Author Topic: The CHAZ  (Read 2124 times)

Crunch

  • Members
    • View Profile
The CHAZ
« on: June 10, 2020, 11:29:33 AM »
The CHAZ, or Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone is a reality:
Quote
The precinct building is now boarded up. The barricaded zone has been declared the "Free Capitol Hill Zone" or "Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone" according to area activists.

Quote
While city authorities may expect protesters to disperse eventually, however, many have taken to social media to express their intentions to keep the "Autonomous Zone" going. One user tweeted, "The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone. Folks in Seattle have secured six blocks of city atm, barricaded it, and gotten local businesses and residents to agree to, well, disaffiliate from Seattle basically. It's a flux state in the making," while another wrote, "Here’s what the CHAZ (Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone) looks like. Hot dog stands have been set up inside as have tents. A speaker is addressing a crowd of a couple of hundred protesters. #seattleprotest."

The police are out. The government is out. It's basically a nation within a state albeit a nascent one. Could it spread? I'm sure Minneapolis is open to it. Probably New York. And just about anywhere in California. At what point do these things become an insurrection? Have we already passed that?

What's the most likely thing to derail it? Wokeness.

Quote
However, many are reminding that Seattle is part of the Duwamish aboriginal territory. One user tweeted, "As people are using this opportunity to promote themselves and co-opt the movement of the people we’ve heard talk on the streets of ceding the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone back to the Duwamish Tribe."

Another wrote, "It’s a victory for #seattleprotests to take the precinct, please also acknowledge that the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone is still occupying stolen Duwamish land. Please also don’t forget why we are there in the first place, for the #BlackLivesMatter movement."

A user tweeted, "If the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone ends up being a commune for white folks instead of a space for the BIPOC community, then you’re still a bunch of colonizing performative allies #seattleprotests."

LMAO. It'll be interesting to watch the woke navigate the minefield of their ideology.

They're obviously not planning on stopping:

Quote
Hundreds of protesters swarmed city hall in Seattle Tuesday night to demand Mayor Jenny Durkan’s resignation.

And why should they stop? They have "official" support:
Quote
The crowd chanted “Hey, hey! Ho, ho! Jenny Durkan’s got to go!” during the roughly hour-long takeover, led by Councilwoman Kshama Sawant.

But, Sawant has a solution at least:
Quote
“When you talk about black rights, you can’t leave out the horrific gentrification in Seattle,” Sawant told the newspaper.

She placed the blame on Amazon, which is headquartered in Seattle.

“Taxing Amazon is absolutely a part of black rights … It’s about actually putting dollars on the table to address inequities affecting the black community,” Sawant said.

It always seems to come back to taxes.

wmLambert

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2020, 01:27:03 PM »
...It always seems to come back to taxes.

Well, sure - but it has always been about using victimization as a weapon. "Putting a knee to the throat is okay when we're the ones doing it."

yossarian22c

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2020, 01:37:39 PM »
...It always seems to come back to taxes.

Well, sure - but it has always been about using victimization as a weapon. "Putting a knee to the throat is okay when we're the ones doing it."

Because literally being killed in the street is equivalent to not giving state and local tax breaks to the biggest corps in the world so they don't move their HQ to another city or state willing to give them a break.

Crunch

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2020, 07:20:56 AM »
Quote
Rapper Raz Simone, who has been patrolling the barricades with an AK-47 and a handgun, has begun assaulting residents who disobey him.

"We are the police now," says his crew. "We are the leaders."

Warlord Raz now rule the Zone.

This is an insurrection.

Kasandra

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2020, 07:42:54 AM »
Quote
Rapper Raz Simone, who has been patrolling the barricades with an AK-47 and a handgun, has begun assaulting residents who disobey him.

"We are the police now," says his crew. "We are the leaders."

Warlord Raz now rule the Zone.

This is an insurrection.

Brown spot theory.

Crunch

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2020, 07:56:27 AM »
Quote
” Radical Left Governor @JayInslee and the Mayor of Seattle are being taunted and played at a level that our great Country has never seen before,” Trump wrote. “Take back your city NOW. If you don’t do it, I will. This is not a game. These ugly Anarchists must be stooped [sic] IMMEDIATELY. MOVE FAST!”

Inslee responded on Wednesday night by mocking Trump’s typo.

