Protestors vs. Rioters

[DonaldD]

Martin Gugino is openly named by his own mayor as a professional agitator for Antifa.

You should be able to provide a transcript of where the mayor made this statement.  At the very least, you should be able to provide a video recording, specifically of the mayor Byron Brown, making such a statement.

Can you do so, or are you really basing your accusation on a 'report' by the Russian apologist OAN, which itself is based on since discredited/retracted misstatements by other media outlets?

[Crunch]

The Russians! LOL, right. Anyway

Buffalo, N.Y., Mayor Byron Brown (D) said on Friday that he was told a protester who was tackled and arrested by state police earlier in the week was a “major instigator” and an “agitator.”

Brown said state police officers were involved in the arrest of the protester, Myles Carter, last Monday and that the city does not have the ability to take action against them.

“What we were informed of is that that individual was an agitator. He was trying to spark up the crowd of people,” Brown told reporters, according to a recording of his comments reported by radio station WBEN.

“According to what has been reported to me, that individual was a key and major instigator of people engaging in those kinds of activities,” Brown added.

That's from The Hill, reporting from local radio. I suspect you'll start some quick hair splitting here or blame the Russians again.

[Kasandra]

I don't really know the specifics of how this works but the story is that he wasn't jamming the police comms, he was trying to "skim" the information like frequencies from police devices so rioters could eavesdrop on police communications and better coordinate the evening's festivities.

You mean like any of these. Pretty popular and totally legal, right?  Maybe they should ask some of the white nationalist groups which ones they recommend.

I don't think the police took Gugin's cell phone so any evidentiary value there is long gone. The police likely didn't know he was trying to do something like skimming.

Right, it takes an after-the-fact conspiracy theory to make that call, since the police are obviously incompetent.  After they pushed him down, they just left him there bleeding from his ear with a cracked skull because they had more important things to do.

You can't say he was "clearly non-threatening". He is a known instigator. was refusing to follow directions, approaching police, acting very suspiciously, all during a riot. Not a lot there adds up to "clearly non-threatening".

Just watch the video, which you may not have done.  He was standing in front of them when they decided to march forward and pushed him out of their way.  Pretty damn threatening, eh?

Do you know how frigging hard you have to smack your noodle to actually cause blood to come out of the ears? ANd once Gugin hits the ground, he gets all comfortable, crossing his legs.  I've seen people get knocked out (you can see it on recent riot video if you want), they go down and stop moving, they don't get comfortable once down.
...
I dunno man, it all just looks weird as hell. I'm not sure what I see on that video.

You can't see what you're unwilling to see.

[Kasandra]

The Russians! LOL, right. Anyway

Buffalo, N.Y., Mayor Byron Brown (D) said on Friday that he was told a protester who was tackled and arrested by state police earlier in the week was a “major instigator” and an “agitator.”

Brown said state police officers were involved in the arrest of the protester, Myles Carter, last Monday and that the city does not have the ability to take action against them.

“What we were informed of is that that individual was an agitator. He was trying to spark up the crowd of people,” Brown told reporters, according to a recording of his comments reported by radio station WBEN.

“According to what has been reported to me, that individual was a key and major instigator of people engaging in those kinds of activities,” Brown added.

That's from The Hill, reporting from local radio. I suspect you'll start some quick hair splitting here or blame the Russians again.

You're grasping at straws, as usual.

[Crunch]

The Russians! LOL, right. Anyway

Buffalo, N.Y., Mayor Byron Brown (D) said on Friday that he was told a protester who was tackled and arrested by state police earlier in the week was a “major instigator” and an “agitator.”

Brown said state police officers were involved in the arrest of the protester, Myles Carter, last Monday and that the city does not have the ability to take action against them.

“What we were informed of is that that individual was an agitator. He was trying to spark up the crowd of people,” Brown told reporters, according to a recording of his comments reported by radio station WBEN.

“According to what has been reported to me, that individual was a key and major instigator of people engaging in those kinds of activities,” Brown added.

That's from The Hill, reporting from local radio. I suspect you'll start some quick hair splitting here or blame the Russians again.

You're grasping at straws, as usual.

You can't see what you're unwilling to see.

It's funny how quickly your smarmy comments come back to bite you in the ass. That one had to be a new land speed record.

[DonaldD]

Buffalo, N.Y., Mayor Byron Brown (D) said on Friday that he was told a protester who was tackled and arrested by state police earlier in the week was a “major instigator” and an “agitator.”

Brown said state police officers were involved in the arrest of the protester, Myles Carter, last Monday and that the city does not have the ability to take action against them.

“What we were informed of is that that individual was an agitator. He was trying to spark up the crowd of people,” Brown told reporters, according to a recording of his comments reported by radio station WBEN.

“According to what has been reported to me, that individual was a key and major instigator of people engaging in those kinds of activities,” Brown added.

That's from The Hill, reporting from local radio. I suspect you'll start some quick hair splitting here or blame the Russians again.

Are you suggesting that "Martin Gugino" is an alias for "Myles Carter" or vice versa?

Otherwise, well done - you've shown exactly how wmLambert got it wrong.  That you don't realize that you have done so is especially delicious.

