Author Topic: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump  (Read 10123 times)

Wayward Son

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Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« on: August 24, 2020, 11:46:48 AM »
At a recent rally in Oshkosh, WI, Trump warned his followers:

Quote
We have to win the election. We can’t play games. Go out and vote. Do those beautiful absentee ballots, or just make sure your vote gets counted. Make sure because the only way we're going to lose this election is if the election is rigged. ... Remember that. It’s the only way we’re going to lose this election, so we have to be very careful.

"The only way we're going to lose this election is if the election is rigged."  Trump is right now behind in the polls.  If those polls are correct (and there are a lot of people who are trying their best to make them as accurate as they can), then he will legitimately lose come November.  But if he's convinced himself that he can't lose without the election being rigged, he will call upon his supporters to rise up and defend him and the country (in that order ;) ).

So, I'm curious.  Who's with him?  Who here will rise up and risk their liberty, lives and livelihood to defend Donald Trump's presidency if he is declared the loser in the election?  Who will stand by him in his hour of need?  Because he's already told you that the only way he can lose is if the election is rigged.  And then you are his only hope.

So who's with him?

Fenring

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2020, 12:04:19 PM »
Not that I welcome rhetoric suggesting not respecting the results of an election, but this "Trump wants to be a dictator for life" nonsense makes everyone posting it sound like an idiot, sorry WS (not personally attacking you). Not just an idiot, but actually trying to create and stoke fear for the purpose of making people fall in line. It's really bad, both politically but also socially. Encouraging an entire generation of people that saying untrue things because it will yield a good result (generating Trump hate) will be more destructive to the country than any short-term damage a bad President could do.

That being said, if we're talking about 'rising up' and refusing to respect the results of an election, I sort of thing the soft version of that has already happened in 2016. Both the media and some in politics seemed set on ousting him right out of the gate, so I don't see how that's much different from "if the Dems lose we'll rise up and stop Trump." If you want it to be nice, then be nice!

TheDeamon

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2020, 12:12:50 PM »
Rasmussen and CNN bothhave Trump within 4 points of Biden, coming out of the DNC convention, which typically sees a bump for the candidate who just held their convention. (Trump's favorability rating also went up more than Biden's did this past week)

4 points is also within the margin of error. Even more problematic this cycle is Trump voters have widely expressed distrust of the pollsters to the extent they've said they would(or already have) lied to the pollsters about who they're voting for.

This also further ignores the other issue where most polling operations also acknowledge they still haven't been able to "reliably reach Trump voters" for the purpose of polling them. This was an issue widely understood to exist after 2016, and is largely unresolved to this day. (And is compounded by the Conservative/Trump voters being inclined to lie or misdirect if they do get polled)

With all of the mail-in voting that will happen, and the Democrat's push for even more of it, I strongly suspect we're going to be looking at an inconclusive electoral outcome by the time the Electors are supposed to be casting their ballots. It's going to be far worse than the 2000 SNAFU with Bush vs Gore in Florida.

DonaldD

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2020, 12:19:12 PM »
538's poll of polls has Biden increasing his lead nationally from 8.6 last week to 9.2 this week

As for "refusing to respect the results of an election", acting as an opposition party and holding the government to account is not refusing to respect the results. Neither is reporting on the disfunction, illegal acts and convictions of administration officials, fact checking the liar in chief, nor even arguing that Trump's actions are impeachable.

Fenring

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2020, 12:22:53 PM »
As for "refusing to respect the results of an election", acting as an opposition party and holding the government to account is not refusing to respect the results. Neither is reporting on the disfunction, illegal acts and convictions of administration officials, fact checking the liar in chief, nor even arguing that Trump's actions are impeachable.

Trying to initiate impeachment proceedings the day after an election result surely *is* 'not respecting the results' of an election. It's literally the last stop prior to open defiance or revolt. And I think you may be employing a misnomer when you name "opposition party". A party is an opposition party because they opposed you during an election and lost, not because once you are in power they openly oppose you and try to destabilize the government.

TheDeamon

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2020, 12:34:10 PM »
538's poll of polls has Biden increasing his lead nationally from 8.6 last week to 9.2 this week

As for "refusing to respect the results of an election", acting as an opposition party and holding the government to account is not refusing to respect the results. Neither is reporting on the disfunction, illegal acts and convictions of administration officials, fact checking the liar in chief, nor even arguing that Trump's actions are impeachable.

Respect what results? I expect that Trump and Biden's campaigns will be litigating over ballots that were "Set aside" right up to the middle of December as they try to flip states one way or another, as there likely will be enough mail-in ballots in that category for them to potentially impact results.

People don't seem to want to appreciate that the rate at which mail-in ballots have historically been "set aside" is a very large multiple of what is seen with in person ballots.

And then you have things like the New Jersey election from earlier this year, where a judge has ordered them to do it over again because it had so many problems.

Wayward Son

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2020, 12:38:22 PM »
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Not that I welcome rhetoric suggesting not respecting the results of an election, but this "Trump wants to be a dictator for life" nonsense makes everyone posting it sound like an idiot, sorry WS (not personally attacking you). Not just an idiot, but actually trying to create and stoke fear for the purpose of making people fall in line. It's really bad, both politically but also socially. Encouraging an entire generation of people that saying untrue things because it will yield a good result (generating Trump hate) will be more destructive to the country than any short-term damage a bad President could do.

No offense taken, Fenring.  I am sincerely hoping that I am being paranoid and making a huge mountain out of a molehill.

