Nazis could blame their superiors and their culture for their actions.

TheDeamon

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2020, 01:44:57 PM »
With Floyd, there are rules that are taught to make arrests safe and legal. If the arresting officers are never taught what to do, then they will be the ones' penalized. What I say, is that their training is the main issue - not their spur-of-the-moment guestimating about what to do.

Yeah, except I think they are taught what to do, and what they are taught is the wrong thing. Now I appreciate the mercy aspect of your distinction - how much can be really blame someone for having been taught wrongly. And actually this can be expanded to every area of life, where we could at least posit that most bad action occurs due to bad upbringing, bad social conditioning and a toxic social culture, etc etc. It's the classic environment argument. Don't blame the bad actor, blame the environment. To the extent that you may really believe this, there's something to it. But as a conservative I would wager that your general outlook is "each person bears total responsibility for his own choices", and from that standpoint blaming the training could no more excuse this type of scenario any more than (GODWIN APPROACHING) the Nazis could blame their superiors and their culture for their actions.

An important distinction here which you may have picked up in his post. While he cites what clearly is a training deficiency being in play here. He also does clearly state that the officers involved should be charged for what they did. Their lack of proper training does not excuse what they did, it merely informs others as to what needs to be done to prevent it from happening again in the future.

Fenring

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2020, 02:20:18 PM »
An important distinction here which you may have picked up in his post. While he cites what clearly is a training deficiency being in play here. He also does clearly state that the officers involved should be charged for what they did. Their lack of proper training does not excuse what they did, it merely informs others as to what needs to be done to prevent it from happening again in the future.

I don't believe I implied otherwise, so I don't think I was missing that distinction. What I suggested was that his point was that you can't blame someone for their lack of training. Obviously you can blame them for other lack of common sense. But at the same time, that could presumably also be chalked up to lack of training elsewhere in life. Just as an extreme example, I doubt any officer does something like that in a country where you will be executed for that kind of needless aggression. So if you want to go the environmental route to looking for causes and negligence, my point is that it trickles all the way up through society and doesn't just stop at the officers' training.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 02:22:25 PM by Fenring »

DJQuag

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2020, 03:26:48 PM »
Want to say first off I don't approve of the more violent aspects of the protests.

That being said, we've seen one news crew arrested despite showing their press credentials on live television, and another being shot with pepper rounds.

These are events getting attention because they were being filmed live, and because the press is seen as sancrosanct. What is disturbing is that the police involved carried through like it was routine business.

Is this arrogance and unneeded violence something that has become ingrained in police culture? Is stuff like this happening every day to people, minority or not, because the wider culture excuses police malfeasance under the banner of hero worship?

These are the issues that need looking at.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 03:32:34 PM by DJQuag »

DJQuag

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2020, 03:50:37 PM »
And to make it clear to everyone, I can accept that there lies a bias in a lot of police that gets their adrenaline flowing with minority interactions that is absolutely racial. Look up the "social experiment" vids on YouTube where the same team sends a white man open carrying into the street, and then a black man, and the different responses.

Racial bias is real and a problem but sadly it's not the real issue. The real issue is, like Lambert has said, the training. And also the culture. The police culture is malignant. The thin blue line is a concept that has evolved these days into something where no matter how wrong or unlawful an officer's actions are, they get covered up and defended in the name of unity. I'm sure some will say, "But Quag, look at the coverage this is getting! Justice will preveil!"

Yeah, well, the coverage of the actions that killed Floyd only happened because it was on tape, and the culture that let those officers forget that they were dealing with reporters who could live stream their bull*censored*, sadly, it's the norm rather then the exception.

Look at the UK. Their criminals still have guns (outlaw guns, only outlaws have guns) but somehow the vast majority of UK policemen interact with the public calmly and with techniques designed to reduce conflict.

If US police are to be called heroes, they need to take up a higher standard. To go out there and risk their lives, yes, but also not to kill, detain, or abuse innocent people just because they were scared, thought they could get away with it, or enjoyed it. 
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 03:53:15 PM by DJQuag »

TheDeamon

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2020, 03:56:22 PM »
Is this arrogance and unneeded violence something that has become ingrained in police culture? Is stuff like this happening every day to people, minority or not, because the wider culture excuses police malfeasance under the banner of hero worship?

