Author Topic: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch  (Read 9865 times)

TheDrake

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I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« on: July 06, 2020, 08:29:41 PM »
I'm seeing more and more "America, love it or leave it" messages in social media. You can love your country and criticize it all at the same time. I never see liberals suggest that conservatives leave if they don't like a policy or criticize a problem. OH, you're mad at Obama? Nobody suggested those people should just leave. Why do you think there's a tendency for people with a conservative viewpoint to tell people they don't agree with to just leave? Oh, you don't like the mainstream media, well just leave then! Doesn't happen.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2020, 08:52:31 PM »
Based on what the media is doing, we're on the express train to some kind of Civil War once the November election results come out.

It'll hopefully remain political until the Election Results are being tabulated, but the narratives on both sides are already being rolled out so they can reject the results.

The current game being played is to see who can make the best claim (in November) on controlling the levers of Federal Power, but it's largely a shell game anyway. The "longer fuse" likely exists on the right in general, but other "on the right" are probably on a MUCH shorter one, and there will be a real risk that if the Dems win, the response to those short fused clowns is going to trigger a response from the rest.

Meanwhile, if a Trump win is announced, November and December are likely to be very long months to get through. Its going to get bad, quick, and its going to likely make what's been seen to date seem tame by comparison.

Kasandra

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2020, 06:44:03 AM »
If you watch FOX almost all you hear about is left-wing violence and anarchy, never anything these days about C19, never anything about legitimate social grievances.  They are stoking fears of left-wing revolt and may indeed be hoping that they can provoke a backlash of violence and counter-revolt by what you call short- and long-fuse right-wing viewers. Last night they featured an interview with the couple in the 11,000sf mansion who threatened to shoot mostly black marchers who walked down their street.  They will become heroes on FOX, and I expect to see them on the channel frequently alongside pictures of them holding their weapons.

There are rumbles among thoughtful people from both Parties who are afraid Trump will engineer an emergency requiring him to suspend or invalidate the November election so he can stay in office indefinitely.  He'll need help from Republicans in Congress and the Supreme Court, but some fear that if they don't go along with him that he will simply ignore them.  The leaders of the military are in his pocket now, so martial law is not a far-fetched possibility.

Personally, I don't believe that will happen.  I think he'll simply try to steal the election.  It wouldn't be as much fun as shooting black people and arresting Nancy Pelosi, but it's easier.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 06:47:20 AM by Kasandra »

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2020, 08:53:38 AM »
The leaders of the military are in his pocket now, so martial law is not a far-fetched possibility.
Hmmm... I think your concern is getting a little Crunch-y here...

However, I do agree that Trump is fanning the flames of civil unrest, and seems to now be dependent on breaking apart the country in the hopes of getting re-elected.  His modus operandi is pretty clearly anathema to the country's well-being at this point - I can't really see any policy benefits to anybody that outweigh his actively demonizing all people who believe that black residents of the country are getting shafted, his inability to prioritize the safety of the country over whatever his issue is with Russia, or his inability to address threats to USA citizens, be it COVID-19, natural disasters, or really anything, where acknowledging the existence of the threat would make him somehow look weak.

rightleft22

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2020, 10:29:13 AM »
I'm seeing more and more "America, love it or leave it" messages in social media. You can love your country and criticize it all at the same time. I never see liberals suggest that conservatives leave if they don't like a policy or criticize a problem. OH, you're mad at Obama? Nobody suggested those people should just leave. Why do you think there's a tendency for people with a conservative viewpoint to tell people they don't agree with to just leave? Oh, you don't like the mainstream media, well just leave then! Doesn't happen.

In general the reasons are within the definition of the labels of liberal and conservative. Conservatism a  commitment to traditional values and ideas with opposition to change or innovation. = want to change you don't belong.

rightleft22

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2020, 10:52:47 AM »
Quote
In general the reasons are within the definition of the labels of liberal and conservative. Conservatism a  commitment to traditional values and ideas with opposition to change or innovation. = want to change you don't belong.

That said when people take the time to detach from such labels as being 'all or nothing' 'either or' they might see that they hold views some of which are conservative and some of which are liberal and most somewhere in between. Its the politicization and attachment of identity to one or two extreme views that creates the problems.

Really we are all quite stupid as I'm sure we will make the same mistakes made through out history and cut of our nose to spite our face.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2020, 12:59:40 PM »
If you watch FOX almost all you hear about is left-wing violence and anarchy, never anything these days about C19, never anything about legitimate social grievances.  They are stoking fears of left-wing revolt and may indeed be hoping that they can provoke a backlash of violence and counter-revolt by what you call short- and long-fuse right-wing viewers.