But Trump keeps doing and saying things that indicate that, if (or when) he loses the next election, he will declare it rigged, a fraud, and null and void.  And since he has no legal leg to stand on (even if the election was rigged and declared void, he would still lose his job come January 20), he would have to call upon extra-legal means to hold his position.  And since he does not have the support of senior military personnel (from the indications that I've seen), that only leaves his followers.

I want everyone, especially his followers, to consider what they will do if he calls for an uprising.  Are they with him?  Against him?  Going to hunker down in their homes and play "Mine Craft" instead? :)  Call it disaster planning. ;)

It is outrageous and unimaginable that a President of the United States would call upon his supporters to try to overthrow the government of the United States.  But has the year 2020 been overall.  And so is the idea that the President would tell his supporters that the only way he could lose was if the election was rigged, when it is obvious to the most disinterested observer that he is not wildly popular and could easily lose.  So it is no longer unimaginable.

I don't want anyone to put their lives and livelihoods on the line for Trump.  But he may ask it from you.  And I want everyone to think about what they would do in that possibility.  I don't want to see anyone on this board hurt. :(

TheDeamon

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2020, 12:46:36 PM »
This is the likely outcome of the 2020 Presidential Election.

The outcome will be decided by Congress, the party in control of the House is likely going to be the one that decides.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compromise_of_1877

TheDrake

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2020, 12:47:43 PM »
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Not that I welcome rhetoric suggesting not respecting the results of an election, but this "Trump wants to be a dictator for life" nonsense makes everyone posting it sound like an idiot

He's suggested delaying the elections. He's suggested that he deserves a third term. Trump seems to have few problems with de-facto dictators or leaders for life (China, NK, Russia)

He says things like this:

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“He speaks, and his people sit up at attention,” Trump said on Friday morning of North Korean despot Kim Jong Un in an interview with Fox News — a network where he receives no shortage of praise. “I want my people to do the same.”

While it is still a far stretch to think that he's going to try to stay in power forever, I think there's ample reason for people to be concerned about his authoritarian impulses. Add to this mix those fanatics who back up everything he says and does, and the kindling is out there.

wmLambert

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2020, 01:02:36 PM »
...A party is an opposition party because they opposed you during an election and lost, not because once you are in power they openly oppose you and try to destabilize the government.

Destabilize the government is right. That attempt is sedition and treason. Obama rode the sabotage of the economy into office. The Democrats outlawed coal, off-shore drilling, Fracking, pipelines, and drilling in Anwar. They admitted their effort by encouraging "Staycations" and stopping tourism. McCarran Airport in Vegas cut their flights in by more than half. Schumer wrote an illegal letterthat claimed IndyMac was bankrupt when it wasn't - which caused third party Dubais World investors to cancel their funding, which closed all construction in Vegas. Echelon, alone, caused tens of thousands of construction workers to be thrown out of work, and all other construction followed suit and no one could pay their mortgages. The Real Estate market tanked. Homes in Vegas were 50 cents on the dollar. It spread all over the country - and the Dems blamed Bush 43 for their own perfidy.

That worked for them then, and they picked the sabotage trick again after Obama's time was up and Trump had won. It worked for the midterm election so they picked up the House. Forget the pandemic and riots and looting. Just the vote scams possible with mail-in ballots is enough to steal the election for Democrats. The 3+ year coup attempt to get Trump failed, and he made the nation prosper in spite of their blocking everything they could. The MSM repeats everything the Dems claim without vetting, and ignore anything from Trump or the GOP.

Yes it is definitely about destabilizing the government.

yossarian22c

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2020, 01:11:18 PM »
Not that I welcome rhetoric suggesting not respecting the results of an election, but this "Trump wants to be a dictator for life" nonsense makes everyone posting it sound like an idiot, sorry WS (not personally attacking you). Not just an idiot, but actually trying to create and stoke fear for the purpose of making people fall in line. It's really bad, both politically but also socially.

Trump could do a lot to not stoke these fires by not: opining about a 3rd term, attacking the integrity of the election (but only if he's losing), and saying how great authoritarian rulers are all the time. The GOP could help by putting out a platform that isn't "whatever Trump says." I'm with Wayward in thinking this is somewhat an extreme what if at this point but Trump doesn't make it beyond the pale.


Sadly this is a real possibility and Trump has gotten people to go so far with him by incrementally changing their expectations. This has often started with things like, "what about a 3rd term," "if I lose the election was rigged," and then moved onto that thing actually happening. Take a look at the senate Russia report, it maps out tons of connections between the Trump campaign and Russian intelligence. Ask yourself 4 years ago if a presidential candidate were shown to be actively meeting with and being aided by a hostile foreign intelligence service if you would have considered that a cause for grave concern. Trump inoculated his supporters to it by admitting to certain things in drips while denying others, while at the same time saying even if we did x it wouldn't be illegal. This is what's happening around the upcoming election right now. "If I lose its rigged;" then whats Trump's response to losing then? Fight it out in the courts? Call for a new election? Declare the election invalid and himself the winner? Decide now what you're willing to support, otherwise Trump will keep dragging you down the rabbit hole into his distorted view of reality.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 01:13:25 PM by yossarian22c »

wmLambert

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2020, 01:14:26 PM »
...He's suggested delaying the elections. He's suggested that he deserves a third term. Trump seems to have few problems with de-facto dictators or leaders for life (China, NK, Russia)

Selective hearing, then. What Trump said is that if the election results are delayed too long, then Pelosi may claim the Presidency. He never said he would try to steal it, but he warned that Pelosi might. If the House gets to choose, it is a done deal. The Congressional mail-in ballots are able to be scammed even easier than the national elections. Because the MSM and DNC talking heads on all the complicit networks say he wants to stay in office beyond the election, he tweaks them outrageously. When the crowd chants, "Four more years!" he says why not twelve more?

