Author Topic: Voting mechanisms  (Read 6507 times)

TheDeamon

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #200 on: October 22, 2020, 07:21:38 PM »
Trump's Army has kicked off their voter intimidation program:

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The Sheriff [Bob Gualtieri] told me the persons that were dressed in these security uniforms had indicated to sheriff’s deputies that they belonged to a licensed security company and they indicated—and this has not been confirmed yet—that they were hired by the Trump campaign,” said Marcus in a video interview with 8 On Your Side’s Chip Osowski Wednesday night.

There is almost no chance that these men were actually hired by the Trump campaign, and the Trump campaign has denied they were involved. Of course, this was completely expected to happen, and people warned about it happening, after Trump encouraged people to do just this on numerous occasions.

And wouldn't it be ironic if they either never find who hired them, or they were connected to left-wing groups?

edit: and I guess its a good thing that information likely won't come to light until after the election.

yossarian22c

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #201 on: October 28, 2020, 11:51:27 AM »
https://www.npr.org/2020/10/27/928385599/a-newly-sworn-in-justice-barrett-faces-a-motion-to-recuse-herself-in-election-ca

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It arises in an effort by Pennsylvania state Republicans to get a second bite at the apple in an election case decided by the court last week by a tie vote. The issue last week: whether to allow absentee ballots to be counted up to three days after the election, as long as the ballots were postmarked by election day. Chief Justice Roberts sided with the court's three liberals in the case based on his view that in a situation like this, close to the election, state courts should be able to interpret state law. The court's other conservatives wanted to block the state court ruling, but a tie vote means the state court ruling remains in place.

What part of the federal constitution requires the SC to override a state court on a state law? Since conservatives are "textualists". Give me the passage of the constitution or federal law that would support their overruling a state court in this way.

Its such crap the Republicans want as few votes to be counted as possible.

TheDeamon

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #202 on: October 28, 2020, 12:35:13 PM »
What part of the federal constitution requires the SC to override a state court on a state law? Since conservatives are "textualists". Give me the passage of the constitution or federal law that would support their overruling a state court in this way.

Its such crap the Republicans want as few votes to be counted as possible.

Equal protection clause, as it pertains to a federal election.

yossarian22c

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #203 on: October 28, 2020, 12:40:19 PM »
What part of the federal constitution requires the SC to override a state court on a state law? Since conservatives are "textualists". Give me the passage of the constitution or federal law that would support their overruling a state court in this way.

Its such crap the Republicans want as few votes to be counted as possible.

Equal protection clause, as it pertains to a federal election.

And accepting ballots postmarked up to the day of the election violates the equal protection clause in what way?

msquared

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #204 on: October 28, 2020, 12:41:36 PM »
If taxes can be accepted if they are post marked by a certain day, I think votes should be able to be counted if they are post marked by a certain day (election day).

DonaldD

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #205 on: October 28, 2020, 12:50:08 PM »
it is not unheard of for some mail to be delivered within 2 days, and some mail to take week or even two.  The idea that somehow, votes cast and mailed 7 days in advance should be discarded if USPS has a glitch is ridiculous.

Does that limitation also pertain to military ballots cast that only arrive after election day? And if not, why not?

TheDeamon

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #206 on: October 28, 2020, 01:03:54 PM »
What part of the federal constitution requires the SC to override a state court on a state law? Since conservatives are "textualists". Give me the passage of the constitution or federal law that would support their overruling a state court in this way.

Its such crap the Republicans want as few votes to be counted as possible.

Equal protection clause, as it pertains to a federal election.

And accepting ballots postmarked up to the day of the election violates the equal protection clause in what way?

Well, obviously the Court was split on that matter. And that also is outside the scope of the question of "What part of the federal constitution requires the SC to override a state court on a state law"" The Equal protections clause allows the SCotUS to overturn state court decisions on matters of state law, if they can justify the relationship of that law to the US Constitution in some way. Unless you want to assert that SCotUS has no grounds to overturn things like Jim Crow laws?

yossarian22c

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #207 on: October 28, 2020, 01:18:32 PM »
What part of the federal constitution requires the SC to override a state court on a state law? Since conservatives are "textualists". Give me the passage of the constitution or federal law that would support their overruling a state court in this way.

