Election Results

[Aris Katsaris]

it definitely would have added to the discussion if you had informed me that Greece functions as a safe training, propaganda, and terrorist gateway into Europe.

The article you yourself link says there's no islamist radicalization happening in Greece. Future terrorists had travelled through it, sure. The same way I've travelled through Switzerland when taking a flight to the UK and back. Doesn't actually mean anything.

You "translate" this into how supposedly Greece functions as a "safe training, propaganda, and terrorist gateway into Europe." Because... um, reasons. No evidence that training is taking place here. No evidence that islamist propaganda is taking place here (there's lts of christianist far-right propaganda, of course). But "terrorist gateway", because um, we have airports I guess, and people use airplanes when travelling from country to country. Sure.

In the meantime you of course ignore the actual crime of Greece, how it provided a safe harbour and training and propaganda of far-right Christian terrorists and mass-murderers who contributed to the genocide in Srebenica against muslims. Which I'd mentioned already, and I'd informed you of it already, but you didn't give a *censored* about that one, you instead argued that I didn't inform you of fictional non-existent islamist training, whatever?

Even if I didn't have memory of your past tactics, would I need any other reason than the one you've just provided, to believe you an evil liar?

You're not trying to convince, you're trying to blatantly misinform people too lazy to actually check out what your link is saying.

You're a habitual liar, trying to spread bigotry with every single lie -- same way that Trump is a habitual liar trying to spread bigotry with every lie.

Once again I'm telling you: If you're even pretending to be honest, you ought be much more worried about Christian terrorists in Greece. You know, those ones who actually *censored*ing exist.

And btw your understanding of the Anglo-French conflict is just as prejudiced and nonsensical as of the Greek-Turkish conflict.

[noel c.]

NH,

“noel, you do understand there is no continuity between the Greek/Persian conflicts and the Greek/Turkey right?”

Are you making the point that a 2,500 year separation in time marks a difference in the specific “war”. Yes, I realize that.

“Like, not even on the Greek side?”

Are you speaking racially now?

“It's different people with different religions from different polities fighting for different reasons.“

- You are saying that the racial makeup is different, partially.
- You are saying that Darius was not moslem, check.
- Different Political structures, partially.
- Different reasons, that begs the question.

“That it occupies the same geographical space is because people have lived there for a long time.”

No, that people have lived there for a long time is what permits ethnic continuity.

“Ethnic priorities? We don't have time to unpack all that but it is spectacularly wrong. For one thing, British is not an ethnicity.“

The English ruling dynasty called their nation Britain. If I said “English”, would that simplify things for you?

[yossarian22c]

Certification dates are approaching:
Georgia - 11/20/2020
Michigan - 11/23/2020
Nevada - 12/01/2020
North Carolina - 11/24/2020
Pennsylvania - 11/23/2020
Wisconsin - 12/01/2020

So about a week or less left for lawsuits to change things in Georgia, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. None of Trump's lawsuits have changed anything yet. Most have already been thrown out of court. For the faithful do you think he's just saving the really good ones for the end. If you think that's the case, I'm sure Trump is still taking donations for his private investigators in Hawaii that are about to show that Obama wasn't born there.

[NobleHunter]

NH,

“noel, you do understand there is no continuity between the Greek/Persian conflicts and the Greek/Turkey right?”

Are you making the point that a 2,500 year separation in time marks a difference in the specific “war”. Yes, I realize that.

I meant you can't just declare a connection between the two conflicts simply because the borders run on a similar east/west division. To argue that a set of conflicts share common historical roots, you need to show historical continuity between them. Like the conflicts between the English and the French between the 11th and 19th centuries. One could argue that each evolution in the antagonism has its seeds in the previous conflict. There's continuity there even though the Napoleonic wars entirely different from the wars of medieval dynasts.

“It's different people with different religions from different polities fighting for different reasons.“

- You are saying that the racial makeup is different, partially.
- You are saying that Darius was not moslem, check.
- Different Political structures, partially.
- Different reasons, that begs the question.