Whether or not you agree with the "AntiFa" label being applied to the communist agitators who are openly operating all of this chaos, like the guy ranting about how the revolution is coming in DC. There clearly are mobilized pro-Communism groups actively working to carry out the work of destabilizing the country. Thankfully they're largely restricted to a handful of cities(chiefly Portland), but they're out there. And as a reminder, AntiFa historically has been the militant wing of the Communist Party. AntiFa in 1932 quite literally was the militant wing of the German Communist Party, of course, they weren't just Anti-Fascist, they were also anti-liberal. And there is rhetoric coming from members of their modern American counterpart which reflects that. (And ignores the matter of the European version of AntiFa that resumed operations in the 1950's and is still around)

The communists are out and about, the Liberal leaning media is stupidly going with "the enemy of my enemy(Trump) is my friend" for now and are likely to get a very nasty shock in the next few months. They don't want Biden to win, they want "the people's revolution," and they know a Trump victory is the best way to trigger one. Expect a concerted effort to raise up a third party candidate to siphon votes away from Biden to help Trump win to start "soon."

AntiFa in Portland is already encouraging people to vote Green instead of Democrat.

But by and large, I expect things are intended to be kept at a simmer until the November election is held. Although people are really good about running things off the rails, so things could get crazy well before then. Or as the military often says "No plan survives contact with the enemy."

The issue with this cycle is it is horribly broken in many ways, the major media outlets have completely lost their credibility, and don't even bother to do their properly. Rather than actually doing the research off primary sources they're often scribbling together reports based on 2nd, 3rd and even 4th hand reports and running a story to fit their favored narrative.

The Democrats are desperately trying to curry favor with the extreme left wing(which is no friend to them) in order to ensure they have turnout to win the election. While the Republican/Trump block is pretty solidly set at this point, if they're pro-Trump now, they're unlikely to budge at this point. Which just leaves a battle over the middle where a lot of people have to be utterly horrified at the choices being offered to them.

The "Easy call" is things go insane should Trump with the Electoral College again.

The more difficult call is what happens should the Democrats win, but that's one where they're currently making deals with the devil, and a consequence of that is they're likely to declare "a mandate for action" (Biden is now promising "Transformation") and doing things (to appease their extreme left-wing supporters) which is likely to move Republican Controlled states into essentially open rebellion against the new Federal Laws the Democrats try to enact, and we devolve into a very likely literal civil war 2.0 as state governments get directly involved in things.

Although it should be noted that certain state governments under a "Trump wins" scenario could go off the rails as well, California being the prime suspect.

NobleHunter

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2020, 01:23:01 PM »
I think you'll find that a President who presided over widespread rioting and a plague and did precious little to stop either is going to fare poorly in an election.

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2020, 01:42:12 PM »
Whether or not you agree with the "AntiFa" label being applied to the communist agitators who are openly operating all of this chaos
Really?  You believe not just some, or even much, nor even most, but "all" of this chaos is being perpetrated by "communist agitators", as opposed to, say, tens if not hundreds of thousands of black people who have had enough? You are still at the point of not believing black people when they tell you this explicitly, loudly and continuously?  I guess that makes it easier to ignore...

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2020, 01:45:29 PM »
Whether or not you agree with the "AntiFa" label being applied to the communist agitators who are openly operating all of this chaos
Really?  You believe not just some, or even much, nor even most, but "all" of this chaos is being perpetrated by "communist agitators", as opposed to, say, tens if not hundreds of thousands of black people who have had enough? You are still at the point of not believing black people when they tell you this explicitly, loudly and continuously?  I guess that makes it easier to ignore...

Typo. should be "in all of this chaos"

rightleft22

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2020, 02:13:40 PM »
I think you'll find that a President who presided over widespread rioting and a plague and did precious little to stop either is going to fare poorly in an election.

I'm not so sure. If the death rate doesn't rise with the increase in cases of covid-19 he might wiggle his way out of his poor leadership (it wasn't leadership that many who voted for him and continue to support him care about) 
I might have added hospital being overwhelmed as being a determining factor but I don't thing Trumps core followers will care about that... unless at a individual level they are personally impacted

NobleHunter

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2020, 03:05:57 PM »
I think the non-fatal effects of COVID will be pretty evident by November. It's not just fatalities but the other permanent consequences of being sick. I have faith the electorate will see the magnitude of Trump's failures and reject him.

Kasandra

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2020, 03:24:55 PM »
I think the non-fatal effects of COVID will be pretty evident by November. It's not just fatalities but the other permanent consequences of being sick. I have faith the electorate will see the magnitude of Trump's failures and reject him.

Not only the immediate and direct effects of the disease, but the economic malaise and the knock-in effects from the general anxiety of the population.  Some will look up and out beyond the US borders and will see how differently other countries have managed the pandemic.  There's every reason to expect that the US will have one of the highest, if not the highest, impact of any developed country in the world.  With about 85,000 additional deaths directly attributed to C19, the US will likely climb past 5 other countries to have the second highest death rate of any country in the world.  That simple statistic doesn't include the vast number of excess deaths that have already occurred here and the many thousands more that will happen by then.  It also doesn't include the long-term health impairments of people who recover from the disease, or the continuing severe economic impact all of us will suffer.

