Author Topic: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch  (Read 9860 times)

TheDrake

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #350 on: September 02, 2020, 02:33:09 PM »
So when a guy with a knife is running away from the cops, they are perfectly justified in blasting away. But when citizens chase a guy with a rifle running away who just shot someone in the head, they are wrong to do so?

I haven't seen any report that he was at these properties at the request of the owner. Nor is there anything in the times article about anyone throwing an incendiary device, that I can see.

Legally, most anything Rittenhouse said would not make a difference. Unless he made a threat to start shooting people. Morally it makes a hell of a lot of difference, it is the difference between a mob setting upon him unprovoked and him pushing someone to their breaking point.

TheDrake

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #351 on: September 02, 2020, 03:20:53 PM »
BTW, I tracked down your #molotov inaccuracy.

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The belief that it was, or was not a Molotov cocktail was why on August 26, the hashtag #Molotov started trending on Twitter, along with an increase in the number of comments on posts and the sharing of images related to plastic bags. Some Twitter users who cross-referenced the videos discovered that in videos shot from other angles, the object the victim threw appeared to be a plastic bag. In addition to the item clearly not on fire and appearing to be bag-shaped from other angles, a plastic bag is visible on scene after the fact, in the same location the object landed. The victim was also filmed carrying a plastic bag with some items in it moments before the shooting took place, which appeared to be the same plastic bag at the scene of the shooting. In the time since, other outlets, including ABC News, have confirmed that the object in the video was indeed a plastic bag.

Attacked with a deadly shopping bag!

yossarian22c

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #352 on: September 02, 2020, 03:38:51 PM »
BTW, I tracked down your #molotov inaccuracy.

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The belief that it was, or was not a Molotov cocktail was why on August 26, the hashtag #Molotov started trending on Twitter, along with an increase in the number of comments on posts and the sharing of images related to plastic bags. Some Twitter users who cross-referenced the videos discovered that in videos shot from other angles, the object the victim threw appeared to be a plastic bag. In addition to the item clearly not on fire and appearing to be bag-shaped from other angles, a plastic bag is visible on scene after the fact, in the same location the object landed. The victim was also filmed carrying a plastic bag with some items in it moments before the shooting took place, which appeared to be the same plastic bag at the scene of the shooting. In the time since, other outlets, including ABC News, have confirmed that the object in the video was indeed a plastic bag.

Attacked with a deadly shopping bag!

Does it change your opinion if the bag was filled with rocks? Or bleach? What about a metal water bottle?

Don't throw crap at people, particularly not scared kids carrying a gun. I think this situation, particularly after the first shot in a fog of war type situation is one where the stand your ground type laws have basically legalized dueling. Whoever survives was acting in self-defense. So I think Rittenhouse either gets convicted of murdering the first guy or goes free.

But let me be clear. DO NOT send untrained armed 17 year olds out to "patrol the streets" or "protect property" or what ever they claim he was doing out there. Its dangerous for everyone involved and even if he doesn't end up spending a lot of time in prison this kid has to live with killing two people and being infamous. His life is ruined (to what degree the courts will determine) and two people are unnecessarily dead.

TheDrake

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #353 on: September 02, 2020, 03:52:24 PM »
No doubt it was foolish and unwise for him to be there, and just as foolish and unwise for someone to throw things at people whether they are obviously armed or not. But what it wasn't was a molotov cocktail, which I think all would agree is far more threatening.

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #354 on: September 02, 2020, 04:56:00 PM »
I'm going to go out on a limb and say female #3 in that report is a friend of his, and when female #2 physically attacked #3, it was game on for him, in defense of #3.

Not a great character reference for Kyle if that is him in the video. But it isn't particularly damning either. He didn't escalate the fight into being physical, but once it did become physical he did intervene. The intervention leaves a lot to be desired, but it doesn't paint him as one to start trouble.
It sounds like you didn't watch the video at all, yet you are really bending over backwards to give Rittenhouse the benefit of the doubt.  Punching a girl from behind is defensible (not trying to restrain the girl, but wailing away) and shooting someone in the head was OK because - molotov cocktail.  Shooting the skateboarder who was trying to wrest the long gun away from Rittenhouse was OK because he feared for his life.  These are the benefits of the doubt not given to Blake, or the people that Rittenhouse shot.

TheDrake

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #355 on: September 02, 2020, 05:44:30 PM »
To whom it may concern, the verb is "whale" not "wail". Wailing away would mean he was bawling his eyes out.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #356 on: September 02, 2020, 06:37:01 PM »
So when a guy with a knife is running away from the cops, they are perfectly justified in blasting away. But when citizens chase a guy with a rifle running away who just shot someone in the head, they are wrong to do so?

"Citizen's arrest" is a very legally grey area. Most jurisdictions strongly advise people NOT to do so, report it to the police and let them do so. It is even more strongly encouraged when doing so may place the citizen in a dangerous situation.

Kyle had only shot one person at the time they tried to take him down when persons 2 and 3 were shot. He was not an "immediate threat" to anyone, until he demonstrated differently, engaging him was quite literally taking your own life into his hands. Remember: In wisconsin, and a number of other states, the only group where the right to self-defense does not apply is when it regards to Law Enforcement, and any military forces engaged in that role.

You have the right to defend yourself against a citizen's arrest in Wisconsin. So once again it does not matter what Kyle did previously, you don't confront such a person yourself. Leave it to law enforcement.

