Author Topic: Misleading or false claims by the media  (Read 46507 times)

DonaldD

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #500 on: May 22, 2020, 10:14:38 AM »
Meanwhile, potential VP pick Amy Klobuchar talks about how her husband took HCQ. Credits it for saving his life.
Do you have a link to her saying that?  It seems out of character...

Kasandra

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #501 on: May 22, 2020, 10:36:24 AM »
Meanwhile, potential VP pick Amy Klobuchar talks about how her husband took HCQ. Credits it for saving his life.

Just need that body count a little higher, right?

The only comment I can find from Klobuchar on this is:

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“Well, I think that I listened to the science there. I believe he did briefly take that drug … or some drug like it, but I think that we have to listen to the science and you have to listen to your doctors with what is going to work in each individual situation,”

So, Crunch seems to have taken a lot from that comment (if he heard something more he should share it).  I'd also like to understand what his own comment is supposed to mean.  It sounds nasty and hateful, but it's not clear who it's intended to attack.

Also, Crunch, do you dispute the findings in the Lancet study? 

DonaldD

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #502 on: July 06, 2020, 01:32:49 PM »
Fox News "mistakenly" cropped President Trump out of a photograph featuring accused sex-trafficker Jeffrey Epstein
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New York (CNN)Fox News said on Monday that it "mistakenly" cropped President Trump out of a photograph that featured the accused sex-trafficker Jeffrey Epstein and his alleged accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell.

"On Sunday, July 5, a report on Ghislaine Maxwell during Fox News Channel's 'America's News HQ' mistakenly eliminated President Donald Trump from a photo alongside then Melania Knauss, Jeffrey Epstein and Maxwell," a spokesperson for the network said.
The Fox News spokesperson added, "We regret the error."
It's not clear how Fox was being most misleading, here: by cropping Trump out, or stating it was done "mistakenly"...

Kasandra

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #503 on: July 06, 2020, 01:55:28 PM »
In fairness, it was an honest mistake like all the others.

Fenring

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #504 on: July 06, 2020, 01:59:08 PM »
How clumsy of them!

TheDeamon

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #505 on: July 24, 2020, 06:37:43 PM »
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jul/18/new-document-shows-fbi-totally-debunked-new-york-t/

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One of the most glaringly bogus Trump-Russia stories by The New York Times in 2017 was picked apart inside the FBI at the time as containing over a dozen major inaccuracies, a newly disclosed document shows.

Declassified by the Justice Department, the document contains the Times story that reported there were extensive contacts between the Trump campaign and Russian intelligence. The document also contains a typewritten critique in the margins by FBI Agent Peter Strzok, who totally rejected the Times’ claim.

And in case you've forgotten who Strzok is: (elsewhere in the piece)

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Mr. Strzok, who was fired for his anti-Trump texts, wrote 15 Times story comments, including:

even better(at the end of the article):

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But that’s not the end of the story of the FBI’s skepticism.

According to then-White House chief of staff Reince Priebus, then-FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe approached him and volunteered to the president’s top aide that the just-published New York Times story was bunk.

Mr. Priebus asked if he could say that publicly. Later, the FBI told him he could not. The next thing Mr. Priebus knew, CNN was reporting he some how intervened with the FBI to get it to say something that was false. This never happened, he said. He always wondered if the bureau set him up.

DonaldD

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #506 on: October 07, 2020, 07:09:19 AM »
All news media headlines: Trump calls off stimulus talks, stocks drop 600; Stephen Miller tests positive for COVID-19

Fox News: Clinton e-mails!!! Clinton e-mails!!! Clinton e-mails!!!

yossarian22c

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #507 on: October 07, 2020, 09:10:56 AM »
All news media headlines: Trump calls off stimulus talks, stocks drop 600; Stephen Miller tests positive for COVID-19

Fox News: Clinton e-mails!!! Clinton e-mails!!! Clinton e-mails!!!

I thought you were joking, so I visited fox news and saw it was true.  :(

Guess that is the story Trump's campaign wants to focus on.

rightleft22

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #508 on: October 07, 2020, 09:52:23 AM »
All news media headlines: Trump calls off stimulus talks, stocks drop 600; Stephen Miller tests positive for COVID-19

Fox News: Clinton e-mails!!! Clinton e-mails!!! Clinton e-mails!!!

I thought you were joking, so I visited fox news and saw it was true.  :(

Guess that is the story Trump's campaign wants to focus on.

If it wasn't so obvious attempt of distracting the loyal Trumpketeers who will latch on suck, it would be funny instead of sad.