“A man who is totally incapable of governing should stay out of Washington state’s business. ‘Stoop’ tweeting,” Inslee wrote on Twitter


Seattle has a warlord running a new country in its midst and the response is to call out a typo. They actually think this is smart. Well, we can see why smarmy responses are the standard now.

Meanwhile, in a press conference Seattle police confirm they are aware businesses within the zone are being extorted for “protection”. But Trump’s tweet has a typo so it’s all cool.

Kasandra

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2020, 08:36:52 AM »
Quote
Seattle has a warlord running a new country in its midst and the response is to call out a typo. They actually think this is smart. Well, we can see why smarmy responses are the standard now.

That's your takeaway?

DonaldD

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2020, 08:44:04 AM »
Seattle has a warlord running a new country
I'm not sure that the USA is really "new" but it's interesting that you are characterizing Trump as a warlord...

Crunch

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2020, 08:49:52 AM »
Seattle has a warlord running a new country
I'm not sure that the USA is really "new" but it's interesting that you are characterizing Trump as a warlord...

With that one, I think you just took the lead in smarminess. Congratulations.  :P

Crunch

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2020, 08:55:04 AM »
Quote
Washington Democrat Governor Jay Inslee claimed on Wednesday that he has “not heard anything about” extremists declaring an autonomous zone in his state’s largest city, despite widely shared images and photos that circulated on social media and a decent amount of media coverage.

Inslee was asked during a press conference, “Governor, I’d like to ask you about what’s going on Seattle, there’s this thing called the capital autonomous zone, what’s your thought about the fact that the protesters have taken that over and are not allowing people to come and go freely?

“Well that’s news to me,” Inslee claimed. “So, I’ll have to reserve any comment about it. I have not, I have not heard anything about that from any credible source, not that you’re not credible, it’s just like before I espouse an opinion, I should know of which I speak.”

Completely clueless. But did you know Trump had a typo? He put an extra “o” in stop, saying “stoop” making it official US policy to write it as stoop from now on. Right? Focus on that.

Kasandra

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2020, 09:00:41 AM »
Quote
Completely clueless. But did you know Trump had a typo? He put an extra “o” in stop, saying “stoop” making it official US policy to write it as stoop from now on. Right? Focus on that.

I very much doubt he's clueless, and he's definitely not stooped.

Crunch

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2020, 10:28:55 AM »
A few demands from the Zone:

1. Racially segregated hospitals/health care (you know, separate but equal care)
2. No more jails or prisons, just let everyone out now I guess
3. Defund and abolish the police departments statewide

Sounds like a good plan for Seattle and the rest of the state. Gonna be a utopia.

Kasandra

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2020, 10:52:49 AM »
For 99% of the people who support "Defund the Police" it doesn't mean abolish the police.  It means "Reform the Police" but that doesn't make a good bumper sticker or protest sign.  You always focus on the most extreme .1% to demonize the 99.9% you don't agree with.  You're the epitome of the brown spot conspiracy theorist.

Wayward Son

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2020, 11:02:43 AM »
I see that Trump is taking this very seriously.

Quote
Radical Left Governor
@JayInslee
 and the Mayor of Seattle are being taunted and played at a level that our great Country has never seen before. Take back your city NOW. If you don’t do it, I will. This is not a game. These ugly Anarchists must be stooped IMMEDIATELY. MOVE FAST!

Seattle mayor Jenny Durkan responded appropriately:

Quote
Make us all safe. Go back to your bunker.

You can tell she's just quaking in her boots about what General Bonespurs might do! :D

When a bunch of heavily-armed anarchists took over a government facility a few years back, I didn't hear you or Trump calling for them to be stopped immediately.  Because, of course, they were white.  And conservative.  And supported by Trump's base.

So, relax.  This will resolve itself soon enough.  A bunch of peace-niks who don't even believe in money won't hold that area too long.  A little patience and hopefully they can resolve this peacefully. 

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2020, 11:16:49 AM »
When a bunch of heavily-armed anarchists took over a government facility a few years back, I didn't hear you or Trump calling for them to be stopped immediately.  Because, of course, they were white.  And conservative.  And supported by Trump's base.

I was just thinking of them last night, funny you should mention it. In that situation they were almost unanimously referred to as right-wing nutjobs who needed to be taken out of there. To the extent that there was a debate, it was about whether it was important to settle the dispute with them peacefully, versus going in and cleaning house. There was no question about treating them like a reasonable party whose demands should be recognized as legitimate political discourse, and the majority here took the opinion that they had illegally seized a government facility and needed to be stopped.

