Author Topic: Town halls and debates 2020  (Read 4808 times)

DonaldD

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #50 on: September 30, 2020, 04:03:00 PM »
The thing about Biden is he and his handlers apparently think that admitting any mistakes is weakness.
Setting aside the whole 'handlers' trope, did you really call out Biden's inability to admit mistakes?  Seriously.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #51 on: September 30, 2020, 04:12:09 PM »
I can't say if Trump's performance helped him with the undecideds. To be honest, I'm having trouble getting into the mindset of someone who is still undecided. The issues are so obvious and the differences between the candidates and their agendas so stark and in contrast that it's really hard for me to imagine someone still not being sure of what they want. It's like maybe they just woke up from a coma or something and are just now getting filled in on what's going on. I can't fathom it.

If I had to guess I'd say people who really are still undecided probably are so because the underlying issues don't matter to them so much and that's why they make up their minds based on personalities and impressions so for many of those types of people Trump's sandpaper personality will work against him but I suppose some of them, perhaps a lesser number, might actually like it. Overall a positive for Biden.

On mistakes, I mean name just one that Biden admitted. Trump basically admitted his on the mask issue.

DJQuag

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #52 on: September 30, 2020, 04:23:42 PM »
The undecided voter is what killed Clinton in 16 and I'm thinking you're looking down on them in a similar way.

There really are people out there who can fall for the Repub story of failing upward, and there are people out there who will believe anything the Dems say. What wins elections is getting the people in between to vote.

Not everyone can live off the interest of their first million, Cherry. And for those people, as silly as it is for the rest of us, these debates make a difference.

wmLambert

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #53 on: September 30, 2020, 04:29:09 PM »
...people who really are still undecided probably are so because the underlying issues don't matter to them so much and that's why they make up their minds based on personalities and impressions so for many of those types of people Trump's sandpaper personality will work against him but I suppose some of them, perhaps a lesser number, might actually like it. Overall a positive for Biden.

Perhaps. but have you considered the realization that some can get past disinformation based on current events? That report on Biden is devastating. Unless he can explain why Hunter got $3.5 Million from the wife of the mayor of Moscow, the rest of his statements may lose believability. Also, the report of the Coup by Comey, McCabe. Clapper, Strzok, and the other swamp monsters is getting airtime. Trump did mention it was Biden who suggested using the old never used laws to blindside Flynn. These things are not fake. They will have traction, and Biden is on the wrong side of them. Since the undeserved attacks have been against Trump, then Trump can be given approval for fighting back.

TheDrake

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #54 on: September 30, 2020, 04:30:29 PM »
On mistakes, I mean name just one that Biden admitted. Trump basically admitted his on the mask issue.

Like, ever? Or in the debate?

TheDrake

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2020, 04:32:14 PM »
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"I think masks are OK," Mr. Trump said, when asked why moderator Chris Wallace why he typically appears in public without wearing a mask. He pulled out a mask from his suit jacket to show that he carried it with him.

Doesn't sound much like "admitting a mistake". I don't think Trump is capable of admitting a mistake - and he still isn't requiring them at his rallies.

DJQuag

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2020, 04:34:24 PM »
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"I think masks are OK," Mr. Trump said, when asked why moderator Chris Wallace why he typically appears in public without wearing a mask. He pulled out a mask from his suit jacket to show that he carried it with him.

Doesn't sound much like "admitting a mistake". I don't think Trump is capable of admitting a mistake - and he still isn't requiring them at his rallies.

Go easy on the guy, he at least has a mask ready to go if he feels his adoring public isn't feeling the civil liberties anti-mask fever.

DJQuag

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2020, 04:39:04 PM »
When it comes to crappy politicians giving money to family,  Trump has little and nothing to talk about. The only thing saving him is his control of the Justice Department. He'll get his, whether it's in 2021 or 2025. Of course, he may well be banking on the issue of him being dead before the birds come home to roost. He is a fat seventy something after all.

wmLambert

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2020, 04:40:54 PM »
On mistakes, I mean name just one that Biden admitted. Trump basically admitted his on the mask issue.

Like, ever? Or in the debate?

Have you not really seen what is in front of your eyes? Trump often changes his mind and explains the reasons why. Trying to take the High Road often leads to switchbacks and wrongly hung signposts. On the contrary, have you ever heard Biden say he shouldn't have taken the path he trod? Having Robert KKK Byrd as a mentor, or allowing Hunter on those dozens of international trips to hit up foreign business for baksheesh? Or for plagiarism, over and over again?

wmLambert

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2020, 04:44:10 PM »
When it comes to crappy politicians giving money to family,  Trump has little and nothing to talk about. The only thing saving him is his control of the Justice Department. He'll get his, whether it's in 2021 or 2025. Of course, he may well be banking on the issue of him being dead before the birds come home to roost. He is a fat seventy something after all.