DonaldD

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #509 on: October 07, 2020, 09:53:45 AM »
Fox isn't even making an effort any more.

wmLambert

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #510 on: October 07, 2020, 10:57:57 AM »
All news media headlines: Trump calls off stimulus talks, stocks drop 600; Stephen Miller tests positive for COVID-19

Fox News: Clinton e-mails!!! Clinton e-mails!!! Clinton e-mails!!!

I thought you were joking, so I visited fox news and saw it was true.  :(

Guess that is the story Trump's campaign wants to focus on.

If it wasn't so obvious attempt of distracting the loyal Trumpketeers who will latch on suck, it would be funny instead of sad.

On the contrary, you are deflecting from the real story. Running scared are you? Trump is declassifying those documents that allowed Hillary to stay out of prison. In so doing, Brennan, Obama, and the rest of those involved in the coup attempt may get perp-walked to the prison bus. This is the real story, and all the denigrating hyperbole you use to cover the coup attempt is much the same as what Hillary did. The object was to make you look anywhere but at her. Too late.

The master showman strikes again, and times it perfectly. The Democrats always have "October Surprises" ready to launch - but they've just been out-thought, out-maneuvered, and outed, in general. there is no place for your criminal leaders to hide. He also put the relief package onto Pelosi's shoulders. There will be no last-minute deal from the Democrats, because she walked away from one too many negotiations. Her snit is now bronzed like a pair of baby shoes. It's hers'. She owns it.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/dni-brennan-notes-cia-memo-clinton

yossarian22c

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #511 on: October 07, 2020, 11:07:48 AM »
He also put the relief package onto Pelosi's shoulders. There will be no last-minute deal from the Democrats, because she walked away from one too many negotiations. Her snit is now bronzed like a pair of baby shoes. It's hers'. She owns it.

The house has passed 2 relief packages. One in May for 3+ trillion and another last week for about 2.6 trillion. Its the senate that hasn't passed any relief package and Trump via twitter that called off negotiations. But sure, its Pelosi's fault there is no relief bill.

rightleft22

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #512 on: October 07, 2020, 01:10:38 PM »
Quote
The master showman strikes again
Says it all, worship your god as you will and never ever look in the mirror.

yossarian22c

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #513 on: October 07, 2020, 01:21:06 PM »
All news media headlines: Trump calls off stimulus talks, stocks drop 600; Stephen Miller tests positive for COVID-19

Fox News: Clinton e-mails!!! Clinton e-mails!!! Clinton e-mails!!!

I thought you were joking, so I visited fox news and saw it was true.  :(

Guess that is the story Trump's campaign wants to focus on.

If it wasn't so obvious attempt of distracting the loyal Trumpketeers who will latch on suck, it would be funny instead of sad.

On the contrary, you are deflecting from the real story. Running scared are you? Trump is declassifying those documents that allowed Hillary to stay out of prison. In so doing, Brennan, Obama, and the rest of those involved in the coup attempt may get perp-walked to the prison bus. This is the real story, and all the denigrating hyperbole you use to cover the coup attempt is much the same as what Hillary did. The object was to make you look anywhere but at her. Too late.

The master showman strikes again, and times it perfectly. The Democrats always have "October Surprises" ready to launch - but they've just been out-thought, out-maneuvered, and outed, in general. there is no place for your criminal leaders to hide.

You've latched on just as the propaganda machine hoped you would. But here's the rub. Trump and his administration has been in possession of these documents for years at this point. If there were actual evidence of crimes then they should have filed charges by this point. Instead they declassified documents redacted in a way to try to benefit Trump politically. So pick an option:

1) There is evidence of crimes and Trump has been sitting on it for years. Trump is declassifying it now instead of prosecuting the crimes for political benefit.
2) There is no evidence of crimes and Trump is releasing these documents for political benefit.



DonaldD

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #514 on: October 07, 2020, 01:30:10 PM »
Hmm, would that make Trump an accessory after the fact, for protecting Clinton for 4 years? Enquiring minds...

Fenring

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #515 on: October 07, 2020, 01:47:16 PM »
Hmm, would that make Trump an accessory after the fact, for protecting Clinton for 4 years? Enquiring minds...

I think you're kind of kidding, but just in case, there's obviously a major difference between protecting a criminal versus delaying the release of information so that it will have the proper effect. When it comes to using information to play politics I'm sure there is plenty of room to call into question someone's ethics in terms of preferring political advantage to justice, but that's not the same thing as it being a crime to do so. I would be quite surprised to learn that there's a legal mandate to report a crime you're aware of on a deadline basis with penalties for failing to do so on time.

That said, I too wonder why if there was incriminating information Trump would wait 3 years to release it. Surely releasing that information quickly would have done wonders to make the 'Russia hoax' go away. Prove Hillary committed crimes, and prove she engineered a smear campaign, and it might have saved him a lot of trouble. So either he couldn't show those things, or else...I dunno what.

