Author Topic: Trump and the OGW miss the point, again  (Read 551 times)

TheDrake

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Trump and the OGW miss the point, again
« on: June 21, 2020, 08:55:08 PM »
New restrictions on H1B when my personal experience is that zero American applicants are qualified to work at my company. Time to offshore. Probably another salvo to hurt the tech companies in the evolving showdown.

bye bye


Lloyd Perna

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Re: Trump and the OGW miss the point, again
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2020, 10:17:19 PM »
So, I'm curious,  What are these qualifications that are so hard to find?

Fenring

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Re: Trump and the OGW miss the point, again
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2020, 10:28:07 PM »
The qualifications are: willing to work for below-market pay.

(no dig on you, TheDrake, but this can't be ignored as a broader issue)

TheDeamon

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Re: Trump and the OGW miss the point, again
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2020, 10:41:06 PM »
The qualifications are: willing to work for below-market pay.

(no dig on you, TheDrake, but this can't be ignored as a broader issue)

Or "at market pay" but in an area with a cost of living that is a multiple of the national market.

This also ignores the other matter of a number of people being strangely insistent that job come to them rather than come to where the job is.

TheDrake

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Re: Trump and the OGW miss the point, again
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2020, 12:06:19 AM »
Pay doesn't come in to application. I have no restriction on pay. I only have to say I want someone, and we paper the applicants house with dollars.

TheDrake

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Re: Trump and the OGW miss the point, again
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2020, 12:09:40 AM »
if anyone who knows anyone who has solid skills in uvm system verilog, send them here, https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-decker-a86795/

cherrypoptart

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Re: Trump and the OGW miss the point, again
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2020, 04:05:19 AM »
If Americans knew there would be a job for them with those skills then they'd be willing to train for them. As it is, the Americans could train for that but then the jobs would still go to H1B workers who can also train for the same thing but will accept less pay, fewer benefits, and longer hours without complaint and they also can't use the position for the experience and resume padding to jump to a better position at another company like an American worker can and will. Moving to less expensive H1B hires had ripple effects throughout the higher education and qualification pipelines to get into these jobs that cannot be undone without the stability that will only come when the H1B program is reduced for quite a while. If it's just going to be reduced until the next President or Congress comes in then why would people risk learning new skills and undergoing months or years of training to get qualifications when the rug is just going to be pulled out from under them again like it was for the Disney IT workers who were fired en masse and had to train their foreign replacements in order to receive severance compensation? People talk about there not being Americans with the right skills but that little episode showed the truth of it. And to the extent that there aren't Americans with those skills that's because they know they can and will be replaced so what's the point?

Kasandra

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Re: Trump and the OGW miss the point, again
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2020, 07:27:28 AM »
if anyone who knows anyone who has solid skills in uvm system verilog, send them here, https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-decker-a86795/

That's a pretty narrow specialty.  A friend of mine with a PhD in a closely related area (knows almost everything about almost nothing) has fielded offers from countries around the world, so good luck filling a position "locally".

TheDrake

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Re: Trump and the OGW miss the point, again
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2020, 12:21:21 PM »
If Americans knew there would be a job for them with those skills then they'd be willing to train for them. As it is, the Americans could train for that but then the jobs would still go to H1B workers who can also train for the same thing but will accept less pay, fewer benefits, and longer hours without complaint and they also can't use the position for the experience and resume padding to jump to a better position at another company like an American worker can and will. Moving to less expensive H1B hires had ripple effects throughout the higher education and qualification pipelines to get into these jobs that cannot be undone without the stability that will only come when the H1B program is reduced for quite a while. If it's just going to be reduced until the next President or Congress comes in then why would people risk learning new skills and undergoing months or years of training to get qualifications when the rug is just going to be pulled out from under them again like it was for the Disney IT workers who were fired en masse and had to train their foreign replacements in order to receive severance compensation? People talk about there not being Americans with the right skills but that little episode showed the truth of it. And to the extent that there aren't Americans with those skills that's because they know they can and will be replaced so what's the point?


I see. So I only have to wait twelve years while they start training themselves up for a six figure job they could have had yesterday. Got it. Nobody is underpaying people in semiconductor development. It's not about cheap labor it is about any labor. There are other segments, like IT, that I'm not qualified to comment upon. But if all you do is shuffle servers and do upgrades, you aren't R&D, you're low rent maintenance.