I said polities not political structures, though those are completely different as well, since we're talking about 19th-20th century nation states and not Greek poleis or Imperial monarchies. I can also guarantee that Darius et al. didn't invade Greece to because of EEZ or  air space claims or Cyprus. Nor is Turkey flexing its muscles at Greece because they aspire to be a universal state (iRRC Persian ideology correctly).

The English ruling dynasty called their nation Britain. If I said “English”, would that simplify things for you?

The dynasty is question wasn't even English. Nor is British equivalent to English. 

[msquared]

And Trump's team just admitted that their suit in PA about there not being Republican observers in the counting rooms was a fraud.

https://news.yahoo.com/trump-campaign-drops-claim-gop-235348122.html

[DonaldD]

The Republican Secretary of State for Georgia, Brad Raffensberger, has told the Washington Post that Lindsey Graham, among other Republicans, pressured him to throw away legal ballots. 

Is this the only state where Lindsey Graham pressured authorities to exclude Democratic votes?  What about North Carolina? Lions and tigers and bears - oh my!

There is now literally more evidence of fraud by Republicans than Democrats during this election.

I await the calls for an investigation.  (no, not really)

[TheDrake]

In Pennsylvania, a lawyer for the Trump campaign admitted that the team had a "nonzero number of people" observing vote counting.

That's my favorite phrase ever.

[yossarian22c]

The Republican Secretary of State for Georgia, Brad Raffensberger, has told the Washington Post that Lindsey Graham, among other Republicans, pressured him to throw away legal ballots. 

Is this the only state where Lindsey Graham pressured authorities to exclude Democratic votes?  What about North Carolina? Lions and tigers and bears - oh my!

There is now literally more evidence of fraud by Republicans than Democrats during this election.

I await the calls for an investigation.  (no, not really)

Maybe Trump will pardon him on his way out the door. Along with the pardons for himself and his family.

[DonaldD]

When your ally, who you thought was a lawful good paladine, turns out to have been a chaotic neutral barbarian all along: Macron urges Europe to 'build our independence' from US

But more seriously - the damage Trump has done over the past 4 years is not going to be addressed and forgotten in the next 4 years, or 8 or 12, no matter who the leader the country is.  The whole system of government has been called into question as being unreliable.

[TheDeamon]

When your ally, who you thought was a lawful good paladine, turns out to have been a chaotic neutral barbarian all along: Macron urges Europe to 'build our independence' from US

I don't see the problem? I wasn't a fan of the idea that European nations were convinced of America's intend to their nation for them to the last American GI. They should be fighting their own defensive wars, thank you very much.

A Mutual Defense Treaty Organization is useless if your allies are incapable of aiding in your defense without your help, it's even worse when a significant portion of their defense plan consists of "your guys come and help us."

NATO has been a very lopsided organization pretty much from the start, but that was mostly okay at the time, as all they needed to do was slow down the Soviet advance through Europe long enough for the US to muster and deploy its forces to the European continent before things became so bad they'd need to stage another D-Day style invasion to regain a foothold.

Post-Soviet Russia is in no position to "sweep the board" against even the more anemic NATO forces in Europe before the US could get a response in place.

It's arguable that Russia could do that even without NATO being a factor at this point.

The United States at present has no reason to fear a 4th Reich-style situation on the European Continent emerging anytime in the next generation or so, and even fewer reasons to believe they'd be unable to tackle the problem through bi-lateral and multi-lateral means "before things get really bad."

And Macron isn't far from the mark. The United States at present maintains its best military relations with nations that have Expeditionary Warfare capabilities, which unironically also includes France. But that list is rather short, the UK, France, Australia, Japan(yes, their "self-defense force" can power project), and a developing American relationship with India. With Japan, Australia, India, and the US looking to potentially formalize something not much unlike NATO in order to address China.