Poor post. Trump has always been considered a good businessman, and his kids learned how to work and earn their way, rather than be carried, like Chelsea, or Hunter. Trump has everything to talk about. Just compare his successful children to them.

DJQuag

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #60 on: September 30, 2020, 04:48:41 PM »
When it comes to crappy politicians giving money to family,  Trump has little and nothing to talk about. The only thing saving him is his control of the Justice Department. He'll get his, whether it's in 2021 or 2025. Of course, he may well be banking on the issue of him being dead before the birds come home to roost. He is a fat seventy something after all.

Poor post. Trump has always been considered a good businessman, and his kids learned how to work and earn their way, rather than be carried, like Chelsea, or Hunter. Trump has everything to talk about. Just compare his successful children to them.

BS. Whether you like or believe them, there are endless stories of Trump crapping on the little guy and refusing payment. Story after story. At some point we should probably give credence to Little Red Riding Hood even if the man she is accusing is rich.

Trump got handed a bunch of money and it's pretty easy to make money when you have money. It's also easy to make people believe you're good at making money when you're unwilling to publish your tax statements to prove it.

DonaldD

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #61 on: September 30, 2020, 04:55:18 PM »
You know how Trump would be wealthier than he is today?  If he had simply taken the money his father had given him and put it into GICs.

If he invested in index funds, even better.

That's a pretty bad businessman.

DJQuag

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #62 on: September 30, 2020, 05:07:27 PM »
I'm not gonna be that guy and put someone against the wall for taking the easy way. Trump tried to make money and in some ways he was successful. His name became a brand. I mean, you look at the steaks and the university, a normal person starts asking questions.

But he went out there and did his thing. Good for him. What I find hilarious is his refusal to publish the taxes. That's the real story. He can blame tax loopholes or whatever but he's hiding it because those loopholes are the only reason he's personally solvent. His base revolves around him clearing out the swamp but the swamp is what has kept his head above water.

DonaldD

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #63 on: September 30, 2020, 05:08:06 PM »
Quote
Wallace: Will you urge your supporters to stay calm during this extended period, not to engage in any civil unrest? And will you pledge tonight that you will not declare victory until the election has been independently certified? President Trump, you go first.

Trump: I'm urging my supporters to go into the polls and watch very carefully. Because that's what has to happen. I am urging them to do it. As you know, today, there was a big problem. In Philadelphia they went in to watch. They were called poll watchers -- a very safe, very nice thing. They were thrown out. They weren't allowed to watch. You know why? Because bad things happen in Philadelphia, bad things. And I -- I am urging -- I am urging my people. I hope it's going to be a fair election. If it's a fair election...

Wallace: You're urging them what?

Trump: ... I am 100% on board. But if I see tens of thousands of ballots being manipulated, I can't go along with that. And I'll tell you what. From a common-sense...

Wallace: What does that mean, you can't go along? Does that mean you're going to tell your people to take to the streets?

Trump: I'll tell you what it means. It means you have a fraudulent election. You're sending out 80 million ballots.

I know, I know, he has encouraged his "army" to go to polling places and intimidate voters on a number of occasions now, so not a huge surprise, although this time he had a larger audience than usual.  But he also couldn't say he would "urge [his] supporters to stay calm" nor even "not to engage in any civil unrest". He just couldn't do it.

The part about the 80 million ballots being sent out though - he never does make clear how sending out armies of polling place intimidation teams will have any effect on votes that were previously mailed in, or dropped off early.

rightleft22

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #64 on: September 30, 2020, 05:08:24 PM »
When it comes to crappy politicians giving money to family,  Trump has little and nothing to talk about. The only thing saving him is his control of the Justice Department. He'll get his, whether it's in 2021 or 2025. Of course, he may well be banking on the issue of him being dead before the birds come home to roost. He is a fat seventy something after all.

Poor post. Trump has always been considered a good businessman, and his kids learned how to work and earn their way, rather than be carried, like Chelsea, or Hunter. Trump has everything to talk about. Just compare his successful children to them.

That's not true. Trump has always been seen as a good promoter of his brand which is not the same as being considered a good businessman. At least not in my opinion and the number of business failures, reported business losses and with the upcoming 300 million due supports that assessment. But go ahead invest your savings with him.

I don't think you want to compare Trump and Biden's Children. 

Wayward Son

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #65 on: September 30, 2020, 05:11:35 PM »
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Or for plagiarism, over and over again?

Who is Biden plagiarizing?  I certainly hope you don't mean himself, by recycling speeches.  Because as any writer can tell you, you can't plagiarize yourself. :)

Name names, please.

DonaldD

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #66 on: September 30, 2020, 05:11:40 PM »
I'm not gonna be that guy and put someone against the wall for taking the easy way. Trump tried to make money and in some ways he was successful. His name became a brand. I mean, you look at the steaks and the university, a normal person starts asking questions.

