Author Topic: Fix it  (Read 710 times)

TheDrake

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Fix it
« on: June 08, 2020, 08:47:28 PM »
We could certainly modify police union rules, or even get rid of them. But they have some legitimacy in protecting police from frivolous false reports by disgruntled criminals.

Citizens could all start wearing cheap body cameras everywhere so we'll see the start of every police interaction instead of just the ones that draw a crowd when it might be retaliation. But privacy advocates will be apoplectic, considering that people freaked out over google glass.

Democrats have introduced sweeping reform knowing that it probably never gets past the Senate committees, let alone the floor. And we all know 100% that Trump, who thinks cops go too easy on people and wants them to dominate the battlespace, is not about to sign it into law.

There's the dubious value of more training, which is likely to erode in the day-to-day "real world" situations.


cherrypoptart

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2020, 10:01:51 PM »
One good thing is that even with all the cameras everywhere at least now we can all wear masks if we want to. Silver linings. One thing I hated about checking out at Walmart, Home Depot, and other places is at the register you are suddenly confronted by a huge face staring back at you from the monitor at the checkout, your own! That's freaky. Like that scene in Terminator 2. Anyway, now with masks, sunglasses, and a ball cap it's all good. If I had a better phone I might record more of what I'm doing outside kind of like in the movie The Final Cut with Robin Williams. Put it in a shirt pocket with the camera facing out and away you go, or maybe a front belt clip. Not as obvious as the Google Glass. As the years go by it's interesting how much you forget ever happened without the pics or video to remind you.

Kasandra

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2020, 06:46:50 AM »
We could certainly modify police union rules, or even get rid of them. But they have some legitimacy in protecting police from frivolous false reports by disgruntled criminals.

Citizens could all start wearing cheap body cameras everywhere so we'll see the start of every police interaction instead of just the ones that draw a crowd when it might be retaliation. But privacy advocates will be apoplectic, considering that people freaked out over google glass.

Democrats have introduced sweeping reform knowing that it probably never gets past the Senate committees, let alone the floor. And we all know 100% that Trump, who thinks cops go too easy on people and wants them to dominate the battlespace, is not about to sign it into law.

There's the dubious value of more training, which is likely to erode in the day-to-day "real world" situations.

You're highlighting all the ways that "police reform" will fail, since they all address the results of apparently built-in behavior and attitude problems.  To "fix" the problems the police have become seemingly entitled to possess, we need to change the nature of the the police force itself.  We have to redefine recruiting, culture, skills, rules of engagement and oversight.  Other countries don't have the same problems we have.  What's different?

Crunch

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2020, 08:22:05 AM »
France's Problem With Police Brutality, US News, Feb. 17, 2017.

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The list of violent and sometimes fatal interactions between police forces and youth in France is long.

Yet again , you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Kasandra

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2020, 08:47:33 AM »
France's Problem With Police Brutality, US News, Feb. 17, 2017.

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The list of violent and sometimes fatal interactions between police forces and youth in France is long.

Yet again , you don’t know what you’re talking about.

The US has a 12.8x higher rate of police killings than France, which has the highest rate of any country in Europe. 

Crunch

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2020, 09:11:43 AM »
Ah, OK. So by "other countries", you meant only Europe, only fatalities, and as counted by wikipedia? Do you want to compare total deaths? Per 10 million? What is that you think will confirm your bias?

Crunch

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2020, 09:23:29 AM »
I'm gonna cross post this:

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Bloody Chicago recorded 18 murders on May 31, making it the city’s deadliest day in 60 years.

The dubious milestone was reached on a day Chicago was roiled by another round of protests and looting following the Memorial Day death of George Floyd in police custody in Minneapolis.

The 18 deaths tallied by the University of Chicago Crime Lab made May 31, 2020 the single-most violent day in six decades, the Chicago Sun-Times reported Monday. The Crime Lab numbers go back only to 1961.

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Overall that weekend, from May 29 at 7pm through May 31 at 11pm, 25 people were killed, while 85 people suffered shooting wounds, according to city data tabulated by the Chicago Sun-Times.

Would it be fair to say that other cities in other states and countries don't have the problems Chicago does?

rightleft22

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2020, 09:29:22 AM »
Watched John Oliver piece on the police. He highlighted a police commissioner talking about what we ask police to do and that its too much.
As we cut back on social services we ask our police to fill the gap. Drug, mental health, domestic... send in the police. Training a cop to deal with all those issues and being good at them isn't realist.