I'm not specifically saying that the protesters in our case need to be treated with that same mentality, but I'm just pointing out how easy it is to dehumanize a bunch of 'right-wing yahoos' but conversely if the people doing the seizing are even further to the left than these other guys were to the right, they need to be catered to. I don't really know the best solution right now, but let's not forget the attitude people here took when it was a smaller group of 'gun nuts.' Well guess what, there are guns present in the current situation too, and unlike the former situation, the ones here are being used in context of "we are the police now." It's not an empty building this time.

TheDeamon

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2020, 11:23:09 AM »
When a bunch of heavily-armed anarchists took over a government facility a few years back, I didn't hear you or Trump calling for them to be stopped immediately.  Because, of course, they were white.  And conservative.  And supported by Trump's base.

Not quite the same thing at all?

They over a facility in a wildlife refuge. Nobody lived out there prior to the takeover, and nobody lived there after that takeover. Only about a dozen or so people had their employment impacted to any significant degree, and most were on the federal or state payroll.

These guys have take over several city blocks. People live there, many places of business exist in that area. We're not talking about only a couple dozen people having their daily life negatively impacted by the situation in Seattle.

That said, if I was in Trump's position, I'd simply sit back and subtly mock the Mayor of Seattle and Governor of Washington, as well as the Anti-Fa sympathizers, and let them deal with it aside from periodic offers of federal help resolving it. (No threats to do it for them)

It would make for a great campaign foil for the Republicans, if Trump would stop screwing up the optics.

ScottF

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2020, 11:44:18 AM »
That said, if I was in Trump's position, I'd simply sit back and subtly mock the Mayor of Seattle and Governor of Washington, as well as the Anti-Fa sympathizers, and let them deal with it aside from periodic offers of federal help resolving it. (No threats to do it for them)

For the first time in 20 years, my wife and I are seriously talking about moving. The PNW has transformed over the past 10-15 years. And not in a good way. It's definitely a result of leadership and policy evolution.

ScottF

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2020, 11:51:02 AM »
Musician Raz Simone, emcee of the free speech circle at 12th and Pine on Tuesday, called for long-term occupation.

“This is not Coachella,” Simone said, but an opportunity for demonstrators to make it what they want. “Bring your sleeping bags and tents. We here.”


The good news is it won't be that much different from many existing areas downtown. Already tons of tents, shopping carts, and sleeping bags. Oh, and quite a lot of feces and syringes. See ya, Seattle - enjoy your new freedom.

Kasandra

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2020, 11:52:00 AM »
When a bunch of heavily-armed anarchists took over a government facility a few years back, I didn't hear you or Trump calling for them to be stopped immediately.  Because, of course, they were white.  And conservative.  And supported by Trump's base.

Not quite the same thing at all?

They over a facility in a wildlife refuge. Nobody lived out there prior to the takeover, and nobody lived there after that takeover. Only about a dozen or so people had their employment impacted to any significant degree, and most were on the federal or state payroll.

These guys have take over several city blocks. People live there, many places of business exist in that area. We're not talking about only a couple dozen people having their daily life negatively impacted by the situation in Seattle.

That said, if I was in Trump's position, I'd simply sit back and subtly mock the Mayor of Seattle and Governor of Washington, as well as the Anti-Fa sympathizers, and let them deal with it aside from periodic offers of federal help resolving it. (No threats to do it for them)

It would make for a great campaign foil for the Republicans, if Trump would stop screwing up the optics.

And since it's not exactly the same, it's not at all the same.  Here are some differences:

* The Malheur occupiers were armed.  Ammon Bundy had previously led an armed resistance to BLM attempts to arrest him and his father for illegally using federal land to graze their cattle.
* They took over the facility in support of two people who had been convicted for arson on public lands.
* The demanded the federal government turn over control of public lands to the states.
* Their group included members of rightwing extremist groups and sovereign citizens who don't recognize the legitimacy of the US government

What's your real point?

TheDrake

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2020, 12:30:18 PM »
It is an interesting thought experiment to consider what the response would be if Black Lives Matter had taken over a symbolic building with the same number of armed people.