Its such crap the Republicans want as few votes to be counted as possible.

Equal protection clause, as it pertains to a federal election.

And accepting ballots postmarked up to the day of the election violates the equal protection clause in what way?

Well, obviously the Court was split on that matter. And that also is outside the scope of the question of "What part of the federal constitution requires the SC to override a state court on a state law"" The Equal protections clause allows the SCotUS to overturn state court decisions on matters of state law, if they can justify the relationship of that law to the US Constitution in some way. Unless you want to assert that SCotUS has no grounds to overturn things like Jim Crow laws?

You're correct, my original question wasn't specific enough. I understand the SC can rule on state issues if the state is in violation of the constitution or federal laws.

What specific part of the constitution is violated by accepting mail in ballots postmarked by election day up to 3 days after the election? The strict textualist is the conservatives on the benches stated philosophy. Unless the state is violating the constitution or federal law then by their own judicial reasoning should defer to the state court. Or is their judicial philosophy is just a bunch of post hoc reasoning that generally arrives at their preferred positions but can be discarded when the correct conclusions aren't reached.

wmLambert

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #208 on: October 28, 2020, 11:24:45 PM »
...What specific part of the constitution is violated by accepting mail in ballots postmarked by election day up to 3 days after the election? The strict textualist is the conservatives on the benches stated philosophy. Unless the state is violating the constitution or federal law then by their own judicial reasoning should defer to the state court. Or is their judicial philosophy is just a bunch of post hoc reasoning that generally arrives at their preferred positions but can be discarded when the correct conclusions aren't reached.

The basis is from the writings of our Founders as they explained their reasoning in the Federalist Papers and Anti-Federalist Papers. Much of their concern was for timely action while still protecting the voters. That is why Absentee Ballots have secrecy inner envelopes and verification numbers to help keep the process honest. The idea is to get the Electors in the Electoral College the info they need to understand their State's preferences so they can select the President at a given point in time. There are very few who think votes that come in late need to be counted. It is similar to the complaint by Dems that Voter ID is unimportant. It is very important. We have poll watchers for a reason. Stringing out collection and harvesting of ballots in both place and time allows scrutiny to be by-passed.

Since the CDC said that Coronavirus should have no effect on voting in person, there is no rationalization for unsolicited ballots being harvested after the fact. The chain of evidence is as valid for votes as for legal items being admissible in Court.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 11:27:55 PM by wmLambert »

yossarian22c

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #209 on: October 29, 2020, 10:07:18 AM »
...What specific part of the constitution is violated by accepting mail in ballots postmarked by election day up to 3 days after the election? The strict textualist is the conservatives on the benches stated philosophy. Unless the state is violating the constitution or federal law then by their own judicial reasoning should defer to the state court. Or is their judicial philosophy is just a bunch of post hoc reasoning that generally arrives at their preferred positions but can be discarded when the correct conclusions aren't reached.

The basis is from the writings of our Founders as they explained their reasoning in the Federalist Papers and Anti-Federalist Papers.

Fail. Not in the constitution or federal law. Get on the textualist bandwagon.

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Much of their concern was for timely action while still protecting the voters. That is why Absentee Ballots have secrecy inner envelopes and verification numbers to help keep the process honest. The idea is to get the Electors in the Electoral College the info they need to understand their State's preferences so they can select the President at a given point in time.

Double fail. Founders didn't care about a 3 day delay. Counting ballots for 3 days following the election is not going to cause a delay so large as to cause a constitutional crisis. During the time of the founders it may take people 3 days or more just to travel to report results from remote parts of the state to the state capital.

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There are very few who think votes that come in late need to be counted.