To fix this issue we need to start at the beginning and examine what we expect of our police services and what should they be responsible for. 
As we learned from the virus cutting social services does not in the long run save money or make lives better. Lets start their. Lets take care of the vulnerable through other methods then the police. Not that they might not be involved, but as back up.   

yossarian22c

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2020, 09:53:32 AM »
Watched John Oliver piece on the police. He highlighted a police commissioner talking about what we ask police to do and that its too much.
As we cut back on social services we ask our police to fill the gap. Drug, mental health, domestic... send in the police. Training a cop to deal with all those issues and being good at them isn't realist.

Agree. Also I'm a firm believer in that cops should never patrol alone. Nor should they always patrol with 1 other person. Have squads of around 8 people who patrol together in pairs on a rotating basis. Small enough for team cohesion, large enough to hopefully be able to get out any bad apples. But in higher crime areas police should patrol more frequently on foot or bike. If it wouldn't be safe for 2 officers go out in a group of 4, with a pair on each side of the street, talk to the business owners. See whats going on, cheer on the local basketball game, chat with people on the street, but don't stop and frisk, don't look for a reason to bust everyone you come across. Build the trust so that when someone shoots up a neighborhood witnesses will be more willing to come forward or people will ask the cops to help remove the really bad actors in an area.

But better social services so police aren't constantly dealing with the homeless population or fist fights in schools would be beneficial as well. Take some things off their plate but we still need to expect more of them from a community relations standpoint.

I also think American unions need to refocus their primary drive to be about working conditions, pay, potentially total number of positions, but get away from protecting each individual at all costs. The police union in Minneapolis is trying to get the officers involved in the Floyd case back on the job. Unions should accept firing, with cause, helps everyone involved. Chauvin was probably a crappy co-worker as well. 

I could see a case being made for the two cops who were only a week or so in and out with their training officers. But honestly the fact they could watch Chauvin do what he did and not try to stop him probably means they wouldn't make great cops anyway.

DonaldD

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2020, 10:01:55 AM »
There's a lot of truth in that.  Not to mention that the USA has the highest incarceration rate of any country in the world.  There are serious societal/structural issues that are not specifically things under the control of the police.

yossarian22c

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2020, 10:05:55 AM »
Ah, OK. So by "other countries", you meant only Europe, only fatalities, and as counted by wikipedia? Do you want to compare total deaths? Per 10 million? What is that you think will confirm your bias?

You're the one who brought up France. I guess the US is a lot better than Venezuela, but generally when we want to compare quality of public services issues with other countries we should compare ourselves to our economic and political peers, not a bunch of third world dictators.


Kasandra

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2020, 10:24:36 AM »
Ah, OK. So by "other countries", you meant only Europe, only fatalities, and as counted by wikipedia? Do you want to compare total deaths? Per 10 million? What is that you think will confirm your bias?

Uh, YOU quoted the US News article about FRANCE, so own it.  As my comment mentioned, France has the highest death rate by police of any country in Europe (except Finland, which technically is higher, but had only 3 police killings and two much smaller countries that combined have less than 1 million population and 1 killing each).  Who's comparing the US to 3rd world and dictatorial countries? 

If you don't want to be fact-checked, don't cherry pick facts.

Crunch

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2020, 11:59:41 AM »
Ah, OK. So by "other countries", you meant only Europe, only fatalities, and as counted by wikipedia? Do you want to compare total deaths? Per 10 million? What is that you think will confirm your bias?

Uh, YOU quoted the US News article about FRANCE, so own it.  As my comment mentioned, France has the highest death rate by police of any country in Europe (except Finland, which technically is higher, but had only 3 police killings and two much smaller countries that combined have less than 1 million population and 1 killing each).  Who's comparing the US to 3rd world and dictatorial countries? 

If you don't want to be fact-checked, don't cherry pick facts.

smh. I did pick France, why? Well:
...  generally when we want to compare quality of public services issues with other countries we should compare ourselves to our economic and political peers, not a bunch of third world dictators.
So France was a valid country to look at to see that, in fact, other countries have police brutality problems. It's such an obvious comparison it seems you are willfully playing the fool again.

If you want to claim other countries don't have a police brutality problem, that's on you.