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2020, 12:32:09 PM »
* The Malheur occupiers were armed.[...]
[...]
* The demanded the federal government turn over control of public lands [...]
* Their group included members of [...] extremist groups and sovereign citizens who don't recognize the legitimacy of the US government

What's your real point?

Remove a few idiosyncratic details and they start to look not quite as different.


TheDeamon

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2020, 12:41:41 PM »
What's your real point?

The main thing is a bunch of guys barricaded "in the middle of nowhere" while of some mild interest to the public, doesn't really impact anybody, and waiting it out makes sense.

A bunch of people barricaded in the middle of a major city and controlling several blocks of said city? That isn't "a trivial impact."

Kasandra

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2020, 02:03:50 PM »
* The Malheur occupiers were armed.[...]
[...]
* The demanded the federal government turn over control of public lands [...]
* Their group included members of [...] extremist groups and sovereign citizens who don't recognize the legitimacy of the US government

What's your real point?

Remove a few idiosyncratic details and they start to look not quite as different.

Is being armed and threatening to shoot anyone who tried to end the occupation an idiosyncratic detail?

Kasandra

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2020, 02:06:17 PM »
What's your real point?

The main thing is a bunch of guys barricaded "in the middle of nowhere" while of some mild interest to the public, doesn't really impact anybody, and waiting it out makes sense.

A bunch of people barricaded in the middle of a major city and controlling several blocks of said city? That isn't "a trivial impact."

An armed rebellion is no big concern?  The public wasn't concerned because it happened in the seeming middle of nowhere, but IMO should have been because it was an attack on the Constitution by an armed group threatening violence.  Once again, where were the Oathkeepers? Shouldn't they have been there to help force the occupiers out?

Crunch

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2020, 02:14:03 PM »
That said, if I was in Trump's position, I'd simply sit back and subtly mock the Mayor of Seattle and Governor of Washington, as well as the Anti-Fa sympathizers, and let them deal with it aside from periodic offers of federal help resolving it. (No threats to do it for them)

It would make for a great campaign foil for the Republicans, if Trump would stop screwing up the optics.

I think that's exactly what's happening. The ads will run showing what you get if you vote democrat - riots, mayhem, sound cloud warlords. The longer it goes, the more it spreads, the more Trump benefits. The left's attack dogs tearing down cities is probably the most effective anti-Democrat ad campaign in history. Trump should let it run as long as the governors and mayors of those areas want it to run.

Lloyd Perna

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2020, 02:20:06 PM »
Well it didn't take very long for the CHAZ to develop it's own self-appointed violent police force.

Also, Apparently Raz Simone has been seen carrying an AR-15 around in the CHAZ.


0:35: "We are the police of this community now!"

6:20: "For your own safety, you need to go" seems like a thinly veiled threat

7:10: "You might need a little love tap" as a cutesy way of describing earlier assault

9:10: "We got to the point where addressing the point physically was the best way to get our point across."

11:00: Video blacked out as conflict heats up.

12:30: Someone starts yelling "WHAT THE *censored*" for reasons unclear. Based on later context, this appears to be when most of the assault occurred, may have involved kicking, definitely broke his glasses.

13:20: "Give me your phone and sit down." / "You just broke my glasses! I'm blind!" /"If you don't sit down, I'll make you sit down!"

13:45: "You just broke my glasses and stole my phone!"

14:45: "You just broke my glasses!" "Yeah, we should have broken your face!"

15:10: "Don't be making no threats n****, I'll blow your brains out" (the "threat" appears to have been "I want to leave here within the next 15 minutes", I think?)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2020, 02:22:53 PM by Lloyd Perna »

Crunch

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2020, 02:25:46 PM »
That smash cut right there, good for at least a 3 point bump.

Lloyd Perna

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2020, 02:28:12 PM »
But they are just protesting.

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2020, 02:48:43 PM »
* The Malheur occupiers were armed.[...]
[...]
* The demanded the federal government turn over control of public lands [...]
* Their group included members of [...] extremist groups and sovereign citizens who don't recognize the legitimacy of the US government

What's your real point?

Remove a few idiosyncratic details and they start to look not quite as different.

Is being armed and threatening to shoot anyone who tried to end the occupation an idiosyncratic detail?

Which group are you referring to?  ;)

Kasandra

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2020, 02:50:41 PM »
Not playing this time, Fenring. It's obvious from context.

