Election Results

[msquared]

Except that since they new those ballots might be challenged, they were kept in their own pile and not listed as part of the vote total. So the lead Biden had did not go down with the court case, it just did not go up as much as if they had been allowed.  Again, no fraud. That was not evidence of fraud.

[Aris Katsaris]

It seems like fair play would demand that Democrats at least wait until Dec. 13th before they demand Trump's concession.

2000 was a difference of less than a thousand votes in a single state, where btw Jeb Bush was governor.

Trump now has to overturn probably fifty thousand votes across three or four states.

Strange how you have to go back to 2000. Why not look to 2016, where the electoral outcome was same as now, 306 to 232? Isn't that a fairer comparison?

Somehow Hillary Clinton conceded on the day immediately followjng the election. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/09/us/politics/donald-trump-won-now-what.html
"Hillary Clinton publicly conceded the election to Donald J. Trump on Wednesday, acknowledging the pain of the defeat in remarks in New York while calling on her supporters to accept that he would be president and give him a chance to lead with an open mind."

 "According to the authors of Shattered: Inside Hillary Clinton's Doomed Campaign, by late Tuesday night the White House had concluded that Trump would win the election. Obama's political director David Simas called Clinton campaign manager Robby Mook to persuade Clinton to concede the election, with no success. Obama then called Clinton directly, citing the importance of continuity of government, to ask her to publicly acknowledge that Trump had won"

But you know, that's the difference between responsible adults, and irresponsible manchildren,

Would you be in favor of naturalizing Turks on a massive scale?

The equivalent of Hispanics for America are probably Albanian immigrants for Greece, and yes I'd be overjoyed if many many more of them were allowed to vote.

I also supported the Annan plan for Cyprus, which would have brought together the Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot communities again.

By your comparison between Greece and Turkey, I guess you are implying that Puerto Rico is a great military threat to the United States, with many times the military might of the United States, and thus you are worried about giving it any more leverage over you, because you are worried it'll use such leverage to conquer your land and annex your territories.

[Fenring]

"Hillary Clinton publicly conceded the election to Donald J. Trump on Wednesday, acknowledging the pain of the defeat in remarks in New York while calling on her supporters to accept that he would be president and give him a chance to lead with an open mind."
[...]
"According to the authors of Shattered: Inside Hillary Clinton's Doomed Campaign, by late Tuesday night the White House had concluded that Trump would win the election. Obama's political director David Simas called Clinton campaign manager Robby Mook to persuade Clinton to concede the election, with no success. Obama then called Clinton directly, citing the importance of continuity of government, to ask her to publicly acknowledge that Trump had won"

But you know, that's the difference between responsible adults, and irresponsible manchildren,

I appreciate that one would like to draw comparisons between Trump and others who are more mature. But this is the example you picked of "responsible adults", where Clinton went on to initiate a campaign to undermine Trump's presidency? There is no way in which she had any intention of giving him a chance to lead with an open mind. I'm not disputing whether Trump acts in an immature fashion, but it's just laughable that Clinton's loss and what followed it is an example of anything other than petulant and vindictive entitlement.

[noel c.]

Aris,

“By your comparison between Greece and Turkey, I guess you are implying that Puerto Rico is a great military threat to the United States, with many times the military might of the United States, and thus you are worried about giving it any more leverage over you, because you are worried it'll use such leverage to conquer your land and annex your territories.”

It is a reasonable comparison. Have you ever heard of the term “Reconquista”? It is a Central American recast of the 9th century Christian expulsion of Arabs from the Iberian peninsula. When I was in a California High School, the MECHA club members graffitied “LA RAZA“ on everything that would accept spray paint. It was not a slogan of inclusivity, or assimilation. It was a hopeful chant of annexing the American Southwest. I did not take their aspirations seriously until it became obvious that the California Democratic Party could turn the movement into a cash cow (the “Needy Latino” formula spoken of by John Podesta).

I visited that school about ten years ago. In a middle to upper middle class neighborhood that was 95% Caucasian, it is now 5% Caucasian, 44% Latino, 39% Asian, 20% Black, and 5% Pacific Islander. 78% of the student body are from an “economically disadvantaged” household, as determined by student eligibility for California's Reduced-price meal program. Academic achievement is reflected in the change, as is on campus violence.

The cultural effect upon the school that I remember is not positive.

I really don’t understand what it is between the Greeks, and Turks, but that conflict has lasted for about 100 years. At minimum there must be a cultural disjuncture. America is not designed to accommodate that degree of Balkanization. The Mexicans call the emerging social order “Azatlan”. Look it up.

[cherrypoptart]

> msquared

> Except that since they new those ballots might be challenged, they were kept in their own pile and not listed as part of the vote total. So the lead Biden had did not go down with the court case, it just did not go up as much as if they had been allowed.  Again, no fraud. That was not evidence of fraud.

If votes are counted that are not supposed to be counted or not counted when they are supposed to be counted it really doesn't matter if it's fraud or judges making mistakes. It's certainly a just cause for waiting to let things settle themselves out through the courts and also a good reason to let investigations proceed. They were supposed to quarantine those ballots and hopefully they did but earlier there was cause for concern about them not being separated like they were supposed to be.

[cherrypoptart]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/way-president-trump-win-reelection-124438669.html

These talking heads made some good points. You count every legally cast vote and throw out every illegally cast vote. And it's going to take some time and court cases to sort out which are which.

And why should Trump concede when we don't even have the certified results yet?

I don't honestly think Trump won and I don't think he will win but... stranger things have happened. It makes absolutely no sense to throw in the towel before the final results are known with 100% certainty. Like they say in chess, nobody ever won a game by resigning. We just need to play it all out to the very end and see what happens. If Trump gets checkmated by the courts and then the final certified vote of the Electoral College then "Game over man, game over" but until that happens Trump supporters by and large are very supportive of his willingness to fight; to never say die and never surrender even if as the internet tells us "This maxim today is often used ironically and deprecatingly, for something that has already failed."

Still going through Veep and just finished season 4 and am well into season 5 and (spoiler alert perhaps) the election and recount and closeness of some of the states is really timely for what's happening now. They had the funniest scene in which each side had demonstrators out chanting for stopping the vote or counting the vote depending on how they thought it would be to their advantage or disadvantage but then as the votes were getting counted and the situation of advantageousness swapped places each candidate changed their position on stopping the vote or continuing to count. Also on the night of the election just as one candidate was about to call in and concede things turned around. I see in the news how damaging the delay is to national security and so on but it's funny how the media didn't seem keen on bringing any of that up when Gore failed to concede until well into December.

[DonaldD]

It makes absolutely no sense to throw in the towel before the final results are known with 100% certainty.

There are definitely reasons to do so - and they are why every single modern presidential candidate who ended up losing did publicly concede before all states certified. And remember - a concession speech means nothing legally; the states still need to certify their counts and choose electors, and that will be done irrespective of the contents, or even the performance, of a concession.

Here's a hint: thousands of hyper-partisans marched through the streets of the capital yesterday, wholeheartedly believing that the election was stolen AND that their man was almost certainly the winner, notwithstanding that he was convincingly defeated.  That is just a symptom of the social fractures that the country is currently experiencing, and a public concession by the loser, encouraging his supporters to accept the result, would, as in the past, lead to at least a modicum of healing.

But let's not pretend this is not the strategy, as ill-conceived as it is; "Stop The Steal" has been in the works since 2015.  It was trotted out in both 2016 and in 2018 as well, but it only finally gained traction in 2020 because the Republicans lost sufficiently to trigger their supporters. Trump has been priming his cult, with claims of upcoming fraud even months before any votes were cast, just as he did in 2016. 