Triple fail. The state election commission and state supreme court of Pennsylvania think all votes postmarked by election day and received within 3 days of election day should be counted.

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It is similar to the complaint by Dems that Voter ID is unimportant. It is very important. We have poll watchers for a reason. Stringing out collection and harvesting of ballots in both place and time allows scrutiny to be by-passed.

Are you claiming the post office is going to be applying fraudulent post marks on ballots after election day to allow votes to be counted? And professional election workers who processed all the other ballots can't be trusted after election day to count mail in ballots postmarked by election day?

NobleHunter

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #210 on: October 29, 2020, 11:21:44 AM »
The Founders would have thought it normal for elections to take days if not weeks. There's a reason why your elections takes months to take effect where the rest of the democratic world can install new governments in weeks (assuming majorities for the various parliamentary systems anyways). There's nothing originalist about insisting on same day results.

I think it was another forum that posted an extract from the Federalist/Anti-Federalist papers about how the Electoral College was intended to diffuse the passions over an election by providing each state with a separate focus for election results instead of all hinging on one man. Spacing out State's definitive vote counts would be in accordance with that original intent.

TheDrake

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #211 on: October 29, 2020, 11:34:04 AM »
I wonder how many military ballots will show up after election day? What's that now? You want to keep allowing those?

DonaldD

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #212 on: October 29, 2020, 01:15:44 PM »
Starship Troopers.  We thought it was speculative fiction, but maybe...

TheDrake

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #213 on: October 29, 2020, 03:10:12 PM »
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There are very few who think votes that come in late need to be counted. It is similar to the complaint by Dems that Voter ID is unimportant.

So the vast cabal of Socialists bent on the destruction of America and the establishment of a police state to enslave us all are thwarted by the inability to do what college students have been doing for decades - the fake ID! Let's face it, poll workers aren't going to turn people away because they don't quite look like that person. They also lack electronic checks. I used my US passport to vote this year. At the airport, that goes into a scanner and the bar code has to match something in a database. Without it, I could easily paper over my name and that poll worker isn't going to get weird about it. Bars and restaurants in many states have similar scanners. Poll stations don't.

ID laws won't stop the vast conspiracy, but they sure will stop legitimate voters. In what numbers, I have no idea.

Of course, we could establish a national ID like an internal passport that is consistent, and tie it to a database. Guess who is going to oppose that. The same conservatives who are clamoring for ID checks to vote. The extreme libertarians refuse to use air travel because the TSA demands to see their ID and logs their whereabouts.

msquared

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #214 on: October 29, 2020, 04:36:39 PM »
So here is my question. In the past 2 weeks two gentlemen that I know personally have died (they were 83 and 89 years old). If they had voted by mail, should their vote count? I am fairly sure they would have voted for Trump (and they may have done so, I do not know if they voted early or not).

I mean there is all this talk about verifying the vote. How do you handle this?

DonaldD

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #215 on: October 29, 2020, 04:55:30 PM »
What if somebody voted in the morning of election day, but died before the ballot boxes were opened?

I see no effective difference.  Valid votes were cast, they should be counted.  If their signatures were found not to match, they might have difficulty addressing that issue, though...

cherrypoptart

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #216 on: October 29, 2020, 05:33:32 PM »
I agree all votes should be counted even after the election. There is certainly nothing in the Constitution to prohibit or even discourage that.

The only problem is that some people ruin good things for everyone. Example? Lyndon Johnson. The issue is that Democrats have been known in the past to wait until after all the votes are cast, find out how many votes they lost by, and then miraculously manage to "find" just enough votes to put them back over the edge and win.

LetterRip

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #217 on: October 30, 2020, 09:48:26 PM »
Different states have different rules for dying after casting a ballot.  Some don't count it others do.

yossarian22c

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #218 on: November 01, 2020, 02:25:10 PM »
https://www.npr.org/2020/11/01/930052598/republicans-seek-to-toss-out-127-000-ballots-in-democratic-leaning-texas-county

And more Republican voter suppression lawsuits.

