Author Topic: Election Results  (Read 269726 times)

yossarian22c

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #400 on: November 10, 2020, 10:22:55 PM »
- Ballot harvesting (Alaska, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, District of Columbia, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Minnesota, Montana, Nebraska, New Jersey, North Dakota, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Texas, Virginia and West Virginia all statutorily condone the practice, but from a practical perspective, any State that allows unmonitored ballot drop-boxes is a harvester-friendly State.)

Thanks for your reply with actual issues.

First note these aren't "security waivers" but just election laws in the given states you don't like.

As to ballot harvesting I'm not a particular fan and would be happy to see it eliminated. But the fraud associated with harvesting has more to do with voter suppression than voter fraud. Its a lot easier to canvas ballots from a neighborhood with a known political persuasion then Fahrenheit 451 them than to change votes.

I see no difference between drop boxes and any other method of returning a mail in ballot.

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- Unsolicited ballot applications (Eleven States, including Minnesota, Wisconsin, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, Maryland, Wyoming, South Dakota, Illinois, Nebraska, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Delaware, )

Not something that worries me much at all especially during a pandemic. Systematic fraud on the order than can affect thousands of ballots is extremely unlikely. This is reasonably easy to detect and prosecute as well when the real voter shows up to vote or change their address the police have the address of the person who requested the fraudulent ballot.

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- Unsolicited ballots (Vermont, Nevada, District of Columbia, California, New Jersey, Colorado, Hawaii, Utah, Washington, Oregon)

I'm not a huge fan of complete vote by mail elections. With good data management systems and public education I'm not too worried about wide spread systematic fraud arising from them. However the races where mail in voting can be shady is local elections. Small time operatives could probably run scams to buy votes or ballots. A corrupt sheriff could pressure people to vote for him. Basically just concerns about secrecy being violated in elections. But I can't see any large scale fraud or violations staying hidden or secret for long. But the races without a lot of interest and media attention are less secure.

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- Obstructed poll observer accommodation; Pennsylvania, and Michigan, due to local determination authority. I see this is as a blatant violation of civil rights. States are entitled to legislate rules for partisan observers, but not if there will be meaningfully effective partisan observers. (Four States have mandatory Federal election observers; Alaska, California, Louisiana, and New York, which are linked to racial civil rights enforcement. This number is down from thirteen a few years ago.)

I think this is largely a nothing burger cooked up by Trump to inflame tensions. Many of the operations live streamed the process. Its one thing to try to sneak something past an observer but to put up cameras and live stream your shady activity that takes some nerve.

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- Unpurged voter rolls (all states are required to “maintain” voter rolls, but only Wisconsin, Ohio, Kentucky and Georgia made the news for doing it. Even these States do not clear the rolls every election cycle.)

All states maintain voter rolls and remove voters when they get information that they move, die, or otherwise become ineligible to vote. States that make news for purging voter rolls usually are simply removing voters for not having participated in one or more of the previous elections. Depending on the length of inactivity time purging voter rolls can be more about suppressing voters rather than maintaining accurate data.

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- Lack of voter identification requirements (California, Illinois, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Nebraska, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Vermont, Virginia, Wyoming, and Washington, D.C.)

Again a made up Republican boogey man. People running around all day voting at different polling locations as multiple people is just not a big threat to an election.


My preferences for voting are as follows.
To make voting easy we should have:
1) Nation wide month long early voting.
2) Election day is a national holiday.
3) Mobile early voting locations that can go to places like retirement homes where people may be less able to travel.

To make voting secure we should have:
1) Hand marked paper ballots.
2) Votes should be counted by scanning machines at the polling place.
3) All votes should then be rescanned by a separate air gapped system as an automatic recount of every race.
4) Risk limiting audits on individual machines.
5) Voting in person should be the norm. (Pandemic is an exception)
6) Any and all voting software should be opensource.


TheDeamon

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #401 on: November 10, 2020, 10:31:48 PM »
As to ballot harvesting I'm not a particular fan and would be happy to see it eliminated. But the fraud associated with harvesting has more to do with voter suppression than voter fraud. Its a lot easier to canvas ballots from a neighborhood with a known political persuasion then Fahrenheit 451 them than to change votes.

If they're ballot harvesting, nothing is blocking them from being present while the person votes and bullying them into voting "the correct way" before sealing the ballot away in the envelop.