The real reason for alleging fraud was NOT in the expectation of proving actual fraud, but rather that the Trump campaign had hopes of turning at least a couple of state legislatures against their voters' decisions, and the widespread belief in fraud by his supporters would give those legislatures political cover - we even saw suggestions to that effect being made this past week (notwithstanding that many people even here on Ornery correctly predicted this gambit well before election day); but now, given the margins in the popular vote and the EC college, it would seem highly unlikely that any relevant state house would risk the wrath of its electorate to do so.

[yossarian22c]

”Here's what I really want you to respond to.
How many fraudulent votes has Trump's team uncovered in 11 days of investigating?”

1,298 investigated, and prosecuted. Cases unprosecuted are absent from the count.

Do you have a source for that? How many were Biden votes vs. Trump votes?

[noel c.]

Donald,

“The real reason for alleging fraud was NOT in the expectation of proving actual fraud, but rather that the Trump campaign had hopes of turning at least a couple of state legislatures against their voters' decisions...“

Since when does paranoid partisan prognostication become a “real reason”?

Trump supporters could easily retort; “... the real reason lefties want a premature concession is that they fear exposure of fraudulent voting.” Trump supporters have already witnessed the uncovering of Obama’s illegal surveillance of the Trump 2016 campaign organization, a Democratic FBI Director’s attempt to tee-up a President-elect for impeachment on his first “courtesy briefing” of the notorious Steel dossier, systemic destruction of FISA protections in a post-election Obama executive order effecting sixteen separate U.S. intelligence agencies, and a fruitless two-year Democratic House impeachment investigation headed by a special counsel who previously sought, and was denied, an FBI Director presidential appointment only hours prior to deputy DOJ Director Rosenstein’s alternate Special Counsel appointment. Senile Robert Muller, as special executor, aided by eighteen “angry“ Democrat prosecutors and lawyers, could not subsequently even follow the contents of his own $35,000,000 report before the House Judiciary, and Intelligence Committees.

No, Biden, as one of those FISA identity “unmasking“ abuse participants, does not merit any special consideration from Trump.

“... and the widespread belief in fraud by his supporters would give those legislatures political cover... “

To the extent any such “cover” exists, it was gifted by Democrats to the Republicans.

“... - we even saw suggestions to that effect being made this past week (notwithstanding that many people even here on Ornery correctly predicted this gambit well before election day)... ”

Yes, Ornery has a national influence that no president should underestimate. 

“ ; but now, given the margins in the popular vote and the EC college, it would seem highly unlikely that any relevant state house would risk the wrath of its electorate to do so.”

Right, “the best laid plans... “

Take a breath, and let the President’s challenges play out under American protocols Canadian. You will have 16% of Alberta’s oil-shale based economy decimated soon enough.

Y-22,

“Do you have a source for that? How many were Biden votes vs. Trump votes?”

https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud

[yossarian22c]

As usual, Ann Coulter nails it. 

https://anncoulter.com/2020/11/11/the-democrats-guide-to-losing-gracefully/

Democrats often have a big problem accepting the results of elections when they lose.

"... Gore contested the election until Dec. 13, the day after the Supreme Court called off the endless recounts (in only certain Florida counties) demanded by Gore."

It seems like fair play would demand that Democrats at least wait until Dec. 13th before they demand Trump's concession.

That seems like a pretty good date to me too. Unless things change significantly and the needle on evidence moves before then, that would be a good time to seriously consider a Trump concession. Until then, history is in Trump's favor, at least as far as Democrats refusing to concede.

Florida was one race that determined the outcome of the presidency decided by less than 1000 votes. Explain how Trump being behind by more than 10,000 votes in multiple states is anything close to equivalent of that.

Also Cherry, think about what it means that you go along with and parrot its okay for Republicans to do "the worst any Democrat has ever done." Because I will be very disappointed if Biden or any Democrat starts behaving like Trump and citing him as an exemplar of what's allowable behavior.

[noel c.]

Y-22,

“Because I will be very disappointed if Biden or any Democrat starts behaving like Trump and citing him as an exemplar of what's allowable behavior.”

 

[DonaldD]

”Here's what I really want you to respond to.
How many fraudulent votes has Trump's team uncovered in 11 days of investigating?”

1,298 investigated, and prosecuted. Cases unprosecuted are absent from the count.

Do you have a source for that? How many were Biden votes vs. Trump votes?

Yoss, that is probably a reference to the Heritage survey that spanned almost 40 years (since 1982, for cases through 2018) - at least the numbers match.  How someone could possibly think that a survey, spanning 36-40 years of elections and last updated months ago, is at all related to the past 11 days is... a mystery.

[cherrypoptart]

I don't think I ever said that Al Gore waiting until his case played out in the courts was a bad thing. All I said was that I don't remember Democrats saying that the way they are saying it for Trump now. The number of votes isn't the only issue. The main issue is getting the count right. Not conceding makes that more likely to happen. If he concedes nobody will care about it anymore. It's good to have some of these cases get settled in court too because they are precedent setting like the ones in Pennsylvania over the late ballots and that will be useful for future elections as well as help state legislatures decide what they want their laws to be so the courts don't try to do it for them.

[yossarian22c]

”Here's what I really want you to respond to.
How many fraudulent votes has Trump's team uncovered in 11 days of investigating?”

1,298 investigated, and prosecuted. Cases unprosecuted are absent from the count.

Y-22,

“Do you have a source for that? How many were Biden votes vs. Trump votes?”

https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud

Only 14 of those cases are from 2020. And none of them involve votes in the 2020 election. Most are ballot petition fraud (offering cash for signatures) and a few involve double voting (multiple states), voting illegally for family members, local races decided by a small number of votes, or voting in the wrong jurisdiction. Nothing systematic or widespread.

How is it you're so bad at conveying accurate data? You had to know that wasn't answering the question asked. Or are you just really, really bad at understanding questions and knowing what data you are looking at?

I'll ask again.
How many fraudulent votes has Trump's team uncovered in 11 days of investigating?

[noel c.]

Y-22,

The database is current through 2020.

[yossarian22c]

Y-22,

The database is current through 2020.

You can see I clearly sited the number of cases from 2020.

So your response is instead answering Trump has identified 0 fraudulent votes in 11 (now 12) days of investigating you decided to spout off the combined number of election fraud, ballot petition fraud, voter registration fraud cases from the last 40 years combined.

Did you think you were giving an honest and accurate response the the question asked?

[yossarian22c]

I don't think I ever said that Al Gore waiting until his case played out in the courts was a bad thing. All I said was that I don't remember Democrats saying that the way they are saying it for Trump now. The number of votes isn't the only issue. The main issue is getting the count right. Not conceding makes that more likely to happen. If he concedes nobody will care about it anymore.

The people who run the elections always care about getting it right. Its just that when vote tallies get shifted by a small amount as they are certifying the results it doesn't make the news because the errors in the initial count and reporting were so much smaller than any margin between the candidates in the races.

It's good to have some of these cases get settled in court too because they are precedent setting like the ones in Pennsylvania over the late ballots and that will be useful for future elections as well as help state legislatures decide what they want their laws to be so the courts don't try to do it for them.

How do you feel about Trump saying the following?

He only won in the eyes of the FAKE NEWS MEDIA. I concede NOTHING! We have a long way to go. This was a RIGGED ELECTION!

Clearly he isn't saying we just want to clean up the election laws get some resolution on precedent, he's saying the election this was rigged. Somehow all those Democrats rigging the election forgot to mark all their fraudulent ballots for Senate and House races.

[noel c.]

Y-22,

“How many fraudulent votes has Trump's team uncovered in 11 days of investigating?”

I doubt that specific instances would be publicized without a charge, and conviction, of the individual involved. Give investigation the time required.

“So your response is instead answering Trump has identified 0 fraudulent votes in 11 (now 12) days of investigating... “

Do you seriously believe that “0” cases of voter fraud have been uncovered?