[Crunch]

Sorry, too many windows open as I looked around and I clipped the wrong one. NY Post:

The elderly Buffalo protester knocked to the ground by cops in a viral video that has become an international symbol of police brutality was “asked to leave numerous times . . . after the curfew,” the city’s mayor said.

Explaining why he had yet to fire the officers seen pushing Martin Gugino, 75, to the ground, where he hit his head and bled onto the pavement, Mayor Byron Brown said, “I don’t want to jump ahead of the investigation. It is very important for officers to know they are getting due process,” according to WBEN Radio.

Brown referenced violence, vandalism, looting and fires being set during protests in the city, then described a “volatile” situation between protesters and police when Gugino approached the officers.

“He was in the area after the curfew. One of the things that happened before was conflict among protesters and there was a danger of fights breaking out, and police felt it was important to clear that scene for the safety of protesters,” said Brown.

We can go with fact checking sites:

Claim
Buffalo Mayor Byron Brown said that 75-year-old Martin Gugino was being an "agitator" before local police pushed him to the pavement in June 2020.
Rating
True

BREAKING: Buffalo Mayor Byron Brown claims that the 75-year-old protestor violently pushed to the ground by two police officers was an “agitator” and a “key and major instigator” of activities such as vandalism and looting

— US Protests: News & Updates (@USAProtests) June 6, 2020

[DonaldD]

We can go with fact checking sites:

Claim
Buffalo Mayor Byron Brown said that 75-year-old Martin Gugino was being an "agitator" before local police pushed him to the pavement in June 2020.
Rating
True

BREAKING: Buffalo Mayor Byron Brown claims that the 75-year-old protestor violently pushed to the ground by two police officers was an “agitator” and a “key and major instigator” of activities such as vandalism and looting

— US Protests: News & Updates (@USAProtests) June 6, 2020

So much to unpack...

wmLambert literally wrote the following, and you came to his defense by inadvertently posting a rebuttal:

Martin Gugino is openly named by his own mayor as a professional agitator for Antifa.

Next, you link to truthorfiction.com ( ) in order to provide support, somehow, for using the word "agitator", as if that was the only claim wmLambert made (it was not, so your walk-back itself is exceptionally lame):

Buffalo Mayor Byron Brown said that 75-year-old Martin Gugino was being an "agitator" before local police pushed him to the pavement

But, see those quotes around the word "agitator"?  Those convey that a word is being repeated verbatim.  However, Mayor Byron Brown never used that word when describing Gugino.  So the fact check is on the most basic level incorrect.  Sure, truthyorfiction.com could have argued that the Mayor described actions that could be interpreted as agitating, but this 'fact check' did not do that.

Finally, you end your response with a quote making a claim that you yourself already showed as being incorrect in your earlier post

Is it really so hard to say "oops, I was wrong"?  It's probably less embarrassing than what you just did to yourself.

[Kasandra]

“He was in the area after the curfew. One of the things that happened before was conflict among protesters and there was a danger of fights breaking out, and police felt it was important to clear that scene for the safety of protesters,” said Brown.

Well, they cleared him out of the way and stepped right over his unconscious body.  Why do they hurt the ones they love?

[DonaldD]

As for this:

We can go with fact checking sites:

Claim
Buffalo Mayor Byron Brown said that 75-year-old Martin Gugino was being an "agitator" before local police pushed him to the pavement in June 2020.
Rating
True

Did you even open the link?  The site simply repeats the reporting of other media, without actually checking the source material

This 'fact check' can be summarized as follows:

• Somebody claimed "A".
• I notice that people are claiming "A'.
• "A" is true.

The question I have is whether you think this is how all fact checking works.

For instance, this is how Snopes did it.

Notice how Snopes provides a link to the actual transcript, as well as a link to the audio recording of the press conference.  The latter is what is called a 'primary source'.

[Crunch]

Alright,you don’t like it. Keep your narrative if that makes you happy. I’m not here to fight his battles, just tried to answer your questions. Let lambert take it. You keep being ...  Fightin Ron.

[DonaldD]

You're adorable, Crunch 😘

[Crunch]

You’re smarmy. 

[TheDrake]

He's been caught in the King's wood! Execute him!

[rightleft22]

Its been interesting watching how hard some are attempting to change the narrative
- Their will always be bad apples most of the police take their oath to serve and protect seriously with no bias (a few do not represent the whole)
- Their was rioting and looting during the protests all protesters are looters and require heavy policing to stop them. (the few represent the whole)
- George would have died anyway due to his lifestyle so what the cop did isn't criminal - *censored* happens holding police accountable is dangerous to the safety of.... me (blame the victim)
- The Old man was a agitator. He wouldn't have been pushed if he stayed home. It's ok for Cops dressed in the latest protection to push old men because their is no better way to respond. (blame the victim)

Truthiness given birth to Blameiness: If a flaw no matter how small can be found with a victim, its the victim fault... unless its a cop where a flaw is 'just being human' nothing to see here, nothing to address.