But he went out there and did his thing.
Sure, but the claim was very specific: "Trump has always been considered a good businessman".  Yes, kudos on him (I guess) for having ambition.  For becoming famous, a television celebrity.  But he is objectively a terrible business man.

DJQuag

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #67 on: September 30, 2020, 05:22:22 PM »
I'm not gonna be that guy and put someone against the wall for taking the easy way. Trump tried to make money and in some ways he was successful. His name became a brand. I mean, you look at the steaks and the university, a normal person starts asking questions.

But he went out there and did his thing.
Sure, but the claim was very specific: "Trump has always been considered a good businessman".  Yes, kudos on him (I guess) for having ambition.  For becoming famous, a television celebrity.  But he is objectively a terrible business man.

Not disagreeing with anything here. What I was trying to say is society is crap and he walked on in and proved just how big a crap he could take and get away with it. End of the day, that Trump got a sniff of power is an indictment of the system.

wmLambert

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #68 on: September 30, 2020, 05:33:21 PM »
...Whether you like or believe them, there are endless stories of Trump crapping on the little guy and refusing payment. Story after story. At some point we should probably give credence to Little Red Riding Hood even if the man she is accusing is rich.

Those endless stories? They began after Hillary lost. I responded to each one as they came out, and each complaint was vacuous. Being in Vegas, in construction, while Trump was building there, I saw what was going on. The Dems were using unscrupulous subs who tried to screw the process and perform Change Orders without authorization for things they screwed up. It's an old subs con game... they do shoddy work or underperform because they offered a low bid to win a place in the project, thinking they could beef up their payment with unsolicited Change Orders. Trump, like any good builder would hold the subs to their contract and request they do what they signed on to do. The subs would then realize their little scam wouldn't work, so they'd tell his workers they had to repair their own damage in order to get paid, and blame it on the CM. For instance a Electrical sub would come in after demolition to a thousan Casino hotel rooms with the charge to safe all the electrical connections before remediation began. But they would take light bulbs out of the sockets and toss them on the floor=, breaking them. But demolition was already done and all debris had been completed. Either the Electrical sub should have timed the work before demolition, or made sure light bulbs weren't thrown onto clean cement floors. Now the workers were told it wasn't the Sub's fault, it was the mean old Trump that shorted their paychecks. I responded to many of these angry workers who should have immediately moved to other competitors rather than stay with scammers. I saw it, and I confirm what the truth is.

DJQuag

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #69 on: September 30, 2020, 05:40:05 PM »
...Whether you like or believe them, there are endless stories of Trump crapping on the little guy and refusing payment. Story after story. At some point we should probably give credence to Little Red Riding Hood even if the man she is accusing is rich.

Those endless stories? They began after Hillary lost. I responded to each one as they came out, and each complaint was vacuous. Being in Vegas, in construction, while Trump was building there, I saw what was going on. The Dems were using unscrupulous subs who tried to screw the process and perform Change Orders without authorization for things they screwed up. It's an old subs con game... they do shoddy work or underperform because they offered a low bid to win a place in the project, thinking they could beef up their payment with unsolicited Change Orders. Trump, like any good builder would hold the subs to their contract and request they do what they signed on to do. The subs would then realize their little scam wouldn't work, so they'd tell his workers they had to repair their own damage in order to get paid, and blame it on the CM. For instance a Electrical sub would come in after demolition to a thousan Casino hotel rooms with the charge to safe all the electrical connections before remediation began. But they would take light bulbs out of the sockets and toss them on the floor=, breaking them. But demolition was already done and all debris had been completed. Either the Electrical sub should have timed the work before demolition, or made sure light bulbs weren't thrown onto clean cement floors. Now the workers were told it wasn't the Sub's fault, it was the mean old Trump that shorted their paychecks. I responded to many of these angry workers who should have immediately moved to other competitors rather than stay with scammers. I saw it, and I confirm what the truth is.

No dawg wasn't our man he's the shut. It's the evil Dems. Something something Soros. Don't mention Judaism. We can win with that in a select portion of the population but overall blaming the Jews via Soros makes us look bad. Don't do it. Hint it though.

DonaldD

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #70 on: September 30, 2020, 05:47:29 PM »
Those endless stories? They began after Hillary lost. I responded to each one as they came out...
So, you responded to this one, published on June 6, 2016: WSJ: Donald Trump’s Business Plan Left a Trail of Unpaid Bills.  By June 6, 2016, what, specifically, had Clinton lost?

How about this one, from June 9, 2016? USA Today: Hundreds allege Donald Trump doesn’t pay his bills.  Again, same question - did June 9, 2016 magically become "after Hillary lost", too?

Then there's Fortune Magazine in September 2016 on Why U.S. Law Makes It Easy for Donald Trump To Stiff Contractors.

Are you going to somehow Trump up a response that rationalizes how these were not published "after Hillary lost"?