How is your research into Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act abuse coming? Is it still exemplar of the fair administration of justice? Can you give an “honest”, and informed, answer?

For all of the expressed concern regarding anticipated Trump rally violence, it appears Antifa has reappeared on the stage. :

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/washington-dc-violence-trump-supporters-counterprotesters-brawl-2020-11%3famp

Any comment?

[msquared]

noel

So far the  Trump campaign has not been able to produce any evidence of fraud. In over a dozen cases that have been thrown out. Even when Trump supporters have offered $1 million dollars to anyone who can provide evidence of fraud.  No takers.

Trump does not have to concede. People call him a realist. The reality is he will loose. You are correct in that he has not lost. But he will loose. So he should start acting like it. For the good of the country.  But he will not because the good of the country is not something he cares  about.  He cares about one thing and one thing only. Himself.  He is a profoundly selfish man.

[yossarian22c]

Y-22,

“How many fraudulent votes has Trump's team uncovered in 11 days of investigating?”

I doubt that specific instances would be publicized without a charge, and conviction, of the individual involved. Give investigation the time required.

Really? Trump or Don Jr. wouldn't have tweeted about it like they have tweeted about so many debunked voter fraud conspiracy theories. They only tweet out the false claims but keep the real evidence and cases secret?

“So your response is instead answering Trump has identified 0 fraudulent votes in 11 (now 12) days of investigating... “

Do you seriously believe that “0” cases of voter fraud have been uncovered?

Yes. Otherwise Trump would be tweeting in all caps about them. Unless it was someone caught double voting for him. Then maybe he would have stayed silent.

How is your research into Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act abuse coming? Is it still exemplar of the fair administration of justice? Can you give an “honest”, and informed, answer?

For all of the expressed concern regarding anticipated Trump rally violence, it appears Antifa has reappeared on the stage. :

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/washington-dc-violence-trump-supporters-counterprotesters-brawl-2020-11%3famp

Any comment?

You're really looking for a subject change huh? Tough to back up all those voter fraud claims with no evidence so far. How long do you think those investigations will take to find 1 fraudulent vote? Does Trump get to stay president for the entire investigation? I'm sure he can stretch it out for 4 years. Declare some martial law in the meantime. How far will you support him?

[DonaldD]

The heritage database is only useful, if at all, as a tool to identify the types of election malfeasance. 

Take that ~1300 tally reported by the Heritage Foundation database, and contrast it to the approximately 2.3 billion votes cast in federal elections since 1980, and ignoring local elections, runoffs or referenda.  The rate of illegality comes out to less than 1 problematic ballot per million votes cast.  Include non-federal election ballots over the same period and the rate is even less.

Clearly, using the Heritage database as evidence that the prevalence of voter fraud is an issue is a non-starter.  Looking at specific examples, you could argue that for local races, controls do need to be maintained in order to avoid unfair results where votes in the dozens might sway an election.  But even assuming all those problems, identified over a 40 year period and spread across the country over different levels of government, if we assumed all of them to have occurred in a single state, and all during the 2020 presidential election, and even assuming that all the fraud was in a single direction and not offsetting whatsoever, they would still be an order of magnitude too small to affect even the closest race for EC votes in 2020.

[Aris Katsaris]

I really don’t understand what it is between the Greeks, and Turks, but that conflict has lasted for about 100 years.

More like 500 or 600. I suppose you would say "100 years" only if you count Turkey from the time of the formation of the modern Turkish state, but obviously the Turkish nation significantly preexisted that one, as the leaders of the Ottoman empire.

visited that school about ten years ago. In a middle to upper middle class neighborhood that was 95% Caucasian, it is now 5% Caucasian, 44% Latino, 39% Asian, 20% Black, and 5% Pacific Islander. 78% of the student body are from an “economically disadvantaged” household, as determined by student eligibility for California's Reduced-price meal program. Academic achievement is reflected in the change, as is on campus violence.

As long as you don't pretend it's not a racial thing, that's my point: That Republicans don't want Puerto Rico joining because they're Hispanics.

Of course the thing about Puerto Rico is that it's currently not independent. Democracy demands that either it fully participates in American democracy or it becomes independent. Half-way solutions are undemocratic.

Do you seriously believe that “0” cases of voter fraud have been uncovered?

If it wasn't zero, I'm sure we'd have heard Trump tweeting about it already.

“You seriously, honestly, think that Trump believes what he is saying?“

Yes, and I am surprised that you do not. With his sense of self, how could he not believe what he is saying?

So you think him a person prone to delusions, not just lies, and you still voted for him?

I mean "often delusional" may be the one thing that's worse and more dangerous for his position than "habitual liar".

“Trump doesn't give a fart about the truth. See ‘Birthergate’ and every other conspiracy theory he's been willing to spew.“

He thought that Ted Cruz’s father was a communist Castro disciple too, because he saw it in the Enquirer.

Why are you assuming Trump really thought it, instead of just pretending to?

“You're rejecting a democratic result, just because you don't like it, and allegations of fraud are bull*censored* that you yourselves don't believe in.”

Wow, you are strangely invested in America for someone who despises half of its citizens.

Nah, Trump only got 70 million votes. That's like what only 1/5th of American citizens? I'm pretty sure I'd despise equivalent numbers of humanity everywhere.

And up to Trump's presidency, America and its president was the "leader of the free world". Sometimes (e.g. under G.W. Bush) it was the moronic brainless leader of the free world, but the leader of the free world nonetheless.

With Trump, America lost its leadership and became a rogue nation.

Have you noticed that even Trump's supporters don't call the US president the leader of the free world anymore? Not when he's the ally of people like Putin, and he instead acts as the ambassador of his wishes to G7 instead. Not when he's pulling out of major treaties, not when he's treating all its former allies as enemies instead.

Right now the free world is leaderless -- the USA a rogue nation under Trump, UK isolated after the catastrophic Brexit, EU slow-moving and disunited without the institutions yet in place (or likely ever) to hold a united front.

And taking advantage of America's Trump-instigated absense, the imperialist ambitions of nations like Russia, China, Turkey are rising, threatening all their neighbours with war.

[noel c.]

Y-22,

“Really? Trump or Don Jr. wouldn't have tweeted about it like they have tweeted about so many debunked voter fraud conspiracy theories. They only tweet out the false claims but keep the real evidence and cases secret?”

You love the idea of “conspiracy”, which I have never asserted. Would you object to representing my position ”honestly“? Tweeting out regarding a collection of individual cases is not something that I would expect Trump, or Don Jr. to be even informed of, much less “tweeting” about.

“Yes. Otherwise Trump would be tweeting in all caps about them. Unless it was someone caught double voting for him. Then maybe he would have stayed silent.”

You are much more naive than I believed you to be.

“You're really looking for a subject change huh?”

The subject is not new with this post, nor is your evasion. I would like an ”honest, and informed”, if overdue, answer. Can you do that? I would also like Your reaction to Antifa throwing fireworks at restaurant patrons. Do you see how the left might be perceived as a little looney?

“Tough to back up all those voter fraud claims with no evidence so far. How long do you think those investigations will take to find 1 fraudulent vote?”

”Finding” them is less of a time issue than publicizing them.

“Does Trump get to stay president for the entire investigation?”

Do you really want me to believe that you are this naive? You do realize that he is President until January 20th irrespective of election results, correct? What circumstances in the interim dictate regarding Biden will be addressed as necessary, but probably no more than necessary.

“I'm sure he can stretch it out for 4 years. Declare some martial law in the meantime. How far will you support him?”

Okay, you do not care if you sound ridiculous. Not my problem.

[cherrypoptart]

"As long as you don't pretend it's not a racial thing, that's my point: That Republicans don't want Puerto Rico joining because they're Hispanics."