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Republicans in Texas have asked the courts to toss out some 127,000 early ballots cast by voters in Harris County, arguing that the votes — delivered via drive-through in the heavily Democratic area — violate the U.S. Constitution and should be deemed invalid.

The plaintiffs argue that the drive-throughs are an illegal extension of curbside voting, which is available at all county voting locations and is designated for people who have an illness or disability.

So curbside voting from your car is okay but drive through voting from your car violates the US Constitution. More crap. We're reaching a dangerous point in our democracy. The Republican party is systematically trying to make it harder to vote. This should scare everyone, disenfranchisement is going down a dark path.

Grant

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #219 on: November 01, 2020, 02:43:11 PM »

And more Republican voter suppression lawsuits.

 The Republican party is systematically trying to make it harder to vote. This should scare everyone, disenfranchisement is going down a dark path.

Counterview:

Steven F. Hotze is a conservative nutjob with no actual position within the Texas Republican Party.  Steve Toth is the only actual Republican with a job in the TX House of Reps.  Wendell Champion would probably get away with whatever he could to defeat Sheila Jackson Lee, and who can blame him? 

The lawsuit was denied by an all Republican Texas Supreme Court. 

So:  "Wacko Republicans are stopped by normal old-school Republicans" might be a better headline. 

yossarian22c

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #220 on: November 01, 2020, 03:03:38 PM »
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The plaintiffs, all Republicans, are conservative activist Steven Hotze, state Rep. Steve Toth of The Woodlands, congressional candidate Wendell Champion and judicial candidate Sharon Hemphill.

So conservative money man and three Republican candidates file the lawsuit. Still doesn't sound much better.

This is a new one after a similar lawsuit got thrown out.

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In the pending cases on drive-thru voting, the state’s highest civil court could rule on the pending case at any time, and U.S. District Judge Andrew Hanen has scheduled a hearing for Monday morning.

So a Monday hearing. I'm guessing the judge will toss this lawsuit out like the other similar ones. You can try to let the Republican party wash their hands of this but there are lawsuits with similar goals in Pennsylvania and other places all to make voting more difficult or to try to invalidate votes.

Grant

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #221 on: November 01, 2020, 03:23:29 PM »

So conservative money man and three Republican candidates file the lawsuit. Still doesn't sound much better.

You can try to let the Republican party wash their hands of this but there are lawsuits with similar goals in Pennsylvania and other places all to make voting more difficult or to try to invalidate votes.

The differences in our approach is that I don't see the Republican party as a monolithic entity with a single devious mind in control.  I don't see the Democratic party that way either.  You have all kinds of wackos at all sorts of levels making all kinds of weird lawsuits all over the place.  Tulsi Gabbard sued Hillary Clinton for calling her a favorite of the Russians.  I don't lead with "Democrats sue Hillary Clinton".  Are we going to ennumerate every single thrown out lawsuit and then tally them up and blame the entire Republican and Democratic parties?  Not me.  Have fun if you feel like it.  I'm more of the guy that would call out specific individuals for specific insanities.  But whatever.  If it motivates you to know that the Republican Party is some dark malevolent force out to repress the vote of democrats, have at it.  I'm sure Chase Manhattan and the Federalist Society is involved somehow. 

yossarian22c

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #222 on: November 01, 2020, 04:18:35 PM »

So conservative money man and three Republican candidates file the lawsuit. Still doesn't sound much better.

You can try to let the Republican party wash their hands of this but there are lawsuits with similar goals in Pennsylvania and other places all to make voting more difficult or to try to invalidate votes.