But the promise of Americans "eventually" turning up to help doesn't help Macron defend France from Russia or anybody else that may be waiting in the wings. They need the nations to their east to be capable of keeping the fighting outside of France long enough for their own response, as well as the British and American forces to turn up and counter whatever may happen.

Funny how the Americans pulling more troops out of Germany suddenly has France talking about how other NATO members need to bolster their own respective defenses.

[TheDrake]

Except mutual defense is not the only part of nato, it's also about being able to project power. Including the middle east and northern Africa. I suspect that we've actually got a lot more value than those other countries, and the us was the only nation to have to invoke the mutual defense.

[TheDeamon]

Except mutual defense is not the only part of nato, it's also about being able to project power. Including the middle east and northern Africa. I suspect that we've actually got a lot more value than those other countries, and the us was the only nation to have to invoke the mutual defense.

After the fall of the Soviet Union, the only thing that kept us engaged in the Middle East was the United States needed to protect the international oil markets.

Thanks to fracking, as of 2017, we no longer need to care about what the international energy market does.

Keeping Northern Africa stable was just an extension of keeping our NATO allies happy so we could project power into the Middle East... But as the United States no longer has need of the Middle East...

[Wayward Son]

Thanks to fracking, as of 2017, we no longer need to care about what the international energy market does.

Except, from what I've read, all oil is not the same.  The light oil that comes from the Middle East (primarily) is better and cheaper to use to make gasoline than what usually comes out of our fracking wells.  So unless you're expecting the U.S economy to go all renewable in the near future (something Trump has been trying his best to prevent these last 4 years), we will still need to be involved in the Middle East for the foreseeable future.

[Aris Katsaris]

Post-Soviet Russia is in no position to "sweep the board" against even the more anemic NATO forces in Europe before the US could get a response in place.

Russia could invade and occupy the Baltics easily, if they were left to their own defenses. Probably the entirety of Poland too.

And under Trump, well, I considered it highly doubtable that Trump would do a military response at all to such an action by Russia, before a new status quo was in place, and it became too difficult to reverse it.

[TheDeamon]

Except, from what I've read, all oil is not the same.  The light oil that comes from the Middle East (primarily) is better and cheaper to use to make gasoline than what usually comes out of our fracking wells.  So unless you're expecting the U.S economy to go all renewable in the near future (something Trump has been trying his best to prevent these last 4 years), we will still need to be involved in the Middle East for the foreseeable future.

Not quite, our refineries were configured to use the heavy crude oil because prior to the shale oil, that was believed to be "the future" in terms of available oil reserves(and heavy crude was the most available option on the market).

The light "sweet crude" being produced from Shale is actually the preferred input for refinement, more of it ends up being diesel or gasoline and fewer byproducts. It's actually "cleaner" in a number of ways. Our refiners simply haven't completed switching over to using it just yet.

Although on the edges, there are some certain other things they can do when they mix heavy crude with light crude which makes that option somewhat desirable(good news for Alberta--except for the offered price) but not a deal breaker if they must do without.

[TheDrake]

What a cynical and transactional view of geopolitics. The only reason to be involved in the middle east is oil?

[DonaldD]

Trump pulled out of TPP, and now China gains influence at the expense of the USA

[TheDeamon]

What a cynical and transactional view of geopolitics. The only reason to be involved in the middle east is oil?

Well, there is Israel as well, but given the US and Europe alike couldn't be bothered to give a crap about Rwanda back in the 1990's, or the goings on in Mynmar, for example. I think it is reasonably safe to say that unless you're literally on NATO's doorstep (North Africa, the Balkans) or have "an economic interest" with major NATO powers.. They won't do much more than file a protest at the UN.

And THAT isn't even a uniquely American thing either, Europe is guilty of that too.

Oil wasn't "the only reason" to get involved, but it was the one the made those other reasons "significant enough" to warrant bothering to do something about it.