Not true at all and I can almost prove it.

If the Cubans in Cuba voted like the Cubans in Miami then Republicans would love to have them join. In fact, maybe thirty years from now that will be the new Great Compromise. Puerto Rico can join the Union on the condition that Cuba join at the same time.

The point though is that the problem isn't that they're Hispanic but instead that they would likely favor Democrats.

[noel c.]

Aris,

“More like 500 or 600. I suppose you would say ‘100‘ years only if you count Turkey from the time of the formation of the modern Turkish state, but obviously the Turkish nation significantly preexisted that one, as the leaders of the Ottoman empire.”

I entertained a 2,500 year conflict if Darius was used as the starting point, but Persia’s incorporation of ancient Turkey was punctuated by occupation of Byzantines in the west, and Seljuks in the east. So, what is the conflict about?

“As long as you don't pretend it's not a racial thing, that's my point: That Republicans don't want Puerto Rico joining because they're Hispanics.“

Your comment is inherently racist. I have ample reason to object to cultural encroachment, which is entirely unrelated to pigmentation.

“Of course the thing about Puerto Rico is that it's currently not independent. Democracy demands that either it fully participates in American democracy or it becomes independent. Half-way solutions are undemocratic.“

I agree, does Puerto Rico want, and can it survive, “independence”?

“So you think him a person prone to delusions, not just lies, and you still voted for him?“

I think Trump takes personal ownership of whatever he controls, and does so very effectively. I trusted that he would manage America with the same care that he would one of his own properties. He has.

The alternative of a prevaricating kleptomaniac, who has made a business out of dispensing government largesse, was simply not an acceptable option to me.

“I mean ‘often delusional’ may be the one thing that's worse and more dangerous for his position than ‘habitual liar’.”

”Habitual lying” seems to be the norm among politicians. The ability to implement what you call “delusions” is actually quite rare, and valuable.

“Why are you assuming Trump really thought it, instead of just pretending to?”

Because his lack of educational breath in areas outside of real estate development, and showmanship, leave him vulnerable to those kinds of claims. Fortunately, he knows enough to surround himself with people who can compensate for that deficiency, and he is a quick study.

“Nah, Trump only got 70 million votes. That's like what only 1/5th of American citizens? I'm pretty sure I'd despise equivalent numbers of humanity everywhere.“

Polling takes a broader sampling than that, and circa March 24th his approval rating was at 49%. You need to spread the vitriol a little more generously.

“And up to Trump's presidency, America and its president was the ‘leader of the free world’. Sometimes (e.g. under G.W. Bush) it was the moronic brainless leader of the free world, but the leader of the free world nonetheless.“

Yes, the EU does have difficulty paying its debts. America’s decision to step away from the sugar-daddy role was not popular with European leaders, but even Merkel eventually came around when confronted with political realities.

“With Trump, America lost its leadership and became a rogue nation.“

America is the Elephant in the room that only a fool ignores at their peril. Our priorities have shifted from an aging, and flagging Europe, to the Indo-Pacific. The future lies in emerging nations, especially India. Your “world” can follow, or be left behind... their choice.

“Have you noticed that even Trump's supporters don't call the US president the leader of the free world anymore?”

Are platitudes now a measure of world leadership?

“Not when he's the ally of people like Putin... “

You should notify Putin of his status. I am pretty sure that Russia is chafing under Trump’s economic sanctions.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2018/09/25/on-the-record-the-u-s-administrations-actions-on-russia/amp/

“... and he instead acts as the ambassador of his wishes to G7 instead. Not when he's pulling out of major treaties, not when he's treating all its former allies as enemies instead.“

Perhaps our allies would deign to start honoring their NATO comments, and speaking of Russian complicity; who is the primary beneficiary of Russian gas development/exportation?

“Right now the free world is leaderless -- the USA a rogue nation under Trump... “

The “free world” is larger than Europe, and if they do not get their stuff together, they will not be part of the free world.

“UK isolated after the catastrophic Brexit, EU slow-moving and disunited without the institutions yet in place (or likely ever) to hold a united front.“

Britain has a strong ally in America. That was a choice which the British made democratically. Perhaps it is the fractured EU that is feeling isolated?

“And taking advantage of America's Trump-instigated absense, the imperialist ambitions of nations like Russia, China, Turkey are rising, threatening all their neighbours with war.”

That sounds like a perfect rationale for the EU to pay their NATO dues, refuse dependence upon Russian fuel, and be more timely in supporting the Wauwei embargo, among other things.

[Aris Katsaris]

Aris,

“More like 500 or 600. I suppose you would say ‘100‘ years only if you count Turkey from the time of the formation of the modern Turkish state, but obviously the Turkish nation significantly preexisted that one, as the leaders of the Ottoman empire.”

I entertained a 2,500 year conflict if Darius was used as the starting point, but Persia’s incorporation of ancient Turkey was punctuated by occupation of Byzantines in the west, and Seljuks in the east. So, what is the conflict about?

Persians aren't Turks. Persians are currently the majority of the Iranian nation.
Persia didn't incorporate "ancient Turkey" since Turkey wasn't around at that time, and the Turkish people hadn't migrated there yet -- you mean ancient Anatolia (which is a geographic term).

So, what is the conflict about?

Not really the thread for it, but sure whatever, let me give it to you in bulletpoints.

I count 6 or 7 major issues, depending on whether you count the naval/airspace issues as one or two.
- Turkish occupation of Northern Cyprus (and expulsion of Greek Cypriots), after the Greek military junta attempted a coup in Cyprus in 1974. Turkey argues the presence of its troops there are necessary to protect the Turkish Cypriot population.
- Turkey has declared a casus belli if Greece expand its naval borders in the Aegean to 12 miles. as would be Greece's right by International Maritime Law (which Turkey refuses to recognize)
- Greece currently claims 10 n.m of airspace, while only 6 n.ms of naval space. Turkey acknowledges only 6 n.m of Greek airspace, same as with the naval space.
- Turkey argues that none of Greece's islands have the right to EEZ, and that Greece's EEZ can only extend from the continental parts of Greece. Greece argues that all of Greece's islands deserve full EEZ rights, even the smallest and furthest one (Kastelorizo) (which would severely limit Turkey's EEZ in the Eastern Mediterannean).
- Turkey disputes the actual ownership of certain small uninhabited islands like Imia (Kardak)
- Turkey claims Greece violates the religious and ethnic rights of the Turkish minority in Western Thrace. Greece refuses to recognize the minority as "Turkish" at all, and instead calls it a "muslim" minority.
- Turkey demands the demilitarization of certain Greek islands in the Aegean, as was promised in certain treaties of the 1920s and 1930s (I think). Greece refuses to comply.

These are basically the "permanent" issues. You could inflate this count by listing incidental issues like Greece accusing Turkey weaponising the movement of refugees towards Greece, or Turkey accusing Greece of assisting Kurdish terrorists, or various other accusations over the years, but those aren't really "disputes" and "conflicts" in the sense that the above bulletpoints are.

Britain has a strong ally in America. That was a choice which the British made democratically.

Nobody's disputing that it was a choice the British made democratically, but catastrophic choices can also be made democratically. "Has a strong ally in America"? Not under Trump, no. What makes you think it? Haven't the UK and USA failed so far to make a post-Brexit trade deal either? In what way is the USA and UK allies, during the Trump administration?

[yossarian22c]

Y-22,

“Really? Trump or Don Jr. wouldn't have tweeted about it like they have tweeted about so many debunked voter fraud conspiracy theories. They only tweet out the false claims but keep the real evidence and cases secret?”

You love the idea of “conspiracy”, which I have never asserted. Would you object to representing my position ”honestly“? Tweeting out regarding a collection of individual cases is not something that I would expect Trump, or Don Jr. to be even informed of, much less “tweeting” about.