Kasandra

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2020, 12:11:46 PM »
You're using the same kind of logic you and others have used to say that the protests are riots because one fire is lit somewhere and that it's backed by antifa because one report somewhere claims someone said so.  A man drove into a crowd yesterday, got out of his car and shot a protester.  He told police he was a KKK leader.  I guess that means that the protests are actually a KKK rally with black face.

BTW, whatever happened to all of the pallets of bricks that were strategically placed for antifa violence?  Haven't heard a word about them, except that most of the photos of piles of bricks were at construction sites.

So Much Love!

Seriati

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2020, 12:14:58 PM »
It's interesting that in discussion police brutality and bad officers you're arguing about the death rate.  Sure that's easy to find, but it's rare everywhere for the police to kill someone.  I'd be much more curious how often say the French police or the British police beat someone compared to US officers.  How often suspects in custody are beaten or assaulted.  How often those organizations use violence at all.

Focusing on deaths is a tiny tiny part of the puzzle.

Also when you look at the demographics you should ask if they were properly weighted to account for race.  The US is massively diverse compared to some of those countries.  I wouldn't be surprised at all, if in France for example, police interactions with the Muslim minority have dramatically different results than with the majority (we know this difference occurs in the US). 

There are so many factors that change how this plays out in the US that don't apply in Europe.

Kasandra

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2020, 12:18:15 PM »
It's interesting that in discussion police brutality and bad officers you're arguing about the death rate.  Sure that's easy to find, but it's rare everywhere for the police to kill someone.  I'd be much more curious how often say the French police or the British police beat someone compared to US officers.  How often suspects in custody are beaten or assaulted.  How often those organizations use violence at all.

Are you offering to find out and report back?

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Focusing on deaths is a tiny tiny part of the puzzle.

But an effective indicator, as it helps place a value on different categories of human lives.

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Also when you look at the demographics you should ask if they were properly weighted to account for race.  The US is massively diverse compared to some of those countries.  I wouldn't be surprised at all, if in France for example, police interactions with the Muslim minority have dramatically different results than with the majority (we know this difference occurs in the US). 

There are so many factors that change how this plays out in the US that don't apply in Europe.

Again, can you make a case one way or another? 

DonaldD

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2020, 12:18:21 PM »
So France was a valid country to look at to see that, in fact, other countries have police brutality problems. It's such an obvious comparison it seems you are willfully playing the fool again.
Given that, as Kasandra pointed out, France has 1/13 the police killing rate of the USA, does is really follow that France has a problem, based exclusively on your example?  I expect the real point of your post, however, was to suggest that the USA is really not so bad, because, look, other people think that France has a problem.  But if France has a problem, then the USA has a problem that is 13 times bigger, so... not a great argument - that mustn't have been your point.

So, what was your point, then?

Seriati

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2020, 12:26:46 PM »
It's interesting that in discussion police brutality and bad officers you're arguing about the death rate.  Sure that's easy to find, but it's rare everywhere for the police to kill someone.  I'd be much more curious how often say the French police or the British police beat someone compared to US officers.  How often suspects in custody are beaten or assaulted.  How often those organizations use violence at all.

Are you offering to find out and report back?

Nope already tired.  Hard to find the relevant data.  Should make you wonder though why its so easy to find one set and not the other, but it won't because the available data plays into the conclusions you want to reach even if it's not the most relevant to the analysis.

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Focusing on deaths is a tiny tiny part of the puzzle.

But an effective indicator, as it helps place a value on different categories of human lives.

It's a poor indicator, specifically because it DOESN'T place a value on different categories of human lives, while appearing to do so.  It's in fact more likely to be misleading than probabitive without accounting for other factors.  The overall use of violence would be better, but would still need to account for the actual crimes and circumstances to get to a point of reflecting on the value of different categories of human lives.

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Also when you look at the demographics you should ask if they were properly weighted to account for race.  The US is massively diverse compared to some of those countries.  I wouldn't be surprised at all, if in France for example, police interactions with the Muslim minority have dramatically different results than with the majority (we know this difference occurs in the US). 

There are so many factors that change how this plays out in the US that don't apply in Europe.

Again, can you make a case one way or another?

A case for what?

Seriati

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2020, 12:31:02 PM »
Given that, as Kasandra pointed out, France has 1/13 the police killing rate of the USA, does is really follow that France has a problem, based exclusively on your example?  I expect the real point of your post, however, was to suggest that the USA is really not so bad, because, look, other people think that France has a problem.  But if France has a problem, then the USA has a problem that is 13 times bigger, so... not a great argument - that mustn't have been your point.