TheDrake

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #71 on: September 30, 2020, 07:08:53 PM »
I give you the orange god version of good business. Break ordinances, if someone has the temerity to call you out on it, attempt to destroy them. If it looks like you're going to lose, pay the exhausted opponent just enough to make them go away.


In 2006, the Town of Palm Beach began fining Trump $250 per day for ordinance violations related to his erection of an 80-foot-tall (24 m) flagpole flying a 15 by 25 feet (4.6 by 7.6 m) American flag on his property. Trump sued the town for $25 million, saying that they abridged his free speech, also disputing an ordinance that local businesses be "town-serving". The two parties settled as part of a court-ordered mediation, in which Trump was required to donate $100,000 to veterans' charities. At the same time, the town ordinance was modified allowing Trump to enroll out-of-town members in his Mar-a-Lago social club.[75]

wmLambert

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #72 on: September 30, 2020, 11:55:34 PM »
...Trump has always been seen as a good promoter of his brand which is not the same as being considered a good businessman. At least not in my opinion and the number of business failures, reported business losses and with the upcoming 300 million due supports that assessment. But go ahead invest your savings with him.

I don't think you want to compare Trump and Biden's Children.

Yes, Trump has always been seen as not only a good and successful businessman, but a highly moral one. The stories to the opposite are similar to how Hillary started the Russia collusion lies against him to offset her exposure for her eMail felonies.

There is no comparison between Trump's successful and well-raised kids as opposed to either Hillary's or Biden's spoiled kids.

wmLambert

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2020, 12:44:33 AM »
Those endless stories? They began after Hillary lost. I responded to each one as they came out...
So, you responded to this one, published on June 6, 2016: WSJ: Donald Trump’s Business Plan Left a Trail of Unpaid Bills.  By June 6, 2016, what, specifically, had Clinton lost?

How about this one, from June 9, 2016? USA Today: Hundreds allege Donald Trump doesn’t pay his bills.  Again, same question - did June 9, 2016 magically become "after Hillary lost", too?

Then there's Fortune Magazine in September 2016 on Why U.S. Law Makes It Easy for Donald Trump To Stiff Contractors.

Are you going to somehow Trump up a response that rationalizes how these were not published "after Hillary lost"?

Construction law is one of the most honorable segments of jurisprudence, Any sub who is not paid for his contracted work gets paid or gets judgements. You can't ignore legal bills. Trump cannot have a business plan that refuses to pay on contracted work. When a sub scams work to pad their bills the Construction law magistrate will straighten it out.

I guess June is before November, 2016, but it is after Hillary thought she was going to run and win, and wanted to destroy any opposition.

Why is one of these about a zoning negotiation, and calling it "stiffing contractors?"

rightleft22

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2020, 09:16:13 AM »
...Trump has always been seen as a good promoter of his brand which is not the same as being considered a good businessman. At least not in my opinion and the number of business failures, reported business losses and with the upcoming 300 million due supports that assessment. But go ahead invest your savings with him.

I don't think you want to compare Trump and Biden's Children.

Yes, Trump has always been seen as not only a good and successful businessman, but a highly moral one. The stories to the opposite are similar to how Hillary started the Russia collusion lies against him to offset her exposure for her eMail felonies.

There is no comparison between Trump's successful and well-raised kids as opposed to either Hillary's or Biden's spoiled kids.

You need to get better informed or check your sources. Ask all the people who Trump has shafted in business how moral he is. Trump business practices have always been in question especially after 2008. 
Nice try at a diversion with Hillary.  Nothing Hillary did or didn't do makes Trump a moral or a good businessmen.   

If you define a Snake Oil salesman that is good at selling himself and living off the state a "good" businessman go ahead invest your savings in him. But don't be surprised, like many others before you, you find your self in court.

TheDrake

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #75 on: October 01, 2020, 11:34:34 AM »
Construction law is one of the most honorable segments of jurisprudence, Any sub who is not paid for his contracted work gets paid or gets judgements.

Do you really not know how that works? Sure, after years of litigation they can get paid. In between, the cash flow consequences destroy them.

yossarian22c

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #76 on: October 01, 2020, 01:54:52 PM »
International response to the Trump/Biden debate.
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54354405
Quote
The Guardian described it as a "national humiliation".

"The rest of the world - and future historians - will presumably look at it and weep," the paper wrote, adding that Mr Biden was the only man who looked "remotely presidential" on the stage and saying that if Mr Trump was re-elected in November, "this dark, horrifying, unwatchable fever dream will surely be the first line of America's obituary."


https://www.npr.org/2020/09/30/918756794/debate-organizers-say-they-will-make-format-changes-before-next-debate

Quote
The Commission on Presidential Debates sponsors televised debates for the benefit of the American electorate. Last night's debate made clear that additional structure should be added to the format of the remaining debates to ensure a more orderly discussion of the issues.  The CPD will be carefully considering the changes that it will adopt and will announce those measures shortly.  The Commission is grateful to Chris Wallace for the professionalism and skill he brought to last night's debate and intends to ensure that additional tools to maintain order are in place for the remaining debates.