I was clearly characterizing Trump's and his son's position there not yours. Why do you think a statement about what Trump and his son's have tweeted was describing your position? Why wouldn't Trump be advised when his team uncovers fraudulent votes? Its literally what he's paying all these lawyers to do, find fraudulent votes and help tip the scales back in his favor. Why wouldn't he be informed of any success they had? 

“Yes. Otherwise Trump would be tweeting in all caps about them. Unless it was someone caught double voting for him. Then maybe he would have stayed silent.”

You are much more naive than I believed you to be.

I'm not the one who believes Trump believes everything he tweets.

“Tough to back up all those voter fraud claims with no evidence so far. How long do you think those investigations will take to find 1 fraudulent vote?”

”Finding” them is less of a time issue than publicizing them.

If only Trump had a way to pick up his phone and get a message to 100's of millions of people at once.

“Does Trump get to stay president for the entire investigation?”

Do you really want me to believe that you are this naive? You do realize that he is President until January 20th irrespective of election results, correct? What circumstances in the interim dictate regarding Biden will be addressed as necessary, but probably no more than necessary.

Yep he's President until Jan 20th at noon. I'm concerned he'll try to pull something in the interim to change that. He clearly admires dictators and strong men and their method of ruling. He is still claiming the election was rigged without evidence. What are you willing to accept from the man if he declares the election illegal, null, tries to retain power. Because he's heading that direction. Maybe the rest of the people around in power ignore him beginning Jan 20th at 12:01pm. But until that time he can cause some damage and refusing to leave quietly isn't a good tradition and is going to leave our country divided for years as Trump acolytes unjustifiably lose faith in elections because their Great Leader fed them a load of BS about a rigged election and voter fraud.

[noel c.]

Aris,

“Nobody's disputing that it was a choice the British made democratically, but catastrophic choices can also be made democratically.”

True, but “catastrophic“ for who? Britain felt the same parasitic drag from E.U. membership that the U.S. feels from NATO membership. There is something to be learned by the E.U. from that.

"Has a strong ally in America"? Not under Trump, no. What makes you think it?“

In 2015, Cameron anticipated a “golden era” of Chinese/U.K. cooperation, including Chinese investment in crucial British infrastructure such as nuclear power plants, and a 5G network. Essentially, the Brits fell for the same “Silk Road Economic Belt" strategy that China has successfully employed in loan-sharking much smaller nations into economic subjugation. This was not going to work for Trump. Cameron thought he could finesse security interoperability objections coming from the U.S., but the arrest in December 2018 of Huawei's CFO in Vancouver sent that strategy into a coffin, then the American chip and technology embargo last May drove nails into the lid.

Johnson placed a 100% ban on Huawei from the U.K.’s 5G infrastructure in July. Downing Street has also worked with Australia, Canada, and the U. S. to impose sanctions on China for its imposition of the new security law in Hong Kong. As Churchill once said; “Americans (British) will always do the right thing, only after they have tried everything else.”

“Haven't the UK and USA failed so far to make a post-Brexit trade deal either? In what way is the USA and UK allies, during the Trump administration?”

The single obstacle to that trade agreement, which Britain vitally needs, is now gone.

“These are basically the ‘permanent’ issues. You could inflate this count by listing incidental issues like Greece accusing Turkey weaponising the movement of refugees towards Greece, or Turkey accusing Greece of assisting Kurdish terrorists, or various other accusations over the years, but those aren't really "disputes" and "conflicts" in the sense that the above bulletpoints are.”

At the root of this, and your bullet points, seem to be the classical East/West cultural divide. Is that a fair conclusion?

[Aris Katsaris]

True, but “catastrophic“ for who?

For the UK, mate.

In November 2015 the british pound was worth up to 1.42 euro -- 5 years later, November 2020 it's now worth 1.12 euro. That's a fall of more than 20% of their currency's value.

And the full consequences of brexit haven't even been seen yet, as UK is still in the customs union until end of the current year.

Johnson placed a 100% ban on Huawei from the U.K.’s 5G infrastructure in July. Downing Street has also worked with Australia, Canada, and the U. S. to impose sanctions on China for its imposition of the new security law in Hong Kong.

You said that UK has a "strong ally" in America, and you instead gave me examples of UK being an ally of America. I'm asking about the different direction, what has the United States done for the UK?

The single obstacle to that trade agreement, which Britain vitally needs, is now gone.

The EU is gone, and UK still has no trade deal with the USA. What's the hold up?

At the root of this, and your bullet points, seem to be the classical East/West cultural divide. Is that a fair conclusion?

No. Not a single issue I mentioned is about the 'classical East/West cultural divide', or indeed about culture at all. It's almost all about resources, borderlines, militaries. I wonder how the f*ck in h*ll you came to a conclusion that it's supposedly about "the classical East/West cultural divide".

Frankly I think your prejudice is showing.

[noel c.]

Y-22,

“I was clearly characterizing Trump's and his son's position there not yours. Why do you think a statement about what Trump and his son's have tweeted was describing your position?”

Their position must, of necessity, match mine, as applied to individual cases of voter fraud.

“Why wouldn't Trump be advised when his team uncovers fraudulent votes? Its literally what he's paying all these lawyers to do, find fraudulent votes and help tip the scales back in his favor. Why wouldn't he be informed of any success they had?”

You are not going to be seeing the fraud that you are asking for without charges, and convictions. The public stuff is institutional ie.; State court constitutional violations, obstructed poll observer access, unpostmarked ballot acceptance, signature match conflicts, etc., none of which is “conspiratorial”, and some of which can only be detected by a hand-recount.

“I'm not the one who believes Trump believes everything he tweets.”

Right, but you think he is going to declare martial law, and barricade the White House. 

“If only Trump had a way to pick up his phone and get a message to 100's of millions of people at once.“

Prosecutions do not work that way.

“Yep he's President until Jan 20th at noon.”

He is President until, at least, noon on January 20th.

“I'm concerned he'll try to pull something in the interim to change that. He clearly admires dictators and strong men and their method of ruling.”

Maybe he will trigger a FISA breach of all intelligence agencies, prompting a bulk release of Biden’s Ukraine/China family business holdings (even if spurious) leaked to all media outlets. They would have to report the story, or Fox News would scoop them. It could be timed to pour cold-water on an incoming president’s first briefing on the matter by Director Wray during an entrapment attempt. Biden’s ability to govern would then be ham-strung, as he is too feeble to actually fight back. It would effectively keep Kamala at bay for the next four years... or until Uncle Joe passes away, whichever comes first.

Hey, are you ever going to explain why FISA abuse is okay if a couple of unrelated perjury convictions emerge from the effort?

“He is still claiming the election was rigged without evidence. What are you willing to accept from the man if he declares the election illegal, null, tries to retain power. Because he's heading that direction.”

Sit down with a bag of pop-corn. Trump is the ultimate entertainer.

“Maybe the rest of the people around in power ignore him beginning Jan 20th at 12:01pm. But until that time he can cause some damage... “

Unfortunately, Trump is already well acquainted with that through his predecessor.

“... and refusing to leave quietly isn't a good tradition and is going to leave our country divided for years... “

You really fail to understand, that horse has already left the barn.

“... as Trump acolytes unjustifiably lose faith in elections because their Great Leader fed them a load of BS about a rigged election and voter fraud.”

Again, you are a little late in concerning yourself with that.

[noel c.]

Aris,

“For the UK, mate. In November 2015 the british pound was worth up to 1.42 euro -- 5 years later, November 2020 it's now worth 1.12 euro. That's a fall of more than 20% of their currency's value.”

A devaluation should help their international trade competitiveness.

“And the full consequences of brexit haven't even been seen yet, as UK is still in the customs union until end of the current year.”