And this is why its misleading.  If France has 1/13 the killing rate but everyone dead is from the minority group then they have a far bigger problem.  If they have 1/13 the killing rate and 10X the violence rather they have a different bigger problem.

But even at a basic level, the idea that the rates are directly comparable without context is nonsense.  What level of violent crime occurs in the 2 countries how does that interact with the death rate?  You don't know, and from this post its clear that the rate is useful for your arguments without even caring about it's relevance.  Effectively it's cited as proof of substance context free, when the context is required for it to actually be substantively relevant.

Kasandra

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2020, 01:04:06 PM »
I was very confident that Seriati would come through to split that hair, and if he hadn't been able to, to find another hair to start fraying. :)

Seriati

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2020, 01:08:30 PM »
And I was very confident when you found yourself unable to explain a reasonable critique you'd make it personal and ignore the substance.  I guess we each now know the other too well.

Kasandra

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2020, 01:48:07 PM »
And I was very confident when you found yourself unable to explain a reasonable critique you'd make it personal and ignore the substance.  I guess we each now know the other too well.

Well, gee whiz, Seriati.  You should take your hairs to Crunch, since he raised France as the reference point.  If you want to have a debate about how France differs from the US and other developed and undeveloped countries, feel free to write up your analysis instead of hair-splitting without any data to make your case (which was what?).  But you already said the information is hard to come by, so your concerns are noted without further comment.

DonaldD

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2020, 02:09:17 PM »
Given that, as Kasandra pointed out, France has 1/13 the police killing rate of the USA, does is really follow that France has a problem, based exclusively on your example?  I expect the real point of your post, however, was to suggest that the USA is really not so bad, because, look, other people think that France has a problem.  But if France has a problem, then the USA has a problem that is 13 times bigger, so... not a great argument - that mustn't have been your point.

So, what was your point, then? (I put this part back in after you excluded it)

And this is why its misleading.  If France has 1/13 the killing rate but everyone dead is from the minority group then they have a far bigger problem.  If they have 1/13 the killing rate and 10X the violence rather they have a different bigger problem.

But even at a basic level, the idea that the rates are directly comparable without context is nonsense.  What level of violent crime occurs in the 2 countries how does that interact with the death rate?  You don't know, and from this post its clear that the rate is useful for your arguments without even caring about it's relevance.  Effectively it's cited as proof of substance context free, when the context is required for it to actually be substantively relevant.
That's as may be - but Crunch was the one making the point, using that data.  At a basic level, it fails to make his perceived point, which is why i asked what point he was attempting to make.  I'm surprised you are calling out others for pointing this out, as opposed to either asking Crunch to clarify his data, or providing the data yourself.

Seriati

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2020, 02:44:42 PM »
Okay, to be fair Crunch didn't make a point either, he just argued with an irrelevant sound bite.  Doesn't excuse arguing back in the same manner.  Though it seems not to be in vogue today it's a pretty basic principal, two wrongs don't make a right.  You should remember that no matter who you are responding to, other people are reading your arguments as well, so make them good and meaningful and address rather than ignore the problems.

Kasandra

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2020, 04:56:12 AM »
Okay, to be fair Crunch didn't make a point either, he just argued with an irrelevant sound bite.  Doesn't excuse arguing back in the same manner.  Though it seems not to be in vogue today it's a pretty basic principal, two wrongs don't make a right.  You should remember that no matter who you are responding to, other people are reading your arguments as well, so make them good and meaningful and address rather than ignore the problems.

To be fair, Crunch often uses straw-man arguments with no greater purpose than to insinuate that someone (often moi) is stupid.  When he's unable to find a fig leaf to cover his typically small point, he says as much directly.  As in this case, he doesn't really have any point to make other than that. 

You appear in your post above to admit that that is the case after having done pretty much the same thing to attack moi.  In "rebutting" my response to his post, you quite amazingly confess when asked to support your argument that you couldn't: "Nope already t[ri]ed.  Hard to find the relevant data."  You talk prettier, but don't pretend that you and Crunch aren't on the same tag team.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 04:59:41 AM by Kasandra »

Crunch

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Re: Fix it
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2020, 06:33:53 PM »
Moi? You used “moi” twice in the same post.