The differences in our approach is that I don't see the Republican party as a monolithic entity with a single devious mind in control.  I don't see the Democratic party that way either.  You have all kinds of wackos at all sorts of levels making all kinds of weird lawsuits all over the place.  Tulsi Gabbard sued Hillary Clinton for calling her a favorite of the Russians.  I don't lead with "Democrats sue Hillary Clinton".  Are we going to ennumerate every single thrown out lawsuit and then tally them up and blame the entire Republican and Democratic parties?  Not me.  Have fun if you feel like it.  I'm more of the guy that would call out specific individuals for specific insanities.  But whatever.  If it motivates you to know that the Republican Party is some dark malevolent force out to repress the vote of democrats, have at it.  I'm sure Chase Manhattan and the Federalist Society is involved somehow.

Its a long term systematic effort of the Republican party to restrict early voting, make it more difficult for many people to vote (voter ID), make it harder for people to get voting rights restored (Florida), limit polling places, and lots of other lawsuits that similarly make it difficult for peoples votes to be counted. Also all the lawsuits about not counting mail in ballots that are postmarked by election day but not received until after.

Along with those lawsuits about mail in voting we have the fact that the mail is being delivered more slowly in a couple democratic strongholds in swing states.

https://www.npr.org/2020/10/31/929826650/delays-still-plague-mail-deliveries-as-election-day-nears

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In metropolitan Detroit, for example, in the swing state of Michigan, the on-time delivery rate was 77.2%. In the rest of Michigan, the rate was higher, 88.67%.

In the pivotal state of Pennsylvania, a state seen as key to both President Trump and Democrat Joe Biden's election, the on-time rate was 55.82% in metropolitan Philadelphia.

If it were this one lawsuit you would be correct to call me out on attributing this action to the entire Republican party but this fits a pattern of Republican behavior to make voting more difficult and to attempt to have otherwise valid ballots discarded.


msquared

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #223 on: November 02, 2020, 04:03:44 PM »
The Republican federal judge has just thrown out the suite by the Texas  Republicans trying to disallow 127,000 drive up votes.  The Republican State Supreme Court told them to go away last night. Now this Republican federal judge has just told them the same thing.  He even asked why this type of voting was OK in the primaries, but not now.  He also told the plaintiffs that the had no standing to bring the case.

Looks like 127,000 votes in Texas are going to get counted.

DonaldD

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #224 on: November 02, 2020, 04:49:43 PM »
And on that note, the Speaker of the Texas House of Representatives, Republican Joe Straus, had this to say about his party on Facebook:

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Speaker Joe Straus
on Sunday

The lawsuit attempting to disenfranchise more than 100,000 voters in Harris County is patently wrong. All of us who believe in the core ideals of this country should want more votes counted and more voices heard. While it may be too late for this election, the Republican Party needs to return to a place where we win with ideas and persuasion rather than trying to intimidate and silence our fellow citizens. I hope all elected statewide leaders in the Texas Republican Party will stand up against these desperate tactics.


Word, Joe.

msquared

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #225 on: November 02, 2020, 05:34:37 PM »
Amen.

TheDrake

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Re: Voting mechanisms
« Reply #226 on: November 06, 2020, 12:05:36 PM »
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PHILADELPHIA — Two men with guns were arrested on Thursday night near Philadelphia’s convention center, where ballots are being counted, after officers received a tip that armed people were driving to the building in a Hummer, a Philadelphia police spokesman said.

Officers first spotted the silver Hummer around 10:20 p.m., parked about a block away from the convention center and unoccupied. A few minutes later, two officers on bicycles found the two armed men, neither of whom had a valid permit to carry in Pennsylvania, Sgt. Eric Gripp, the spokesman, said in a statement.

The police arrested the two men, who said that they owned the silver Hummer, in which the police found another gun, Sergeant Gripp said.

The arrests were first reported Thursday night by WPVI-TV, the local ABC affiliate, which aired footage of the police inspecting a silver Hummer with Virginia license plates. The station also aired footage of two window decals on the Hummer and a hat inside that seemed to reference QAnon, the conspiracy theory that includes the false narrative that a clique of pedophiles are plotting against President Trump.

Let's hope there isn't more of this. It is a good thing they got the tip, we can only wonder what their intention was.