There are two sides to that coin, and they have to deal with both ends, and more frequently the other in balance I'd think.

The Police are viewed as the enemy by a large portion of the population--and not just the criminal element. When you have people working to further perpetuate that image, it develops a large degree of antagonism on the part of the officers who have to deal with it day in and day out.

You also neglect to remember that human nature is to remember the bad things in life rather than the good things. You can do a dozen good things for a person, but you wrong them once, they're going to tend to forget those good things, and only remember that you wronged them. The officers are human, they're going to fall into the same kinds of traps as everyone else.

DJQuag

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2020, 04:05:25 PM »
Is this arrogance and unneeded violence something that has become ingrained in police culture? Is stuff like this happening every day to people, minority or not, because the wider culture excuses police malfeasance under the banner of hero worship?

There are two sides to that coin, and they have to deal with both ends, and more frequently the other in balance I'd think.

The Police are viewed as the enemy by a large portion of the population--and not just the criminal element. When you have people working to further perpetuate that image, it develops a large degree of antagonism on the part of the officers who have to deal with it day in and day out.

You also neglect to remember that human nature is to remember the bad things in life rather than the good things. You can do a dozen good things for a person, but you wrong them once, they're going to tend to forget those good things, and only remember that you wronged them. The officers are human, they're going to fall into the same kinds of traps as everyone else.

We can try to explain and understand wrongdoings, and even factor it into sentencing. The issue is that said wrongdoings are being covered up and explained away without the perpetrators even being confronted with real consequences.

Police these days act like the Catholic Church. (Of old? Honestly don't know if Rome is still just transferring kiddie diddlers to a new diocese.)

A cop gets dismissed from his employment for wrongdoing and he can sign right back on with another department a city or a state away because the previous employer doesn't want to screw them over because of the thin blue line.

DJQuag

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2020, 04:19:50 PM »
And I will say the police might well gain a reputation boost with the population if they just stopped being complete dicks so very often.

I'm white. Italian heritage, but yeah, basically white. Even *I* got a lecture from my father when I turned sixteen and got a car and started going out. About how the police have guns and will shoot you, you need to ask permission for everything and move very slow. The conversation with a black teenager must be so much worse/soul destroying.

And it's being baked into the culture. "Well, they should have just listened to their instructions," say the conservatives.

The fact that anyone can be stopped for almost any reason, and have to bow down and follow possibly contradictive orders like a slave, on pain of death by firearm that will likely by explained away?

That's an issue for any American, black or white.

wmLambert

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2020, 04:29:45 PM »
An important distinction here which you may have picked up in his post. While he cites what clearly is a training deficiency being in play here. He also does clearly state that the officers involved should be charged for what they did. Their lack of proper training does not excuse what they did, it merely informs others as to what needs to be done to prevent it from happening again in the future.

I don't believe I implied otherwise, so I don't think I was missing that distinction. What I suggested was that his point was that you can't blame someone for their lack of training. Obviously you can blame them for other lack of common sense. But at the same time, that could presumably also be chalked up to lack of training elsewhere in life. Just as an extreme example, I doubt any officer does something like that in a country where you will be executed for that kind of needless aggression. So if you want to go the environmental route to looking for causes and negligence, my point is that it trickles all the way up through society and doesn't just stop at the officers' training.

No, you definitely missed the distinction. There is no "environmental excuse" for murdering anyone in this instance. Anyone who has had martial arts training (which includes all police) know not to kneel on the carotid artery. Their problem was in not putting Floyd in the patrol car as they should have. No training course that I put together for the CJI allows them to kneel on him. They didn't kill him on purpose. They killed him because their training didn't stick and that cannot be allowed. If they were trained correctly, there would be no riots. Somehow, they believed their own uninformed action was okay. They were wrong and must pay for doing so.

NobleHunter

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2020, 04:41:21 PM »
Which, by the way, is a pretty good explanation of why the cop is being charged with 3rd degree murder and manslaughter. Murder three* means he knew he was doing something potentially lethal but did it anyways; manslaughter* is if he didn't know what he was doing could be lethal.