Gee, I'm not on message...nothing to see here...
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 03:28:08 PM by Kasandra »

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2020, 03:52:59 PM »
I think you'll find that a President who presided over widespread rioting and a plague and did precious little to stop either is going to fare poorly in an election.

I'm not so sure. If the death rate doesn't rise with the increase in cases of covid-19 he might wiggle his way out of his poor leadership (it wasn't leadership that many who voted for him and continue to support him care about) 
I might have added hospital being overwhelmed as being a determining factor but I don't thing Trumps core followers will care about that... unless at a individual level they are personally impacted

Even hospitals being overwhelmed may not be too much of an issue as long the Federal Government has resources in place before people die to resource/bed shortages. "ICU's are full" hasn't been that bar since New York.

There also is the aspect where for a lot of Republicans and Libertarians even absent Trump support or lack thereof, will generally view Covid19 handling as primarily a state issue and in that respect, mishandling claims regarding reopening go against the various state governments, not Trump. Trump only factors in once the state is no longer to handle the situation and does or does not get federal medical help at that point.

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2020, 04:01:08 PM »
There are two aspects of the pandemic handling - regulations and communications.

Nobody expects Trump to have regulated the country out of the pandemic.  What he has done is communicated the country into a much worse situation, and Republicans and libertarians are not so dumb as to be unaware of that.  Similarly, they can see him lighting the fires of white supremacy and racism, and neither group is inherently supportive of the country's history of slavery or racism.

Kasandra

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2020, 04:13:04 PM »
I think you'll find that a President who presided over widespread rioting and a plague and did precious little to stop either is going to fare poorly in an election.

I'm not so sure. If the death rate doesn't rise with the increase in cases of covid-19 he might wiggle his way out of his poor leadership (it wasn't leadership that many who voted for him and continue to support him care about) 
I might have added hospital being overwhelmed as being a determining factor but I don't thing Trumps core followers will care about that... unless at a individual level they are personally impacted

Even hospitals being overwhelmed may not be too much of an issue as long the Federal Government has resources in place before people die to resource/bed shortages. "ICU's are full" hasn't been that bar since New York.

There also is the aspect where for a lot of Republicans and Libertarians even absent Trump support or lack thereof, will generally view Covid19 handling as primarily a state issue and in that respect, mishandling claims regarding reopening go against the various state governments, not Trump. Trump only factors in once the state is no longer to handle the situation and does or does not get federal medical help at that point.

If it's going to be a state-by-state issue he can kiss Texas and Florida goodbye.  Houston and the hospitals of the Rio Grande valley are at capacity and the latter may need to send new patients elsewhere.  Miami Dade is getting close to hospital capacity and both states are rolling back some of their "freedoms".  It's only going to get worse there and in many other states.  Texas is teetering on the blue edge, and if the coming wave hits "The Villages" in Florida hard, Republicans may lose the state for a generation. The combination of the suffering in those two states might cost them the White House for decades.  Unless, of course, Trump refuses to concede the election.

Have you noticed that almost all of the active threads on Ornery have collapsed into trying to figure out how giant the cluster*censored* for Trump has become?

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2020, 04:13:27 PM »
Nobody expects Trump to have regulated the country out of the pandemic.  What he has done is communicated the country into a much worse situation, and Republicans and libertarians are not so dumb as to be unaware of that.  Similarly, they can see him lighting the fires of white supremacy and racism, and neither group is inherently supportive of the country's history of slavery or racism.

Problem is, you run into the BLM protests. Trump bloviating around wasn't the problem. Even the New York Times is starting to realize that was a major mistake.

The problem we have was public health officials condemning the reopening protests, then turning around to actively encourage participation in BLM protests, while simultaneously discouraging other activities.

I had one friend a month ago who noticed that in his areas gatherings of more than 10 people were not allowed, but protests of up to 100 people were. He promptly announced he was having a protest in his back yard and asked people to bring food.

Or more recently in Oregon there was a recent meme, which sadly I didn't research further at the time to verify, but it holds with what was being reported that day nationwide.

Their City Twitter feed announces a BLM protest to happen on the 4th of July and how they expect over 1,000 people to attend the protest.

A few hours later, the City Twitter account announces 4th of July Celebratory events have been canceled due to Covid19 and the danger of large gatherings.

The BLM Protest still happened though.

BLM is Magic, it somehow protects people from getting Covid19, but everything else involving large groups of people is dangerous and to be avoided.