Idiots take that seriously.

yossarian22c

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2020, 01:19:57 PM »
...He's suggested delaying the elections. He's suggested that he deserves a third term. Trump seems to have few problems with de-facto dictators or leaders for life (China, NK, Russia)

...
When the crowd chants, "Four more years!" he says why not twelve more?

Idiots take that seriously.

With supporters as brain washed as you, Americans ignore talk like that at their own peril.

TheDrake

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2020, 01:31:46 PM »
...He's suggested delaying the elections. He's suggested that he deserves a third term. Trump seems to have few problems with de-facto dictators or leaders for life (China, NK, Russia)

Selective hearing, then. What Trump said is that if the election results are delayed too long, then Pelosi may claim the Presidency. He never said he would try to steal it, but he warned that Pelosi might. If the House gets to choose, it is a done deal. The Congressional mail-in ballots are able to be scammed even easier than the national elections. Because the MSM and DNC talking heads on all the complicit networks say he wants to stay in office beyond the election, he tweaks them outrageously. When the crowd chants, "Four more years!" he says why not twelve more?

Idiots take that seriously.

That's not all accurate. His exact tweet was this.

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"With Universal Mail-In Voting (not Absentee Voting, which is good), 2020 will be the most INACCURATE & FRAUDULENT Election in history. It will be a great embarrassment to the USA," he wrote. "Delay the Election until people can properly, securely and safely vote???"

He's clearly suggesting delaying the election, not a fear that Democrats want to delay it.

As for crowds chanting, it wasn't just a fun little joke during one rally. There was then this at another:

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“What they don’t know is that when we hang it up, in five years...or nine years, or 13 years...or maybe 17 years, or maybe – if I still have the strength - 21 years...”[//quote]

He retweeted this:

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A recent video tweeted by the president also contained graphics reading “Trump 2024”, “Trump 2028”, “Trump 2032”, eventually building to “Trump 9000”, followed by a sign that simply read: “Trump 4EVA”.

And some of this:

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“Let me tell you. In six years – or maybe 10 or maybe 14, right? – in six years, when I’m not here, the New York Times goes out of business very quickly.”

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“The good news is that at the end of 6 years, after America has been made GREAT again and I leave the beautiful White House (do you think the people would demand that I stay longer? KEEP AMERICA GREAT),” he said.

rightleft22

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2020, 01:52:21 PM »
At a recent rally in Oshkosh, WI, Trump warned his followers:

Quote
We have to win the election. We can’t play games. Go out and vote. Do those beautiful absentee ballots, or just make sure your vote gets counted. Make sure because the only way we're going to lose this election is if the election is rigged. ... Remember that. It’s the only way we’re going to lose this election, so we have to be very careful.

"The only way we're going to lose this election is if the election is rigged."  Trump is right now behind in the polls.  If those polls are correct (and there are a lot of people who are trying their best to make them as accurate as they can), then he will legitimately lose come November.  But if he's convinced himself that he can't lose without the election being rigged, he will call upon his supporters to rise up and defend him and the country (in that order ;) ).

So, I'm curious.  Who's with him?  Who here will rise up and risk their liberty, lives and livelihood to defend Donald Trump's presidency if he is declared the loser in the election?  Who will stand by him in his hour of need?  Because he's already told you that the only way he can lose is if the election is rigged.  And then you are his only hope.

So who's with him?

Interesting how the dialog has digressed into poll numbers and associating the question to the "Trump wants to be a dictator for life" diversion.

No one has directly answered the question but that's  not the troubling part here.  The troubling part is the rhetoric itself. The reasoning behind anyone arguing that "If I lose its because you cheated."  No need to proof or facts just if I lose you cheated. 
It is a argument that isn't a argument and undermines the process of playing the game in the first place.
Similar to those people making the lack of proof is proof type of arguments.

No one on this forum would have gotten away with makings such non arguments in the past but here were are defending a President that does just that - Shame

We are undermining ourselves and instead of addressing the real issue of a President actually making a claim that unless he win's the system  we bobble around playing the useful idiots.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 01:54:49 PM by rightleft22 »

msquared

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2020, 02:00:29 PM »
Ok question for Trump supporters?  What results numbers will you accept that Trump lost?  If Biden wins 60% of the popular vote and a landslide in the EC, will you accept it?  A win like that would be one of the largest in recent history, right?

TheDeamon

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2020, 02:09:58 PM »
Ok question for Trump supporters?  What results numbers will you accept that Trump lost?  If Biden wins 60% of the popular vote and a landslide in the EC, will you accept it?  A win like that would be one of the largest in recent history, right?

You're assuming Biden wins the EC. It is entirely possible for Biden to get a 60% PV and still lose the EC.

yossarian22c

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2020, 02:14:40 PM »
Ok question for Trump supporters?  What results numbers will you accept that Trump lost?  If Biden wins 60% of the popular vote and a landslide in the EC, will you accept it?  A win like that would be one of the largest in recent history, right?

You're assuming Biden wins the EC. It is entirely possible for Biden to get a 60% PV and still lose the EC.