They aren't specific on the changes. But I think the only thing that shuts Trump up during Biden's turn is literally shutting off his mic. Maybe even having the candidates in different rooms so Trump can't just yell while its Biden's turn to speak. The audience wouldn't hear it but I wouldn't put it past Trump to continue to heckle and interrupt while Biden is speaking even if his mic is off. Such a mess when you have to treat the president like a spoiled toddler.


DJQuag

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #77 on: October 01, 2020, 02:09:20 PM »
What continues to astound me is that this is a 74 year old man we're all watching. And he really does react the same way a four year old would if you took away their toy.

There's no great mystery in explaining how and why Trump does what he does. The answer is simple. He's *spoiled*.

rightleft22

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #78 on: October 01, 2020, 02:49:05 PM »
What continues to astound me is that this is a 74 year old man we're all watching. And he really does react the same way a four year old would if you took away their toy.

There's no great mystery in explaining how and why Trump does what he does. The answer is simple. He's *spoiled*.

Trump has always been really good at creating his reality. Just odd how so many buy into to it as its not a attractive reality unless your Trump.

Trumps reaction to Biden suggesting he wasn't smart was telling. A very Id level reaction. If Biden team noticed it would be a good way of throwing Trump off in the next debate. If done well you might actually see Trump throw one of his tantrum's.

DJQuag

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #79 on: October 01, 2020, 02:57:18 PM »
I'm personally 50/50 on whether there will even be a next debate.

Trump walked out thinking he was the *censored* but even his closest people had to tell him that he didn't come out looking too good. At this point I can absolutely see him deciding to pass off the other two debates and trying to blame Biden in the process.

NobleHunter

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #80 on: October 01, 2020, 03:08:05 PM »
I think they'll cut his mic in the next debate and he'll storm out.

DonaldD

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #81 on: October 01, 2020, 03:25:11 PM »
I see no purpose to having a live audience.  Seriously, they are not allowed to make any sounds during the debate anyway, they might as well just do Zoom meetings, and only unmute one person at a time - however, in a "normal" debate, there are times when the debaters do interact.  The problem, of course, is Trump.  Maybe only mute the offenders after a warning, and maybe put them in a two-minute penalty box

Now for the town hall format...

rightleft22

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #82 on: October 01, 2020, 03:52:24 PM »
I don't think Trump is capable of talking policy. 2016 he had people feeding it to him however I doubt he listens to anyone anymore. Without 'lock her up', and 'build that wall' I don't think he has anything other then bluster. So I don't see a point of any more debates.

Let the vice Presidents do the debating. 

DonaldD

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #83 on: October 02, 2020, 11:14:13 AM »
I won't weigh in on who "won" the debate, but fivethirtyeight is showing an increase of 1.1% in Biden's lead over Trump in the popular vote polling average since just before the election to today - Biden's average is now 8.2% higher than Trump's.

That's the highest Biden's lead has been since just after the conventions in August.

yossarian22c

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #84 on: October 02, 2020, 11:24:31 AM »
I won't weigh in on who "won" the debate, but fivethirtyeight is showing an increase of 1.1% in Biden's lead over Trump in the popular vote polling average since just before the election to today - Biden's average is now 8.2% higher than Trump's.

That's the highest Biden's lead has been since just after the conventions in August.

And now the debate is going to take a back burner in the news cycle to Trump's covid diagnosis. We'll have to see if that changes anything. Seems unlikely to help Trump in anyway but who knows.

DonaldD

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #85 on: October 02, 2020, 11:39:14 AM »
My guess is that the next debate/town hall was going to be Trump's main opportunity to re-connect with those segments of the voting population that he scared away with his first debate performance.

That and if suffers from even minor symptoms, that will really limit his ability to campaign, even virtually, for at least the next week - this may significantly reduce his ability to campaign for half of the remaining days until the election - not a position you want to be in if you need to make up 3-4 percentage points in the polls.

TheDrake

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #86 on: October 02, 2020, 12:26:06 PM »
If Trump is on a zoom call, it's going to be real easy to cut his microphone...

wmLambert

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #87 on: October 02, 2020, 02:27:15 PM »
...You need to get better informed or check your sources. Ask all the people who Trump has shafted in business how moral he is. Trump business practices have always been in question especially after 2008.

You miss the actual facts and believe hit pieces. I have talked with the people who blame Trump for not getting paid. After further investigation, most all of these people were honest workers, taken advantage of by their own bosses. Nine times out of ten, the subs tried to scam the builder by submitting defective Change Orders to cover their own bids. They got all the money they were contracted for, but told their workers it was the builder's fault for not paying them extra.