And yet people wonder why others have decided it's all bulls*** now?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 04:15:33 PM by TheDeamon »

Kasandra

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2020, 04:16:09 PM »
And weirdly, there is no evidence that the protests have caused a spike in cases anywhere, and certainly not as big an uptick as all of the beach and house parties, weddings and church services have.

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2020, 04:18:29 PM »
Is there any evidence that the protests caused a significant number of infections, significant as compared to all the other behaviours leading to the infection rates?  We should see huge spikes in the areas where the protests happened, and ongoing reductions in infection rates elsewhere.

Is that what we see?

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2020, 04:27:30 PM »
For instance
  • Illinois - lots of large protests.  Continuing decrease in cases.
  • Minnesota - new cases dropped to a plateau, then remained steady
  • New York - steady decrease
  • Pennsylvania - steady decrease, to a base level
Huge protests in those states, yet no increase in cases coincident with the protests... hmmm...

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2020, 04:44:40 PM »
For instance
  • Illinois - lots of large protests.  Continuing decrease in cases.
  • Minnesota - new cases dropped to a plateau, then remained steady
  • New York - steady decrease
  • Pennsylvania - steady decrease, to a base level
Huge protests in those states, yet no increase in cases coincident with the protests... hmmm...

LA is seeing a huge spike in cases, and it's had some truly massive protests, and riots as well.

rightleft22

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2020, 04:59:20 PM »
For instance
  • Illinois - lots of large protests.  Continuing decrease in cases.
  • Minnesota - new cases dropped to a plateau, then remained steady
  • New York - steady decrease
  • Pennsylvania - steady decrease, to a base level
Huge protests in those states, yet no increase in cases coincident with the protests... hmmm...

I noted that in much of the footage of the protests masks were prevent where as in the partying gatherings much more indoor activity and face to face interactions. 

My observations is that its close interactions + indoors = higher risk of infection.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 05:03:07 PM by rightleft22 »

Kasandra

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2020, 05:00:35 PM »
LA began reimposing restrictions before the protests even began.  And you have a big tell, where you like to insert "riots" into every discussion, as if rioting and violent protests are the root of every evil you see.

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2020, 05:01:12 PM »
LA is seeing a huge spike in cases, and it's had some truly massive protests, and riots as well.
So - some states with massive protests saw no spike in cases, while other states with massive protests saw a spike in cases.

What does that suggest to you?

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2020, 05:21:10 PM »
If it helps, you can see a graph of California's new daily cases here.

California's new case count had been rising steadily since March.  There is no sudden spike of cases 2 or 3 weeks after the protests began.  In fact, the new case graph how's a very steady upwards trend, with a slight increase in the new daily case rate about 4 weeks after the protests began, and that increase in rate was not dramatic.  So unless there was time travel involved, something else was going on in California.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2020, 07:50:22 PM »
Uh, what? (Comparison, Fox News to PBS on the same rally event)

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ilhan-omar-dismantle-americas-economy-political-system-oppression

Quote
The Minnesota Democrat said Tuesday that most conversations around police brutality and racial injustice do not go far enough in their call for change.

“We can’t stop at criminal justice reform or policing reform,” she said during an outdoor press conference. “We are not merely fighting to tear down the systems of oppression in the criminal justice system. We are fighting to tear down systems of oppression that exist in housing, in education, in health care, in employment, [and] in the air we breathe.”

Omar said it was time to “guarantee homes for all” due to racial disparities in homeownership. She said that homeownership rates are nearly twice as high for White families as they are for Black families.

She also promoted the Green New Deal “because we know that environmental racism is real.”

“As long as our economy and political systems prioritize profit without considering who is profiting, who is being shut out, we will perpetuate this inequality,” the progressive Squad member continued. “So we cannot stop at [the] criminal justice system. We must begin the work of dismantling the whole system of oppression wherever we find it.”

So what did PBS have to say about the press conference? They report it happened, and helpfully provide the 42 minute long video(the Fox News quotes happen in the first 5 minutes), and then report on something else instead:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/watch-rep-ilhan-omar-holds-news-conference-on-systemic-racism-with-minnesota-leaders
Quote
Minnesota Rep. Ilhan Omar held a news conference on systemic racism, alongside other state leaders as Minneapolis continues to be a flashpoint in the nation’s reckoning on race.
Okay, reporting on that conference is done, now on to what the reporter wants to speak about instead:
Quote
Last month, several Minneapolis police officers resigned over a perceived lack of support during the height of the George Floyd protests that followed Floyd’s killing by Minneapolis police officers on May 25. The officers cited Mayor Jacob Frey’s decision to abandon the Third Precinct station on May 28. The building was set on fire by demonstrators that night.

The Minnesota Department of Human Rights launched a civil rights investigation into the city’s police department last month and the FBI is investigating whether police willfully deprived Floyd of his civil rights.

The department has faced decades of allegations of brutality and other discrimination against Black Americans and other minorities. A majority of City Council members support dismantling or defunding the department.