*IANAL but found a thread on twitter about it. He's being charged with both in case there isn't enough evidence to convict on murder 3. 

Crunch

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2020, 06:05:30 PM »
And I will say the police might well gain a reputation boost with the population if they just stopped being complete dicks so very often.

I'm white. Italian heritage, but yeah, basically white. Even *I* got a lecture from my father when I turned sixteen and got a car and started going out. About how the police have guns and will shoot you, you need to ask permission for everything and move very slow. The conversation with a black teenager must be so much worse/soul destroying.

And it's being baked into the culture. "Well, they should have just listened to their instructions," say the conservatives.

The fact that anyone can be stopped for almost any reason, and have to bow down and follow possibly contradictive orders like a slave, on pain of death by firearm that will likely by explained away?

That's an issue for any American, black or white.

This biggest problem with race in America is we’re not allowed to talk about race in America unless you accept the framework the white people, white men in particular, are the root of all evil and black partook are their innocent victims, mere bystanders who share no responsibility for the state of racial relations. You watch, I’ll be labeled a racist for actual facts.

Since 2017, nearly twice as many whites have been killed by police than blacks. That despite the fact that whites have far fewer police interactions.

The biggest threat to young black men is not the cops. It’s other black men.

Black culture in America has a massive problem that only they can solve. Drugs, fatherless homes, embracing the status of victims.

Black Americans need to wake up to how they are seen by the people they perpetually put in power. Google Amy Cooper for the demonstration.


DJQuag

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2020, 06:14:22 PM »
Two things, Crunch.

Do you acknowledge that regardless of race, given the absurd amount of deaths via police that there might be an issue with how the police are doing things?

Second, the more white people number sounds good on the face of it, but can you acknowledge the idea of ratios? Theoretically if there are 50 white people in a place, 20 black people, 20 white people see unfortunate consequences and 10 black people do, there's something wrong with that despite more white people getting screwed?

Crunch

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2020, 06:16:53 PM »
Well, what’s is the “absurd amount”?  What number meets that definition?

Second, perceptions are Just that, perceptions. Does that mean perceptions are truth?

I’ll add, we definitely have a problem here. We have the military overseas acting like police officer and police officers here acting like military.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 06:20:46 PM by Crunch »

DJQuag

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2020, 06:30:38 PM »
By absurd amount I mean the amount of Americans being killed by police officers, white or black. Because the cops have been trained to jump at shadows and to shoot to kill at any little thing.

Do you disagree that that's how it is?

Crunch

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2020, 06:35:49 PM »
Just for sake of argument, how many people are killed by police officers every year?

And I’d also point out that it’s likely many of those are justified so it’d be nice to know many are justified and how many are not. If the point is that police are really bloodthirsty murderers praying on the innocent, how many innocents are they killing?

DJQuag

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2020, 06:48:10 PM »
Just for sake of argument, how many people are killed by police officers every year?

And I’d also point out that it’s likely many of those are justified so it’d be nice to know many are justified and how many are not. If the point is that police are really bloodthirsty murderers praying on the innocent, how many innocents are they killing?

It's like midnight here so I need to piss off soon.  And also...I don't know, prove me wrong, but from Google says the US of A executes between 1000 and 1200 people every year in the field via gunshot. Or course, execution via firing squadron is outdated but...

Yeah, I'm quite sure a whole lot *were* justified and we could all dance around the corpses. The ones who weren't are a concern, and also the overwatch.m

Crunch

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2020, 07:52:59 AM »
I hear ya, it was time here as well

So:
Quote
Fatal shootings by police are the rare outcomes of the millions of encounters between police officers and the public. Despite the unpredictable events that lead to the shootings, in each of the past four years police nationwide have shot and killed almost the same number of people — nearly 1,000.

Last year police shot and killed 998 people, 11 more than the 987 they fatally shot in 2017. In 2016, police killed 963 people, and 995 in 2015.

Quote
The most recent data on police interactions, drawn from a Bureau of Justice Statistics survey, shows that in 2015, officers had contact with the public on more than 50 million occasions.
Out of more than 50 million interactions, just under 1,000 result in a fatality. In other words, “ ...those interactions led to fatal shootings about 0.00002 percent of the time.”