The "correct solution" which would have backing in law, would have been to tail him until he reached the police line and make sure the police knew he was "the shooter" so they could detain him. Which is ultimately what they tried to do after he shot two more people.

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I haven't seen any report that he was at these properties at the request of the owner. Nor is there anything in the times article about anyone throwing an incendiary device, that I can see.
Okay, they only had a still image of the first shooting.

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/08/26/video/26vid-kenosha-muzzle3/26vid-kenosha-muzzle3-superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp

Here is the video they took the still image from:

https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/1298841139810893824

okay, twitter for some reason won't let me direct link to that post.

They have two video in that thread which show the first shooting.

The one they took the still from is described as "The muzzle flash of the first shot by the unknown gunman and the smoke rising from the handgun can be seen in this video capturing the first shooting from a different angle."

The other video is described as "At 23:19, Rittenhouse is seen in this YouTube livestream. He's being chased into a parking lot. While he is being pursued, an unknown gunman fires the first shot into the air." and in that one, you can see victim #1 throw what looks to be a molotov cocktail at Rittenhouse, although subsequent reporting seems to indicate it wasn't one in reality. It still was a bottle with a flaming piece of cloth attached.

To help you out, timestamp for the windup of the throw is 0:07 on the video, it doesn't help that at that moment a bicyclists head obstructs part of the view, but you can see him "winding up" to throw just before the view is obstructed, you can even see something glowing to the right if the cyclist's head. At the 0:08 second point, I'm currently looking at a freeze-frame of a dark object with what looks to be a fire trail following behind it heading for Rittenhouse. Victim #1 is still behind the head of the cyclist at that moment.

Nice to know about the shopping bag, but based on what that video shows, something certainly was on fire, plastic bags don't glow like that. All the subsequent reporting demonstrates is whatever was burning had burned away to ash and hadn't burned the bag. (Or option 2: Someone tampered with the crime scene before law enforcement arrived. Attention would have been on either Kyle or the shooter, not the stuff that the victim has left scattered around the area.)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2020, 06:39:05 PM by TheDeamon »

TheDrake

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #357 on: September 02, 2020, 08:01:45 PM »
I don't see any of what you're describing in that video. It doesn't help that YouTube doesn't exactly let you go frame by frame and adjust the contrast and deblur. Everything is backlit by bright floodlights. If only they had a Galaxy S20 we might have been able to see something. I've looked at the footage from other angles also, I'll try to find a link (most of that is blocked on this computer).

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #358 on: September 03, 2020, 11:33:52 AM »
I'm going to go out on a limb and say female #3 in that report is a friend of his, and when female #2 physically attacked #3, it was game on for him, in defense of #3.

Not a great character reference for Kyle if that is him in the video. But it isn't particularly damning either. He didn't escalate the fight into being physical, but once it did become physical he did intervene. The intervention leaves a lot to be desired, but it doesn't paint him as one to start trouble.
It sounds like you didn't watch the video at all, yet you are really bending over backwards to give Rittenhouse the benefit of the doubt.  Punching a girl from behind is defensible (not trying to restrain the girl, but wailing away) and shooting someone in the head was OK because - molotov cocktail.  Shooting the skateboarder who was trying to wrest the long gun away from Rittenhouse was OK because he feared for his life.  These are the benefits of the doubt not given to Blake, or the people that Rittenhouse shot.

I watched the video, and what I saw matched up with what the reporter wrote, which you snipped in your quote back of my post wondering if I watched the video?
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Moments later, the argument escalates as the teen identified as Rittenhouse and another male begin exchanging words with the female in sweatpants. Seconds after that, the female in sweatpants starts scuffling with a third female.

Rittenhouse then appears to land several punches on the female in sweatpants as another male nearby tries unsuccessfully to hold Rittenhouse back.

So in the video (which is briefly obstructed by a passing car) you see the girl in sweatpants shove the third girl just before the car blocks the view. Once the car ceases to block the view, you see Kyle going after the girl in sweats. Kyle did not initiate the physical conflict, the girl in sweats did when she started a catfight with the third girl. Which is why I'd suspect Kyle was "white-knighting" for Girl #3 in that instance, as she'd just been physically attacked.

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #359 on: September 03, 2020, 12:32:57 PM »
It's academic which of the two girls started the physical altercation (nice sexist "catfight" reference, BTW) but regardless, Rittenhouse attacked the girl in plaid/sweats from behind, punching her freely while she had her back to him.  This we used to call a 'Pearl Harbour' and was considered cowardly and reprehensible. He didn't attempt to restrain plaid/sweats girl.  He didn't try to get between them.  He jumped her from behind and punched her repeatedly.

It's been a long time since I was in boy scouts; have things changed that drastically?  Funny how, if this had been a video of Huber or Grosskreutz, I suspect your position would differ.

And even though it matters not which of the girls started the fight, your very particular visual filters somehow missed the other girl walking away, then returning to the girl in plaid/sweatpants (who was standing her ground) before herself initiating the physical altercation with the plaid/sweats girl.

I didn't bring this up to prove that Rittenhouse is particularly violent, or that this reflects in any way on his actions on the night he killed two people, but rather for the predictable way you would respond to the video.

rightleft22

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #360 on: September 03, 2020, 01:26:47 PM »
It takes a certain mental gymnastics of blaming the victim in order to justify our bias.