Omar told CNN’s “State of the Union” last month that the Minneapolis Police Department is suffering a crisis of credibility and needs to be dismantled. In the recent news conference, she expanded her criticism to the wider systemic racism rooted in American culture.

“We are not merely fighting to tear down the systems of oppression in the criminal justice system,” she said. “We are fighting to tear down systems of oppression that exist in housing, in education, in healthcare, in employment, in the air we breath.”

TheDrake

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2020, 07:59:34 PM »
Great news about the protests, I guess that means we can start opening all the outdoor ballparks then.

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2020, 08:08:29 PM »
TheDaemon, PBS quoted some of the very same bits that Fox quoted, although both provided different 'colour commentary', not surprisingly focusing on different context.  What exactly is your point? 

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2020, 01:05:03 AM »
TheDaemon, PBS quoted some of the very same bits that Fox quoted, although both provided different 'colour commentary', not surprisingly focusing on different context.  What exactly is your point?

What part of:

Quote
Omar told CNN’s “State of the Union” last month that the Minneapolis Police Department is suffering a crisis of credibility and needs to be dismantled. In the recent news conference, she expanded her criticism to the wider systemic racism rooted in American culture.

“We are not merely fighting to tear down the systems of oppression in the criminal justice system,” she said. “We are fighting to tear down systems of oppression that exist in housing, in education, in healthcare, in employment, in the air we breath.”

Is a quote from her recent press conference? I agree the press conference echoed the earlier statement. But the reporter only said she held a press conference(one sentence allocated to that), then gave background from a month ago, and then gave a quote from a much earlier CNN interview.

Someone was being very lazy.

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2020, 06:35:24 AM »
You are misreading.

The context provided was
  • Last month, police officers resigned because of a perceived lack of support
  • Last month, the Department of Human Rights launched an investigation
  • Over a period of decades, the police force has faced allegations of brutality.
  • Last month Omar stated (on CNN) that the force needs to be dismantled.
  • In the recent news conference Omar "expanded" on that topic, which introduced the quote, the same one (one of) used by Fox.
Here, I'll highlight the important bits:

Uh, what? (Comparison, Fox News to PBS on the same rally event)

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ilhan-omar-dismantle-americas-economy-political-system-oppression

Quote
The Minnesota Democrat said Tuesday that most conversations around police brutality and racial injustice do not go far enough in their call for change.

“We can’t stop at criminal justice reform or policing reform,” she said during an outdoor press conference. “We are not merely fighting to tear down the systems of oppression in the criminal justice system. We are fighting to tear down systems of oppression that exist in housing, in education, in health care, in employment, [and] in the air we breathe.”

Omar said it was time to “guarantee homes for all” due to racial disparities in homeownership. She said that homeownership rates are nearly twice as high for White families as they are for Black families.

She also promoted the Green New Deal “because we know that environmental racism is real.”

“As long as our economy and political systems prioritize profit without considering who is profiting, who is being shut out, we will perpetuate this inequality,” the progressive Squad member continued. “So we cannot stop at [the] criminal justice system. We must begin the work of dismantling the whole system of oppression wherever we find it.”

So what did PBS have to say about the press conference? They report it happened, and helpfully provide the 42 minute long video(the Fox News quotes happen in the first 5 minutes), and then report on something else instead:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/watch-rep-ilhan-omar-holds-news-conference-on-systemic-racism-with-minnesota-leaders
Quote
Minnesota Rep. Ilhan Omar held a news conference on systemic racism, alongside other state leaders as Minneapolis continues to be a flashpoint in the nation’s reckoning on race.
Okay, reporting on that conference is done, now on to what the reporter wants to speak about instead:
Quote
Last month, several Minneapolis police officers resigned over a perceived lack of support during the height of the George Floyd protests that followed Floyd’s killing by Minneapolis police officers on May 25. The officers cited Mayor Jacob Frey’s decision to abandon the Third Precinct station on May 28. The building was set on fire by demonstrators that night.

The Minnesota Department of Human Rights launched a civil rights investigation into the city’s police department last month and the FBI is investigating whether police willfully deprived Floyd of his civil rights.

The department has faced decades of allegations of brutality and other discrimination against Black Americans and other minorities. A majority of City Council members support dismantling or defunding the department.

Omar told CNN’s “State of the Union” last month that the Minneapolis Police Department is suffering a crisis of credibility and needs to be dismantled. In the recent news conference, she expanded her criticism to the wider systemic racism rooted in American culture.

“We are not merely fighting to tear down the systems of oppression in the criminal justice system,” she said. “We are fighting to tear down systems of oppression that exist in housing, in education, in healthcare, in employment, in the air we breath.”

So, no - the quote is identical, and clearly labelled as coming from the recent press conference, not from CNN.

Sometimes (often) we see what we expect to see.