The hypocrisy is amazing 

[Crunch]

Its been interesting watching how hard some are attempting to change the narrative
- Their will always be bad apples most of the police take their oath to serve and protect seriously with no bias (a few do not represent the whole)
- Their was rioting and looting during the protests all protesters are looters and require heavy policing to stop them. (the few represent the whole)
- George would have died anyway due to his lifestyle so what the cop did isn't criminal - *censored* happens holding police accountable is dangerous to the safety of.... me (blame the victim)
- The Old man was a agitator. He wouldn't have been pushed if he stayed home. It's ok for Cops dressed in the latest protection to push old men because their is no better way to respond. (blame the victim)

Truthiness given birth to Blameiness: If a flaw no matter how small can be found with a victim, its the victim fault... unless its a cop where a flaw is 'just being human' nothing to see here, nothing to address.

The hypocrisy is amazing

It's equally interesting you only see it one way. The argument to defund the police is "the few represent the whole" so it all has to go. Simultaneously, the left argues that the few rioters do not represent the whole. The exact same "hypocrisy" but you're not going to call that out, it's a one way street.

As for Floyd, I have not seen a single person blame Floyd for his death. I dunno, you might dig up one somewhere but it was pretty unanimous that Chauvin was at fault here. I personally have pointed out how Chauvin might walk away from this because of the lack of forensic evidence but not said he should. In fact, just the opposite.

I don't think anyone is trying to blame the victim in Gugino's case. For me, I'm trying to understand what is happening. Gugino was not there minding his own business, doing nothing wrong, and police just randomly singled him out for attack for no reason at all and that's the anti-police narrative. It's not true but I don't think most of the left really care about what's true and what's not, they got bigger things to be concerned about.

[TheDeamon]

I don't think anyone is trying to blame the victim in Gugino's case. For me, I'm trying to understand what is happening. Gugino was not there minding his own business, doing nothing wrong, and police just randomly singled him out for attack for no reason at all and that's the anti-police narrative. It's not true but I don't think most of the left really care about what's true and what's not, they got bigger things to be concerned about.

I had to shake my head at the national news trying to "disprove" the idea that Gugino didn't plant himself in the path of police. They found people who claim to have known him for years and claim that he's a good man, a man of peace, and a pacifist.

Very nice, very commendable.

Being a pacifist didn't stop MLK from putting himself in the path of riot police, getting beaten and subsequently arrested. So excuse me if I say that report proved nothing one way or the other.

[TheDrake]

Its been interesting watching how hard some are attempting to change the narrative
- Their will always be bad apples most of the police take their oath to serve and protect seriously with no bias (a few do not represent the whole)
- Their was rioting and looting during the protests all protesters are looters and require heavy policing to stop them. (the few represent the whole)
- George would have died anyway due to his lifestyle so what the cop did isn't criminal - *censored* happens holding police accountable is dangerous to the safety of.... me (blame the victim)
- The Old man was a agitator. He wouldn't have been pushed if he stayed home. It's ok for Cops dressed in the latest protection to push old men because their is no better way to respond. (blame the victim)

Truthiness given birth to Blameiness: If a flaw no matter how small can be found with a victim, its the victim fault... unless its a cop where a flaw is 'just being human' nothing to see here, nothing to address.

The hypocrisy is amazing

It's equally interesting you only see it one way. The argument to defund the police is "the few represent the whole" so it all has to go. Simultaneously, the left argues that the few rioters do not represent the whole. The exact same "hypocrisy" but you're not going to call that out, it's a one way street.

As for Floyd, I have not seen a single person blame Floyd for his death. I dunno, you might dig up one somewhere but it was pretty unanimous that Chauvin was at fault here. I personally have pointed out how Chauvin might walk away from this because of the lack of forensic evidence but not said he should. In fact, just the opposite.

I don't think anyone is trying to blame the victim in Gugino's case. For me, I'm trying to understand what is happening. Gugino was not there minding his own business, doing nothing wrong, and police just randomly singled him out for attack for no reason at all and that's the anti-police narrative. It's not true but I don't think most of the left really care about what's true and what's not, they got bigger things to be concerned about.

The activists who sat in the whites only section of diners weren't minding their own business and doing nothing wrong either. I do agree that they didn't attack him for no reason. They attacked him because he was non-violently disobedient.

[Kasandra]

I don't think anyone is trying to blame the victim in Gugino's case. For me, I'm trying to understand what is happening. Gugino was not there minding his own business, doing nothing wrong, and police just randomly singled him out for attack for no reason at all and that's the anti-police narrative. It's not true but I don't think most of the left really care about what's true and what's not, they got bigger things to be concerned about.

I had to shake my head at the national news trying to "disprove" the idea that Gugino didn't plant himself in the path of police. They found people who claim to have known him for years and claim that he's a good man, a man of peace, and a pacifist.

Very nice, very commendable.

Being a pacifist didn't stop MLK from putting himself in the path of riot police, getting beaten and subsequently arrested. So excuse me if I say that report proved nothing one way or the other.

As if there's a proper etiquette for protesting.

[NobleHunter]

As if there's a proper etiquette for protesting.

From everything I've heard the etiquette is to do nothing that possibly draws attention or inconveniences anyone in anyway. 