I have no idea of how that will resolve either, but relinking Britain’s economy to the E.U. is foolish if an emphasis on American trade replaces it.

“You said that UK has a "strong ally" in America, and you instead gave me examples of UK being an ally of America. I'm asking about the different direction, what has the United States done for the UK?”

You make this sound like a parent/child relationship. It is not America’s responsibility to “do” something for Britain. Trade agreements are bilateral. Britain’s best hope is that Trump pulls off an upset. We already know about Barry’s position that “Brexit would put UK ‘back of the queue’ for trade talks”.

“No. Not a single issue I mentioned is about the 'classical East/West cultural divide', or indeed about culture at all. It's almost all about resources, borderlines, militaries. I wonder how the f*ck in h*ll you came to a conclusion that it's supposedly about "the classical East/West cultural divide".

This:

“Turkey claims Greece violates the religious and ethnic rights of the Turkish minority in Western Thrace. Greece refuses to recognize the minority as "Turkish" at all, and instead calls it a "muslim" minority.[/u]

These are basically the "permanent" issues. You could inflate this count by listing incidental issues like Greece accusing Turkey weaponising the movement of refugees towards Greece, or Turkey accusing Greece of assisting Kurdish terrorists, or various other accusations over the years, but those aren't really ‘disputes’ and ‘conflicts’ in the sense that the above bulletpoints are.”

“Frankly I think your prejudice is showing.”

Are you capable of any other criteria of analysis?

[Aris Katsaris]

“Turkey claims Greece violates the religious and ethnic rights of the Turkish minority in Western Thrace. Greece refuses to recognize the minority as "Turkish" at all, and instead calls it a "muslim" minority.[/u]

These are basically the "permanent" issues. You could inflate this count by listing incidental issues like Greece accusing Turkey weaponising the movement of refugees towards Greece, or Turkey accusing Greece of assisting Kurdish terrorists, or various other accusations over the years, but those aren't really ‘disputes’ and ‘conflicts’ in the sense that the above bulletpoints are.”

How is any of this Eastern/Western cultural divide, especially if you mean Turkey representing the East and Greece the West?

I mean the *minority* thing is a case where it's Greece that fails to uphold the Western norms of recognizing ethnic minorities, and instead does a thing where it does an "Eastern" thing and treats religion as the identifying mark of a community, rather accepting their own ethnic self-identification.

Not to mention that even if I gave you that point (which I really *censored*ing DON'T) you really focused on one of the 7 bullet points, and you then pretended that all seven bullet points are about your stupid nonsensical East/West cultural divide.

Are you capable of any other criteria of analysis?

The moment you stop showing your bigoted prejudices. You asked what the Greece/Turkey conflict was about, and then you failed to listen a single word I said, because your head is filled with prejudice and bigotry. Stop listening to the echoes inside your head, and actually *censored*ing read what other people are saying for once.

[DonaldD]

Stop listening to the echoes inside your head, and actually *censored*ing read what other people are saying for once.

When everybody is telling you the same thing, noel, maybe it's time to at least consider the point being made...

[yossarian22c]

Y-22,

“I was clearly characterizing Trump's and his son's position there not yours. Why do you think a statement about what Trump and his son's have tweeted was describing your position?”

Their position must, of necessity, match mine, as applied to individual cases of voter fraud.

Seriously? You must have exactly the same opinion as the president and his son's to each individual claim of voter fraud they make?

“Why wouldn't Trump be advised when his team uncovers fraudulent votes? Its literally what he's paying all these lawyers to do, find fraudulent votes and help tip the scales back in his favor. Why wouldn't he be informed of any success they had?”

You are not going to be seeing the fraud that you are asking for without charges, and convictions.

Before there are charges there is evidence of a crime. Trump's out finding all this crime and fraud why can't we get a sneak peak.

The public stuff is institutional ie.; State court constitutional violations, obstructed poll observer access, unpostmarked ballot acceptance, signature match conflicts, etc., none of which is “conspiratorial”, and some of which can only be detected by a hand-recount.

So now its there is no concern about fraud (except maybe the signature match conflicts) but Trump's going to try to get a bunch of ballots tossed out on technicalities. I'm for upholding the law and rooting out real fraud but looking for any reason to get rid of ballots not cast for you isn't a democratic ideal.

“I'm not the one who believes Trump believes everything he tweets.”

Right, but you think he is going to declare martial law, and barricade the White House. 

That was half sarcasm, half worst case of what I think Trump is capable of. I don't expect it. But Trump has the temperament to try. I think he would if the military and police forces would go along with him. Let's say I have more confidence in our military and law enforcement to make it a big concern but I fully believe Trump would love to see enough violence on the streets that he could try to trigger the insurrection act.

”Finding” them is less of a time issue than publicizing them.

“If only Trump had a way to pick up his phone and get a message to 100's of millions of people at once.“

Prosecutions do not work that way.

I added back in the statement I was directly responding too. Prosecutions don't work that way but publicizing does.

“Yep he's President until Jan 20th at noon.”

He is President until, at least, noon on January 20th.

“I'm concerned he'll try to pull something in the interim to change that. He clearly admires dictators and strong men and their method of ruling.”

Maybe he will trigger a FISA breach of all intelligence agencies, prompting a bulk release of Biden’s Ukraine/China family business holdings (even if spurious) leaked to all media outlets. They would have to report the story, or Fox News would scoop them. It could be timed to pour cold-water on an incoming president’s first briefing on the matter by Director Wray during an entrapment attempt. Biden’s ability to govern would then be ham-strung, as he is too feeble to actually fight back. It would effectively keep Kamala at bay for the next four years... or until Uncle Joe passes away, whichever comes first.

Shrug, if Trump on his way out the door declassifies documents exposing Biden's alleged corruption then I'll enjoy watching Republicans decide if they want to impeach him and welcome in President Harris. Note I don't think any such documents exist.

Hey, are you ever going to explain why FISA abuse is okay if a couple of unrelated perjury convictions emerge from the effort?

No, not on this thread. Your just looking to change the subject from the abject lack of evidence of voter fraud to anything else. You jumped off with Aris on the history of conflicts in Greece and you want to jump off and rehash some old ground on FISA warrants here.

“He is still claiming the election was rigged without evidence. What are you willing to accept from the man if he declares the election illegal, null, tries to retain power. Because he's heading that direction.”

Sit down with a bag of pop-corn. Trump is the ultimate entertainer.

So Trump declaring an election null and void is entertainment? We have different ideas of what constitutes entertainment.

“... and refusing to leave quietly isn't a good tradition and is going to leave our country divided for years... “

You really fail to understand, that horse has already left the barn.

“... as Trump acolytes unjustifiably lose faith in elections because their Great Leader fed them a load of BS about a rigged election and voter fraud.”

Again, you are a little late in concerning yourself with that.

Suppose so since Trump has been planting those seeds for four years. Odd he didn't spend more time as president working on securing elections.

[noel c.]

Aris,

“How is any of this Eastern/Western cultural divide, especially if you mean Turkey representing the East and Greece the West?“

That was the right question.

“I mean the *minority* thing is a case where it's Greece that fails to uphold the Western norms of recognizing ethnic minorities, and instead does a thing where it does an "Eastern" thing and treats religion as the identifying mark of a community, rather accepting their own ethnic self-identification.“

Technically, Islam, missed the classical era altogether.

By “classical” I was thinking more along the lines of Greek/Persian comparisons, which from historical Greek sources cite political structure alone as differentiating Easterners ”slaves“ to monarchs, and themselves, the self-governed. Aeschylus, Aristotle, and Alexander the Great may have been representing Greek ethnicity from a “bigoted” perspective, and slavery was certainly present in their culture, but their basic concept was correct, just not universally applied. Islam does happen to be undemocratic, and that is not an “echo inside (my) head”, it is an empirical fact.