Fenring

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2020, 11:04:24 AM »
Have you noticed that almost all of the active threads on Ornery have collapsed into trying to figure out how giant the cluster*censored* for Trump has become?

Funny you should say that, as this is exactly the case also for MSM networks since 2016! Trump Trump Trump 24/7, and if another story rises cover it briefly then back to Trump. It's no coincidence.

Fenring

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2020, 11:16:40 AM »
Is there any evidence that the protests caused a significant number of infections, significant as compared to all the other behaviours leading to the infection rates?  We should see huge spikes in the areas where the protests happened, and ongoing reductions in infection rates elsewhere.

Is that what we see?

The issue isn't just whether the physical event of the protests caused a spike, although even if that was an issue it's a major blow to morale, because many people were being prevented from holding outdoor gatherings prior to that. How convenient that a post hoc justification of "oh outside is ok" came after they knew the protests would happen regardless of what they said. Heaven forbid public figures on the left should say of others on the left "we agree with their cause but these protest gathering are wrong". And I know why not - they would be torn to pieces.

But aside from this particular morale problem, there is a worse one, and one that stands aside from whether the protests directly caused an outbreak: the caused the entire public to lose faith in social distancing, which long-term may slow down progress or makes things worse, albeit not as a sudden spike. Don't you realize that the ability to convince people to stay at home and not go out was tenuous even at its best? Hearing about a mass protest crushes the ability of many people to take social distancing and isolation seriously. In my city the entire trend of social distancing was utterly shattered immediately after the start of the protests. One day people would walk on to the street to avoid walking near you (9/10 of them would, 1/10 never gave a crap), and then the next day, post-protest, literally no one is doing this anymore and the sentiment was "uh, I guess we're not doing this any more."

It's not just as simple as looking for a spike 2 weeks later. And if social distancing breaks down and that doesn't create a spike (as you're trying to show), then that serves as a significant refutation of the value of social distancing, numerically speaking, which further corrodes morale. And I'm not arguing that would shouldn't social distance (we should), but rather that it will cause people to think it's useless.

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2020, 11:25:54 AM »
How convenient that a post hoc justification of "oh outside is ok" came after they knew the protests would happen regardless of what they said.
People keep saying things like this, but it seems a pretty basic misunderstanding: the protests were definitely not a good thing for the spread of the virus, and almost certainly led to increases in cases.  But pretending that the large increases in daily new cases (much of which predated the protests) were primarily, or even substantially, a result of the protests as opposed to other dynamics is demonstrably wrong.  Pointing out this incorrect hypothesis should not be mistaken for a justification for the protests.  That's a complete straw man argument, at best; at worst, it's dishonest.

Fenring

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2020, 11:32:30 AM »
That's a complete straw man argument, at best; at worst, it's dishonest.

I would say that the straw man is to claim that what I just argued is that all new recorded cases are a result of the protests. What I argued is that in subtle ways when you corrode morale and belief in the procedures it leads to slackening of safety protocols, and that you will not be able to track this back to the protests in terms of an immediate spike. The effects may not have even been fully felt yet, and it is too chaotic a system to ever track it. All we have is common sense and what we see with our own eyes, and I *know* that universal slackening happened as a result of the protests. How this directly affects numbers we cannot be certain.

But I find it interesting that you quoted my pointing out of hypocrisy to then suggest that really there wasn't a serious spike. What on earth do those have to do with each other? That it was rank hypocrisy seems to me so self-evident that it's particularly striking to see anyone defending it. We both know that there was no general announcement or consensus that outdoor gathering was probably low-risk until after the protests, at which time it became politically expedient to say so rather than to have to put your head in the noose and announce that you had a problem with the protests. And I don't want to be funny about this - the people supporting the protest on social media would have utterly disowned anyone who had spoken against it on any grounds (including safety concerns).

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2020, 11:39:11 AM »
If the "post-hoc" argument had nothing to do with the post of mine that you quoted, then you shouldn't have quoted those words from my post.

Fenring

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2020, 11:59:39 AM »
If the "post-hoc" argument had nothing to do with the post of mine that you quoted, then you shouldn't have quoted those words from my post.

I quoted that portion of your text, which I'll repeat here just to avoid potential confusion -

Quote
Is there any evidence that the protests caused a significant number of infections, significant as compared to all the other behaviours leading to the infection rates?  We should see huge spikes in the areas where the protests happened, and ongoing reductions in infection rates elsewhere.

Is that what we see?