The breakdown:
Quote
45 percent white men; 23 percent black men; and 16 percent Hispanic men. Women have accounted for about 5 percent of those killed, and people in mental distress about 25 percent of all shootings.

About 54 percent of those killed have been armed with guns and 4 percent unarmed.

Another data point:
Quote
His review of shooting data in 2015 for armed people shot by police showed that 57 percent of those police killed were reportedly armed with a gun...

So we don’t get a good handle on how many were justified but being armed with a gun tends to imply some justification for things turning deadly. Of course, those armed with knives and other deadly weapons may have been justifiably killed as well. It’s probably safe to say the vast majority of police killings are justified.

It’s very, very difficult to say there’s a specific targeting of blacks (about 230) when nearly twice as many killed by police are white (about 450).

It’s also difficult to say that “cops have been trained to jump at shadows and to shoot to kill at any little thing” when only 0.00002% of their interactions with the public result in a fatality.

A little from the flip side:
Quote
According to statistics reported to the FBI, 89 law enforcement officers were killed in line-of-duty incidents in 2019. Of these, 48 officers died as a result of felonious acts, and 41 officers died in accidents.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 08:02:10 AM by Crunch »

DonaldD

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2020, 10:28:38 AM »
It’s very, very difficult to say there’s a specific targeting of blacks (about 230) when nearly twice as many killed by police are white (about 450).
I don't think more than a small percentage of police are inherently 'bad' for the job, although everybody brings their own biases with them, and in-group thinking is almost always a challenge that needs to be addressed on an on-going basis.

However, since white people in the USA outnumber blacks by almost 6 to 1, that 'only' twice as many whites are killed as blacks means that on average, a black person is 3 times as likely to be killed by police as a white person.  That particular piece of evidence actually does support the idea that police are specifically targeting blacks, as opposed to the supporting the opposite.

Personally, I think the idea of targeting to be off-base, anyway.  There is a systemic issue here, and I doubt police are thinking "hey, let's shoot me some black folks today".

Crunch

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2020, 10:59:25 AM »
Comparing against overall population is pretty misleading around the actual situation. You should compare against police interactions.

Of the roughly 50 million police interactions every year, how many are with black vs white?

DonaldD

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2020, 11:49:45 AM »
You made a point, using a particular fact.  I showed you why that fact does not, in and of itself, support the point you made.

That is not misleading. I also did not suggest that the way you supported your claim was misleading.

Are the dynamics of ethnic minorities in your country complicated?  Yes, they are.

Seriati

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Re: George Floyd
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2020, 01:44:17 PM »
While he cites what clearly is a training deficiency being in play here.

There is no training deficiency in play here.  You're talking about training for police work, which has been ongoing for thousands of years.  You're talking about how to secure suspects which is something that every single police officer has been trained in.  You're talking about killing a man that didn't have to die with a technique that no one has ever been taught to apply in a police setting.

There is zero excuse for officers using techniques where death is a probable result, outside of life or death situations.  Knee on the back?  Could kill someone is a fluke situation.  Knee on the throat?  Will kill someone or potentially cause brain damage if misapplied.  Unless you're literally trying to make him unconscious - which again is using deadly force - why would anyone ever use this technique?

"Training" deficiency is an excuse and a lie to cover for acts that should always have been illegal.  If you want to say he was trained to do this, then I want charges against everyone that wrote that training, approved the use of that training and taught that training.   

Crunch, not sure about the local law, but normally 2nd degree charges require that you prove a specific intent to kill (or at least seriously harm) the person.  First degree also requires the same but that the intent be formed in advance.  So planning to murder someone in the future is first degree.  It's hard to prove that here, or in any case involving an arrest because there is a clear alternative of what the officer's goals could have been.

3rd degree is all that's left a prosecutor can't show the defendant intended to kill or seriously harm the person.  So for example if they were just reckless and disregarded the risk (like a drunk driver), or they were inflamed by serious provocation (like finding your spouse in bed with a lover).  This one though really varies tremendously based on the state in question.  It's entirely possible that this will end up in some  other type of charge.