The 90 year old grandparent voting in an agreed upon balloting location with proper oversight is one thing. A bunch of 90 year olds having a partisan activist coming in to "help them vote" on the other hand? Huge red flag.

Or getting younger people who are mentally unfit to care for themselves registered to vote and "following up" by "helping them vote" later on. Perfectly legal in states that allow ballot harvesting, very ethically dubious.

noel c.

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #402 on: November 11, 2020, 12:36:00 AM »
Msquared,

“You say installed but not elected?”

Yes, I did.

“So tens of thousands of voters in just a few states were all able to bypass the security that was in place to keep this from happening.”

What security?

“And what evidence has been presented so far?  None.”

What investigation has there been so far?

“What is your cut off for calling it wide spread?  Will you agree it is not widespread if the number of fraudulent ballots in a state of 5 million is under 100?  Under 1,000?“

You are already negotiating the cutoff number for “widespread” fraud? What kind of confidence in your team is that?

“If you think they will not find enough fraudulent ballots to over ride the results we have now, why not concede the race and get on with the transition?“

I don’t want undermining of the voting process to matter only when it is successful, it will inevitably bleed into other elections where small percentages are more frequently making a big difference.

“Maybe it is because Trump really does not care about election security but about chaos.”

Right, Trump is enamored of chaos. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that Trump believes he can win this?

DonaldD

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #403 on: November 11, 2020, 04:18:50 AM »
I have seen no evidence that Republicans are not committing vote fraud at levels significant enough to sway elections - certainly no evidence that they are not doing so at levels dwarfing anything done by Democrats.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #404 on: November 11, 2020, 05:31:42 AM »
Is it just me or does it seem like people are expecting evidence extremely quickly, like entirely too quickly?

Investigations into crimes take time.

I would ask why do people want to rush these important investigations but I think the question answers itself.

DonaldD

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #405 on: November 11, 2020, 06:36:18 AM »
If there is no evidence, why should there be an investigation at all?  Why is it so important during this election cycle, as opposed to every other election cycle, to open investigations into things for which there is no evidence?

I think these questions answer themselves.

Note that this is different from hearing cases brought before courts (for which the Trump campaign, as of last count, is zero for twelve) or for requesting recounts, which is pretty standard.


msquared

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #406 on: November 11, 2020, 08:45:44 AM »
noel

You sure know how to avoid answering a direct question.  I am not negotiating I am trying to get a better understanding of what you will accept.  I am confident that there is so little fraud as to be unmeasurable.  Trump, and his supporters, are the ones who have made allegations of massive fraud. Remember, they have to supply evidence and prove that. So for they have not been able to do any of that. It is all bluster.

Will you ever say Biden was elected? Ever admit Trump lost fair and square?  Or will you always think that this election was stolen.

I mean I will say that if Trump and his people supplied evidence of massive on the scale large enough to flip the states in question, I would say Biden stole the election and he should be removed from office.

There, does that satisfy you?  If you can prove the allegations, Biden should go and so should Harris (she would be tainted for the same reason).

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #407 on: November 11, 2020, 09:03:12 AM »
Sometimes evidence is carefully concealed, even destroyed. It takes time to get to the bottom of things.

If it turns out there is no real there there and it's a big nothing burger, then going through the motions the way Trump is doing it is the best thing that could ever happen for helping most people accept the results of the election, something the Democrats never did for Trump himself by the way.

If we don't have a good and thorough investigation and take some time with it to get it right then people will see that and they will always have doubts. It's hard to find what you didn't look for very hard especially when it's been cleverly hidden by clever rascals.

Of course some will just wonder if the rascals weren't even more clever than the people trying to catch them but hopefully there won't be as many doubting Thomases as there would be with a cursory and perfunctory half-hearted and rushed investigation.

As an aside, I'm just watching Veep now and it's a lot better than I thought it would be. The intro captures the Harris campaign extraordinarily well, with her running for President with high hopes and then crashing and burning and acting like she's happy being Vice President. I liked The West Wing and House of Cards too but Veep seems to capture much of the essence of these political animals, maybe even better than the others. Julia really broke the Seinfeld curse there.

DonaldD

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #408 on: November 11, 2020, 09:07:42 AM »
If there is no evidence, why should there be an investigation at all?  Why is it so important during this election cycle, as opposed to every other preceding election cycle, to open investigations into things for which there is, as you admit, no evidence?