The United States wouldn't be thrilled to see oil production capabilities under the control of a group like ISIS happen again either, and might intervene if something like that crops up again. But beyond that? "America's National interests" no longer involve the Middle East in any meaningful way except as it relates to ongoing "War on terror" which is being wound down as well. So in that regard, the middle east might as well be Botswana at this point.

And if you think a Biden presidency is going to stop America's withdrawal from Europe, it won't. He might slow it down, but he isn't going to stop it. America has lost the appetite for war, so while he probably will start "a police action" or three during his term, the United States is bringing its toys home. The world's been screaming at them to go away for decades now. America heard the request, and they're granting that wish. The rest of the world best prepare for a return to the Imperial economic model of the times before WW2.

The United States is done being the world's police force... at least for now.

[TheDeamon]

Trump pulled out of TPP, and now China gains influence at the expense of the USA

Not party to the deal: The United States, Canada, Mexico... Or anybody in South America. Also missing: India

And depending on what China does, the deal may not last very long. The US has trade deals where it suits its national interests, the TPP wasn't in the interests of anyone in the United States except Wall Street, and even that is questionable.

Besides which, why does the US need to be in the front row of any particular rat race?

[Wayward Son]

The United States is done being the world's police force... at least for now.

I think we'll figure out pretty quickly that it's better to be the world's police force than it is being it's maid, and having to mop up after everyone else's mess.

Besides, who do you think will become the world's police force if we step aside?

[TheDeamon]

The United States is done being the world's police force... at least for now.

I think we'll figure out pretty quickly that it's better to be the world's police force than it is being it's maid, and having to mop up after everyone else's mess.

Besides, who do you think will become the world's police force if we step aside?

China attempting it would be hilarious at this stage in the game. In reality, from a geopolitics side of things, the United States going into a (comparatively) "rapid withdrawal" from the global stage probably helps North America and any other nation on America's "short list"(of nations they'll help protect) in general far more than it hurts in just about every meaningful way.

It'd throw China's economy into total chaos, as nobody else can protect their maritime trade. Which would pretty much be mission accomplished without ever needing to fire a shot.

[wmLambert]

Michigan just announced the numbers of votes is not correct, s it will probably go to the Republican lawmakers to pick the electors.

[msquared]

Where did you hear that? Brietbart?   OAN?  Parler?

[msquared]

But Trump did just fire his Homeland Security cyber chief who had the audacity to say the election was fair.  He lost fair and square so heads must roll.

[msquared]

Nothing on Fox either at least at 8:20PM.  You think that would be headline news.

[yossarian22c]

Wayne county republicans refused to certify the election count because about half of precincts had vote totals off by between 1 and 4 votes! Between 1 and 4 votes off, its almost like someone made a clerical error.

[DonaldD]

This is just - well, make up your own mind.  One of the two Republicans who have refused to certify the Wayne County results is William Hartman:

This is what Hartmann posted on Facebook 10 days ago

William Hartmann
_{November 7 at 6:01 PM} 
 
I'm reading the news on how great things are now that Biden and Harris are in as declared by the MSM. What will happen if it doesn't happen once the official results are tallied? I wouldn't sell the farm yet.

And to get a feel for his racism, you can still find all of these images on that same Facebook page.

[TheDeamon]

What a cynical and transactional view of geopolitics. The only reason to be involved in the middle east is oil?

The "other side" of this coin, as I'm busy "consuming" some stuff elsewhere that becomes relevant.

America didn't seek superpower/"imperial" influence. So in a lot of ways, news press about "The United States is losing influence" is actually pretty odd. Does the want the United States to be an "Imperial Power" or do they not want us to be one? I thought they were wanting the UN to run things anyway?

But in the scope of "imperial interests" in regard to the interests of the United States pre-WW2, and immediately after it:

In the 1930's the United States had no meaningful interest in Europe(to the point of being openly antagonistic towards Europe), Africa, or much of Asia outside of East Asia. The United States is likely to revert to that except as it pertains to the United Kingdom. Beyond that? We'll likely keep an eye out for our former colonial possession in the form of the Philippines, and our quasi-protectorates in the form of Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan. Which isn't to mention our other possessions such as Guam, the Aleutian Islands, and the various other American holdings in Micronesia. As well as our close ally in the region in the form of Australia, in addition to the anglosphere ally of New Zealand. The US is "invested" in the West Pacific, the US has no real dog in the hunt as it relates to Europe except possibly where the UK comes under direct threat.