Rittenhouse had not businesses being out after curfew with a gun, arguably looking for trouble which his actions insured he would find. Anyone arguing Rittenhouse justifications for the homicide is missing the point or attempting to confuse the real issue behind why a 17 year old boy was engaged in the activity in the first place. 

Unless our "law and order' leaders call that out they are asking for such incidences to be repeated



TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #361 on: September 03, 2020, 08:48:26 PM »
It takes a certain mental gymnastics of blaming the victim in order to justify our bias.

Rittenhouse had not businesses being out after curfew with a gun, arguably looking for trouble which his actions insured he would find. Anyone arguing Rittenhouse justifications for the homicide is missing the point or attempting to confuse the real issue behind why a 17 year old boy was engaged in the activity in the first place. 

Unless our "law and order' leaders call that out they are asking for such incidences to be repeated

The 8PM Curfew applied to everyone, not just people under 18. So by your logic of "he had no business being out after curfew" then "his victims had no business being out after curfew" as well.

Extinguishing an act or arson is not criminal. It may be provocative with respect to the arsonist(s)(which victim #1 may have been one of), but that just establishes the arsonist as a criminal, not the guy who put out the fire. It may place the guy with the fire extinguisher up for a Darwin Award, but not criminal.

Being chased nearly 3 blocks before turning around after a gunshot and opening fire on the guy grabbing for his gun also does not demonstrate criminal intent on the part of Rittenhouse. You call it "victim blaming" only because Rittenhouse isn't the one who was killed, in that encounter everything points to Rittenhouse being the real victim(albeit a stupid one, the police were literally less than a hundred feet away from where the chase presumably started).

Being stupid isn't a crime.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #362 on: September 03, 2020, 09:25:03 PM »
Oh, and the video of the fire being put out. The service station in question is three blocks north of where the first shooting happened, and about a black and a half away from where the second and third shootings happened.

There is another Facebook livestream that showed someone that looked like Kyle carrying a fire extinguisher and running towards where the dumpster was, which would strongly suggest he was the one who put out the fire.

Also, for the really eagle eyed person, someone dressed like victim #1 appears to be one of the guys working around the dumpster.

https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1299058504813035520

Edit: And twitter messing with direct links strikes again. Second video is the fire being put out. First video is the same service station earlier that night, with Rosenbaum egging on militia members to shoot him.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 09:28:25 PM by TheDeamon »

TheDrake

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #363 on: September 03, 2020, 10:23:19 PM »
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black and a half

Freudian slip?

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #364 on: September 03, 2020, 10:42:01 PM »
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black and a half

Freudian slip?

Well, I could comment on the Kyle Rittenhouse shootings involve a Hispanic being chased by white guys, with two dead and one injured before it was over; and the white guys were ostensibly protesting for better treatment of minorities.

But then we'll probably devolve into "white Hispanics being white, not Hispanic" much like what happened with George Zimmerman.

Although his day in court also saw him acquitted. Don't be surprised when this case goes nowhere. I'd be shocked if Kyle spends a day in Prison for this.

rightleft22

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #365 on: September 04, 2020, 09:23:59 AM »
It takes a certain mental gymnastics of blaming the victim in order to justify our bias.

Rittenhouse had not businesses being out after curfew with a gun, arguably looking for trouble which his actions insured he would find. Anyone arguing Rittenhouse justifications for the homicide is missing the point or attempting to confuse the real issue behind why a 17 year old boy was engaged in the activity in the first place. 

Unless our "law and order' leaders call that out they are asking for such incidences to be repeated

The 8PM Curfew applied to everyone, not just people under 18. So by your logic of "he had no business being out after curfew" then "his victims had no business being out after curfew" as well.

Extinguishing an act or arson is not criminal. It may be provocative with respect to the arsonist(s)(which victim #1 may have been one of), but that just establishes the arsonist as a criminal, not the guy who put out the fire. It may place the guy with the fire extinguisher up for a Darwin Award, but not criminal.

Being chased nearly 3 blocks before turning around after a gunshot and opening fire on the guy grabbing for his gun also does not demonstrate criminal intent on the part of Rittenhouse. You call it "victim blaming" only because Rittenhouse isn't the one who was killed, in that encounter everything points to Rittenhouse being the real victim(albeit a stupid one, the police were literally less than a hundred feet away from where the chase presumably started).

Being stupid isn't a crime.

Of course the curfew applied to everyone. And it was interesting how the Chief of Police used that argument to blame the victims while saying nothing about the militia that were out to play.

The curfew is point that the police did once again show that they responded differently to situations depending on who you were. But that is a minor point with regards to Rittenhouse.

Rittenhouse as a armed 17 year old boy had no business being were he was or doing what he was doing period.  You can try to justify how he handled the situation he found himself but him getting into that situation is the problem. A Problem most definitely wasn't representing "Law and Order'.  By ignoring the issue of Rittenhouse being where he was and doing what he was as part of a militia what signal is being sent with regards to Law and Order your man says hes all about?  Just more hypocrisy.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #366 on: September 04, 2020, 12:34:01 PM »
Rittenhouse as a armed 17 year old boy had no business being were he was or doing what he was doing period.  You can try to justify how he handled the situation he found himself but him getting into that situation is the problem. A Problem most definitely wasn't representing "Law and Order'.  By ignoring the issue of Rittenhouse being where he was and doing what he was as part of a militia what signal is being sent with regards to Law and Order your man says hes all about?  Just more hypocrisy.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this as it seems partisan blinders are in full force on this issue.