Emphasis mine. Can you just answer the question, its an easy one.

rightleft22

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2020, 02:16:25 PM »
The problem with a statement like  "If I lose you cheated" is that it dons't require any proof when a loyal factions of followers accept the statement at face value without question or concern.
That same loyal faction would have a fit if a opponent made the same claim, stacking it as undermining democracy (or the game) which it is, but that they can't see or admit when its their guy making the claim.
 

It is no wonder that something like Qanon is gaining acceptance when our ability to make reasoned argument has been eroded. When a lake of proof is proof all dialog ends.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 02:22:55 PM by rightleft22 »

NobleHunter

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2020, 02:33:58 PM »
You're assuming Biden wins the EC. It is entirely possible for Biden to get a 60% PV and still lose the EC.

Possible but very unlikely.

TheDeamon

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2020, 02:41:04 PM »
Ok question for Trump supporters?  What results numbers will you accept that Trump lost?  If Biden wins 60% of the popular vote and a landslide in the EC, will you accept it?  A win like that would be one of the largest in recent history, right?

You're assuming Biden wins the EC. It is entirely possible for Biden to get a 60% PV and still lose the EC.

Emphasis mine. Can you just answer the question, its an easy one.

Assuming everything works as they're supposed to, it will mostly be a /shrug event for me come November regardless of who wins.

But I'm expecting things are going to run off the rails very quickly, and not because of anything Trump did or did not do.

The vote itself is potentially going to be contested in a dozen states and who is contesting the outcome will vary depending on the state in question and where the results are leaning at the time.

If things are "on the rails" the "set aside" ballot count will not exceed the margin of victory.

But I expect the "set asides" to be multiples of the victory margin in more than a few states because of the push for mail-in voting. Which means they're going to be litigating the living daylights out of it... And it's hard to call which direction that skew is likely to be in.

You should also note: I'm saying I expect the Democrats to be litigating things as well. It won't just be Trump. They've been signaling this for months as it is.

TheDeamon

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2020, 02:58:57 PM »
The problem with a statement like  "If I lose you cheated" is that it dons't require any proof when a loyal factions of followers accept the statement at face value without question or concern.
That same loyal faction would have a fit if a opponent made the same claim, stacking it as undermining democracy (or the game) which it is, but that they can't see or admit when its their guy making the claim.

The question they also reflects back on the Democrats as well. Even though the polling doesn't reflect the possibility at this time. If Trump wins both the Popular Vote and the EC in November. Are the Democrats going to accept that result?

How about an EC win without the popular vote? Will Democrats accept that result or are they going to start screaming about Trump cheating and rioting in the streets?

rightleft22

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2020, 03:35:14 PM »
The problem with a statement like  "If I lose you cheated" is that it dons't require any proof when a loyal factions of followers accept the statement at face value without question or concern.
That same loyal faction would have a fit if a opponent made the same claim, stacking it as undermining democracy (or the game) which it is, but that they can't see or admit when its their guy making the claim.

The question they also reflects back on the Democrats as well. Even though the polling doesn't reflect the possibility at this time. If Trump wins both the Popular Vote and the EC in November. Are the Democrats going to accept that result?

How about an EC win without the popular vote? Will Democrats accept that result or are they going to start screaming about Trump cheating and rioting in the streets?

Its a question but not the one being asked. Nor does it address the problem of how to respond to such a statement as 'If i lose = you cheated"  A statement that made from anyone would be troubling regardless. So yes in that regards it does apply to democrats especially if it was Biden that made that statement.


DonaldD

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2020, 05:41:06 PM »
If Trump wins the popular vote, he will almost certainly have also won the EC.

Wayward Son

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2020, 05:57:20 PM »
Quote
The question they also reflects back on the Democrats as well. Even though the polling doesn't reflect the possibility at this time. If Trump wins both the Popular Vote and the EC in November. Are the Democrats going to accept that result?

How about an EC win without the popular vote? Will Democrats accept that result or are they going to start screaming about Trump cheating and rioting in the streets?

Considering the last time it happened, Democrats accepted the results.  Sure, there were protests almost immediately, and we've kept Trump and his followers under a microscope.  But Trump is in the White House.

Now, if there was obvious, provable cheating that affected the outcome, all bets are off.  I would expect Republicans to do the same.  But it would have to be a very high level and well-proven before a large segment of Democrats rose up in arms.  An unlucky outcome like in 2016 wouldn't do it, IMHO.

Of course, the Democrats haven't been primed yet with someone saying that the only way we could lose is by a rigged election.  We know better. ;)  I'm just not sure about those Republicans who still believe in Trump and everything that he says. :(

DonaldD

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2020, 06:35:40 PM »
Trying to initiate impeachment proceedings the day after an election result surely *is* 'not respecting the results' of an election. It's literally the last stop prior to open defiance or revolt.
There is so much wrong with this it's hard to know where to start.

Maybe with the end - impeachment is a legal and political process, defined in the constitution.  It is actually the very opposite of a revolution. Also, you cannot support impeachment without also implicitly respecting that Trump is the president.

And please, who was trying to initiate impeachment proceedings?  The DNC leadership?   The minority leader?  To suggest they were trying to initiate impeachment proceeding is to completely misunderstand how Congress functions.  Not to mention, the DNC leadership at the very least pretended to be reluctant to initiate the proceedings when they finally did kick off the impeachment.

Were Democrats upset and were some stating that Trump should be impeached for some of his actions?  Sure.  But my guess is their numbers were far fewer than the number of Republicans supporting birtherism during Obama's presidency.