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2020, 02:57:01 PM »
Not playing this time, Fenring. It's obvious from context.

Guess inferring my meaning is too much work for you. My post meant that your description was apt enough for both groups. I was not actually inquiring about whom you were referring to. Sigh.

Kasandra

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2020, 03:02:26 PM »
I can see your point if you include the group that wasn't armed and threatening to shoot people as being armed and threatening to shoot people.

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2020, 03:22:12 PM »
I can see your point if you include the group that wasn't armed and threatening to shoot people as being armed and threatening to shoot people.

So it is your contention that no one is Seattle is armed, and that there would be no violent actions taken if law enforcement (or any other 'outsider') were to come on to the scene to try to end the occupation?

yossarian22c

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2020, 03:29:29 PM »
The only thing that actually saves the CHAZ is Trump going in heavy handed with national guard? active military? its unclear what authority he would be acting under. Then they're martyrs and heroes. If he just sits back and waits then the best case scenario for the CHAZ is to get some kind of agreement on police reform from the government before they all get tired and go home.

Worst case is order breaks down and the police have to go in and protect the protesters from each other. Because a flood of 911 calls from an area claiming not to need the police is pretty much the definition of crashing and burning.

I don't think the CHAZ is a good idea, I wouldn't want to live there. But I imagine a lot of protesters will learn some valuable life lessons about governing and the difficulty of forming a consensus from a large group of largely disorganized people. Almost everyone ends up better off to wait them out. At some point most people will just go home. The euphoria of the "victory" will wear off in a week or so and it will just be hard work to stay for largely undefined goals.

Kasandra

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2020, 04:17:41 PM »
I can see your point if you include the group that wasn't armed and threatening to shoot people as being armed and threatening to shoot people.

So it is your contention that no one is Seattle is armed, and that there would be no violent actions taken if law enforcement (or any other 'outsider') were to come on to the scene to try to end the occupation?

I don't have a contention, even though you begin your "question" by saying that I have one and what it is.  There are a lot of rumors floating around, most of which are contradicted or rejected.  All I see is good and bad natured chaos with no leadership or organization.  As often happens, you are asking a question for which I don't have a good answer, which is why I suspect you're posing it as a trap.  But, if you think it's a good question, answer and I'll respond as fairly as I can, since as I said, I don't have a contention in this dog hunt.

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2020, 04:54:43 PM »
As often happens, you are asking a question for which I don't have a good answer, which is why I suspect you're posing it as a trap.  But, if you think it's a good question, answer and I'll respond as fairly as I can, since as I said, I don't have a contention in this dog hunt.

It's not a trap. Your posts pretty clearly showed you thought that the yahoos occupying a vacant wildlife center were armed, dangerous, and a direct threat, whereas the protesters here don't fit that definition for you. You answered another post comparing the differences by saying they're not the same at all. All my rejoinder suggested was that there are in fact commonalities, and as TheDrake posited I suspect the scenario in the wildlife refuse would have been worlds different had it been left-leaning animal rights activists instead of right-wing 'gun nuts', even if their literal actions had been identical. One group seems (apparently) legitimate, while the other are crazy insurrectionists. TheDrake seems to be wondering whether there's a double standard in play, and I am too. Because let's face it, the wildlife refuge situation was a joke that got people angry because of who it was doing it and their tone. Well as long as that's enough, you'd better be prepped for plenty of reasonable people to not like the 'who' or the 'tone' of those occupying civil districts.

Far be it for Crunch to be right about anything, but this is very likely to push some centrist people into Trump's lap. But in the chance it can do some good, crossed fingers. I don't know what to think of the 'goodness' of the current state of affairs, other than it feels dangerous in possibly the wrong ways.

Wayward Son

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2020, 06:06:57 PM »
What percentage of the Bundy clan and supporters were armed with pistols, rifles and such?  Approximately.

What percentage of the CHAZ group is armed with pistols, rifles, and such?  Approximately.

That's the difference.  One group came in with the overt threat of shooting anyone who tried to move them.  An armed occupation.  The other took over through sheer numbers, and came to an agreement with the local government (although, apparently, not with the Federal government).  A popular occupation.

And Crunch, when are you going to start tough-talking about what they should have done to the Bundy clan?  They should have been stooped IMMEDIATELY, right?  C'mon, let's hear it, Crunch!  Tell us how Obama was a wimp for not sending in the tanks, regardless of the casualties.  That's what you believe, isn't it?