DonaldD

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #516 on: October 07, 2020, 02:12:00 PM »
It would be hard to be an accessory to a non-existent crime...

DonaldD

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #517 on: October 07, 2020, 02:17:38 PM »
To be clear, the Trump Justice Department already had access to all this information.  He is just now saying that he is releasing it to the public.  Which is interesting - he is taking upon himself, in this election cycle, the role of Russia/Wikileaks.

Fenring

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #518 on: October 07, 2020, 02:19:38 PM »
Which is interesting - he is taking upon himself, in this election cycle, the role of Russia/Wikileaks.

Is there any reason why a President should not use true information he has access to in order to help his election chances? A smear or propaganda, I would agree would be troubling for a President to do. But do you think there is anything untoward in a President releasing factual documents in the hopes they will aid his election chances?

msquared

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #519 on: October 07, 2020, 02:30:11 PM »
I think it is untoward to sit on it and release it just before an election, with no chance to verify what is in it clearly. Especially if things have been redacted.

Fenring

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #520 on: October 07, 2020, 03:01:06 PM »
I think it is untoward to sit on it and release it just before an election, with no chance to verify what is in it clearly. Especially if things have been redacted.

He claims they will be completely un-redacted. And if 'untoward' is going to be the standard then I would classify almost all of politics under this category. I was responding to the claim that it might be criminal to do so.

DonaldD

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #521 on: October 07, 2020, 03:10:40 PM »
Is there any reason why a President should not use true information he has access to in order to help his election chances? A smear or propaganda, I would agree would be troubling for a President to do. But do you think there is anything untoward in a President releasing factual documents in the hopes they will aid his election chances?
Yes, that is pretty much the definition of corruption, to abuse one's position as the leader of the country for political benefit.  It wasn't illegal to threaten the Ukraine with withholding funds, either.  That is completely within the purview of the president.  If he does so for political benefit..? 

I am disappointed this even needs to be mentioned.

Fenring

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #522 on: October 07, 2020, 03:30:38 PM »
Yes, that is pretty much the definition of corruption, to abuse one's position as the leader of the country for political benefit.

You are assuming the conclusion of your statement as evidence that it's correct. I was asking whether it is in fact corrupt to release true, factual statements that will aid one's Presidential chances. That they required his authority to declassify is the extent of how his office came into it, but that they are (we assume) legitimate documents detailing misdeeds, how do you show that revealing legit crimes can be called corrupt? I mean you could argue all sorts of things, like he was complicit and is hiding his complicity, or he's telling only half the truth. Things like that I would agree are corrupt. But if he's just timing the release of true facts so that it will benefit him the most - isn't that literally how politics works? Not that I like it, but I don't see how that's anything but business as usual.

Wayward Son

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #523 on: October 07, 2020, 03:33:23 PM »
Which is interesting - he is taking upon himself, in this election cycle, the role of Russia/Wikileaks.

Is there any reason why a President should not use true information he has access to in order to help his election chances? A smear or propaganda, I would agree would be troubling for a President to do. But do you think there is anything untoward in a President releasing factual documents in the hopes they will aid his election chances?

I'm starting to realize that a good portion of the country believes that winning an election means you have carte blanche to use your position in any way you deem fit.  You can use information only you have, given for other purposes, to influence an election or make money.  You can use the power you are given to run the government to reward your followers and punish your opponent.  That the information and power given to you to do your job is also given to you enrich yourself and your followers.  And that this is perfectly acceptable, if not expected. :(

This "winner take all and use it to keep in power" attitude is that of dictatorships and other repressive governments.  Because once a faction gains power, they must use it keep power, because losing power means losing money and resources for your faction and possibly never gaining it back.  So keeping in power is the only goal.

And thus democracy dies. :( 

DonaldD

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #524 on: October 07, 2020, 04:03:41 PM »
Yes, that is pretty much the definition of corruption, to abuse one's position as the leader of the country for political benefit.

You are assuming the conclusion of your statement as evidence that it's correct. I was asking whether it is in fact corrupt to release true, factual statements that will aid one's Presidential chances.
You misread.  If one does so for one's own political benefit, then yes, that is a corruption of one's authority. 

Declassifying any information whatsoever might, coincidentally, have the same effect, and that is within the purview of presidential authority.  Doing so in the course of one's job, in order to benefit the country?  That's not a problem.  Doing so purely for one's own benefit is corrupt.  This shouldn't need to be explained to anybody.

Jesus wept.