TheDeamon

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2020, 06:41:55 PM »
Well, one guy evidently isn't tying his horse to Trump.

Richard Spencer of "Unite the Right" and Alt-Right and White Nationalist fame has endorsed Biden.

https://www.newsweek.com/richard-spencer-joe-biden-trump-maga-1527141

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In another tweet, Spencer added: "I will never flip on my fundamental principles. (My principles were never voting for the supposed 'the lesser or two evils' or 'stopping big government.')

And people on here were eyerolling at the comment the guy wasn't conservative.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 06:51:07 PM by TheDeamon »

Wayward Son

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2020, 07:01:41 PM »
As me dear mum used to say, iron sharpens iron.  He united racists and white supremacists under his Alt-Right banner.  People that would never vote for a black man for President, much less a white man who worked for a black President nor a black woman for VP.  Apparently his "principles" were OK with them at the time.  And with shouting, "Heil, Trump."  ::)

So while he may talk about not "voting for the lesser evil," he is either lying or has completely changed his principles from what they were a few years ago.

TheDeamon

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2020, 07:56:53 PM »
So while he may talk about not "voting for the lesser evil," he is either lying or has completely changed his principles from what they were a few years ago.

I disagree, he simply found that Trump, and his base, aren't interested in the things he is interested in.

Now BLM and it's ilk? They're all about the race war, and expanded government structures to go about creating that racially stratified society. What isn't there to love on the part of a racist? Oh, let us also not forget it is the Democrats in California that are working to repeal their equal rights provision in their state constitution with no replacement.

TheDrake

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2020, 08:22:10 PM »
Who knows what motivates that guy, other than screaming racism? What is more notable is that it didn't take Biden's campaign long to respond like this:

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"When Joe Biden says we are in a battle for the soul of our nation against vile forces of hate who have come crawling out from under rocks, you are the epitome of what he means," Andrew Bates, the rapid-response director for the Biden campaign, tweeted. "What you stand for is absolutely repugnant. Your support is 10,000% percent unwelcome here."

He was busy giving Nazi salutes to Trump in 2016. Couldn't find Trump's tweet on the matter, if it exists.

Wayward Son

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2020, 05:54:19 PM »
So while he may talk about not "voting for the lesser evil," he is either lying or has completely changed his principles from what they were a few years ago.

I disagree, he simply found that Trump, and his base, aren't interested in the things he is interested in.

Now BLM and it's ilk? They're all about the race war, and expanded government structures to go about creating that racially stratified society. What isn't there to love on the part of a racist? Oh, let us also not forget it is the Democrats in California that are working to repeal their equal rights provision in their state constitution with no replacement.

What isn't there to love on the part of a racist?  ;D

While racists long for a racially stratified society, they demand that their race is on top.  How is electing the lackey for the first black president supposed to help them?  How is getting someone who support fairness and equal protections for blacks supposed to help them?

Sure, maybe he hopes that Democrats will give all the power to the blacks, blacks will start treating whites like they were treated by whites, and there will be a Helter-Skelter-type race war.  In that case, he's a pin-headed idiot like good old Charlie Manson and his family.  (Does anyone know if Spencer has taken much LSD? ;) )

(BTW, there is a really good documentary on EPIX about Charlie Manson and the Tate-LaBianca murders.  Definitely worth checking out.)

It would be stupid for the racist organizer of the Charlottesville Unite the Right Rally to reject the candidate who thought there were "good people on both sides" to the one who is supporting the most vehement anti-racist organizations in the nation.  ::)  The one who has a black VP.  The one who was the VP to a black president.  The one who's party relies on the black vote.  The one who characterized them as "deplorables."

Any person who embraces racists like Spencer, who also thinks that Biden is the "lesser evil," would have enough cognitive dissonance in his head to shake it apart. :)

(And, BTW, regarding the "equal rights provision" in California, remember it was enacted when California was on a bit of an racist roll, and the result of not taking race into account in rewarding contracts resulted in black and minority businesses going from about 30% of all contracts to about 3%, IIRC.  Does that really sound like black businesses are getting an equal shot at contracts? Are you of the opinion that black businesses are that much worse than whites businesses? ;) )

TheDeamon

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2020, 07:08:27 PM »
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-28/new-study-suggests-polls-are-missing-shy-trump-voters?srnd=businessweek-v2

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A new online study finds that Republicans and independents are twice as likely as Democrats to say they would not give their true opinion in a telephone poll question about their preference for president in the 2020 election. That raises the possibility that polls understate support for President Donald Trump.

Some 11.7% of Republicans and 10.5% independents said they would not give their true opinion, vs. 5.4% of Democrats, according to the study by CloudResearch LLC, a Queens, N.Y.-based company that conducts online market research and data collection for clients. Among the reasons they gave was that “it's dangerous to express an opinion outside of the current liberal viewpoint,” according to Leib Litman, the co-chief executive officer and chief research officer.

...

Political party preference was the only characteristic that correlated consistently with reluctance to share presidential preference, Leib says. There was no correlation with age, race, education, or income. Cloud Research conducted the study two ways and got basically the same result both times, he says: In one, 1,000 respondents were evenly divided among Democrats, Republicans, and independents, and the second asked a different set of 1,000 respondents picked to precisely match the demographics of likely voters, regardless of party.

The question of whether "shy Trump” voters were undercounted in polls before the 2016 election was part of an exhaustive post-mortem published by the American Association for Public Opinion Research. ...

...