I mean, how can a bunch of nearly unarmed "domestic terrorists" be any better than a bunch of heavily-armed ones, right? :)

Crunch

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2020, 06:40:11 PM »
What percentage of the Bundy clan and supporters were armed with pistols, rifles and such?  Approximately.

What percentage of the CHAZ group is armed with pistols, rifles, and such?  Approximately.

That's the difference.  One group came in with the overt threat of shooting anyone who tried to move them.  An armed occupation.  The other took over through sheer numbers, and came to an agreement with the local government (although, apparently, not with the Federal government).  A popular occupation.
So it all comes down to the percentage of people armed? Talk about rationalizing things. “The group I like has at least one less gun so it’s cool!” :o

And Crunch, when are you going to start tough-talking about what they should have done to the Bundy clan?  They should have been stooped IMMEDIATELY, right?  C'mon, let's hear it, Crunch!  Tell us how Obama was a wimp for not sending in the tanks, regardless of the casualties.  That's what you believe, isn't it?

I mean, how can a bunch of nearly unarmed "domestic terrorists" be any better than a bunch of heavily-armed ones, right? :)
Shouldn’t we start with the Whiskey Rebellion? If we’re gonna go historical to completely unrelated things, I say go all the way back.

I believe you’re having some kind of mental disconnect, that’s what I believe. But you can create any strawman you like.

Wayward Son

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2020, 07:06:14 PM »

So it all comes down to the percentage of people armed? Talk about rationalizing things. “The group I like has at least one less gun so it’s cool!” :o

So you think there was only one less gun?  The FACT that one group had close to 100% armed people vs. another group that had probably less than 10 percent (or less) armed means NOTHING to you?  Seriously, who is really rationalizing, Crunch?

Although the technical term is "projection." :D

Quote
And Crunch, when are you going to start tough-talking about what they should have done to the Bundy clan?  They should have been stooped IMMEDIATELY, right?  C'mon, let's hear it, Crunch!  Tell us how Obama was a wimp for not sending in the tanks, regardless of the casualties.  That's what you believe, isn't it?

I mean, how can a bunch of nearly unarmed "domestic terrorists" be any better than a bunch of heavily-armed ones, right? :)
Shouldn’t we start with the Whiskey Rebellion? If we’re gonna go historical to completely unrelated things, I say go all the way back.

I believe you’re having some kind of mental disconnect, that’s what I believe. But you can create any strawman you like.

No, it's no mental disconnect.  I, like most of members of this board, can see right through you, and know that you will criticize anything the other team does and never looked at how your own team may have done the same or worse.  And, as usual, all you can do is attack me for showing what you are and say that I'm having a "mental disconnect" or "TDS."  Because if you actually thought about what I was saying for a moment, you'd have to admit to being the hypocrite that you are.  That for you, mostly-armed conservatives taking over a park is just fine, but mostly-unarmed liberals requires the harshest response.

You are as pathetic as the President you helped elect.

Kasandra

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2020, 09:44:14 PM »
As often happens, you are asking a question for which I don't have a good answer, which is why I suspect you're posing it as a trap.  But, if you think it's a good question, answer and I'll respond as fairly as I can, since as I said, I don't have a contention in this dog hunt.

It's not a trap. Your posts pretty clearly showed you thought that the yahoos occupying a vacant wildlife center were armed, dangerous, and a direct threat, whereas the protesters here don't fit that definition for you. You answered another post comparing the differences by saying they're not the same at all.

Superficially, any two groups that occupy spaces to which they have no right or legitimacy are similar.  As are two groups who protest some perceived incursion by the government on their rights.  But in this exercise one group is armed and organized and the other may have one or two unwelcome armed participants and are not organized.  One group wants to delegitimize the government and overthrow and take back what they claim is their property, and the other is motivated to promote the rights of all citizens and ensure fair application of the law.  Yeah, I guess I'd say they're not the same at all if you discount the superficialities.