[rightleft22]

Its been interesting watching how hard some are attempting to change the narrative
- Their will always be bad apples most of the police take their oath to serve and protect seriously with no bias (a few do not represent the whole)
- Their was rioting and looting during the protests all protesters are looters and require heavy policing to stop them. (the few represent the whole)
- George would have died anyway due to his lifestyle so what the cop did isn't criminal - *censored* happens holding police accountable is dangerous to the safety of.... me (blame the victim)
- The Old man was a agitator. He wouldn't have been pushed if he stayed home. It's ok for Cops dressed in the latest protection to push old men because their is no better way to respond. (blame the victim)

Truthiness given birth to Blameiness: If a flaw no matter how small can be found with a victim, its the victim fault... unless its a cop where a flaw is 'just being human' nothing to see here, nothing to address.

The hypocrisy is amazing

It's equally interesting you only see it one way. The argument to defund the police is "the few represent the whole" so it all has to go. Simultaneously, the left argues that the few rioters do not represent the whole. The exact same "hypocrisy" but you're not going to call that out, it's a one way street.

As for Floyd, I have not seen a single person blame Floyd for his death. I dunno, you might dig up one somewhere but it was pretty unanimous that Chauvin was at fault here. I personally have pointed out how Chauvin might walk away from this because of the lack of forensic evidence but not said he should. In fact, just the opposite.

I don't think anyone is trying to blame the victim in Gugino's case. For me, I'm trying to understand what is happening. Gugino was not there minding his own business, doing nothing wrong, and police just randomly singled him out for attack for no reason at all and that's the anti-police narrative. It's not true but I don't think most of the left really care about what's true and what's not, they got bigger things to be concerned about.

The hypocrisy is on both sides as it regards the convenience of labeling the whole by the actions of a few as a excuse not to hold the few accountable.  This has to be addressed however is not a enlargement or issues that should cover up what is a real problem. One wonders why the right is trying so hard to change the narrative using these methods isn't to cover up the real issues the protests are about?

"The argument to defund the police is "the few represent the whole"" I've heard the idea as being expressed that way however if one is willing to lessen their are some good ideas in the concept. Asking the police to 'fix/handle the homeless, mental health and addiction issues isn't working. We are asking to much of the police. Having them not be the 'primary' in these cases and instead assisting those specifically trained to deal with the issues is I think worth trying.

"As for Floyd, I have not seen a single person blame Floyd for his death." no they don't come right out and say it that's not how changing the narrative works. They just suggest things like pointing out a Guy had a drug problem or could be a member of a extreme group. Just wanting to get a clear picture were not suggesting anything by it - wink wink... It works as it does distract from the real issue and conversation.

The cop that pushed the old man isn't a bad man just a bad cop who wasn't able to control his reactions however the job requires a person to maintain control of themselves. I get it, dressed in riot gear and surrounded by 'your brothers' your out to do a job however as a officer of the law more is expected of you.  Sure the push likely wouldn't have been enough to trip up a younger person but was that the best way to respond to a single old man that wasn't threat to a man all geared up. The cop should have done better.

[TheDeamon]

Being a pacifist didn't stop MLK from putting himself in the path of riot police, getting beaten and subsequently arrested. So excuse me if I say that report proved nothing one way or the other.

As if there's a proper etiquette for protesting.

You need to remember those comments were in the larger context of "Whatever his reasons for being there were, it doesn't excuse how the police handled his act of civil disobedience." (failure to abide by curfew in this case)

Much like how the police often handled MLK's protests was not an appropriate response on their part, and helped make the case for MLK.

It still doesn't change the fact that MLK did what he did knowing that a violent response to his actions was likely. I can commend the bravery of the act while also pointing out the situation may not be as "natural" as some people want to think it was.

[rightleft22]

It still doesn't change the fact that MLK did what he did knowing that a violent response to his actions was likely. I can commend the bravery of the act while also pointing out the situation may not be as "natural" as some people want to think it was.

That's true however history has shown that for change to a happen sometimes you have to push the boundaries. Had the police taken the opportunity to respond differently further protests would not have been required.

[TheDrake]

In Albany, MLK was super frustrated because the chief there didn't bite on the poison apple. He arrested people non-violently protesting, but without brutality that MLK wanted to provoke. He eventually found more fertile ground in Alabama.

[Kasandra]

In Albany, MLK was super frustrated because the chief there didn't bite on the poison apple. He arrested people non-violently protesting, but without brutality that MLK wanted to provoke. He eventually found more fertile ground in Alabama.

My reading of the Albany arrests is that King was disappointed because it didn't start a wider movement, not because the arrests weren't violent.

[Crunch]

Its been interesting watching how hard some are attempting to change the narrative
- Their will always be bad apples most of the police take their oath to serve and protect seriously with no bias (a few do not represent the whole)
- Their was rioting and looting during the protests all protesters are looters and require heavy policing to stop them. (the few represent the whole)
- George would have died anyway due to his lifestyle so what the cop did isn't criminal - *censored* happens holding police accountable is dangerous to the safety of.... me (blame the victim)
- The Old man was a agitator. He wouldn't have been pushed if he stayed home. It's ok for Cops dressed in the latest protection to push old men because their is no better way to respond. (blame the victim)

Truthiness given birth to Blameiness: If a flaw no matter how small can be found with a victim, its the victim fault... unless its a cop where a flaw is 'just being human' nothing to see here, nothing to address.