Since there is the possibility of evidence having been hidden or destroyed in all other election cycles, why is it suddenly so important? 

I think these questions answer themselves.

msquared

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #409 on: November 11, 2020, 09:12:15 AM »
And why only in the states that are in question?  Why not Texas and Florida and Ohio?  Maybe there was massive fraud on the part of Trump supporters in those states that we just have not looked for. I mean Trump even told them to vote twice.  I bet most of them did. I think we should invalidate all of the votes in those states until they can prove every single ballot was legitimate. Otherwise Trump would rule under a cloud and we would not want that.

Grant

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #410 on: November 11, 2020, 09:24:35 AM »
Is it just me or does it seem like people are expecting evidence extremely quickly, like entirely too quickly?

Investigations into crimes take time.

I would ask why do people want to rush these important investigations but I think the question answers itself.

I remember hearing the same stuff during the Kavanaugh hearings.  I'll say the same thing now that I did then. 




"Infiltrate the dealers, find the suppliers."


You're on a deadline.  Results have to be certified and electors have to meet and the country has to move forward.  The vast majority of Americans believe that Biden won.  Every day that L'Orange Crotte doesn't concede burns down a little bit more of the Republican party.  So far the lawsuits have been going nowhere.  There has been no evidence presented to any judge to back up any allegations.  Nothing.  You can't run up to a judge and say "stop the count, they're cheating", and when the judge asks you "what makes you say that?", your reply is "we need to investigate further".  That dog won't hunt. 

Speaking of which.  Did Stacy Abrams ever concede the Georgia governor's race? 

msquared

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #411 on: November 11, 2020, 09:27:17 AM »
Grant

do you mean the GA governor race where there was proven fraud on the Republican side?

Grant

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #412 on: November 11, 2020, 09:48:25 AM »
do you mean the GA governor race where there was proven fraud on the Republican side?

What proven fraud?

msquared

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #413 on: November 11, 2020, 09:56:51 AM »
I thought there was some type of shenanigan's going on with that election.  Looking it up it was the Sec of State making calls on the election he was running in (conflict of interest). There were some lawsuits but eventually Abrams said that there was not enough disputed votes that the results would be changed.

Sounds familiar.

Grant

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #414 on: November 11, 2020, 10:31:24 AM »

Aris Katsaris

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #415 on: November 11, 2020, 10:34:18 AM »
Is it just me or does it seem like people are expecting evidence extremely quickly, like entirely too quickly?

Perhaps because Trump already claims it as a certainty that there was widespread fraud and that he won? Surely he must have evidence, and not just that but rather solid absolute proof to match his conviction?

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Investigations into crimes take time.

Yes, especially when there's no crime, then it *really* takes time to investigate the non-existent crime. It's like investigating Bigfoot. You'll just have to keep investigating until you find something, and if you find nothing, well, just keep investigating. Forever and ever.

yossarian22c

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #416 on: November 11, 2020, 10:35:21 AM »
do you mean the GA governor race where there was proven fraud on the Republican side?

What proven fraud?

No proven fraud but more irregularities than anything Trump has demonstrated.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/12/georgia-voting-states-elections-1162134

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The problem: Georgians cast nearly 4 million ballots on Election Day, but about 160,000 of them showed no vote cast in the lieutenant governor race, about 4.3 percent of ballots. To election experts, this so-called “undervote” rate — when a race is left blank — is evidence either that Georgia voters were unusually apathetic about their lieutenant governor, or that something went wrong.

It’s normal for 1 to 2 percent of voters to skip a race or races on a ballot, election experts say. But besides being more than double that normal rate, the number of uncast votes in the lieutenant governor race also exceeded Duncan’s margin of victory over Amico, which was just 123,172 votes.

The puzzling numbers call new attention to Georgia’s paperless, touchscreen voting machines, which drew lawsuits in 2017 from election-integrity groups that say the machines are not secure and want the state to switch to paper ballots that can be audited.

DonaldD

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #417 on: November 11, 2020, 10:37:15 AM »
There was no fraud (at least, nothing significant).

What there was, was your garden variety voter suppression, coincidentally overseen by one of the candidates who was at the time secretary of state.

It would be somewhat equivalent to the 2020 presidential election if a federal government agency, and not the states themselves, was responsible for registering voters and counting votes and also if Joe Biden was head of, and responsible for, that federal agency.