Quote
All my rejoinder suggested was that there are in fact commonalities, and as TheDrake posited I suspect the scenario in the wildlife refuse would have been worlds different had it been left-leaning animal rights activists instead of right-wing 'gun nuts', even if their literal actions had been identical. One group seems (apparently) legitimate, while the other are crazy insurrectionists. TheDrake seems to be wondering whether there's a double standard in play, and I am too. Because let's face it, the wildlife refuge situation was a joke that got people angry because of who it was doing it and their tone. Well as long as that's enough, you'd better be prepped for plenty of reasonable people to not like the 'who' or the 'tone' of those occupying civil districts.

There's no surprise that some people are outraged at the Seattle situation. I'm annoyed that they seem to be playing at revolution rather than taking it seriously.  That's not to say I agree with them or would want to join them.  Their scattershot rebellion will probably dissipate and accomplish nothing.  The protests and actions in many other cities and states are proving far more effective.  The irony in Seattle is that they will likely end up about where Minneapolis will, and would whether this action had been taken or not.

Quote
Far be it for Crunch to be right about anything, but this is very likely to push some centrist people into Trump's lap. But in the chance it can do some good, crossed fingers. I don't know what to think of the 'goodness' of the current state of affairs, other than it feels dangerous in possibly the wrong ways.

It may well do that.  That pool of people is shrinking in number but likely becoming more outraged and vicious in their response to all things left-ish.  And let's be clear that their enemy and target is all things left-ish, not law and order or improved policing or better race relations or the defense of civil rights.

TheDeamon

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2020, 09:45:50 PM »
The only thing that actually saves the CHAZ is Trump going in heavy handed with national guard? active military? its unclear what authority he would be acting under. Then they're martyrs and heroes. If he just sits back and waits then the best case scenario for the CHAZ is to get some kind of agreement on police reform from the government before they all get tired and go home.

This was covered earlier during the rioting phase of the "George Floyd Protests." (some of which seem to have move well beyond that)

The US Military CAN be used in a domestic situation should an event be determined to be an insurrection, as the Posse Comitatus Act specifically allows for that. The fly in the ointment is the unclear guidance on WHO gets to decide that an insurrection is underway. A legal case could be made that PotUS may be able to take either inaction, or the "inability to control the situation" on the part of the Local and State Governments to be basis for deeming an insurrection. (Of course, this also means he's probably need to declare the lower tiers of Government to be at least somewhat complicit with the "insurrection")

Ideally, further legislation passed later suggests "the intended process" is the Mayor/County Government asks for help from the State, the State mobilizes the National Guard to handle it, and if need be, calls in guard units from other states(they have agreements between each other for that, which was used for Katrina) to address the need. If the National Guard is unable to handle things, then the Regular Army is brought in to provide "logistical support" for the NG and others(also happened during Katrina). If that still isn't enough, then an Insurrection Declaration can be made by the Governor, the President agrees and makes his own declaration, and the Regular Combat troops get sent in.

Alternately Congress authorizes military intervention through legislative action.

I imagine Trump has now been walked through the process and is being strongly encouraged to let the "Normal Process" for this work its way through, and if the Mayor/Governor want to be a soft touch, let them, and capitalize on what the "protesters" do in the interim.

Quote
I don't think the CHAZ is a good idea, I wouldn't want to live there. But I imagine a lot of protesters will learn some valuable life lessons about governing and the difficulty of forming a consensus from a large group of largely disorganized people. Almost everyone ends up better off to wait them out. At some point most people will just go home. The euphoria of the "victory" will wear off in a week or so and it will just be hard work to stay for largely undefined goals.

Don't be surprised if the CHAZ turns into a larger scale "Occupy" style encampment for the next few months. AntiFa's backers, among others will more likely than not be providing most of the logistical support for keeping people in there 24/7 until/unless the authorities stop them from being able to bring stuff in.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2020, 09:50:48 PM by TheDeamon »

ScottF

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2020, 10:07:15 PM »
Local government needs to own this. This needs to be Inslee's and the mayor's legacy. They should just thank their stars that Janet Reno isn't the sitting AG. Looking at real estate in BC now.

yossarian22c

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2020, 10:56:22 PM »
I don't think the CHAZ is a good idea, I wouldn't want to live there. But I imagine a lot of protesters will learn some valuable life lessons about governing and the difficulty of forming a consensus from a large group of largely disorganized people. Almost everyone ends up better off to wait them out. At some point most people will just go home. The euphoria of the "victory" will wear off in a week or so and it will just be hard work to stay for largely undefined goals.