Of course the bigger issue is that the proverbial gulf on this one is large enough that it has very ominous indicators for what might start happening all too soon.

Nobody in their right mind should want to see that happen, but righteous indignation at the concept of people acting to protect private property, which is the entire purpose of having laws, is somehow a criminal act has reached utterly insane levels.

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #367 on: September 04, 2020, 12:59:29 PM »
but righteous indignation at the concept of people acting to protect private property, which is the entire purpose of having laws, is somehow a criminal act has reached utterly insane levels.
"the entire purpose of having laws" - no more so than protecting lives, yet those people out there "protecting the lives" of black people by protesting are considered to be criminals, and those people having killed people "protecting" black lives while "protecting" private property are considered heroes.

As an aside, the destruction of private property is not yet a capital offence, even in the USA, and nobody has yet given self appointed Judge Dredds carte blanche to arrest, try, convict, sentence and execute those who destroy private property.

And why is that?  Because pretty soon, you'll have Judge Dredds on all sides walking around and executing the law as they see fit.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #368 on: September 04, 2020, 01:27:51 PM »
but righteous indignation at the concept of people acting to protect private property, which is the entire purpose of having laws, is somehow a criminal act has reached utterly insane levels.
"the entire purpose of having laws" - no more so than protecting lives, yet those people out there "protecting the lives" of black people by protesting are considered to be criminals, and those people having killed people "protecting" black lives while "protecting" private property are considered heroes.

By protecting private property, you protect lives. Of course, living in  a post-industrial society, we don't appreciate scarcity in the same way as they did 200 years ago.. Or even 100 years ago for that matter. In the post-industrial setting "property is easy to replace"(insurance, government assistance) up to a point, so it is easier to prioritize lives over property.

But that doesn't change the reality that the post-industrial world still rests firmly on the foundations of the pre-industrial one. It still requires private property to be protected, and for that private property to be able to perform its purpose. Sure a business owner may still have "private property" even after that rioter burned their business to the ground, but in the interim while they go through insurance and government hurdles to try to rebuild, they are out of an income, and their employees are too. The people they served in the community are no longer able to receive that service from a location convenient to them. (And that the riots are mainly hitting impoverished neighborhoods within limited mobility makes it that much more perverse)

YOU may just see a building that can be replaced. But for the people who live there, that was their in job, that was the difference between a 5 minute walk and an hour+ transferring between various buses to get where they're going. It is damage to their community and neighborhood that may not heal in their lifetime, South-Central LA still had neighborhoods recovering from the Rodney King riots before BLM came rolling through.

I'll begrudge the property owners their right to protect their property, even if it means some thugs end up dead. If you either think burning down your own neighborhood, or worse, somebody else's neighborhood is going to improve the prospects of that neighborhood, you don't deserve to be part of society. And if you cannot be dissuaded by non-lethal means, then lethal is certainly on the table. You are messing with lives there, and not just the lives of the business owner, or the people there defending it.

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As an aside, the destruction of private property is not yet a capital offence, even in the USA, and nobody has yet given self appointed Judge Dredds carte blanche to arrest, try, convict, sentence and execute those who destroy private property.

They wouldn't have carte-blanche, they'd be subject to review for their actions. Nobody has made claims otherwise? So why are you asserting a position nobody is claiming? However, having their actions reviewed by LEO's and maybe even the courts, is not the same thing as being sent to prison for their acts. Which is what you're probably truly talking about.

News Flash: Self-Defense/Defense of Others enables crimes that would not otherwise see a capital punishment effectively become capital crimes at the moment the offense is taking place, and only in that moment.

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And why is that?  Because pretty soon, you'll have Judge Dredds on all sides walking around and executing the law as they see fit.

It doesn't work the way you think it does.

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #369 on: September 04, 2020, 01:49:49 PM »
It doesn't work the way you think it does.
Of course not - no country has ever devolved into civil war... If you think only one side of any conflict is going to bear and use arms (in a country where there are more firearms than people, and a perception that using firearms is somehow righteous) and the other is going to perpetually avoid doing so, even when those arms start getting used... it doesn't work the way you think it does.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #370 on: September 04, 2020, 02:10:52 PM »
Based on what the media is doing, we're on the express train to some kind of Civil War once the November election results come out.

It'll hopefully remain political until the Election Results are being tabulated, but the narratives on both sides are already being rolled out so they can reject the results.

The current game being played is to see who can make the best claim (in November) on controlling the levers of Federal Power, but it's largely a shell game anyway. The "longer fuse" likely exists on the right in general, but other "on the right" are probably on a MUCH shorter one, and there will be a real risk that if the Dems win, the response to those short fused clowns is going to trigger a response from the rest.

Meanwhile, if a Trump win is announced, November and December are likely to be very long months to get through. Its going to get bad, quick, and its going to likely make what's been seen to date seem tame by comparison.