Fenring

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Re: Trump and the OGW miss the point, again
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2020, 12:26:04 PM »
Based on your OP you were making it sound like the new restrictions were being made illogically, when what you really need is foreign worker supply. But obviously if you happen to be in such a niche business that only a handful of people anywhere can do it, that literally no one in America is qualified, then obviously this is exceptional and not particularly a valid criticism of a general tightening of visa approval. I don't think you'll find too many modern industries where literally no one in the entire U.S. can do it.

Kasandra

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Re: Trump and the OGW miss the point, again
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2020, 12:41:43 PM »
Nevertheless, the blanket policy imposes the same restrictions on his company.

Fenring

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Re: Trump and the OGW miss the point, again
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2020, 12:45:46 PM »
Nevertheless, the blanket policy imposes the same restrictions on his company.

Yeah, by happenstance, not because the government is screwing up. Any rule, no matter how good or enlightened, is going to negatively affect someone, somewhere. That's not a good enough criterion to judge the rule as being problematic.

TheDrake

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Re: Trump and the OGW miss the point, again
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2020, 02:31:03 PM »
There's already a rule in place that forces companies to justify their use of H1B. Go ahead and tighten up that process, if you like. I'll bitch about the overhead, but I could understand it. Create a database for qualified Americans to apply. Do something rational, that isn't "well we just won't have any". Because like I said, you do that and you create a huge incentive to offshore for both good and bad actors. There's no way this results in "oh, I guess we'll have to hire the Americans now".

Fenring

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Re: Trump and the OGW miss the point, again
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2020, 03:28:08 PM »
There's no way this results in "oh, I guess we'll have to hire the Americans now".

Tbh, that's part of the problem. And I will concede that I don't know how good or bad these changes will be, but one thing to keep in mind is that a piecemeal approach to solving a broad global problem is going to look like "why do this when that still happens" invariably. And I don't think there is the political will or even capability to do it any way other than piecemeal. Offshoring is its own problem, and frankly I've never thought it should be legal in the way it is now. The race to the bottom kills working conditions for workers when it's allowed (for example having natural-born Americans 'compete' against illegal immigrants in restaurants), does so for distributors when vying for business (begging Walmart to take your goods practically at cost, and with other penalties and concessions), does so for production ("I have to import because everyone else is buying from China"), and it does so for even basic business operations. And these goods can be made offshore and imported back to the U.S. in order to avoid operating in America? I've always thought that was super-shady.

There is a multitude of problems associated with this, workers being imported to undercut local labor being only one of them (and not the worst), but I think it's hard to address the visa issue without discussing all of it basically. Assuming this is coming from Trump, his view on this entire sphere is that the U.S. has been screwed over and that countries like China have basically been taking huge advantage. The issue you describe is not about China, per se, but is still about 'greener pastures' when anyone can undercut America.

It's a technological and evolution issue, and is compounded by the constant trend towards automation, but basically the question of "how do we stop the bleeding" doesn't have just one answer, and step 1 towards a possible bandage is going to look woefully incomplete on its own.

TheDrake

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Re: Trump and the OGW miss the point, again
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2020, 04:14:04 PM »
And if offshoring isn't legal we'd stop being the hands down tech leader of the world. Whole companies would change their HQ offshore.

Why does a Korean company have massive US installations? Because immigration is unbelievably strict in Korea.

The US was built on being cheap offshore labor for Europe.

TheDeamon

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Re: Trump and the OGW miss the point, again
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2020, 04:51:39 PM »
The US was built on being cheap offshore labor for Europe.

No, it was cheap and abundant natural resources which Europe needed more of, in particular timber and lumber.

Fenring

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Re: Trump and the OGW miss the point, again
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2020, 05:09:58 PM »
The US was built on being cheap offshore labor for Europe.

No, it was cheap and abundant natural resources which Europe needed more of, in particular timber and lumber.

Hence, colonialism: have a large worker force providing resources and manpower where you get the goods plus a cut, plus taxes. It's a 'generator' to use a gaming term. Offshoring, however, doesn't act as a generator for the U.S. long-term, it acts as a degenerator that feels like a generator for 20 years. But worse still, it serves to enrich very specific groups at the expense of the rest. Ring a bell?

TheDrake

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Re: Trump and the OGW miss the point, again
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2020, 05:55:20 PM »
I don't think a human being's opportunity should be determined by the latitude and longitude of the vagina they popped out of.