Europe is the one who made NATO not worth America's time, so America will be very likely to leave if the members don't step up to the plate. We've been making noises about departure for 20 years now, Trump put them on notice, Biden may grant them a reprieve, but if they've slacked off by the time another Republican Administration enters office, NATO will probably come to an abrupt end.

Without NATO as an American concern, the rest of Europe and Middle East, as well as Africa can "get lost," for all practical purposes, we'll trade with them, we may do a number of other things with them as well, but they're not an ongoing concern for America at this stage. Europe should be able to take care of itself. They like to talk about how smart they are, they should be able to figure out how to make things work without the US needing to be there to keep them glued together.

South America continues to "enjoy" that awkward position of the legacy of the Monroe Doctrine knowing that the United States is not going to tolerate a power from Eurasia establishing a substantial presence in their neighborhood.

[DonaldD]

And, in a reversal of their earlier decision, the Wayne County results have now been certified.

[Aris Katsaris]

Michigan just announced the numbers of votes is not correct, s it will probably go to the Republican lawmakers to pick the electors.

And you people wonder why I compare Trumpists to flat-earthers.

[DonaldD]

Michigan just announced the numbers of votes is not correct, s it will probably go to the Republican lawmakers to pick the electors.

And you people wonder why I compare Trumpists to flat-earthers.

To be fair, that was a post by wmLambert.

[Grant]

Michigan just announced the numbers of votes is not correct, s it will probably go to the Republican lawmakers to pick the electors.

https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/joe-biden-won-michigan-elector-coup-not-going-happen-gop-leader-says

Republican lawmakers in Michigan legislature say that Biden is President-Elect and that certain people need to lay off the bong. 

Democrat Joe Biden is the president-elect, and while Michigan’s Republican-led Legislature is investigating the election, it will not award the state’s 16 electors to GOP President Donald Trump, Senate Majority Leader Mike Shirkey told Bridge on Tuesday.

Our swamp agents are everywhere.  You cannot stop Chase Manhattan. 

[msquared]

He may not be a flat earther but he is a young eather.

[msquared]

i wonder if any of the evangelical preachers are ever going to get on the bandwagon with Covid19 being sent by God to stop Trump's re-election?  I mean they use every other natural disaster as proof of God's punishing us for our evils.  Maybe the virus was God's punishing us for the evil of supporting Trump?

[DonaldD]

The Republican Secretary of State for Georgia, Brad Raffensberger, has told the Washington Post that Lindsey Graham, among other Republicans, pressured him to throw away legal ballots. 

It's now been two days... and I am shocked - shocked, I say! - that all those folks who have been so concerned about fraud in the electoral process have stayed silent in the face of evidence directly implicating a high ranking party member in an attempt to manipulate vote counts in 3 separate states.

Again, I am shocked they are not strongly advocating for an investigation to be opened.

[msquared]

Donald

Should I be hearing that statement in Claud Rain's voice?

[yossarian22c]

i wonder if any of the evangelical preachers are ever going to get on the bandwagon with Covid19 being sent by God to stop Trump's re-election?  I mean they use every other natural disaster as proof of God's punishing us for our evils.  Maybe the virus was God's punishing us for the evil of supporting Trump?

Clearly it was punishment for our future failure to reelect Trump  .

[DonaldD]

Donald

Should I be hearing that statement in Claud Rain's voice?

Man, you are so dating ourselves...

[DonaldD]

And, in a reversal of their earlier decision, the Wayne County results have now been certified.