Typically, the AAPOR study found, "those who admit changing their minds more or less wash out, breaking about evenly between the Republican candidate and the Democratic candidate. " Not in 2016, though: People who changed their answers when called back after the election had voted for Trump by a 16-percentage-point margin.

Wayward Son

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2020, 10:45:47 AM »
Going back to the original topic of this thread, the Arizona Republican (i.e. Trump) Party makes it clear:

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Arizona Republican Party
@AZGOP

He is. Are you?

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Ali Orange square #StopTheSteal
@ali
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I am willing to give my life for this fight.

yossarian22c

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2020, 10:59:11 AM »
Not that I welcome rhetoric suggesting not respecting the results of an election, but this "Trump wants to be a dictator for life" nonsense makes everyone posting it sound like an idiot,
....
That being said, if we're talking about 'rising up' and refusing to respect the results of an election, I sort of thing the soft version of that has already happened in 2016.
...

Trump has consistently refused to acknowledge the results of the election. Has cried fraud, fraud, fraud, and shown no evidence of it in court. He has called county level election officials to pressure them into not certifying results, he has had state legislative leaders to the white house in order to pressure them to somehow overturn the result of the election in their states. He has replaced all the top political appointees at the DOD and he nominated someone for assistant secretary of defense that has publicly called for Trump to declare martial law and invalidate the results of the election. Trump pardoned Flynn and then Flynn also called for Trump to declare martial law.

I still think the uniformed military isn't going to enable Trump but at this point I don't think you can make a convincing argument that someone saying Trump wants to be leader for life is being an idiot or spreading malicious lies.

Fenring

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2020, 02:39:27 PM »
I still think the uniformed military isn't going to enable Trump but at this point I don't think you can make a convincing argument that someone saying Trump wants to be leader for life is being an idiot or spreading malicious lies.

Because he's struggling like hell to get his second term it proves he wants to be a dictator for life? I'm not sure I follow that line. I could agree that screaming and shouting about losing an election is bad form, and even bad for the country, but trying to squeeze every single last chance to get back into it and be declared winner seems to me practically the opposite of naming yourself dictator for life. What Trump is doing now is begging, pleading, and bargaining for every chance to be seen as the winner. That is not what someone does who already has the power to force the situation and become a dictator. Dictators don't need to say please.

But I do appreciate the throwback to my post from August. It is good to revisit older posts sometimes and see if people have changed their minds. In this instance I haven't changed mine; I see no evidence Trump wants to forcibly take over the American government and be another Putin. I still think that claim is much, much more far-fetched than any claims that there is a conspiracy of voter fraud in Biden's favor. Conspiracies happen all the time, whether or not this one did. Some rich guy declaring himself Caesar in a democratic Republic where his own party largely consists of "freedom or die" people? I don't even think it could happen, no less is happening.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2020, 02:41:58 PM by Fenring »

Wayward Son

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2020, 02:55:50 PM »
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What Trump is doing now is begging, pleading, and bargaining for every chance to be seen as the winner. That is not what someone does who already has the power to force the situation and become a dictator. Dictators don't need to say please.

Lord, I wish it were only Trump begging and pleading.  It would be pathetic, but at least it would be sane.

If you haven't heard lately, he has declared that he has won the election.  That he got more votes.  And only some huge conspiracy between several states (if not all of them), and between Democrats and Republicans has cheated him out of his victory.

Dictators need the support of others to be dictators.  Trump is hoping that his constant declarations of being cheated and having actually won the election will bring that support to him.  True, he's not a dictator, yet.  But he is trying hard to get the support to become one. :(

Grant

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2020, 03:00:49 PM »
I have to generally agree with Fenring on this point.  I don't believe that L'Orange has stepped into the realm where his actions are "dictatorial". 

That being said, who here believes that Trump would, if given the opportunity, make himself a dictator?  I mean, if he was given three wishes by a genie or a magic wand or some other bs.  Or if offered a deal by Mephistopheles, or the US Army, or whatever.  Who here believes he would take it?  Who doesn't? 

I'd also like to better characterize what Trump is doing.  I don't think that "begging, pleading, and bargaining for every chance" encompasses the entire breadth of L'Orange's activity.  Depending on your view of his intelligence/gullibility and/or the facts of the matter, he could be accused of lying and purposely misleading.  He's tried to use whatever power and influence he has to have states change election results or electors.  He's doing more than just begging and pleading and bargaining.  Yes, it's true that a dictator doesn't have to ask.  But Trump isn't exactly just asking or begging. 
And the "freedom or die" people are some of the ones demanding Trump go full dictator and declare martial law (just like Lincoln). 

Your view on this matter would generally be colored by your view of his past actions, for which there seems to be a great deal of difference in opinion. 

Aris Katsaris

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2020, 03:15:31 PM »
But I do appreciate the throwback to my post from August. It is good to revisit older posts sometimes and see if people have changed their minds. In this instance I haven't changed mine; I see no evidence Trump wants to forcibly take over the American government and be another Putin. I still think that claim is much, much more far-fetched than any claims that there is a conspiracy of voter fraud in Biden's favor. Conspiracies happen all the time, whether or not this one did. Some rich guy declaring himself Caesar in a democratic Republic where his own party largely consists of "freedom or die" people? I don't even think it could happen, no less is happening.

I agree that he won't *succeed* in becoming one (that he's not able to), but why do you think that Trump wouldn't want to do to it if he thought he could? What aspect of his character makes such not a thing he'd want to do? He has respect for the law? He has no authoritarian tendencies? He is a good person that wouldn't do such an evil thing?