Let me repeat what I posted in another forum. How subs blame the builder for their own problems:

As an estimator, I would take bids from multiple subs for all the scopes that are needed in a build. My job would be to vet all the bidders and find who has the best record of completion for similar jobs, and who is not overstretched covering other projects. The best sub won't do, if all they have to give us is their third-stringers. A really good sub who has too many projects already in the works, can over-bid to maintain hiring good workers if needed. Some bad subs may under bid to win a contract with an unknowledgeable builder. The onus is in the bid contract. Most of those workers who have complained about not getting paid for all their work, were doing work on spec which the sub had to cover, not the builder. Such issues arise all the time with bad subs, which is what the vetting is for. Sometimes the subs can blackmail a Construction Manager by finding something the builder missed from the contract that is still in their scope. If it wasn't covered, but still has to get done, then legitimate Change Orders are generated that cover the cost of the unscoped work. The project always has funds set aside for that. Staying on top of the needed scope is what makes a good builder - and Trump is one of the best.

Construction Law is simple. If it's in the contract it pertains. If a builder welshes on payment, that builder is in trouble. More often than not, it is not the builder who screwed the pooch.

wmLambert

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #88 on: October 02, 2020, 02:33:36 PM »
My guess is that the next debate/town hall was going to be Trump's main opportunity to re-connect with those segments of the voting population that he scared away with his first debate performance...

There was no scaring away. Since Biden interrupted first, and then failed to go effectively nose-to-nose, which was his plan, that whole drama is laid at his feet, not Trump's. The perception of being too hot is another matter. Once you recognized that Biden had no push-back, you can feel pity for him, but not award him leadership accolades for starting a fight, losing it, then whining about it.

TheDrake

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #89 on: October 02, 2020, 03:03:11 PM »
Quote
Trump, who once bragged that he was the “King of Debt,” owed $70 million to 253 contractors who worked on the Taj and who, in turn, hired thousands of workers.

Some firms sculpted the cement on the Taj’s domes and minarets. Others installed the casino's windows and chandeliers. Still others laid the pipes and concrete pavers.

When contractors complained about delays in pay, Trump said he needed to complete audits to make sure they weren’t overcharging. Years later, when he ran for president and was asked about his failure to pay, Trump suggested that he needed to carefully check the bills because he feared that some contractors were cheating him.

Yup, all 253 contractors must have been trying to cheat him, despite having good reputations and relationships with other builders.

Quote
With Trump delaying payments, contractors reached into their pockets to pay their workers and suppliers. In desperation, some contractors eagerly accepted a new offer from Trump: If they would agree to less than they billed, he would pay the lower amounts immediately.

By 1991, when the Taj collapsed into bankruptcy, Trump offered those contractors only 33 cents in cash for each dollar he owed. He promised another 50 cents on the dollar later. But many contractors say it took years to get anything.

And they were the lucky ones.

nice job, Trump

msquared

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #90 on: October 02, 2020, 03:15:01 PM »
From that piece.

When contractors complained about delays in pay, Trump said he needed to complete audits to make sure they weren’t overcharging. Years later, when he ran for president and was asked about his failure to pay, Trump suggested that he needed to carefully check the bills because he feared that some contractors were cheating him.

Transference?  I mean when you cheat people you expect them to cheat you back.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #91 on: October 02, 2020, 03:21:33 PM »
I suppose the debates may sway a lot of voters but the problem is they both have records now and just taking them at their word regarding want they want to do combined with what they've already done it's difficult to see why people don't already have a favorite. The issues are pretty clear and there is a huge difference between the two on all of them. Supreme Court, taxes, government regulation, environment and climate change and pollution, abortion through the Supreme Court nominee if necessarily Trump's personal opinion,  the border and immigration with another 2000 migrants lining up to make a rush for it, Covid-19 where you have your choice between fast, perhaps too fast, openings and on the other hand you have that open border and travel restrictions being racist and xenophobic so kind of between a rock and a hard place, and there's law enforcement, the military, and so on. It could be a smaller list as to what the two sides agree on compared to where they differ. Perhaps people are still weighing the different approaches to the issues themselves or maybe it is just all about personality.

wmLambert

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #92 on: October 02, 2020, 04:19:06 PM »
Quote
Trump, who once bragged that he was the “King of Debt,” owed $70 million to 253 contractors who worked on the Taj and who, in turn, hired thousands of workers.

Some firms sculpted the cement on the Taj’s domes and minarets. Others installed the casino's windows and chandeliers. Still others laid the pipes and concrete pavers.

When contractors complained about delays in pay, Trump said he needed to complete audits to make sure they weren’t overcharging. Years later, when he ran for president and was asked about his failure to pay, Trump suggested that he needed to carefully check the bills because he feared that some contractors were cheating him.

Yup, all 253 contractors must have been trying to cheat him, despite having good reputations and relationships with other builders.