If you watch FOX almost all you hear about is left-wing violence and anarchy, never anything these days about C19, never anything about legitimate social grievances.  They are stoking fears of left-wing revolt and may indeed be hoping that they can provoke a backlash of violence and counter-revolt by what you call short- and long-fuse right-wing viewers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/09/03/trump-stay-in-office/
^^^ Not a right wing media outlet
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We wanted to know: What’s the worst thing that could happen to our country during the presidential election? President Trump has broken countless norms and ignored countless laws during his time in office, and while my colleagues and I at the Transition Integrity Project didn’t want to lie awake at night contemplating the ways the American experiment could fail, we realized that identifying the most serious risks to our democracy might be the best way to avert a November disaster. So we built a series of war games, sought out some of the most accomplished (Never-Trump) Republicans, Democrats, civil servants, media experts, pollsters and strategists around, and asked them to imagine what they’d do in a range of election and transition scenarios.

A landslide for Joe Biden resulted in a relatively orderly transfer of power. Every other scenario we looked at involved street-level violence and political crisis.

This is basically a recycling of a report they did on the same wargame and reported(elsewhere) back in July.

Weird how it seems the only peaceful transition scenario they came up with is the one where Biden wins...

Somebody's statement didn't age well.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #371 on: September 04, 2020, 03:12:05 PM »
Also in other news, the Lacey, Washington resident who shot and killed a Trump supporter "in self defense" in Portland, Oregon was killed after initiating a gunfight with Police who had arrived to serve an arrest warrant against him.

cherrypoptart

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #372 on: September 04, 2020, 11:49:16 PM »
Police have been killing black people for a long time. They were doing it during the Obama administration too. Mostly criminals of course, but sometimes mistakes are made. The point is this has been happening for a long time. While Obama was in office we didn't have all of these protests. We also didn't have #metoo. So what changed? What finally set these people off and made them blow up with rage? The same thing in both cases. Trump. The underlying issues and problems have been there all along but it wasn't a big deal, well it wasn't as big of a deal as it is now anyway, for only one reason. Trump wasn't in office.

In other words, this is all political and specifically politically targeted against Trump. The grievances are real but the current level of outrage is contrived.

If Hillary had won and especially if the Democrats controlled Congress and we had the same video of Floyd and the exact same other police incidents, all of these protests, the burning, the looting, the violence, wouldn't be happening.

Of course the police should be careful and professional. But understanding this is all an anti-Trump putsch makes taking these people seriously extremely challenging. Just looked up putsch to make sure I got it right: a violent attempt to overthrow a government. Close enough.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #373 on: September 05, 2020, 12:09:11 AM »
Of course the police should be careful and professional. But understanding this is all an anti-Trump putsch makes taking these people seriously extremely challenging. Just looked up putsch to make sure I got it right: a violent attempt to overthrow a government. Close enough.

Thing is, for a lot of these protesters, it probably is not an anti-Trump push, it's anti-United States, but we'll only see that put to the test should Biden win the election, and they continue to riot and burn. Of course, at that point the press probably won't be providing cover for them at least a year or so... So we'll see.

Most likely the narrative would be the post election rioters would be billed as "enraged Trump supporters" who just so happen to be rioting in predominately left-leaning cities, and where the people who keep getting arrested seem to have arrest record histories tied to protests in the area going back months...

cherrypoptart

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #374 on: September 05, 2020, 12:17:33 AM »
Absolutely the press is providing fuel and oxygen for the fire. During the Obama years they covered the stories with a gentle touch and give them just passing air time if they cover them at all. When there were negative stories of just about any kind they would make sure to keep Obama's name out of it at all costs whereas they do just the opposite now and work Trump's name into anything and everything that on which they can put any kind of negative spin. Under Biden the press will go back to the same kid glove and sweep it under the rug rules they had under Obama. There is really no way to exaggerate how despicably partisan the mainstream media has become, or perhaps always was but how they don't try to hide it anymore.

LetterRip

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #375 on: September 06, 2020, 04:53:06 PM »
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Absolutely the press is providing fuel and oxygen for the fire. During the Obama years they covered the stories with a gentle touch and give them just passing air time if they cover them at all.

No, they didn't give the police killings a 'light touch' under the Obama administration.  What happened that Obama made statements and actions that were clearly against immoral and unlawful killings by the police.  That he was concerned about the issue and taking action.

https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/07/politics/philando-castile-alton-sterling-josh-earnest/index.html

  Also smart phone penetration with usable video storage has drastically increased.  It went from 35% in 2011 (with most of those smart phones having poor cameras with limited storage), to 81% in middle of 2019 (and obviously well over 81% for 2020) (with pretty much even the cheapest smart phone having a good camera with reasonable storage - my 2 year old 25$ (+tax) smartphone had 16GB storage built in and shoots 1280x720 video), basically in 2020 only the extremely elderly and those too young to have a phone don't have a smartphone capable of video in the US.

Since these killings mostly take place in poorer neighborhoods, and smartphone penetration is among the wealthy first, the odds of these incidents being caught on camera has probably drastically increased since Obama.

When you have a President that makes excuses for racists and retweets, videos and other materials from white supremacists,  obviously it is a much more contentious issue. 

A President who invites people who waved guns at peaceful protesters who are protesting these killings

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/08/18/903478960/st-louis-couple-who-brandished-guns-at-black-protesters-to-speak-at-rnc

 to be speakers at his convention.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2020, 04:58:51 PM by LetterRip »

cherrypoptart

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #376 on: September 06, 2020, 06:08:21 PM »
So it seems like we basically agree then. There is one main difference between then and now. Trump.

The difference between it being a reaction to Trump himself and a reaction to Trump's response to these incidents compared to Obama's response is really no difference at all. These are anti-Trump protests.