If anybody had any questions about just why the Wayne County certification decision was so quickly reversed, listen to this fellow's analysis of how Monica S Palmer and William Hartmann, the two GOP members of the Wayne county board of canvassers responsible for the decision not to certify the results, were willing to disenfranchise 75% black Detroit while giving a pass to "95% white" Livonia, which had bigger variances than did Detroit.

Taken together with Hartmann's racist Facebook posts, this was a particularly bad look for Republicans.  One wonders whether Monica Palmer and William Hartmann came to this decision on their own, or whether someone with a broader view of how Republicans were about to be dragged across the whole country as bigots and racists had a quick sit-down with them...

For pure entertainment value, Monica S Palmer's eyes at the end of the video clip are priceless.

[cherrypoptart]

Apparently some Republicans may be intent on proving beyond any doubt that there really is massive voter fraud by committing it themselves.

[msquared]

I have to correct myself.  I have been saying that the Trump team has won 1 or 2 of their court cases, in particular the one in PA about how far observers could be from vote counters.  In a 5-2 decision the PA SC overturned that ruling saying since there are no specific guidelines for how far the observers had to be, the election committee was within it's rights to determine a safe distance based on health guide lines. Even the 2 Republican justices who dissented agreed that the throwing out of all of ballots would be "misguided" and disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of voters over a small procedural error.

I wonder if those Republican judges got the memo about voter suppression being the tool of choice.

[NobleHunter]

Worth nothing that the dissent wasn't "we would find in favor of Trump," it was "why the *censored* are we even issuing a decision on this case?" Which means Trump's lawyer's arguments were spectacularly bad.

[rightleft22]

Worth nothing that the dissent wasn't "we would find in favor of Trump," it was "why the *censored* are we even issuing a decision on this case?" Which means Trump's lawyer's arguments were spectacularly bad.

I suspect that winning the cases isn't the primary reason for filing the the cases.
I'm anticipating a future argument that the number of cases filed proves something and that the system is against Trump
I also suspect that a number of 'Faithless elector's' will use that argument to justify being 'faithless'

[msquared]

I think Rudy G has been reported to say he is trying to fail up, so that he can get it to the US SC where Trump ally ACB is ready and set to support her boss. The President.

[msquared]

To me it feels like Trump is trying to play a golf game with the election.  Does not like a shot?  Take a mulligan? Hit it in the rough? Just tap it out with your foot while no one is watching.  36 foot putt down hill with slopes?  That's a gimme.

Scoring in golf is supposed to be the honor system, so that is probably why Trump plays golf, since he can cheat at it.  He is a well known golf cheat.

[msquared]

So last week Tucker Carlson had a piece about dead people voting in GA.  He had 4 or 5 examples as proof.  However, 2 of them are still alive, 1 is the widow of they guy he said voted and if he looked closer she uses his name as a Mrs James and that is who voted, Mrs James instead of Mr James.  The other person was someone with the same name but different address, birth date, etc.   So he batted 0  for 4 when just a little checking was done by locals. But he still claims there was a massive number of dead people, all voting for Biden.  But no more specifics, since it looks like he learned a lesson. When you supply details people can check them out. And find you are lying.

[TheDrake]

But no more specifics, since it looks like he learned a lesson. When you supply details people can check them out. And find you are lying.

Or stupid. Or gullible. I tend to think that gullible is the right answer. They get wind of something from Project Veritas and just start waving it around without ever doing diligence. Maybe gullible with a side of negligence.

There's somebody with the same name as me in my county, but we've got different addresses and birthdays. I wonder if someone will say A HA! See, that guy voted twice!

In this case, Carlson's source was, well, the Trump campaign. FYI, while Carlson apologized for his negligence, no correction is apparent on Trump's campaign page.

[msquared]

Note, he apologized for one of the claims. Not all 4.

[TheDrake]

Here's some real fraud

Mayoral election, submitting more than 8000 ballot applications. They caught it and these guys are going to prison soon. None of the requested ballots were used, apparently.

[msquared]

I would call it attempted fraud since the votes were never counted. And the system worked.