- because it very much carries the connotation that the protests weren't really a significant health concern, despite some people trying to make it look like one. My point was that you don't know yet, and probably never will whether the protests caused a significant health problem long-term. All you have been looking for (reasonably, in a way) is the short-term or 2-week fallout, but that's only half the picture. The other half is how much people are going to take safety precautions seriously going forward, and for how long, until they get fed up. Even if the protests weren't the last straw they certainly added to the load. For many people, though, I actually do think they were the last straw, but for others the last straw could be something else later on. And there will be a last straw if people don't really believe their sacrifices are doing anything or being respected by their fellow citizens. The protests very much showed that health precautions are important unless something we care about more shows up. That's a super bad message to send. And you can't measure that now because it's psychological, but at the same time denying that this is relevant is foolish.

I find it interesting that I'm taking a position of pro-precautions and that people aren't taking it seriously enough, but because it might have the tinge of an anti-left position you're trying to refute my position on it anyhow. After all of your posts on global warming and the pandemic, I would have thought you'd be first in line to support any position of taking these public concerns seriously. I can't help but feel that somehow the protest movement is 'untouchable' and that it is making you reverse your usual position because it's higher on the priority list. If that is so (and it's not wrong, per se, to have priorities) then it only validates my point: people see someone else placing something higher than social distancing, and now the conclusion is obvious: when something important to me comes up I'll place that as a higher priority too.

rightleft22

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2020, 12:10:14 PM »
Quote
because it very much carries the connotation that the protests weren't really a significant health concern, despite some people trying to make it look like one

I didn't read "Is that what we see?" as suggesting the connotation you noted. Maybe I'm missing something.

Fenring

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2020, 12:13:48 PM »
Quote
because it very much carries the connotation that the protests weren't really a significant health concern, despite some people trying to make it look like one

I didn't read "Is that what we see?" as suggesting the connotation you noted. Maybe I'm missing something.

Well it's the general tenor of an answer sounding like pushback on criticism, rather than something like "yes I am also worried that the protests were a problem but it's hard to know." Instead we get "have you seen any sign they were a problem?" which is not outright denial but a wishy washy way of saying that if no one can prove it was a problem then nothing to see here.

wmLambert

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2020, 12:58:36 PM »
...I do agree that Trump is fanning the flames of civil unrest, and seems to now be dependent on breaking apart the country in the hopes of getting re-elected.

You must not be following the news at all. Trump is the unifier. The old Obama regime and current Leftists and MSM are the dividers. It was Trump who corrected years of economic pain to minorities and actually did what he promised to help them. As the Leftists try to break apart the country, it is also them who act like Trump is the one doing it. Don't be part of the hypocrisy.

rightleft22

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2020, 01:00:29 PM »
"Is this what we see" and "have you seen any sign they were a problem?" are different questions.

Any answer to the question on the impact of the protests on the infection rate would require access to contact tracing data. I suspect the US infection rate is making contact tracing difficult to determine the source of flareup's so we might not ever know.


rightleft22

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2020, 01:02:50 PM »
...I do agree that Trump is fanning the flames of civil unrest, and seems to now be dependent on breaking apart the country in the hopes of getting re-elected.

You must not be following the news at all. Trump is the unifier. The old Obama regime and current Leftists and MSM are the dividers. It was Trump who corrected years of economic pain to minorities and actually did what he promised to help them. As the Leftists try to break apart the country, it is also them who act like Trump is the one doing it. Don't be part of the hypocrisy.

The great unifier...  wow..  I'm actually worried for you

wmLambert

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2020, 01:03:11 PM »
...we get "have you seen any sign they were a problem?" which is not outright denial but a wishy washy way of saying that if no one can prove it was a problem then nothing to see here.

Correct in the main, but The question is whether the protests in general were staged by a frantic losing Leftist crowd who wanted to hurt the Trump economy at any cost. It still is the question.

wmLambert

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2020, 01:07:09 PM »
...The great unifier...  wow..  I'm actually worried for you

No, you're probably not. You are just offended that the almighty rush to paint everything Trump does as diametrically opposed to what he really did or said is questioned. You cannot deny the low unemployment numbers nor the improvement of all minorities under his first three years. You ridicule him for pointing out that Leftwing agitators tear down statues of abolitionists.

TheDrake

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2020, 01:33:55 PM »
What on earth do low unemployment numbers have to do with unifying?

As for unifying, he's been brilliant at unifying the orange god worshippers against any policy, any dissent, any country, any entertainer that does not follow His will. They are united in their defense of anything and everything Trump says or does. The problem is he left the other 60% of the country and a good chunk of the rest of the world out of it.

Reagan was a unifier. He pulled together groups that are naturally opposed to each other in a broad coalition. He won his elections 489-49 and 525-13. He worked with a heavily Democratic house to pass important legislation.

rightleft22

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2020, 01:47:01 PM »
...The great unifier...  wow..  I'm actually worried for you

No, you're probably not. You are just offended that the almighty rush to paint everything Trump does as diametrically opposed to what he really did or said is questioned. You cannot deny the low unemployment numbers nor the improvement of all minorities under his first three years. You ridicule him for pointing out that Leftwing agitators tear down statues of abolitionists.