Although I doubt there would be any difference if Trump did have the same responses as Obama, both in terms of his lip service or his band-aid so called police reforms. There would be no difference at all. Trump would still be the same racist and the protests would be exactly the same too. Just like #metoo. At their roots these are all just political, contrived, and transparent. Sorry to be so jaded but the antics of the Democrats and the media leave the observant skeptic little choice.

LetterRip

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #377 on: September 06, 2020, 10:51:16 PM »
So it seems like we basically agree then. There is one main difference between then and now. Trump.

No, you think it is 'because Trump'.  I said it is 'because of Trump's actions and inactions.  As well as more video means more atrocious police actions get recorded - with probably 3x as many video cameras, you'd expect a similar increase in recording and news reporting of police brutality.

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The difference between it being a reaction to Trump himself and a reaction to Trump's response to these incidents compared to Obama's response is really no difference at all. These are anti-Trump protests.

It is a major difference.  If Trump had a reasonable response to the police actions, there wouldn't have been much of a protest.  It is his complete inaction, indeed the complete opposite of inaction - he has actively antagonized the protesters in a number of ways and engaged in behaviours that can readily be interpreted as supporting of racists.

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Although I doubt there would be any difference if Trump did have the same responses as Obama, both in terms of his lip service or his band-aid so called police reforms.

There was real action and real reform done by Obama, that was reversed by Trump,

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In addition to curtailing pattern-or-practice investigations, the Justice Department in the Trump administration ended another program that helped scrutinize shortcomings in police departments. That program allowed the department’s Office of Community Oriented Policing Services, or COPS, to assess departments and work with them voluntarily on reform.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/the-trump-administration-abandoned-obama-era-police-reform-efforts-now-critics-want-them-restored/2020/06/01/4615bc1c-a413-11ea-b473-04905b1af82b_story.html


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There would be no difference at all. Trump would still be the same racist and the protests would be exactly the same too.

Trump actively reversed Obama implemented reforms.

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Just like #metoo. At their roots these are all just political, contrived, and transparent. Sorry to be so jaded but the antics of the Democrats and the media leave the observant skeptic little choice.

A prominent Democratic Senator was forced to resign due to metoo, even though the 'evidence' was clearly him doing a comedy bit.

You seem to ignore all evidence even though it is overwhelmingly against your beliefs.

wmLambert

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #378 on: September 07, 2020, 12:06:11 PM »
...If Trump had a reasonable response to the police actions, there wouldn't have been much of a protest.  It is his complete inaction, indeed the complete opposite of inaction - he has actively antagonized the protesters in a number of ways and engaged in behaviours that can readily be interpreted as supporting of racists.

You do realize that is 180° out of whack? Trump immediately jumped in on the side of law and order. One does not take sides based on knee-jerk reaction to fake news. Those who do usually double-down and make it worse. He immediately came out stating that the knee on the throat was wrong, even though the medical community eventually labeled the death as not being asphyxiation, but a reaction to drugs in Floyd's system. The big point is not George Floyd, but any publicized event in time for the Democrats' plans before an election. Yes, the prevalence of iPhone cameras make such incidents easy to exploit, but this catalyst was just one of many that never reached an incendiary level until this point in time.

Even with all the unfair attacks against Trump "siding" with White Supremacists, which definitely he did not do, he supported law and order to the max.

wmLambert

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #379 on: September 07, 2020, 12:32:43 PM »
...Trump actively reversed Obama implemented reforms.

Yes, he did, to the betterment of the nation and to law and order. There may have been a spotted owl somewhere who didn't find a Kmart sign to nest in, but otherwise, his correction of Obama overreach was impressive and measurably on the side of goodness and light. Trumps' reforms in the criminal justice genré has resulted in improved metrics you cannot refute. This is the single reason the Democrats have targeted law and order to take success away from the President.

yossarian22c

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #380 on: September 09, 2020, 07:59:21 AM »
https://www.npr.org/2020/09/09/910975499/autistic-13-year-old-boy-shot-by-salt-lake-city-police

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A police officer in Salt Lake City, Utah shot a 13-year-old boy with Asperger syndrome on Friday after his mother called 911 seeking help for her son, who was experiencing a mental health crisis.
...

Barton reportedly told officers that her son was unarmed, describing him as "a kid ... trying to get attention, he doesn't know how to regulate."

She said she was told to stay put when officers arrived at her house. Within minutes, Barton said, she heard voices yelling, "Get down on the ground," followed by several gunshots.

Another crap fest by the cops.

TheDrake

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #381 on: September 09, 2020, 09:49:09 AM »
https://www.npr.org/2020/09/09/910975499/autistic-13-year-old-boy-shot-by-salt-lake-city-police

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A police officer in Salt Lake City, Utah shot a 13-year-old boy with Asperger syndrome on Friday after his mother called 911 seeking help for her son, who was experiencing a mental health crisis.
...

Barton reportedly told officers that her son was unarmed, describing him as "a kid ... trying to get attention, he doesn't know how to regulate."

She said she was told to stay put when officers arrived at her house. Within minutes, Barton said, she heard voices yelling, "Get down on the ground," followed by several gunshots.

Another crap fest by the cops.