DonaldD

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #525 on: October 07, 2020, 04:09:12 PM »
This "winner take all and use it to keep in power" attitude is that of dictatorships and other repressive governments.  Because once a faction gains power, they must use it keep power, because losing power means losing money and resources for your faction and possibly never gaining it back.  So keeping in power is the only goal.

QFT

I have seen several people recently think nothing of this position, that winning an election means it is then acceptable to use that authority to game the system in any way that you can get away with in order to guarantee winning the next "election".

wmLambert

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #526 on: October 07, 2020, 06:49:27 PM »
Yes, that is pretty much the definition of corruption, to abuse one's position as the leader of the country for political benefit.

You are assuming the conclusion of your statement as evidence that it's correct. I was asking whether it is in fact corrupt to release true, factual statements that will aid one's Presidential chances.
You misread.  If one does so for one's own political benefit, then yes, that is a corruption of one's authority. 

Declassifying any information whatsoever might, coincidentally, have the same effect, and that is within the purview of presidential authority.  Doing so in the course of one's job, in order to benefit the country?  That's not a problem.  Doing so purely for one's own benefit is corrupt.  This shouldn't need to be explained to anybody.

Jesus wept.

Quite amusing. Larouche stated:
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...Ratcliffe’s declassified information has clearly hit a nerve. Within hours of its release, Facebook was censoring posts about it, stating that it was “disinformation.” Wow.
Do you know where Radcliffe was sending it? To the official investigator who has already stated he has uncovered crimes. John Durham has been investigating this forever, and Trump has officially stayed out of it. Durham has been taking his time, and that has no impact on Trump hiding documents. All your past few posts were way off the mark.

Fenring

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #527 on: October 07, 2020, 10:08:00 PM »
I'm starting to realize that a good portion of the country believes that winning an election means you have carte blanche to use your position in any way you deem fit.  You can use information only you have, given for other purposes, to influence an election or make money.  You can use the power you are given to run the government to reward your followers and punish your opponent.  That the information and power given to you to do your job is also given to you enrich yourself and your followers.  And that this is perfectly acceptable, if not expected. :(

You know why they believe it? Because that's what they're taught by their two political parties. They didn't just come up with the idea of corrupt partisan politics sitting on their EZ chair at home sipping tea. They have been told in so many words that it's all or nothing and the other side has to be stopped. I find it ironic you would take this position given that the entire DNC mantra once Bernie dropped out of the primary was "you have to support us to stop Trump." The argument was literally to put their morals aside (for those who hated Hillary) in order to combine to defeat the enemy. So if you want to talk about using any means to secure power, look no further than your own party. But I would say the same to the other side too, it's just that I've been hearing 4 years nonstop of complaining in one direction so that's been leading discussions.

In terms of using power in office to influence the future of you, your followers, and your party, isn't that literally what both parties do as a matter of course? I don't see why it should be suddenly seen as abhorrent when it's Trump doing it. Maybe he doesn't put that shiny gloss on it; and if that's all it is then I'm glad for the ugly truth to be revealed in a crude way, rather than to truck on with winks and nods while everyone pretends it's a gentlemen's forum. We're talking about halls of power where people kill for money.

Fenring

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #528 on: October 07, 2020, 10:14:41 PM »
Declassifying any information whatsoever might, coincidentally, have the same effect, and that is within the purview of presidential authority.  Doing so in the course of one's job, in order to benefit the country?  That's not a problem.  Doing so purely for one's own benefit is corrupt.  This shouldn't need to be explained to anybody.

I know what you want to be saying here, but as has been pointed out on these forums many times, many politicians actually do think that they are serving the public benefit by serving their own. The fact that their own success is linked to the success of the public is perhaps an unwholesome point of view (I would agree if you believe this), but you cannot just say that their are serving only their own benefit when they themselves don't even think of it that way. Actually I think some of them do; there are likely some percentage of bona fide sociopaths and beasts in positions of power who literally would wipe out nations to line their pockets. But more often I think we'd find the attitude of 'if I only do these things now I'll have the breathing room to finally help the country.' This is a corrupting and black hole of an attitude but it's not the same as cynically knowing you are throwing decency under the bus to just win. I do not subscribe to this kind of mentality, but it would idle to pretend that it's not a thing. I guess it's easy to assume Trump is just a bad guy who cares nothing for anything, but the act alone of releasing information strategically does not alone demonstrate this. It may be consistent with it, but it's also consistent with other mindsets as well.