Can you imagine...?

kidv

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #418 on: November 11, 2020, 10:48:05 AM »
Georgia 2018:

The hard drives which maintained the election information were all wiped shortly after a lawsuit was filed, (maintained by GA secretary of state) (prior to the 2018 election)

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/georgia-election-server-wiped-after-suit-filed

edit: before the election instead of after
« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 10:51:00 AM by kidv »

DonaldD

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #419 on: November 11, 2020, 11:01:04 AM »
And this is why Trump is zero for twelve in court, and why all these calls for investigation ring so hollow (Goldstein is Trump's lawyer in the Pennsylvania suit)

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THE COURT: I understand.  I am asking you a specific question, and I am looking fora specific answer.  Are you claiming that there is any fraud in connection with these 592 disputed ballots?

MR. GOLDSTEIN: To my knowledge, at present, no.

THE COURT: Are you claiming that there is any undue or improper influence upon the elector with respect to these 592 ballots?

MR GOLDSTEIN: To my knowledge at present, no.

TheDeamon

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #420 on: November 11, 2020, 12:09:46 PM »
If there is no evidence, why should there be an investigation at all?  Why is it so important during this election cycle, as opposed to every other election cycle, to open investigations into things for which there is no evidence?

I think these questions answer themselves.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-37243190

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Too many voters
Watch the turnout figures ‒ they can be a big giveaway.

You never get a 98% or 99% turnout in an honest election. You just don't.

Voting is compulsory in Gabon, but it is not enforced; even in Australia where it is enforced, where you can vote by post or online and can be fined for not voting, turnout only reaches 90-95%.

All of the battleground states had more than 95% of registered voters turnout to vote, Nevada has broken 125% voter turnout. Of course, they're rationalizing this one by pointing out the Registered Voter numbers in most states lag far behind eligible voters and invoking same-day registration to hand-wave the issue away...

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A high turnout in specific areas
Even where the turnout is within the bounds of possibility, if the figure is wildly different from the turnout elsewhere, it serves as a warning.

Why would one particular area, or one individual polling station, have a 90% turnout, while most other areas register less than 70%?

Oh my. The BBC doesn't say?

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More votes than ballot papers issued
When the polls close, and before they open the boxes, election officials normally have to go through a complicated and rather tedious process known as the reconciliation of ballots.

After they have counted how many ballot papers they received in the morning, they then need to count how many are left, and how many ‒ if any ‒ were torn or otherwise spoiled and had to be put aside.

So about those unsolicited mail in ballots using voter rolls which have never been properly purged?

msquared

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #421 on: November 11, 2020, 12:14:42 PM »
So your evidence is an article about an African country 4 years ago?
Please provide the reference for the voter turn out in the battle ground states. I would like to check that.

Of course as you pointed out, states with same day registration could very easily have more people vote than were registered before the vote.

TheDeamon

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #422 on: November 11, 2020, 12:22:13 PM »
Will you ever say Biden was elected?

Once the Electoral college votes on December 14th, somebody will have been elected. In advance of that certified election election results, which the EC is supposed to honor make a decent stand in. But Certified election results haven't happened anywhere just yet, and certainly not enough for anyone to clear 270 EC votes on certified election results.

Projections say Biden is winning, current polling numbers indicate a Biden win--but again they're not certified.

In all reality a strong argument can be made that the election of the President isn't over until Congress ratifies the results, and that's in January.

If the EC and Congress say Biden is the next president, then he has won the election. Until then, there are some rather exceptional events happening in this election which do warrant further verification.

TheDrake

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #423 on: November 11, 2020, 12:30:54 PM »
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All of the battleground states had more than 95% of registered voters turnout to vote, Nevada has broken 125% voter turnout. Of course, they're rationalizing this one by pointing out the Registered Voter numbers in most states lag far behind eligible voters and invoking same-day registration to hand-wave the issue away...

Gonna have to give a reference for this. Are you comparing registered voters in 2018 to votes in 2020? That's stupid.

As Trump himself said (paraphrasing) I had the second highest popular vote in all time!

msquared

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #424 on: November 11, 2020, 12:33:51 PM »
No there are not really any exceptional events. there have been claims but no evidence what so ever presented.   Even the election watchers Trump brought in from out of the country say it was a clean election.

Fine until the EC meets and voted, he is not elected. Did you use that term when Trump ran the first time?   My guess is noel will continue to say Biden will be installed, implying a defect in Biden's election.