Don't be surprised if the CHAZ turns into a larger scale "Occupy" style encampment for the next few months. AntiFa's backers, among others will more likely than not be providing most of the logistical support for keeping people in there 24/7 until/unless the authorities stop them from being able to bring stuff in.

Maintaining one park takes a lot less effort than multiple city blocks. And if you read about how hard a time occupy had coming up with any policy proposals and keeping social cohesion it’s not at all a simple task to do that on a scale many times larger. So if it’s going to go on months they’re going to have to scale down their area. Keeping enough protestors around to occupy multiple city blocks is a logistical nightmare. Also it all ends with a covid outbreak in the zone.

ScottF

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2020, 01:42:13 AM »
Seattle police chief speaking out about the order to abandon her precinct.  “Rapes, robberies and all sorts of violent acts have been occurring in the area and we're not able to get to [them]."

“You fought for days to protect [the precinct]. I asked you to stand on that line. Day in and day out, to be pelted with projectiles, to be screamed at, threatened and in some cases hurt,” Best told the force.
“Then to have a change of course nearly two weeks in, it seems like an insult to you and our community.”
“Ultimately the city had other plans for the building and relented to public pressure,” she added. “I’m angry about how this all came about.”

Inslee:  “I spoke with @MayorJenny and her team about the situation on Capitol Hill. Although unpermitted, and we should remember we are still in a pandemic, the area is largely peaceful. Peaceful protests are fundamentally American, and I am hopeful there will be a peaceful resolution.“

The governor and the mayor are fully woke. You get the leadership you deserve.

Crunch

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2020, 07:16:38 AM »

So it all comes down to the percentage of people armed? Talk about rationalizing things. “The group I like has at least one less gun so it’s cool!” :o

So you think there was only one less gun?  The FACT that one group had close to 100% armed people vs. another group that had probably less than 10 percent (or less) armed means NOTHING to you?  Seriously, who is really rationalizing, Crunch?

Although the technical term is "projection." :D

Quote
And Crunch, when are you going to start tough-talking about what they should have done to the Bundy clan?  They should have been stooped IMMEDIATELY, right?  C'mon, let's hear it, Crunch!  Tell us how Obama was a wimp for not sending in the tanks, regardless of the casualties.  That's what you believe, isn't it?

I mean, how can a bunch of nearly unarmed "domestic terrorists" be any better than a bunch of heavily-armed ones, right? :)
Shouldn’t we start with the Whiskey Rebellion? If we’re gonna go historical to completely unrelated things, I say go all the way back.

I believe you’re having some kind of mental disconnect, that’s what I believe. But you can create any strawman you like.

No, it's no mental disconnect.  I, like most of members of this board, can see right through you, and know that you will criticize anything the other team does and never looked at how your own team may have done the same or worse.  And, as usual, all you can do is attack me for showing what you are and say that I'm having a "mental disconnect" or "TDS."  Because if you actually thought about what I was saying for a moment, you'd have to admit to being the hypocrite that you are.  That for you, mostly-armed conservatives taking over a park is just fine, but mostly-unarmed liberals requires the harshest response.

You are as pathetic as the President you helped elect.

Try to get some rest.

Crunch

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2020, 07:23:40 AM »
Seattle police chief speaking out about the order to abandon her precinct.  “Rapes, robberies and all sorts of violent acts have been occurring in the area and we're not able to get to [them]."

Rape, robbery, violence, in the zone? Literally every media outlet covers this as a peaceful, happy event.

The only conclusion is the police chief is lying.

NobleHunter

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2020, 08:39:22 AM »
Seattle police chief speaking out about the order to abandon her precinct.  “Rapes, robberies and all sorts of violent acts have been occurring in the area and we're not able to get to [them]."

Rape, robbery, violence, in the zone? Literally every media outlet covers this as a peaceful, happy event.

The only conclusion is the police chief is lying.

We all know the police chief has no reason to lie nor have police ever lied about criminal activity to make themselves look better.

Crunch

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2020, 10:19:39 AM »
Yeah, there was nothing like that in the Occupy Wallstreet camps. Gotta be making it up.

NobleHunter

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2020, 10:25:35 AM »
Do you have any evidence to support your assertion about CHAZ other than a statement by a ridiculously self-interested partisan?

Crunch

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The CHAZ
« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2020, 11:12:14 AM »
Do you have any evidence to contradict her other than reports from a ridiculously self-interested partisan?