Quote
With Trump delaying payments, contractors reached into their pockets to pay their workers and suppliers. In desperation, some contractors eagerly accepted a new offer from Trump: If they would agree to less than they billed, he would pay the lower amounts immediately.

By 1991, when the Taj collapsed into bankruptcy, Trump offered those contractors only 33 cents in cash for each dollar he owed. He promised another 50 cents on the dollar later. But many contractors say it took years to get anything.

And they were the lucky ones.

nice job, Trump

Wow.Very artfully done.You were able to turn a few subs who were cheating him into all 253 subs who were bring cheated. Did you understand nothing of how the Construction Industry and Contract Law works?

TheDrake

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #93 on: October 02, 2020, 05:24:54 PM »
Quote
Trump, who once bragged that he was the “King of Debt,” owed $70 million to 253 contractors who worked on the Taj and who, in turn, hired thousands of workers.

Some firms sculpted the cement on the Taj’s domes and minarets. Others installed the casino's windows and chandeliers. Still others laid the pipes and concrete pavers.

When contractors complained about delays in pay, Trump said he needed to complete audits to make sure they weren’t overcharging. Years later, when he ran for president and was asked about his failure to pay, Trump suggested that he needed to carefully check the bills because he feared that some contractors were cheating him.

Yup, all 253 contractors must have been trying to cheat him, despite having good reputations and relationships with other builders.

Quote
With Trump delaying payments, contractors reached into their pockets to pay their workers and suppliers. In desperation, some contractors eagerly accepted a new offer from Trump: If they would agree to less than they billed, he would pay the lower amounts immediately.

By 1991, when the Taj collapsed into bankruptcy, Trump offered those contractors only 33 cents in cash for each dollar he owed. He promised another 50 cents on the dollar later. But many contractors say it took years to get anything.

And they were the lucky ones.

nice job, Trump

Wow.Very artfully done.You were able to turn a few subs who were cheating him into all 253 subs who were bring cheated. Did you understand nothing of how the Construction Industry and Contract Law works?

I do. And Trump broke the terms of his contracts with all 253 contractors when he failed to submit his payment to them on time. When he failed to submit payment in full, and forced contractors to receive less than they were owed, he broke the terms of his contracts. Charitably, you could call this "renegotiation" at best. Induce a major cash flow crisis in your suppliers, then get them to accept half a loaf to avoid bankruptcy.

Wayward Son

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #94 on: October 02, 2020, 05:33:42 PM »
My guess is that the next debate/town hall was going to be Trump's main opportunity to re-connect with those segments of the voting population that he scared away with his first debate performance...

There was no scaring away. Since Biden interrupted first, and then failed to go effectively nose-to-nose, which was his plan, that whole drama is laid at his feet, not Trump's. The perception of being too hot is another matter. Once you recognized that Biden had no push-back, you can feel pity for him, but not award him leadership accolades for starting a fight, losing it, then whining about it.

Nice try, but no one buys it.

If Trump was just responding to Biden, why did he interrupt Chris Wallace?  Why couldn't Chris ask him a prepared question? 

When you factor in Trump interrupting Fox News host Chris Wallace, then it's obvious it wasn't Joe he was responding to.  He wanted to bully everyone in sight.

DonaldD

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #95 on: October 02, 2020, 05:48:43 PM »
My guess is that the next debate/town hall was going to be Trump's main opportunity to re-connect with those segments of the voting population that he scared away with his first debate performance...

There was no scaring away. Since Biden interrupted first, and then failed to go effectively nose-to-nose, which was his plan, that whole drama is laid at his feet, not Trump's. The perception of being too hot is another matter. Once you recognized that Biden had no push-back, you can feel pity for him, but not award him leadership accolades for starting a fight, losing it, then whining about it.
As of yesterday, Biden's lead over Trump was extended by 1.1% since the day before the debate, so there's that.  I doubt very much he's convinced many of the women voters who have fled to return.

As for the drama being laid at Biden's feet... I do wonder how your brain processes information sometimes - about the filters your brain puts in place to protect itself; according to a Fox News analysis, Trump interrupted either Biden or Wallace a total of 145 times in the 90 minutes, or an average of 1.6 times per minute (I'm waiting for you to claim Biden interrupted more often than that, or maybe that Trump was so triggered by that initial interruption he became incapable of controlling himself for the remaining 88 minutes of the debate...)

wmLambert

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #96 on: October 02, 2020, 08:28:49 PM »
It has been two days now, and I've heard no one in the MSM minus Fox News or NewsMax comment of Biden's lie about Hunter receiving $3.5 Million from the wife of the former mayor of Moscow. That official government report confirmed it, but Biden said it was debunked. If the moderators of debates, and MSM won't focus, now that Trump is in Walter Reed, who will hold Biden's feet to the fire?