DonaldD

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #529 on: October 07, 2020, 10:28:52 PM »
In terms of using power in office to influence the future of you, your followers, and your party, isn't that literally what both parties do as a matter of course? I don't see why it should be suddenly seen as abhorrent when it's Trump doing it. Maybe he doesn't put that shiny gloss on it; and if that's all it is then I'm glad for the ugly truth to be revealed in a crude way, rather than to truck on with winks and nods while everyone pretends it's a gentlemen's forum. We're talking about halls of power where people kill for money.
I'm just going to make an observation - since 1965 and until just a few years ago, certain states and jurisdictions, of completely unknown partisanship, were constrained in how they could set their election rules by the Voting Rights act. And since 1982, and until 2018, one particular party was constrained by a consent decree because that party, as well as the other party and the court, all agreed that the party in question could not be trusted to act fairly anywhere near polling places.

I know it's in vogue to pretend in false equivalences, like there are two sides to the climate crisis debate, there are two sides to whether smoking is bad for you, etc, but just because it is fashionable doesn't mean it should get a pass. 

Fenring

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #530 on: October 07, 2020, 10:35:55 PM »
That goes over my head, but I assume you mean that the GOP couldn't be trusted and that the Voting Rights Act was designed to specifically constrain them?

DonaldD

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #531 on: October 07, 2020, 10:59:40 PM »
No, the Voting Rights Act constrained certain states.  Those states for the past 50 years (since the Civil Rights Act) admittedly leaned Republican, and the effects since the 1970s were to constrain Republicans.

However, the consent decree of 1982 absolutely did constrain the Republican Party from, well, cheating.

yossarian22c

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #532 on: October 07, 2020, 11:53:22 PM »
That goes over my head, but I assume you mean that the GOP couldn't be trusted and that the Voting Rights Act was designed to specifically constrain them?

Name 1 republican controlled state, other than Utah, that has made voting easier or more accessible in the last 10 years.

DonaldD

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #533 on: October 07, 2020, 11:57:33 PM »
I know what you want to be saying here, but as has been pointed out on these forums many times, many politicians actually do think that they are serving the public benefit by serving their own.
Yes, but you should be able to understand why they are wrong.  Of course black people should not have the vote because they do not currently support Republican policies, so disenfranchising them in whatever way possible is obviously a correct and moral position to take.

Wayward Son

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #534 on: October 08, 2020, 05:22:30 PM »
Quote
I find it ironic you would take this position given that the entire DNC mantra once Bernie dropped out of the primary was "you have to support us to stop Trump." The argument was literally to put their morals aside (for those who hated Hillary) in order to combine to defeat the enemy. So if you want to talk about using any means to secure power, look no further than your own party.

I'm disappointed, Fenring, that you utterly missed the point.

Government officials are given power to use in governing, not in advancing their particular political party or their families bank accounts.

Party officials are given power to win elections for their party.  In what way would trying to encourage people to vote for your party, even if it meant not voting for their first choice, be a misuse of the power they were given?  ???

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In terms of using power in office to influence the future of you, your followers, and your party, isn't that literally what both parties do as a matter of course? I don't see why it should be suddenly seen as abhorrent when it's Trump doing it.

It's abhorrent when either side, or anyone, does it.  What is even a greater abhorrence is when people start to believe that it is the way it should be. That it is "business as usual," or, even worse, "of course, we want them to do it" for whatever reason.   >:(

When elected officials use their power to govern to enrich themselves and/or their parties/followers, then good governance becomes secondary.  As does fairness, democracy, justice and the rule of law.  When that goes out the window, so does the part of our country that makes it great.  You might as well move to Russia then.  :'(

Fenring

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #535 on: October 09, 2020, 01:01:15 PM »
I'm disappointed, Fenring, that you utterly missed the point.

No, WS, you utterly miss the point. You cannot divide up government this, elected that, officials this, and say that this is localized to how they manage their affairs (for example, corruptly) and then separate out everyday people and their mentalities. These are, in not the same, following from each other closely. Officials, first of all, literally come from the populace with its mentality. Secondly, the people observe what those above do and take note of it; take heart of it in fact. But as it's a revolving door of morality, they will affect each other with constant feedback. The above and the below can drive each other down into the ground, or raise things up. Your idea is that officials have a different standard, or need to be serious about their ethics whereas everyday people - eh, what do you expect of them, really. But it's not that simple. If the people as a whole have adopted as "you need to do what it takes to win!" mentality - whether this follows from or led to the realpolitik thinking of those in government - then it is parallel to politicians who believe that it's truly the greatest good to set aside decency now to get the good guys into power. As long as your side is always seen as the good guys then this ends up being tautological; of course anything we do is good and worth it. And it's not just getting people into office, a the 'do anything it takes' approach has been applied lately to the social sphere as well, where any number of expletives, threats, and other means have been used to win the cultural war on the far-left front. It's quite scary to read the average posts I'm seeing daily on social media, and these aren't even from radical protester types, they're just 'regular people'. So again, these different areas are all linked at least obliquely.