That austistic kid had it comin I tell ya. What do you expect when you're 13 years old and unarmed but won't obey commands? He might have tried to bite one of the officers! Again I will point out how unarmed people who are not cops could have responded to this, including someone who works in a home for troubled youth, a prison guard, a nurse....

I might puke if I hear anybody tell us how we've got to "wait to learn more" and "perhaps the officers were justified."

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #382 on: September 09, 2020, 10:15:38 AM »
What I don't understand is that, in the current climate, with so much focus on police shootings and violence, what police officer wouldn't go out of their way (even to the point of allowing themselves to be injured by an unarmed 13-year-old) to avoid shooting said autistic child / adolescent?

I honestly question what was going through their mind...

Fenring

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #383 on: September 09, 2020, 10:42:45 AM »
I honestly question what was going through their mind...

Probably the same thing going through the mind of a mafia hitman during the era of the FBI: don't worry, your butt is covered and you'll be taken care of.

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #384 on: September 09, 2020, 10:55:29 AM »
I honestly question what was going through their mind...

Probably the same thing going through the mind of a mafia hitman during the era of the FBI: don't worry, your butt is covered and you'll be taken care of.
You jest (I think) but clearly, when pointing one's gun at a young person who is behaving in... concerning ways... I doubt one is thinking about the union and/or the thin blue line.

Also, whether one used to believe that they were protected even a couple of years ago, any cop who doesn't realize that their world has changed, that there is always a video, that the internet is rife with people who hate cops specifically, but also who hate people on general principles, that mayors are much more ready to throw specific cops under the bus... well, they probably need to reevaluate their basic premises.

Fenring

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #385 on: September 09, 2020, 11:24:07 AM »
You jest (I think) but clearly, when pointing one's gun at a young person who is behaving in... concerning ways... I doubt one is thinking about the union and/or the thin blue line.

Actually I was being completely serious. If you don't think the "I can hide behind others" mentality exists even more so in a crisis than any other time then I think you need to reconsider how a mob works. Angry mobs consist of essentially average people, most of whom are probably cowardly, whose 'courage' consists of psychologically hiding behind the others in the crowd both morally and physically. The mob does not consist of brave warriors who would march into single combat for justice, but rather people who would flee if they realized the pack wasn't covering them in every way. That's why people in a mob mentality can do things they would "never" do, because they believe it won't be seen as them doing it but the crowd. In the case of police officers it is likely a variant of this, in wolf pack form, where only as part of a pack do they feel confident to take on even a weaker opponent. That feeling of "no one can take us on, we are strong, you mess with me you mess with all of us" is never absent from their minds, which is also likely why cops feel so emboldened to do things that you would think almost no one other than psychotic maniacs would do. It's because they think it 'doesn't count' in some way. or that the pack is stronger than the opposition.

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Also, whether one used to believe that they were protected even a couple of years ago, any cop who doesn't realize that their world has changed, that there is always a video, that the internet is rife with people who hate cops specifically, but also who hate people on general principles, that mayors are much more ready to throw specific cops under the bus... well, they probably need to reevaluate their basic premises.

You can include with the above that people are stupid, and entrenched bureaucracies won't change unless absolutely forced to. You can tell them enough is enough, and they can even see it happen to someone else, but then they'll think "oh this will blow over", or "our DA will do better for us than that other one where cops were indicted." I mean, I agree, you would think that at some point all governors and DA's would utterly clamp down on this. But I guess this illustrates that it hasn't happened yet. The evidence speaks for itself, no one actually cares unless the public goes apesh**.

rightleft22

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #386 on: September 09, 2020, 11:45:54 AM »
I watched the Circus interview of the Kenosha police chief and I think the Sheriff.
Its was a reasoned discussion on the current moral, the difficulties of the job....
When asked about Jacob the chief admitted that when viewing the video it looks like a failure of good policing and so he understand the reaction. And then he moves to the general explaining that usually when all the information comes to like its found their were good reasons for things having unfolded the way they did which exonerates/excuses the police.   (No thoughts on evaluating if there was a failure in policies or procedures or anything.

Everything the officers said was reasonable but on second look they were refusing to take responsibility for bad policing or even considering that just maybe their could be better ways to do their job.
Working in a Job were every failure is examined to improve procedures I just don't get it.

IMO the interview was a good example as to why the problems are systemic. Built into the system which only a calm rethinking of the role of police has a chance of changing. 

As a society we have asked the police to do to much. Because were to cheep to take care of those with mental health issues we are left with only the police to call. The average cop that sees ever problem as a nail and themselves as a hammer isn't going handle such situation well. Its time to step back and calmly seek out ways that we, society and police might do things better.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #387 on: September 09, 2020, 11:53:49 AM »
What I don't understand is that, in the current climate, with so much focus on police shootings and violence, what police officer wouldn't go out of their way (even to the point of allowing themselves to be injured by an unarmed 13-year-old) to avoid shooting said autistic child / adolescent?

I honestly question what was going through their mind...

Something tells me that information was communicated to dispatch by the mother, but that information was either not communicated to the police who responded to the scene, or the officer who opened fire ignored the advisory(if it ever came). In either case, not excusable in any way.

rightleft22

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #388 on: September 09, 2020, 12:36:43 PM »
The mother's only option in such a situation should not have been a call to police. Its not just the police who failed here but society. 

TheDrake

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #389 on: September 09, 2020, 01:39:22 PM »
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At a press conference, Sgt Horrocks said officers were called to a "violent psych issue" and reports that a boy - who they did not name - had made "threats to some folks with a weapon". He added that there was no indication when they attended that the boy was armed.