The hypocrisy is amazing

It's equally interesting you only see it one way. The argument to defund the police is "the few represent the whole" so it all has to go. Simultaneously, the left argues that the few rioters do not represent the whole. The exact same "hypocrisy" but you're not going to call that out, it's a one way street.

As for Floyd, I have not seen a single person blame Floyd for his death. I dunno, you might dig up one somewhere but it was pretty unanimous that Chauvin was at fault here. I personally have pointed out how Chauvin might walk away from this because of the lack of forensic evidence but not said he should. In fact, just the opposite.

I don't think anyone is trying to blame the victim in Gugino's case. For me, I'm trying to understand what is happening. Gugino was not there minding his own business, doing nothing wrong, and police just randomly singled him out for attack for no reason at all and that's the anti-police narrative. It's not true but I don't think most of the left really care about what's true and what's not, they got bigger things to be concerned about.

The hypocrisy is on both sides as it regards the convenience of labeling the whole by the actions of a few as a excuse not to hold the few accountable.  This has to be addressed however is not a enlargement or issues that should cover up what is a real problem. One wonders why the right is trying so hard to change the narrative using these methods isn't to cover up the real issues the protests are about?

Because the issues are much more complex than the simplistic framework being created by the left. Have you gotten on your knees in front a black person to beg their forgiveness yet? It's the preferred next step. Did you know people that refuse to come out in open, vocal support of this are being fired from their jobs or even kicked out of school? This is not simple problem with simple solutions and refusing to allow anyone to ask questions or point out alternate opinions is not going to help.

"The argument to defund the police is "the few represent the whole"" I've heard the idea as being expressed that way however if one is willing to lessen their are some good ideas in the concept. Asking the police to 'fix/handle the homeless, mental health and addiction issues isn't working. We are asking to much of the police. Having them not be the 'primary' in these cases and instead assisting those specifically trained to deal with the issues is I think worth trying.

The "defund the police" is about total abolition. Not reform.

"As for Floyd, I have not seen a single person blame Floyd for his death." no they don't come right out and say it that's not how changing the narrative works. They just suggest things like pointing out a Guy had a drug problem or could be a member of a extreme group. Just wanting to get a clear picture were not suggesting anything by it - wink wink... It works as it does distract from the real issue and conversation.

Pointing out that Floyd was not a saint is not a microaggression for justifying his death. You infer that and that's on you.

The cop that pushed the old man isn't a bad man just a bad cop who wasn't able to control his reactions however the job requires a person to maintain control of themselves. I get it, dressed in riot gear and surrounded by 'your brothers' your out to do a job however as a officer of the law more is expected of you.  Sure the push likely wouldn't have been enough to trip up a younger person but was that the best way to respond to a single old man that wasn't threat to a man all geared up. The cop should have done better.

Everyone agrees the cop should have done better. You can argue that all you want and everyone will still agree. If the narrative you want is that Gugino was a harmless old man who simply found himself in the wrong place at the wrong time through no actual agency of his own, and was a doe-eyed, innocent victim,  then that's a nice fantasy but that's all it is.

[TheDrake]

The Albany police chief, Laurie Pritchett, carefully studied the movement's strategy and developed a strategy he hoped could subvert it. He used mass arrests but avoided violent incidents that might backfire by attracting national publicity. He used non-violence against non-violence to good effect, thwarting King's "direct action" strategy. Pritchett arranged to disperse the prisoners to county jails all over southwest Georgia to prevent his jail from filling up. The Birmingham Post-Herald stated: "The manner in which Albany's chief of police has enforced the law and maintained order has won the admiration of... thousands."[10]

King's words:

It is true that the police have exercised a degree of discipline in handing the demonstrators. In this sense they have conducted themselves rather "nonviolently" in public. But for what purpose? To preserve the evil system of segregation. Over the past few years I have consistently preached that nonviolence demands that the means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek. I have tried to make clear that it is wrong to use immoral means to attain moral ends. But now I must affirm that it is just as wrong, or perhaps even more so, to use moral means to preserve immoral ends. Perhaps Mr. Connor and his policemen have been rather nonviolent in public, as was Chief Pritchett in Albany, Georgia but they have used the moral means of nonviolence to maintain the immoral end of racial injustice. As T. S. Eliot has said: "The last temptation is the greatest treason: To do the right deed for the wrong reason."

King's strategy was to provoke a violent reaction with non-violent protest, which would amplify the outrage in public perception and expose the abuse occurring when no one is looking. That's my take on it.