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It's abhorrent when either side, or anyone, does it.  What is even a greater abhorrence is when people start to believe that it is the way it should be. That it is "business as usual," or, even worse, "of course, we want them to do it" for whatever reason.   >:(

Not sure if any of this is directed at my comments, or whether you're joining me in venting about corruption in government. If I had my way the structure of elected positions would be so strict that most people would beg not to occupy them. Do not mistake as assessment of facts with what I want or don't want.

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When elected officials use their power to govern to enrich themselves and/or their parties/followers, then good governance becomes secondary.  As does fairness, democracy, justice and the rule of law.  When that goes out the window, so does the part of our country that makes it great.  You might as well move to Russia then.  :'(

Well, duh. Democracy only works if the people deserve it through their character. Bad behavior and bad motives will cause a democracy to be as corrupt as anything else.

Fenring

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #536 on: October 09, 2020, 01:05:22 PM »
Yes, but you should be able to understand why they are wrong.  Of course black people should not have the vote because they do not currently support Republican policies, so disenfranchising them in whatever way possible is obviously a correct and moral position to take.

I was responding to your comment that when politicians do things only for their own benefit it's wrong. My point is it's probably rarely the case that it's *only* for their benefit. And we've had this particular discussion before regarding Trump in particular. Whether I like or approve of *any* actions politicians take is irrelevant when discussing what their personal motive is for doing it, which is what you are addressing.

Unless you're trying to go down the 'consequences only' road, where if it ends up only benefitting them then that is treated as the motive even though it's an assessment of the result. But by that standard corruption ends up being equivalent to inefficiency, so I'll assume for now you don't mean this and that you mean the actual thinking in the head of the person acting. In which case while I would agree that it happens frequently that powerful people do things only for their own benefit, on a case by case basis it can't be assumed automatically.

DonaldD

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #537 on: October 09, 2020, 01:13:00 PM »
I was responding to your comment that when politicians do things only for their own benefit it's wrong.
That's not what I said. 

What I did say is that using one's political office in order to benefit themselves exclusively is absolutely wrong.

Aside from that, to pretend that doing something for oneself will benefit the country because the self in question is better than the alternative is to argue in circles.

Fenring

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #538 on: October 09, 2020, 02:11:20 PM »
Aside from that, to pretend that doing something for oneself will benefit the country because the self in question is better than the alternative is to argue in circles.

I don't know why you keep arguing these points with me as if you're trying to convince me about what is right and wrong. I am stating what I take to be facts, or at least the best we can do as ascertaining the facts, of the mindset of certain people. Making statements that attempt to describe how people think is only debatable if you believe there is a better way to explain how they think. You telling me what will or won't actually benefit the country is literally off-topic.

rightleft22

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #539 on: October 09, 2020, 02:21:25 PM »
Aside from that, to pretend that doing something for oneself will benefit the country because the self in question is better than the alternative is to argue in circles.

I don't know why you keep arguing these points with me as if you're trying to convince me about what is right and wrong. I am stating what I take to be facts, or at least the best we can do as ascertaining the facts, of the mindset of certain people. Making statements that attempt to describe how people think is only debatable if you believe there is a better way to explain how they think. You telling me what will or won't actually benefit the country is literally off-topic.

Perhaps if the question is reworded.
Is using one's political office in order to benefit oneself (personal benefit) wrong?

Fenring

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #540 on: October 09, 2020, 03:14:35 PM »
Perhaps if the question is reworded.
Is using one's political office in order to benefit oneself (personal benefit) wrong?

You are just as confused about what we're arguing about. We are not discussing whether using a public office for personal gain is good or bad. I think it is plain that it's not good. We are discussing (or we are meant to be discussing) whether it is plausible to in fact state that a person in that position is actually using that office for *purely* personal gain. It is important to note whether the main reason for a particular action is personal gain or not, because many actions taken in politics will both help them personally as well as achieving public goals. This is what was discussed previously regarding Trump, whether we can decisively say "Oh, he only did that for personal profit" or whether we don't have enough information to be able to make that conclusion. My general irritation is people thinking that ascribing bad motives to Trump because he is Trump counts as actual proof of anything. That we may all agree that he doesn't inspire confidence in his motives is one thing, but that does not suddenly give us license to 'know' what he is thinking with a particular act. I would have thought that all of what I just wrote is trivial, but hey...

And I will repeat: if what we're discussing is conflicts of interest in public office, then I seriously do not think you guys are taking nearly seriously enough the extent to which U.S. politics is riddled with gamebreaking conflicts of interest. Fix the system, and then no need to chase after every person abusing it (i.e. most of them).