TheDrake

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #425 on: November 11, 2020, 12:37:18 PM »
My guess is noel will continue to say Biden will be installed, implying a defect in Biden's election.

If he can take time away from 8kun and QAnon.

TheDeamon

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #426 on: November 11, 2020, 02:53:31 PM »
Quote
All of the battleground states had more than 95% of registered voters turnout to vote, Nevada has broken 125% voter turnout. Of course, they're rationalizing this one by pointing out the Registered Voter numbers in most states lag far behind eligible voters and invoking same-day registration to hand-wave the issue away...

Gonna have to give a reference for this. Are you comparing registered voters in 2018 to votes in 2020? That's stupid.

As Trump himself said (paraphrasing) I had the second highest popular vote in all time!

Yeah, did more digging elsewhere, those numbers were largely coming from 2018 registered voter counts.

TheDeamon

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #427 on: November 11, 2020, 02:56:11 PM »
Fine until the EC meets and voted, he is not elected. Did you use that term when Trump ran the first time?   My guess is noel will continue to say Biden will be installed, implying a defect in Biden's election.

I'm unaware of any claim that the voting mechanics themselves were under challenge by Dems in 2016? They were complaining about Russian Interference resulting in voters voting for Trump. Different thing.

So election outcome projections were uncontested, as such there was no reason to wait for starting the transition process.

yossarian22c

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #428 on: November 11, 2020, 03:06:59 PM »
Fine until the EC meets and voted, he is not elected. Did you use that term when Trump ran the first time?   My guess is noel will continue to say Biden will be installed, implying a defect in Biden's election.

I'm unaware of any claim that the voting mechanics themselves were under challenge by Dems in 2016? They were complaining about Russian Interference resulting in voters voting for Trump. Different thing.

So election outcome projections were uncontested, as such there was no reason to wait for starting the transition process.

The vote counts in the key states were just as close or closer in 2016. Clinton just didn't throw a temper tantrum because she lost and accuse Trump of cheating.

TheDrake

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #429 on: November 11, 2020, 03:16:31 PM »
Fine until the EC meets and voted, he is not elected. Did you use that term when Trump ran the first time?   My guess is noel will continue to say Biden will be installed, implying a defect in Biden's election.

I'm unaware of any claim that the voting mechanics themselves were under challenge by Dems in 2016? They were complaining about Russian Interference resulting in voters voting for Trump. Different thing.

So election outcome projections were uncontested, as such there was no reason to wait for starting the transition process.

The vote counts in the key states were just as close or closer in 2016. Clinton just didn't throw a temper tantrum because she lost and accuse Trump of cheating.

She must be pretty pissed that Dems didn't take advantage of lax vote security to "install" her as President in 2016. At least she got a BOGO coupon to Comet Ping Pong.

TheDeamon

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #430 on: November 11, 2020, 03:17:15 PM »
Here's a fun prospect, but someone would have to find the right tools to see how Pennsylvania would turn out.

If the Penn legislature decided to apportion EC votes using the system Maine and Nebraska use, would Trump and Biden have an equal share, or would it hew one way or another?

If it favors Trump, they could go that route, but first they'd need Georgia and Arizona to flip in favor of Trump.

It if ties Trump/Biden(10 each), they'd still need to flip Georgia and Arizona, but it'd be a 269 EC vote tie, meaning the Republicans in the house get to decide the outcome.

noel c.

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #431 on: November 11, 2020, 03:44:30 PM »
Grant,

“I remember hearing the same stuff during the Kavanaugh hearings. I'll say the same thing now that I did then. Infiltrate the dealers, find the suppliers."

That is reasonably descriptive of what Trump is doing now. He is entitled to have his objections investigated, and litigated, just as Kavanaugh’s detractor had her public hearing.

“You're on a deadline. Results have to be certified and electors have to meet and the country has to move forward.”

I see no indication of foot-dragging by investigators.

“The vast majority of Americans believe that Biden won.  Every day that L'Orange Crotte doesn't concede burns down a little bit more of the Republican party.”

So, preservation of the Republican Party is your overriding concern? Interesting. I dare say that you are a minority within the party that you worry about. This election, and its aftermath, leave conservatives very well positioned for January 2021, November 2022, and November 2024. The intra-party fracturing, of which you are apparently representative, is so small as to be inconsequential.