[Kasandra]

The Albany police chief, Laurie Pritchett, carefully studied the movement's strategy and developed a strategy he hoped could subvert it. He used mass arrests but avoided violent incidents that might backfire by attracting national publicity. He used non-violence against non-violence to good effect, thwarting King's "direct action" strategy. Pritchett arranged to disperse the prisoners to county jails all over southwest Georgia to prevent his jail from filling up. The Birmingham Post-Herald stated: "The manner in which Albany's chief of police has enforced the law and maintained order has won the admiration of... thousands."[10]

King's words:

It is true that the police have exercised a degree of discipline in handing the demonstrators. In this sense they have conducted themselves rather "nonviolently" in public. But for what purpose? To preserve the evil system of segregation. Over the past few years I have consistently preached that nonviolence demands that the means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek. I have tried to make clear that it is wrong to use immoral means to attain moral ends. But now I must affirm that it is just as wrong, or perhaps even more so, to use moral means to preserve immoral ends. Perhaps Mr. Connor and his policemen have been rather nonviolent in public, as was Chief Pritchett in Albany, Georgia but they have used the moral means of nonviolence to maintain the immoral end of racial injustice. As T. S. Eliot has said: "The last temptation is the greatest treason: To do the right deed for the wrong reason."

King's strategy was to provoke a violent reaction with non-violent protest, which would amplify the outrage in public perception and expose the abuse occurring when no one is looking. That's my take on it.

Seems like a mixed bag.  The police chief avoided using violent means as a tactic to deny wider public exposure with the goal of thwarting the movement for racist ends. Because of the history of Albany race relations, King staged a non-violent protest expecting a violent response in order to gather public support for civil rights.  In that sense, King wasn't thwarted but instead disappointed and had to move on to another racist southern city to stage a similar protest. 

[Kasandra]

Crunch and wmLambert will appreciate this:

President Trump praised the use of tear gas and other force to disperse Minneapolis protesters, calling it a “beautiful scene” and describing the National Guard’s actions “like a knife cutting butter.”

“I’ll never forget. You saw the scene on that road … they were lined up. Man, they just walked straight. And yes, there was some tear gas and probably some other things,” Trump said in opening remarks at a roundtable on policing and race. “And the crowd dispersed and they went through. By the end of that evening, and it was a short evening, everything was fine.”

[Crunch]

The San Francisco Municipal Transportation Agency has something to say:

And 3. The SFMTA will no longer transport SFPD to anti-police brutality protests.

The SF Police Officer's Association is cool with it:

Hey Muni, lose our number next time you need officers for fare evasion enforcement or removing problem passengers from your buses and trains. Shouldn't be a @SFPD  officer's job anyway

So we’re all clear. As city leaders demand cuts to SFPD, it needs to be clear what SFPD will no longer do. If a ride on an out of service bus to ensure peaceful protests is too offensive, then don’t send us in to provide “security” services to catch fare jumpers.

Sounds like a win-win for the police and the MTA. It'll be interesting if it plays out.

[Crunch]

Related:

The head of Chicago’s powerful police union said any cop in the city who takes a knee during George Floyd protests will be booted, according to a report.

John Catanzara, the new president of the Chicago Fraternal Order of Police, said the gesture, seen throughout the nation during protests over Floyd’s death in police custody in Minneapolis, is tantamount to betrayal of the uniform, he told Fox32 Chicago.

“I don’t believe it’s the time or place to be doing that,” Catanzara told the station. “If you kneel, you’ll be risking being brought up on charges and thrown out of the lodge.”

“Specifically this weekend,” he said. “This was about defunding and abolishing the police officers. And you’re going to take a knee for that? It’s ridiculous.”

 

[Fenring]

Firing someone for that reason is probably against the law. Oh wait, they are the law, never mind citizen.

"We won't tolerate support for the movement protesting us" found in the police archives under D for duh.

[Kasandra]

I'm reading in the news that there have been no credible sightings or claims of any presence of antifa in any city in the country since the protests began.  Despite claims that the organization was behind violence in different cities, no government agency at any level has come forward with any arrests or evidence of antifa action.  No bricks are cached or being thrown, no left-wing gun-toting militant marches, and recent looting is much less than in the early days (looting is not protest).  Recent protests have tended to be orderly, peaceful and focused on forcing change in police law enforcement practices and community welfare issues.  The CHAZ occupation isn't connected to antifa or any other group, and the burning of the Wendy's in Atlanta was a direct response to the latest police killing of Rayshard Brooks.

Anybody want to counter this with evidence to the contrary?

[Crunch]

Firing someone for that reason is probably against the law. Oh wait, they are the law, never mind citizen.

"We won't tolerate support for the movement protesting us" found in the police archives under D for duh.

If you can be fired for not openly supporting the protests, why can’t you be fired for doing it as well?

[Crunch]

Rayshard Brooks. He was “sleeping” in his car in the Wendy’ drive through around 10:30 PM. Breathalyzer put him at .108, well above the legal limit of .08.

It was going down like a textbook DUI arrest when Brooks suddenly started fighting both officers. “Witnesses reports and video shows Brooks wresting away an officer's Taser, and running away as the officers chased him. Security surveillance video footage shows that Brooks then turned toward Rolfe [the arresting officer] while running and shot the stolen taser at Rolfe. At that point, Rolfe fired his gun at Brooks, hitting him. Brooks died in surgery.”