DonaldD

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #541 on: October 09, 2020, 04:33:43 PM »
We're still talking about Trump using his office to declassify emails from 2016, less than one month before the 2020 election, emails that had not led to any indictments in the past 4 years, right?  And if you are looking for more context, he is also now publicly calling on his AG to arrest his predecessor in office, his previous opponent, and his current opponent again...

Maybe you weren't trying to act as an apologist, but if so, it wasn't obvious.  And if you are really working the equivalency angle, no, there simply haven't been any other presidents who have used their position to attempt to arrest their opponents.

Fenring

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #542 on: October 09, 2020, 05:13:57 PM »
We're still talking about Trump using his office to declassify emails from 2016, less than one month before the 2020 election, emails that had not led to any indictments in the past 4 years, right?  And if you are looking for more context, he is also now publicly calling on his AG to arrest his predecessor in office, his previous opponent, and his current opponent again...

Maybe you weren't trying to act as an apologist, but if so, it wasn't obvious.  And if you are really working the equivalency angle, no, there simply haven't been any other presidents who have used their position to attempt to arrest their opponents.

Well let's put it this way: I am generally happy when documents like this are declassified, and in general prefer more transparency to less. I am happy when Wikileaks releases damning information even though it is likely done through unlawful means sometimes (notwithstanding the fact that unlawfully revealing unlawful behavior makes the whole issue quite muddy to classify morally).

In this case we're talking about an action which in isolation I would tend to celebrate, but which is timed to advantage Trump (we can probably agree on that). That would appear to make the effect of that action a mix of benefit to the country and benefit to Trump, so long as you understand I consider it to be good for the country for such information to be transparent. But the bar you need to set when assessing an action isn't whether it will benefit Trump; an effective politician no doubt tries to marry public good with his own good regularly. The bar is that it really has no discernable benefit to anyone other than Trump.

I think the fact that the documents in question are about Hillary, who you are sure isn't really guilty of anything, is part of why you're quick to see this as merely another attack move and nothing more. And hey, it may well be an attack move. But change the subject and imagine instead it was Biden releasing information about Trump's dealings with Putin at this time; or we can make it more neutral and imagine that some arbitrary President decides to issue a series of pardons close to election time of people who were really wronged by the justice system. The fact that the timing is obviously strategic is one thing, but the worth of the action another. You seem to be quite quickly dismissing any relevance in terms of good effect or intent in the declassification other than Trump trying to steal an election. But whereas you worry that I'm being a partisan here, in fact where I'm coming from is that I basically do want those documents declassified, and I don't care when it happens. In my view, let him have his little win if it gives him one, in order to do something I basically approve of. Heck, let him do all manner of things I approve of near election time, that will suit me fine.

And for clarity, I would be just as equally happy for Biden to be releasing damning information about Bush or some other Presidential predecessor that would tarnish the Republicans. In fact I would be overjoyed for more light to be shed on Bush 43's Presidency, even this far after the fact. Let them do it!

rightleft22

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #543 on: October 09, 2020, 05:46:23 PM »
Quote
Trump; an effective politician no doubt tries to marry public good with his own good regularly

I can't agree with that statement or perhaps I would reorder it. as in Trump very much the politician focus is his on good over the public good regularly.  Trump is a transaction politician whos starting point is whats in it for him.  We can debate if that makes him 'effective'

Hillary emails have been investigated many time and if their were incriminating Trump would be pressing charges not just declassifying them.

Perhaps such transparency is a good thing however the timing is all about benefiting Trump.  That you can look away from such ethical and leadership principles for the your definition of greater good of transparency is fine.

That does make a statement. And as many feel the way you do is it no wonder we get the kind of leadership that we do?

wmLambert

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #544 on: October 09, 2020, 06:48:35 PM »
...Trump is a transaction politician whos starting point is whats in it for him.

Completely untrue. Trump is the penultimate patriot and wants to do what is best for the nation. His business took a hit when he became President, and it may never recover. What he has always focused on are those campaign promises he made and continues to achieve. That strawman you talk about is not real.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #545 on: October 10, 2020, 02:49:50 AM »
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-attacks-moderator-second-debate-170817141.html

"President Donald Trump decried on Friday the planned moderator for the erstwhile second presidential debate over a Thursday night tweet that the moderator claims he did not send.

A post to C-SPAN anchor Steve Scully’s Twitter account on Thursday asked Anthony Scaramucci, the onetime White House communications director for Trump who’s since become an ardent critic of the president, “should I respond to trump” in a since-deleted message. Trump and his allies quickly pointed to the social media message as evidence that Scully is biased against the president."

------------------------------------------------------------

Sure accounts get hacked but doesn't it stretch credulity just a little bit that someone would hack his account and that's the message they'd send?