It seems your ability to mind read needs work. I'm not offended and I do worry about any one that argues that Trump is the 'great unifier' and not seeing their own hypocrisy and projections.

I can understand why some people might support the Trump administrations policies but don't understand how anyone can defend the man methods as being unifying.
If Trump is 'the great unifier' the state of the union would indicate that he is failing badly.

wmLambert

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2020, 01:51:01 PM »
What on earth do low unemployment numbers have to do with unifying?

As for unifying, he's been brilliant at unifying the orange god worshippers against any policy, any dissent, any country, any entertainer that does not follow His will. They are united in their defense of anything and everything Trump says or does. The problem is he left the other 60% of the country and a good chunk of the rest of the world out of it.

Reagan was a unifier. He pulled together groups that are naturally opposed to each other in a broad coalition. He won his elections 489-49 and 525-13. He worked with a heavily Democratic house to pass important legislation.

No. Incorrect, non-logical statements that only appear likely. Reagan was attacked just like Trump. He went around the opposition press to answer his critics, and it took two full terms for the MSM to pick up on the fact that he WAS a unifier. I remember Bush 43 who truly was a bipartisan politician being sabotaged by the Democrat Party by withdrawing all their members from all the Bipartisan working groups he has set up, and had already delivered most of the Democrat planks that the Dems could never accomplish on their own. Only after Bush 43 gave them the Kennedy-led NCLB legislation and they realized they had no issues to run on, that they decided the new paradigm of hurting the nation to gain power by projecting their action onto Bush. 

Do you really need the benefits of lowest unemployment numbers ever for minorities to be spoon-fed to you? You cannot be that dishonest.

You defining the voting electorate as "orange god worshippers" defines you - not them. Why do you say thhat? Because the Leftwing MSM has said so, and in so doing torn apart the nation on purpose. That is on you - not on Trump.

yossarian22c

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2020, 02:06:15 PM »
...The great unifier...  wow..  I'm actually worried for you

No, you're probably not. You are just offended that the almighty rush to paint everything Trump does as diametrically opposed to what he really did or said is questioned. You cannot deny the low unemployment numbers nor the improvement of all minorities under his first three years. You ridicule him for pointing out that Leftwing agitators tear down statues of abolitionists.

Unemployment isn't low anymore. Trump doesn't unify, he attacks. He divides, he bullies. You can enjoy or admire that type of rhetoric as "strong" or somesuch but Trump as the great unifier is absurd.

Are you still convinced Trump is a good man and everyone who knows him says so?
The two recent books by Bolton and Trump's niece kind of put a lie to that. The man's own former NSC and his own family are writing books talking about how horrible and dangerous he is to the country. Support him or not but do it with your eyes open about who and what you're supporting.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2020, 02:17:40 PM »
How convenient that a post hoc justification of "oh outside is ok" came after they knew the protests would happen regardless of what they said.
People keep saying things like this, but it seems a pretty basic misunderstanding: the protests were definitely not a good thing for the spread of the virus, and almost certainly led to increases in cases.  But pretending that the large increases in daily new cases (much of which predated the protests) were primarily, or even substantially, a result of the protests as opposed to other dynamics is demonstrably wrong.  Pointing out this incorrect hypothesis should not be mistaken for a justification for the protests.  That's a complete straw man argument, at best; at worst, it's dishonest.

To governors moved through opening phases too quickly. many of them were moving from phase to phase on a 2 week or less interval even though they knew that tests for infection often lag the infection by 2 weeks. I'm not going to deny they screwed up on their rush to reopen the bars and boost capacity at dine-in restaurants.

But they're still only one piece of the puzzle, as Fenring pointed out, even if the riots themselves didn't directly contribute, the blow it struck in regards to "social distancing" in general was massive and unmistakable.

Fenring

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2020, 02:21:27 PM »
...we get "have you seen any sign they were a problem?" which is not outright denial but a wishy washy way of saying that if no one can prove it was a problem then nothing to see here.

Correct in the main, but The question is whether the protests in general were staged by a frantic losing Leftist crowd who wanted to hurt the Trump economy at any cost. It still is the question.

Lol, thanks for the 'help'...

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2020, 02:22:32 PM »
...I do agree that Trump is fanning the flames of civil unrest, and seems to now be dependent on breaking apart the country in the hopes of getting re-elected.

You must not be following the news at all. Trump is the unifier. The old Obama regime and current Leftists and MSM are the dividers. It was Trump who corrected years of economic pain to minorities and actually did what he promised to help them. As the Leftists try to break apart the country, it is also them who act like Trump is the one doing it. Don't be part of the hypocrisy.

Trump is doing an effective job of providing them with sound bites they're using to fan the flames. Otherwise they're just taking his remarks, ignoring them, and declaring he said something else entirely. (His speech at Mount Rushmore)