[Kasandra]

Which means?  Why put "sleeping" in quotes?  Tasers aren't considered lethal weapons and have a limited range.  They shot him in the back as he was running away.  FWIW, the lawyers for the family said the cops didn't do a breathalizer test.  Do you know if it was done after they shot him?

[ScottF]

Apparently 7 years ago Key and Peele predicted how people would think police interactions should actually go down. Comedy Central clip, approx 2min long.

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/mb4xpu/key-and-peele-standoff

[wmLambert]

...Why put "sleeping" in quotes?

Why ask about putting "sleeping" in quotes? From my time at CJI, we had a similar case in Detroit where an all-time sleaze-bag became the nation's darling because he was arrested and died on the way to the hospital. He went for the officer's guns, and caused the problem. There were enough street people who testified it was all the policemen's fault, until all the facts came out. Malice Green had sidewalk shrines and a whole Black Lives Matters movement before it existed. The Street people said the police who arrested him were known in the neighborhood as "Starsky and Hutch" because they were so abusive, until it came out they were new to the neighborhood and not old partners. Everything was made up, and it took years to salvage their reputations.

Malice Green was high on drugs and alcohol, and was clawing at the policeman's gun. The policeman used the less lethal weapon to retain his gun, which was his flashlight, Green was subdued and the EMT unit that took him to the hospital saw no reason to hurry because he wasn't in distress. He died on the way, and all medical experts said he died because of the drugs in his system.

All police know this history and know their weapons are not to be exposed. Any attempt to grab them is considered a death sentence.

[wmLambert]

https://i0.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2020/06/Screen-Shot-2020-06-10-at-11.25.12-AM.png?resize=600%2C300&ssl=1

Makes sense to me.

[wmLambert]

Remember Martin Gugino, the elderly AntiFa agitator who fell to the ground when pushed back by the police?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaGb35_X0AAKo48.jpg

That pool of blood was evidently produced by a bag either in his mouth or under the mask. Premeditated all the way.

[Kasandra]

This is the picture Trump has had at least 5 people murdered to prevent you from seeing, absolute PROOF that he has had at least one brain transplant in the last few years.  Some say the first one didn't take and this is the scar that wasn't removed showing the second one.

[TheDeamon]

This is the picture Trump has had at least 5 people murdered to prevent you from seeing, absolute PROOF that he has had at least one brain transplant in the last few years.  Some say the first one didn't take and this is the scar that wasn't removed showing the second one.

More likely to be a hair transplant scar. Or he's wearing a wig and that's a seam.

[Kasandra]

This is the picture Trump has had at least 5 people murdered to prevent you from seeing, absolute PROOF that he has had at least one brain transplant in the last few years.  Some say the first one didn't take and this is the scar that wasn't removed showing the second one.

More likely to be a hair transplant scar. Or he's wearing a wig and that's a seam.

NO! You're not taking this seriously**.  The "scar" is the drainage hole port drilled into his skull and is still used to deliver anti-rejection hormones.  There is PROOF! The surgeries were in Russia and we now know that the chief surgeon, Dmitri Hvorostovsky, died in January by "falling through a window onto a parapet below," a transparent attempt to "tie up loose ends".  The report of his death was intentionally disguised by claiming that he had fallen onto a "parakeet below," which makes no sense.  Joe Biden is holding onto this information and is planning to confront Trump with the TRUTH in their first debate, if he remembers to bring it up.

** It's amazing what just one gin and tonic can help one understand. I wish I knew what wmLambert uses to get to the places he goes.

[DonaldD]

Remember Martin Gugino, the elderly AntiFa agitator who fell to the ground when pushed back by the police?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaGb35_X0AAKo48.jpg

That pool of blood was evidently produced by a bag either in his mouth or under the mask. Premeditated all the way.

wmLambert, aside from the fact you've gone off the deep end - you've made many claims about Gugino, and about what other people have said about Gugino.  For instance, in this post, you were misrepresenting what the mayor of Buffalo said about Gugino:

Martin Gugino is openly named by his own mayor as a professional agitator for Antifa.

You've been challenged to provide a transcript of where the mayor made this statement.  At the very least, you should be able to provide a video recording, specifically of the mayor Byron Brown, making such a statement.  But you continue to avoid supporting this claim.  Now, you are repeating a completely unsubstantiated claim about a planted bag of blood? 

At this point, since you refuse to substantiate your claims, and are now doubling down on them, we have to start asking whether this is purposeful lying, or maybe just a psychological problem.  TheDaemon and Kasandra are ridiculing this latest paranoia on your part, but it's a serious question - not even Crunch is likely to support this one with a straight face.

[Kasandra]

You think 6oz of Bombay Sapphire means I'm not serious? 

[Aris Katsaris]

Remember Martin Gugino, the elderly AntiFa agitator who fell to the ground when pushed back by the police?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaGb35_X0AAKo48.jpg

That pool of blood was evidently produced by a bag either in his mouth or under the mask. Premeditated all the way.

Wow. This is flat-earth level stuff, wmLambert.

You're showing us a photo of the guy bleeding out of his ear, when from the very start the claim was that he was bleeding out of his ear, and in the very video a person was shouting "he's bleeding out of his ear".