Also, I'm not sure if anyone here has noticed but the message boards on yahoo have been disabled for some time now. That's clear manipulation by the media because the posts there often pointed out the clear bias and false information and refusal to dig deep on stories or even dig a little bit when the information wasn't conducive to the various narratives the media choose to convey.

wmLambert

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #546 on: October 10, 2020, 09:31:39 PM »
It seems Steve Turley has videoed the best news for Trump, yet. According to Helmut Norpoth, who has a near perfect record of his election algorithm, Trump wins in a landslide of 362 electoral votes to 176.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3b3aNdYnv4

TheDeamon

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #547 on: October 11, 2020, 02:47:38 PM »
The Norpoth prediction is months old at this point and I've previously brought it up.

There are the other indicators which also would tend to strongly indicate Trump despite what the opinion polls currently reflect, but "shy voter" reporting can easily account for what is going on there, given how reluctant people are likely to be about admitting to their electoral support of Trump.

56% of Americans think they're better off now than they were 4 years ago? In the height of a pandemic? And also beating out the numbers of every other prior president in the history of that question being asked? No president who polled above the mid-40's on that number has failed to be re-elected at this time.

Then there are the other "it's the economy" oriented questions which also skew strongly in favor of Trump over Biden which would also strongly suggest Biden should be in serious trouble in the polls. People tend to vote their wallet, and their wallet for most Americans is best protected by voting Trump according to their own responses.

By the same token, I'm perfectly happy to see polling indicating "a Biden blowout" at this point as that just further motivates Trump supporters to turn up and vote and while making other possible Biden voters think they don't need to if they haven't already.

TheDeamon

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #548 on: October 11, 2020, 02:55:56 PM »
Also in light of the recent Gallup poll with that 56% number for "Yes, we're doing better than 4 years ago."

Calls into further question:

Speaking of partisanship, got a laugh out of this:
The (New York Times) YouTube video goes into detail on "the keys" and in the course of it, the good professor admits to being a Democrat and how hard it can be to keep partisanship out.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/08/05/professor-allan-lichtman-predicts-joe-biden-beat-donald-trump/3304680001/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp_Uuz9k7Os

Of his 13 keys, he scored 6 keys in favor of Trump, and 7 in favor of Biden. As such, he's called it for Biden.

But the problem is, in this cycle, things are a bit more ambiguous.

6 keys are clearly indicating Trump. But as for the other 7?
For the ones where Trump was scored as "false":
1) "Midterm gains" - Scored as false, as the Democrats gained seats, not the republicans, so clearly a pro-Biden marker.
2) "Strong Short Term economy" - He scored that as false, because of the economic disruption form Covid.
3) "Strong Long Term economy" - He scored that as false, because of the economic disruption from Covid.
4) "No Social Unrest" - Obviously that does support Biden.
5) "No scandal" - He scored this as false. But the "trump voters" on the other hand may disagree, particularly as it looks like what became the Mueller Investigation is looking to be poised to become ObamaGate in the eyes of most Trump voters, even if the dems disagree. Likewise for most Trump voters, the impeachment was only a scandal in regards to how the Democrats conducted themselves.
6) "Major foreign/Military success" - He scored this as false. "Trump voters" may disagree on that.
7) "Charismatic incumbent" - Scored as false. I'll give him a pass on his rationale, given Trump's difficulty even reaching 50% approval and retaining it. Of course, this could arguably be "split" as he also scored "true" for "uncharismatic opponent" in Trump's favor. A Charismatic candidate is likely to have a better "connection" with their base, and thus better turnout than an opponent who lacks any meaningful charisma...

So of those 7 markers that he said were false, I'll readily agree with 3 of them(1, 4, and 7).
ISIS/ISIL and the renegotiated NAFTA aside, I guess I'll grant #6, but there is an asterisk to attach to that one.
Given the Keystone cops routine the Administration has ongoing, I'll leave #5 as mostly valid.

That gets Biden to 5 keys to Trump's 6. Which puts things entirely in the context of the economy, and the economic circumstances as a result of Covid are just so outside of the norm that I don't think any real definitive predictions can be made. So I'm inclined to split the result, if only because polling in the past has indicated people think Trump would be better able to facilitate a recovery... But the wildcard in the mix is Covid need to reach a point where a recovery can begin to properly start. Something which Trump obviously isn't helping with, but then, nobody seems to have managed to pull off a safe and effective reopening as of yet, including China with their totalitarian controls in place. So it is hard to objectively hold Trump accountable for that. So my own scoring using his criteria ends up as a Trump 7, Biden 6 decision at this time. So it indicates a Trump win, not a Biden one.