Can you give me an answer on that basis? Does Greece violate the religious and ethnic rights of the Turkish minority in Western Thrace? If so, how, and why?

“Turkey weaponising the movement of refugees towards Greece”. 

Directing 3.6 million Syrian refugees to Greek points of entry, more recently mercenaries recruited from their ranks, does seem like a cultural assault. What are these people doing when they arrive in Greece?

“Not to mention that even if I gave you that point (which I really *censored*ing DON'T) you really focused on one of the 7 bullet points, and you then pretended that all seven bullet points are about your stupid nonsensical East/West cultural divide.“

“It's almost all about resources, borderlines, and militaries“

It is never “all about resources, borderlines, and militaries”, but if that is what you have, fine.

“The moment you stop showing your bigoted prejudices. You asked what the Greece/Turkey conflict was about, and then you failed to listen a single word I said, because your head is filled with prejudice and bigotry. Stop listening to the echoes inside your head, and actually *censored*ing read what other people are saying for once.“

I read, and understood, what you said Aris.

[Aris Katsaris]

No, I'm not enabling your derail anymore.

You maliciously refuse to listen.

[noel c.]

Y-22,

“Seriously? You must have exactly the same opinion as the president and his son's to each individual claim of voter fraud they make?”

Individual fraud will not be made public, especially if uncovered by an attorney, without prosecution and conviction. On that I am certain their opinion matches mine.

“Before there are charges there is evidence of a crime. Trump's out finding all this crime and fraud why can't we get a sneak peak.“

Nope.

“So now its there is no concern about fraud (except maybe the signature match conflicts) but Trump's going to try to get a bunch of ballots tossed out on technicalities.”

No, read what I wrote.

“I'm for upholding the law and rooting out real fraud but looking for any reason to get rid of ballots not cast for you isn't a democratic ideal.”

Nor is that what I, or Trump, have said, or implied. I appreciate your concern for the rule of law though, it is just impossible believe you.

“That was half sarcasm, half worst case of what I think Trump is capable of. I don't expect it. But Trump has the temperament to try. I think he would if the military and police forces would go along with him. Let's say I have more confidence in our military and law enforcement to make it a big concern but I fully believe Trump would love to see enough violence on the streets that he could try to trigger the insurrection act.“

That is your best response to Antifa throwing fireworks at restaurant patrons?

“I added back in the statement I was directly responding too. Prosecutions don't work that way but publicizing does.“

Okay?

“Shrug, if Trump on his way out the door declassifies documents exposing Biden's alleged corruption then I'll enjoy watching Republicans decide if they want to impeach him and welcome in President Harris. Note I don't think any such documents exist.“

Yes, I knew you felt that way, and certainly Biden would be better neutralized as a political cypher, than an ex-president. For the record; what Barry ”declassified“ did not “exist“. That failed prevent a release under the aegis of “... all intelligence sources agree”. Biden already has problems on that count.

So, does using government bureaucracy to neutralize an election bother you, or is it only a problem when you do not like the results?

“No, not on this thread. Your just looking to change the subject from the abject lack of evidence of voter fraud to anything else.”

What thread will you answer it on?

“You jumped off with Aris on the history of conflicts in Greece and you want to jump off and rehash some old ground on FISA warrants here.”

“Rehash”, as in you failed to answer the question before, and you’re stickin’ with your story. That does not sound like a “jump-off“ if you are serious about understanding why Republicans are standing by Trump. (Which you have asked me repeatedly)

“So Trump declaring an election null and void is entertainment? We have different ideas of what constitutes entertainment.“

I do not see how that would work constitutionally, but I am certain what he ultimately does will be entertaining. I am already anticipating your principled indignation.

“Suppose so since Trump has been planting those seeds for four years. Odd he didn't spend more time as president working on securing elections.”

Supreme Court decisions are a fairly effective means of securing elections, don’t you agree?

[noel c.]

Aris,

“You maliciously refuse to listen.”

Now that is a novel form of malice. Possibly there is a deficiency in your responses?

[Aris Katsaris]

Aris,

“You maliciously refuse to listen.”

Now that is a novel form of malice. Possibly there is a deficiency in your responses?

No, there wasn't.

You're so ignorant of Greece-Turkey history that you were confusing Turks and Persians, and then you had the audacity of trying to teach me lessons about what the conflict really is about, rather than hearing me. *censored* off, you ignorant bigoted *censored*.

And btw, Greece has never had a single incident of Islamist terrorism (despite having about a million muslim immigrants since the early 1990s), we have had a LOT of Christian genocidal mass-murderers though. Enough of them that they participated in the Serb-bosnian genocide at Srebnenica, and became 3rd national party for a time, before getting thrown into jail very recently for being a criminal gang.

And those same neonazis (literal worshippers of Adolf Hitler) also heartily supported Trump btw.

That will, of course, not give you pause. Nor will you wonder why neonazis across the world loved Trump.

[noel c.]

Aris,

“You're so ignorant of Greece-Turkey history that you were confusing Turks and Persians... “

No, I let your interpolation slide out of courtesy. You did not carefully read what I said, and there was no confusion of Persians with the Turks. That was your contribution. There is a 2,500 year old history of conflict at the Bosporus, and it is not a reach to look for ongoing cultural causes. As you are aware, race and ethnicity are not the same thing.

“... and then you had the audacity of trying to teach me lessons about what the conflict really is about, rather than hearing me. *censored* off, you ignorant bigoted *censored*.“

So that is what this is about, my ”audacity“.

“And btw, Greece has never had a single incident of Islamist terrorism (despite having about a million muslim immigrants since the early 1990s), we have had a LOT of Christian genocidal mass-murderers though. Enough of them that they participated in the Serb-bosnian genocide at Srebnenica, and became 3rd national party for a time, before getting thrown into jail very recently for being a criminal gang.“

Thanks, that type of feedback would have been appropriate earlier. So what are these Syrian “mercenaries” dong while in Greece?

“And those same neonazis (literal worshippers of Adolf Hitler) also heartily supported Trump btw.”

That settles it, Trump must be a ‘fascist‘, right?

“That will, of course, not give you pause. Nor will you wonder why neonazis across the world loved Trump.“

You must really need to get this off your chest. How many neonazis across the world do you know?

[noel c.]

I appreciate the lead Aris, but you do not need to respond. I think that I answered my question. :

“Thanks, that type of feedback would have been appropriate earlier. So what are these Syrian ‘mercenaries’ dong while in Greece?“

Answer:

“Radical Islamist groups could participate in low-risk assignments, such as recruitment, funding, propaganda and training in the country (Greece).”

“In recent years, Greece has been used as a transit country by individuals who travel to and from conflict zones with ‘unclear motives’. Only in 2016, 15 suspected Jihadists were arrested transiting through Greece, according to the recent Europol annual report.”

https://www.eliamep.gr/en/γιατί-το-ισλαμικό-κράτος-δεν-έχει-πλήξ/

[noel c.]

Apparently, my browser cannot read Greek links. The author of “EXPLAINING THE ABSENCE OF ISLAMIST TERRORIST ATTACKS AND RADICALISATION IN GREECE” is *Dr Dimitris Skleparis, Research Associate at the University of Glasgow

[Aris Katsaris]

Yours, noel, is exactly the monomaniacal racist obsession, plus the dishonest failure to hear anything that the other person is saying that I fully expect from a Trump supporter.

From your fake pretense to supposedly care about what the Greek-Turkey conflict is about, to deliberately trying to twist it that it's about immigrants and a supposed cultural conflict, even when I'm telling you it's not, because that's just what your particular brand of Trumpist evil demands. Oh, man, Syrian jihadists! What would you do without Syrian jihadists. Well, Greece and Turkey would still be fighting, since Syrian jihadists would not even be a footnote in a 100-page volume about the Greece-Turkey conflict, but you don't care about that. You'll focus on "Syrian jihadists", because that's what your prejudice demands.