Have you even seen the video?

https://www.nytimes.com/video/nyregion/100000007175798/buffalo-police-shove-man-video.html?action=click&gtype=vhs&version=vhs-heading&module=vhs&region=title-area&cview=true&t=24

You want us to think that the guy tried to hide a bag of blood from a hundred policemen surrounding him, but you managed to locate such in a deliberately fuzzed-up photo.

EDIT: Here's some fact checks too:

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/jun/09/viral-image/no-evidence-buffalo-protesters-injuries-were-stage/
https://www.snopes.com/ap/2020/06/09/trump-pushes-conspiracy-theory-about-buffalo-protester/
https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/06/09/trump-gugino-tweet/

[DonaldD]

You want us to think that the guy tried to hide a bag of blood from a hundred policemen surrounding him, but you managed to locate such in a deliberately fuzzed-up photo.

What I especially love about this conspiracy theory is how it depends on not just the police acting criminally, but that both the police and the ambulance techs must also act ineptly.

It requires Gugino to believe that he will be assaulted by police, of course, but he also must believe that none of them would come to his aid, and none of them would attempt to help him breathe by removing his mask once he was pretending to be unconscious.

It then also requires him to believe the paramedics wouldn't find the bag of blood while they recessitated him.

And of course, it actually then requires the police to act criminally and with complete disregard for the safety and well-being of an old man... which even if you believe Gugino is this criminal mastermind, the cops need to act in exactly the same way as they have been accused... It doesn't actually change anything about the cops' guilt.

Unless of course the cops knew Gugino was acting, but decided to leave all evidence of their innocence hidden so they could be later accused convincingly... that's it, they were in on it - maybe it's a false flag operation!!

[yossarian22c]

Which means?  Why put "sleeping" in quotes?  Tasers aren't considered lethal weapons and have a limited range.  They shot him in the back as he was running away.  FWIW, the lawyers for the family said the cops didn't do a breathalizer test.  Do you know if it was done after they shot him?

The officers did a sobriety test. I'm guessing the number came from a blood alcohol test after he was shot.

This is a death fully caused by officers carrying weapons on their person all the time. The man was already able to get a taser away from an officer. If he incapacitates an officer with the taser and takes his gun then the result is the officer could be the one getting shot.

We need to understand this, as long as the police carry a gun on their hip all of the time the police will treat every physical altercation as a life and death struggle. Because someone getting the upper hand on them for a second and taking their weapon could rapidly lead to their death. That's how police have to approach fights.

Video of the incident released by both witnesses and city officials shows Brooks cooperating with officers during a sobriety test. When the two officers move to arrest him, video shows a scuffle among the three men. During the scuffle, Brooks gains hold of one of the officers' stun guns and runs away. The officers chase him, and when Brooks turns around and appears to point the stun gun at Officer Garrett Rolfe, the officer shoots him.

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/06/14/876762714/anti-racism-protests-outcry-after-shooting-in-atlanta-clashes-in-paris-and-londo

Officers potentially could and probably should have handled this better. But this isn't a George Floyd case and likely wasn't something caused by Brooks's race. If anyone fights with police to the point of taking a taser and then trying to shoot the cop with it, don't be surprised when you get shot. If Brooks had thrown the taser down and just run then he's slightly more sympathetic but this isn't the case to make an example of police racism.

CBS Sunday morning news did an excellent take on police violence this past week. First they highlighted the case of a man who died after being tasered 31 times while handcuffed. Second they highlighted how often police pulled guns or used aggressive stop and frisk techniques on black men.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/charles-m-blow-on-race-and-the-power-held-by-police/
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/medical-examiners-under-fire/

This shows white people end up dead at the hands of police sometimes too. But that black men end up having the police treat them very aggressively far too often for absolutely no reason.

[TheDeamon]

This is a death fully caused by officers carrying weapons on their person all the time. The man was already able to get a taser away from an officer. If he incapacitates an officer with the taser and takes his gun then the result is the officer could be the one getting shot.

We need to understand this, as long as the police carry a gun on their hip all of the time the police will treat every physical altercation as a life and death struggle. Because someone getting the upper hand on them for a second and taking their weapon could rapidly lead to their death. That's how police have to approach fights.

Yes and no. There were at least two officers present. Until he somehow managed to incapacitate one of the two and started moving towards the incapacitated cop, there was no reason to consider escalation to deadly force(shooting) in that specific circumstance.

At least, as per what I recall of my own training for (general) security watches. "Deadly force" was only (unconditionally) authorized when somebody was under threat of loss of life, or "national security" was at risk. (And "national security" in that context basically meant that someone was about to potentially gain access to an armory of one kind or another) Of course, there were some other conditionals in play, but none are applicable to that situation.

[Kasandra]

It's not entirely clear to me that the police had cause to arrest him, since he was parked at the time and he had not (apparently) failed a breathalizer test. It didn't look like he failed the sobriety test, either, but he did admit to having (I think) one drink.  That's why I asked earlier when it was done, since the portion of the video I was able to watch before it froze didn't show them performing the test.