An officer shot the boy when he tried to flee on foot, Sgt Horrocks said.

We're taking you to the hospital, even if we have to shoot you while you run away from us.

Fenring

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #390 on: September 09, 2020, 01:58:38 PM »
We're taking you to the hospital, even if we have to shoot you while you run away from us.

I expect it's more of "we will use any and all force if you do not comply with our orders." The issue of officers acting as if anything they command you to do is legally binding (and upon pain of death) is possibly the worst aspect of the policing problems right now. Because even in non-lethal encounters if you don't comply with a command they will count is as "escalating" even if they have no lawful right to issue that command.

TheDrake

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #391 on: September 11, 2020, 05:43:09 PM »
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Houston Texans' defensive end JJ Watt was left confused by boos from fans during a pre-game 'moment of unity' as protests against racism took place on the opening night of the NFL season.

Pockets of the crowd at the Kansas City Chiefs' stadium booed as players linked arms shortly before the game started.

So can we now stop with the pretense that objections are really about dishonoring veterans, and recognize it for what it is? An inability to cope with the fact that racism exists and we should be against it.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #392 on: September 11, 2020, 06:47:43 PM »
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Houston Texans' defensive end JJ Watt was left confused by boos from fans during a pre-game 'moment of unity' as protests against racism took place on the opening night of the NFL season.

Pockets of the crowd at the Kansas City Chiefs' stadium booed as players linked arms shortly before the game started.

So can we now stop with the pretense that objections are really about dishonoring veterans, and recognize it for what it is? An inability to cope with the fact that racism exists and we should be against it.

It is not the what that is in dispute for me, or most others. Of course Racism exists, it probably always will on some level.

What we're taking exception to is the how they're going about trying to address the issue. Most of what they're doing, with allegedly good intentions, isn't helping ameliorate the problem they profess to be concerned with, arguably they're making things worse for many people. But hey, when the Left Wing idiots are taking White Fragility as one of their new holy books, where the author is a self-described racist, hey. Who am I to tell them they might be on the wrong track. Keep following those suggestions from the racist.

DonaldD

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #393 on: September 11, 2020, 10:16:23 PM »
Could there be anything more inoffensive than linking arms?  Admit it - there is simply no action that those people could take that would be a "correct" action.

wmLambert

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #394 on: September 12, 2020, 02:09:03 PM »
Could there be anything more inoffensive than linking arms?  Admit it - there is simply no action that those people could take that would be a "correct" action.

Yes, if football players, for instance, just went about entertaining and playing the game - and not acting like philosophers, it would be greatly appreciated.

TheDrake

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #395 on: September 12, 2020, 02:21:36 PM »
Shut up and entertain us! You probably would have been foaming at the mouth in 68, so you'll have to go further back to find favor for that sentiment.

TheDeamon

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #396 on: September 12, 2020, 03:25:45 PM »
Could there be anything more inoffensive than linking arms?  Admit it - there is simply no action that those people could take that would be a "correct" action.

The Dance-Off competition outside the ICE facility in Portland a couple nights ago was fine by me, they evidently didn't set any fires, or destroy anything. They're welcome to do that all they wish.

cherrypoptart

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #397 on: September 13, 2020, 10:31:53 AM »

"LA County Sheriffs
@LASDHQ
Replying to @LASDHQ
To the protesters blocking the entrance & exit of the HOSPITAL EMERGENCY ROOM yelling "We hope they die" referring to 2 LA Sheriff's ambushed today in #Compton: DO NOT BLOCK EMERGENCY ENTRIES & EXITS TO THE HOSPITAL. People's lives are at stake when ambulances can't get through."

wmLambert

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #398 on: September 13, 2020, 02:12:58 PM »
Shut up and entertain us! You probably would have been foaming at the mouth in 68, so you'll have to go further back to find favor for that sentiment.

Too bad your supposed intellect fails you so often. During the Detroit riots in "68, I had to lock our carhops in the freezer at the A&W restaurant where I worked, when the entire Outlaws motorcycle gang pulled in as the official curfew was to start because of the riots. There was much unrest, and the protests were totally out of control. We were lucky that day, because the leader of the gang walked up to the window, and took off his helmet. He was the place kicker for our High School  football team.

In '66, I earned my Regents Grant to the University of Michigan for leading a student protest against the first Teacher's Strike in the nation. My coaches honored the strike, but the team we were scheduled to play for our first game, had coaches that were working out with their team. As captain, I got my picture on the front page of the Royal Oak Tribune, with a local sheriff threatening to fill my backside full of buckshot, but the school board sent out an official to open the locker room and our equipment so we could practice. The UM Regents gave grants to leaders to create a student leadership group of positive leaders because of those riots. My pre-induction group consisted of high school leaders who had double credentials, both Class President or President of the student body and Captain of a team. there were close to a hundred of us, and we watched the political culture in the whole nation tank.

No. I understand what is right and what is wrong.

TheDrake

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Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
« Reply #399 on: September 13, 2020, 06:24:18 PM »
We were talking about non violent sports protests. I didn't think I had to spell out that I was referring to the famous raising of fists on the Olympic podium. But at least you've confirmed that you thought that the Civil rights movement was wrong. I'm sorry that you're pining for the 50s.