Earlier in his term he was bragging about how they deserve and are entitled not only to a 2nd but also a 3rd term. That's back when he thought he was actually going to get legitimately reelected for a 2nd term, so he was just laying the foundations for a hypothetical anti-constitutional 3rd term (he'd probably have failed at that one too, yes, but no harm in trying). The moment the polls turned against him, he pulled back from the 3rd term claims, and instead started to be laying the foundation for "if we don't get a 2nd term, it's only because it'll be rigged".

Both cases fit to me with what I'd expect with the character of someone who wants to destroy functional democracy and install himself as president for life.

To put it differently, let's imagine the hypothetical universe that an alternate-dimension evil version of Trump *did* want to become president for life -- what things do you think that alternate evil version would have done differently than what the current one did and is doing?

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Some rich guy declaring himself Caesar in a democratic Republic where his own party largely consists of "freedom or die" people?

https://youtu.be/iTACH1eVIaA
"I have the most loyal people. I could stand in the middle of 5th avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters."

wmLambert

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2020, 03:33:01 PM »
...Trump keeps doing and saying things that indicate that, if (or when) he loses the next election, he will declare it rigged, a fraud, and null and void.  And since he has no legal leg to stand on (even if the election was rigged and declared void, he would still lose his job come January.

That is an absolute lie. Trump said clearly that if the rigged elections can't be mitigated, he will concede - even if he knows he really won. Nixon did that when he was threatened with impeachment. He probably would have not been impeached - but he decided the good of the nation was more important than the pain of the unfair process. Every time Trump speaks, it is about the process never being allowed to continue with such cheating in the future. He has mentioned running again in 2024 if it goes against him, but he always ends on an optimistic note that he believes justice will prevail.

Aris Katsaris

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2020, 03:38:50 PM »
...Trump keeps doing and saying things that indicate that, if (or when) he loses the next election, he will declare it rigged, a fraud, and null and void.  And since he has no legal leg to stand on (even if the election was rigged and declared void, he would still lose his job come January.

That is an absolute lie. Trump said clearly that if the rigged elections can't be mitigated, he will concede - even if he knows he really won.

First of all you're responding to an August 24 comment, not a post-election comment.

Secondly, do you have any citations, links, etc, for the supposed clear statement by Trump that he will concede "if the rigged elections can't be mitigated"? I'd like to hear it myself.

DonaldD

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2020, 04:26:00 PM »
Trump isn't angling to be dictator.  He's collecting money from the terminally stupid.  His court cases are simply loss-leaders, and that's partly why he's hiring idiots to represent him in court - they're cheaper, so he keeps his margins up.

Wayward Son

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2020, 04:28:47 PM »
Quote
Trump said clearly that if the rigged elections can't be mitigated, he will concede - even if he knows he really won.

And we all know how good Trump is at keeping his word.  Like making Mexico pay for the wall (instead of us paying $11 billion for 45 miles of new wall).  Like replacing Obamacare with something better, something "beautiful."  Like bring back coal mining jobs.  Like only hiring the "best people." Like releasing his tax returns.

Trump does whatever he feels (not thinks ;) ) is best for him at the moment, which includes making promises, or breaking them.  You can bank you money on that--but not on his word.  ;D

TheDrake

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2020, 04:37:51 PM »
Trump cheats to win. Just ask most of the people who golf with him or do business with him. He doesn't care about the rules, he doesn't believe in decorum, I believe he would do just about anything to win.

yossarian22c

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2020, 08:45:17 AM »
I still think the uniformed military isn't going to enable Trump but at this point I don't think you can make a convincing argument that someone saying Trump wants to be leader for life is being an idiot or spreading malicious lies.

Because he's struggling like hell to get his second term it proves he wants to be a dictator for life? I'm not sure I follow that line. I could agree that screaming and shouting about losing an election is bad form, and even bad for the country, but trying to squeeze every single last chance to get back into it and be declared winner seems to me practically the opposite of naming yourself dictator for life.

I specifically said he didn't have the support of the military to be successful in appointing himself leader for life. I said his actions are exactly like someone who wants to ignore the democratic will of the people and stay as leader. I laid out the line of what he was doing, its more than fighting like hell for a second term. That would be pursuing recounts and legal challenges while acknowledging reality. Saying you won the election, that there was massive fraud with no evidence is a dictator move. Firing all the top political appointees at the DOD and trying to replace at least one with someone who has publicly called for martial law to overturn the election is the move of someone who wants to be a dictator. It doesn't mean he has the power to make it happen, it means he's doing everything in his power to make it happen.


yossarian22c

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2020, 09:24:28 AM »
Trump isn't angling to be dictator.  He's collecting money from the terminally stupid.  His court cases are simply loss-leaders, and that's partly why he's hiring idiots to represent him in court - they're cheaper, so he keeps his margins up.

I think he views it as a win-win. He either pulls off something constitution breaking to maintain power but in the meantime he can use his manufactured scandal to raise enough money to prevent another bankruptcy in a few years.

Fenring

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2020, 11:06:08 AM »
Quote
What Trump is doing now is begging, pleading, and bargaining for every chance to be seen as the winner. That is not what someone does who already has the power to force the situation and become a dictator. Dictators don't need to say please.
If you haven't heard lately, he has declared that he has won the election.  That he got more votes.  And only some huge conspiracy between several states (if not all of them), and between Democrats and Republicans has cheated him out of his victory.