Your comparisons between Turkey and Persia (please do include the Trojans too next time) are still absurd, whether you try to put it in cultural, ethnic or racial terms. If you were both sane and honest you could have tried geography instead, and seen why a sea-based military power makes sense to hold power in the islands and hellenic peninsula, while a land-based military power makes sense to hold power in Anatolia itself - but you wouldn't do that, because that wouldn't allow you to be *censored*ty towards people based on their ancestry, which is your endgoal here, not achieving actual understanding.

[msquared]

Ok so the Trump law suit in PA is basically asking the courts to throw out ballots that were cured (had small defects found before tabulation that the voter was allowed to correct, which is allowed by PA state law).  It seems that Democratic controlled counties did a much better job of doing that than Republican controlled counties. So the admin is suing the Democratic controlled counties, saying it is unfair.

They followed the rules and it is unfair?  Why are they not suing the Republican controlled counties for not doing their job correctly?

This suit, along with 99% of the others will get tossed or decided against the admin.

[yossarian22c]

”Finding” them is less of a time issue than publicizing them.

Prosecutions don't work that way but publicizing does.“

Can you not read your own words? Did you mean prosecuting instead of publicizing the first time?

“No, not on this thread. Your just looking to change the subject from the abject lack of evidence of voter fraud to anything else.”

What thread will you answer it on?
“Rehash”, as in you failed to answer the question before, and you’re stickin’ with your story. That does not sound like a “jump-off“ if you are serious about understanding why Republicans are standing by Trump. (Which you have asked me repeatedly)

Rehash, Russia, Ukraine, and FISA have had multiple threads that ran at length here. No reason to rehash those discussions when we're talking about election results and alleged election fraud.

“So Trump declaring an election null and void is entertainment? We have different ideas of what constitutes entertainment.“

I do not see how that would work constitutionally, but I am certain what he ultimately does will be entertaining. I am already anticipating your principled indignation.

And I don't believe Trump has any respect for the constitution. Luckily I think other responsible people in power will ignore any illegal orders he issues.

“Suppose so since Trump has been planting those seeds for four years. Odd he didn't spend more time as president working on securing elections.”

Supreme Court decisions are a fairly effective means of securing elections, don’t you agree?

No. I think getting states and counties more money to implement best practices in data management and election procedures. After Trump claimed 3+ million fraudulent ballots were cast for Clinton in 2016 he should have spent the last 4 years making sure the 2020 election couldn't have fraud at that imaginary level.

[yossarian22c]

Y-22,

“Seriously? You must have exactly the same opinion as the president and his son's to each individual claim of voter fraud they make?”

Individual fraud will not be made public, especially if uncovered by an attorney, without prosecution and conviction. On that I am certain their opinion matches mine.

Why won't voter fraud be made public? Why would a crime be kept secret until the prosecution and conviction of the perpetrator?

You're getting into a circular reasoning argument here. There is no evidence of voter fraud because they would keep all the real evidence secret. When will we see anything?

How do you feel about the Dominion claims? How about the 138,000 votes in Michigan?

[DonaldD]

So...

• Fraud is widespread, and so prevalent it could possibly have changed the result in at least 3 separate states.
• Unlike all other crimes, true fraud will be kept from the public until people have been convicted.  These will be prosecuted, presumably, in the famous in camera courts that are widespread throughout the country, where the very existence of the charges and defendants are kept secret from the public, the press, government representatives, etc, until the guilty have been duly convicted... as compared to un-true (not-true? false?) fraud charges, which will be prosecuted in public.
• Because the extent of true fraud is unknowable (due to it being kept secret) we must assume that the fraud exists and is sufficient to have overturned the results.
• Trump won the election.

[Ouija Nightmare]

Y-22,

“Seriously? You must have exactly the same opinion as the president and his son's to each individual claim of voter fraud they make?”

Individual fraud will not be made public, especially if uncovered by an attorney, without prosecution and conviction. On that I am certain their opinion matches mine.

Why won't voter fraud be made public? Why would a crime be kept secret until the prosecution and conviction of the perpetrator?

You're getting into a circular reasoning argument here. There is no evidence of voter fraud because they would keep all the real evidence secret. When will we see anything?

How do you feel about the Dominion claims? How about the 138,000 votes in Michigan?

What’s more remarkable is the same people who are willing to take the allegations of mass fraud purely on faith will argue zealously that voter suppression isn’t real despite all of the evidence to the contrary.

The GOP has become a religion.

[noel c.]

Aris,

“Yours, noel, is exactly the monomaniacal racist obsession, plus the dishonest failure to hear anything that the other person is saying that I fully expect from a Trump supporter.“

And alleged “racist” obsession between Greeks and Turks, or Turks and Iranians? You are being moronic. There is a shared genetic origin between the latter two, and the Hellenes made a significant contribution to Turkish ancestry prior to the arrival of the Selijuks. Racial makeup is secondary in any case if we are looking at ethnicity, which is where issues underlying conflict are found.

“From your fake pretense to supposedly care about what the Greek-Turkey conflict is about... “

There was nothing “fake” about my question, and your explanation remains superficial. You are basically saying that there is conflict, because there is conflict. That does not really tell me anything.

“... to deliberately trying to twist it that it's about immigrants and a supposed cultural conflict, even when I'm telling you it's not... “

You stated; “You could inflate this count by listing incidental issues like Greece accusing Turkey weaponising the movement of refugees towards Greece... “

These refugees are Syrian, correct? Some of these Syrians were recruited, and trained, by the Turks as “mercenaries“, correct? How is that “twisting” what you said?

“... because that's just what your particular brand of Trumpist evil demands.”

 

“... Oh, man, Syrian jihadists! What would you do without Syrian jihadists. Well, Greece and Turkey would still be fighting, since Syrian jihadists would not even be a footnote in a 100-page volume about the Greece-Turkey conflict... “

You made quite a production out of the absence of a “single“ terrorist attack in Greece. What you meant by Turkey “weaponizing” refugees might be interesting, but it definitely would have added to the discussion if you had informed me that Greece functions as a safe training, propaganda, and terrorist gateway into Europe. You brought up the religious aspect of ethnic conflict, not me.

“... but you don't care about that. You'll focus on ‘Syrian jihadists’, because that's what your prejudice demands.“

Pull your head out. What your comments “demand” is an explanation of Turkish motivations behind the refugee “weaponization”.

“Your comparisons between Turkey and Persia (please do include the Trojans too next time) are still absurd, whether you try to put it in cultural, ethnic or racial terms.”

Again, what “terms”, other than ethnicity go to root causes?

“If you were both sane and honest you could have tried geography instead, and seen why a sea-based military power makes sense to hold power in the islands and hellenic peninsula, while a land-based military power makes sense to hold power in Anatolia itself“

That identifies a preferred modality of conflict, but not a cause. England’s navy was very effective against Napoleon, but the Anglo-Franco conflict was not an issue over sea power vs. a land power. It was about a difference in ethnic priorities.

“...  - but you wouldn't do that, because that wouldn't allow you to be *censored*ty towards people based on their ancestry, which is your endgoal here, not achieving actual understanding”

So, it it Greek, or Turkish, “ancestry” that I am out to disparage? This exchange has expanded my understanding, just not in the expected area.

[NobleHunter]

noel, you do understand there is no continuity between the Greek/Persian conflicts and the Greek/Turkey right? Like, not even on the Greek side? It's different people with different religions from different polities fighting for different reasons. That it occupies the same geographical space is because people have lived there for a long time.

Ethnic priorities? We don't have time to unpack all that but it is spectacularly wrong. For one thing, British is not an ethnicity.