Wayward Son

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #97 on: October 04, 2020, 01:55:34 AM »
It has been two days now, and I've heard no one in the MSM minus Fox News or NewsMax comment of Biden's lie about Hunter receiving $3.5 Million from the wife of the former mayor of Moscow. That official government report confirmed it, but Biden said it was debunked. If the moderators of debates, and MSM won't focus, now that Trump is in Walter Reed, who will hold Biden's feet to the fire?

Apparently you. :)

And USA Today, which reported on Oct. 1:

Quote
According to a footnote in the Senate report, the source of the allegation of the Moscow transaction is "Confidential Document 6," which it says is on file with the committees. It does not elaborate.

The allegation does not provide any additional detail, including whether the alleged transaction was legal. ...

[T]he [Democratic] response said. "The information in the documents cited by the Republicans has not been verified, and we are not aware of any other Congressional committee ever releasing this sort of information in this manner.

"Any credible investigation would have sought the underlying financial records at issue and spoken to the involved parties," they continued. "At Chairman Johnson’s request, HSGAC authorized 46 subpoenas across four business meetings related to his current investigations, none of which sought information that could substantiate or verify the information in these documents."

Regarding the specific Moscow allegation, Alison Green, spokesperson for the minority on the Homeland Security Committee, and Keith Chu, spokesperson for the minority on the Finance Committee, issued a joint statement that said, "Democratic staff has reviewed all known information on file with the Committees, however, including the confidential document cited by the Republicans, and are aware of no information in the Committees’ possession showing Hunter Biden had any financial interest in this entity or transaction."

USA TODAY asked a spokesperson for the Republican majority for a comment but did not get an immediate response.

Hunter Biden's lawyer, George Mesires, told CNN that his client was not an owner of the firm, Rosemont Seneca Thornton.

“Hunter Biden had no interest in and was not a ‘co-founder’ of Rosemont Seneca Thornton, so the claim that he was paid $3.5 million is false,” Mesires told CNN.

And perhaps Newsweek, which wrote on Sept. 23:

Quote
The report does not allege that there was anything illegal about these transactions. However, the document demonstrates that Hunter Biden had a series of financial entanglements with foreign officials and business people associated with adversarial governments. Notably, President Donald Trump and his company the Trump Organization have widespread business interests around the world, several of which have been connected by reports to alleged money laundering and potentially nefarious activities.

And how about PolitiFact, who reported after the debate:

Quote
We asked Republican Senate staffers if they could show proof that Biden had a stake in Rosemont Seneca Thornton, and they also declined to respond.

The Senate report cites a Oct. 9, 2019, Financial Times story that says Hunter Biden was a co-founder, but the reporters don’t say in the story how they substantiated that — no source is cited. An email query to the Washington-based reporter on the story went unanswered.

Regardless, the Republican report doesn’t fully support Trump’s claim, because it never shows that Biden got the full $3.5 million.

So while I wouldn't say the report is "debunked," the contention of the report is certainly not adequately documented to be proven, and lacks enough support to make it credible.  The silence from those who have in info when asked for proof is significant.

Since this appears to be a piece of FAKE NEWS, I'm surprised you want the MSM to report it.  I thought that was one of your criticisms of the MSM.  ???

DonaldD

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #98 on: October 06, 2020, 12:08:21 PM »
Following the first debate, Biden extended his lead over Trump in the national popular vote polls by about 1%.  Now that we're seeing polls as of yesterday, we are beginning to see polls taken during Trump's hospital stay, and there is another ~0.5% bump for Biden.  I Imagine this will be transitory, but Biden's lead over Trump has now been extended by 1.7% in the national popular vote since the day before the debate.  in 538's average of national polls, Biden's lead currently stands at 8.8%.

I say transient, since the popular vote difference has been very steady in the high-6% / low-7% range for more than a month now, and I would expect the lead to stabilize and revert to around that base value within a week.  At the very least, it is another week where Trump did not narrow the margin.


rightleft22

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Re: Town halls and debates 2020
« Reply #99 on: October 06, 2020, 01:19:04 PM »
Following the first debate, Biden extended his lead over Trump in the national popular vote polls by about 1%.  Now that we're seeing polls as of yesterday, we are beginning to see polls taken during Trump's hospital stay, and there is another ~0.5% bump for Biden.  I Imagine this will be transitory, but Biden's lead over Trump has now been extended by 1.7% in the national popular vote since the day before the debate.  in 538's average of national polls, Biden's lead currently stands at 8.8%.

I say transient, since the popular vote difference has been very steady in the high-6% / low-7% range for more than a month now, and I would expect the lead to stabilize and revert to around that base value within a week.  At the very least, it is another week where Trump did not narrow the margin.

I don't think 8% is going to be enough for Biden to win Win.
Unless Biden wins really big on election day Trump is going to declare himself the winner and their will be very little the DNC can do about it. 
Trump will call shotgun in a game that only he is allowed to call shotgun.