Ok, but the difference between a dictator and a deluded loser is that a dictator already knows he's won before he's announced it. He knows it because no one has a choice. If you have a guy who can say "I won!" and nothing happens after he says it, he's not a dictator, just a goof. If some people then go on to do stupid things (like harassing individuals while armed) then he's a goof who is setting a very bad example for idiots.

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Dictators need the support of others to be dictators.

Um, isn't this a truism? Like, literally anyone needs the support of others to be in charge of anything, even bagging at the grocery store. 

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True, he's not a dictator, yet.  But he is trying hard to get the support to become one. :(

Unless he is having private meetings with military generals to get them to seize Capital Hill and the Pentagon, then no he isn't. He is trying hard to get the support to become President. Do you think that if he was declared President now, if his efforts were successful, that he would then immediately be able to command anyone to do anything and be able to execute them if they refuse? If not, then he would not be a dictator, just a President who got there as a result of complaining.

I specifically said he didn't have the support of the military to be successful in appointing himself leader for life.

Let me deconstruct this for a moment. The way this is phrased one might think he is actively trying to persuade the military to seize power on his behalf and permanently install himself as chieftain. Has he done that? If not, saying that he doesn't have the support of the military to be a dictator is not much more informative than saying Bernie doesn't either (since he also wanted to be President). If he hasn't solicited military support then it is at best misleading to suggest that he has failed to acquire that support.

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I said his actions are exactly like someone who wants to ignore the democratic will of the people and stay as leader.

Frankly he probably thinks he is following the will of the people, and really thinks more people want him as President than Biden. That's not that important a thing to note, but I have never seen evidence to suggest that he ever intended to subvert the will of the people. The fact that (like it or not) he followed through on his campaign promises seems to refute the notion that he doesn't care what the people think.

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Firing all the top political appointees at the DOD and trying to replace at least one with someone who has publicly called for martial law to overturn the election is the move of someone who wants to be a dictator. It doesn't mean he has the power to make it happen, it means he's doing everything in his power to make it happen.

This, I can't speak to, because I really have no clue why he fires or hires people. Assuming the worst at all times has become standard, but that doesn't make it a fact. If he hires someone who has called for martial law, how does that imply that he hired that person for that express purpose?

yossarian22c

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2020, 11:19:18 AM »
Unless he is having private meetings with military generals to get them to seize Capital Hill and the Pentagon, then no he isn't.
...
Quote
Firing all the top political appointees at the DOD and trying to replace at least one with someone who has publicly called for martial law to overturn the election is the move of someone who wants to be a dictator. It doesn't mean he has the power to make it happen, it means he's doing everything in his power to make it happen.

This, I can't speak to, because I really have no clue why he fires or hires people. Assuming the worst at all times has become standard, but that doesn't make it a fact. If he hires someone who has called for martial law, how does that imply that he hired that person for that express purpose?

He's trying to put people in place who have already called for this policy.

He fired and is trying to hire during his lame duck period. Shouldn't someone calling for marshal law and the suspension of the constitution be disqualifying for a top level DOD job?

Is there anything you won't give him the benefit of the doubt on? He's literally trying to put people in place who would be meeting with and in a position of authority over (for the next 5 weeks anyway) the very generals you said you would be concerned if Trump were trying to influence to do the very thing Scott O'Grady and Michael Flynn have called for. There are real people close to Trump and being appointed by Trump that are pursuing the shred the constitution policy. The fact that Trump will fail doesn't make it any less wrong or make it any less his intention or desire.

Wayward Son

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2020, 11:55:53 AM »
Quote
This, I can't speak to, because I really have no clue why he fires or hires people. Assuming the worst at all times has become standard, but that doesn't make it a fact. If he hires someone who has called for martial law, how does that imply that he hired that person for that express purpose?

For what other plausible purpose?  With two months of his Administration left, what does he need new people for the DOD positions for?  What does he hope to accomplish in two months with new people that the old people couldn't have done, especially when you take into account the time it takes for a new person to learn the ropes?

The only logical explanation is that it is something that the old person would not have done.  Would have refused to do.

So what actions would all these existing DOD people refuse to have done?  It must be something big, because it if were minor, they  wouldn't all be in agreement or they wouldn't have worried about it or Trump wouldn't have bothered replacing them.  So what big thing could Trump hope to accomplished with the DOD in two months that the current people plausibly would not have agreed to?

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Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.” - Sherlock Homes

Fenring

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2020, 12:54:38 PM »
I dunno, maybe it's not logical. Maybe he's making emotional decisions and trying to squeeze the last bit of control he can out of the end of his term, even if to no avail. The thing is, you can't have it both ways. Either Trump is a know-nothing basketcase who never knows what he wants or has any plan, lying and golfing his way through his Presidency, or he's an arch-schemer with devious plans and everything is calculated. Depending on what people don't like in a given day he's one or he's the other, whatever works. I don't see any reason to believe he is orchestrating a master plan to take over the country today, when yesterday he supposedly wasn't doing his job, spent all his time golfing, and didn't even bother reading reports. I think a guy planning to take over would want to know the terrain, not ignore reality. I don't even know which version of Trump-hate is more accurate, if any, but they are not consistent.

LetterRip

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Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2020, 01:16:05 PM »
Wayward,

One reason I've seen suggested is destruction of evidence that might be held by the intelligence agencies and military.

Another is ordering of a military attack such as against Iran, or using nuclear weapons.  Both are orders that would likely be refused by career officers.