We will hold the Senate, have gained seats in the House. Biden will not get the cabinet that he wants, nor will the “Green New Deal” see the light of day. The Supreme Court will not be packed, and only fifty stars will remain on Old Glory. Symmetrically rearranging fifty-two stars on a blue field, now there is a potential for national crisis.

Finally, election law has the best chance for overhaul now than at in any time in my memory as a result of COVID abuses. Issues such as.:

- Who decides election deadlines generally, or as we are now confronted with the issue in Pennsylvania, can the State Supreme Court usurp the constitutionally empowered legislature‘s authority in this matter?

- Do individual votes need threshold validation of voter identity?

- Is the State under obligation to issue properly vetted/requested ballots?

- Does ballot submission require safeguards curtailing undue influence?

“So far the lawsuits have been going nowhere. There has been no evidence presented to any judge to back up any allegations.  Nothing.  You can't run up to a judge and say ‘stop the count, they're cheating’,”

You can say: stop the count, a State Court has violated its constitution. The SCOTUS agreed to review the matter after the election. I think that decision was a mistake, but nothing stands in the way at this stage.

“... and when the judge asks you ‘what makes you say that?’, your reply is ‘we need to investigate further’. That dog won't hunt.“

“Infiltrate the dealers, find the suppliers.”

”Speaking of which.  Did Stacy Abrams ever concede the Georgia governor's race?” 

No, she expressly refused to concede, however; she did state that the “law allows no further viable remedy”. Trump is not there yet, and time remains for allowing the process to play out, irrespective of my expectations.

yossarian22c

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #432 on: November 11, 2020, 04:01:55 PM »
Here's a fun prospect, but someone would have to find the right tools to see how Pennsylvania would turn out.

If the Penn legislature decided to apportion EC votes using the system Maine and Nebraska use, would Trump and Biden have an equal share, or would it hew one way or another?

If it favors Trump, they could go that route, but first they'd need Georgia and Arizona to flip in favor of Trump.

It if ties Trump/Biden(10 each), they'd still need to flip Georgia and Arizona, but it'd be a 269 EC vote tie, meaning the Republicans in the house get to decide the outcome.

So a state legislature should change the apportionment of delegates after the election to favor Trump? I can't believe you guys are seriously proposing such ideas. Trump lost. Get over it. Republicans made up ground in the house, are likely holding the senate. Move on with divided government.

TheDrake

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #433 on: November 11, 2020, 04:56:43 PM »
Quote
only fifty stars will remain on Old Glory. Symmetrically rearranging fifty-two stars on a blue field, now there is a potential for national crisis.

I thought they only needed one star to go next to the hammer and sickle... And slightly more seriously, symmetrical arrangement isn't so elusive.

51 = 3x9 + 3x8
52 = 4x7 + 4x6

You can work out any number by factoring. 51 = 17x3, 52= 2x2x13.

17x3 = 3(8+9)
4x13 = 4(6+7)

noel c.

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #434 on: November 11, 2020, 05:07:24 PM »
Drake,

I considered the 4*7/6 configuration, but it still is jarringly unbalanced:

https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/8feqte/stars_of_us_flag_with_5170_states/

If D,C., and Puerto Rico want to play, we need one or two more states to make it work.

TheDrake

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #435 on: November 11, 2020, 05:09:29 PM »
Quote
In a statement, Tom Ridge, Michael Chertoff, Janet Napolitano and Jeh Johnson - who together have formed the group Citizens for a Strong Democracy - said Mr Trump's legal claims "cannot and must not prevent the transition process from beginning".

That's a little hyperbolic. GWB didn't get started until much later, plus we're still talking recounts, including a hand recount in GA.

TheDrake

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #436 on: November 11, 2020, 05:10:14 PM »
Drake,

I considered the 4*7/6 configuration, but it still is jarringly unbalanced:

https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/8feqte/stars_of_us_flag_with_5170_states/

If D,C., and Puerto Rico want to play, we need one or two more states to make it work.

ah, but it wouldn't be unbalanced at all if we did the sandwich configuration, 7, 7, 6, 6, 6, 6, 7, 7.

noel c.

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #437 on: November 11, 2020, 05:17:26 PM »
Drake,

“... ah, but it wouldn't be unbalanced at all if we did the sandwich configuration, 7, 7, 6, 6, 6, 6, 7, 7.”

Just ugly.

TheDeamon

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #438 on: November 11, 2020, 05:19:21 PM »
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In a statement, Tom Ridge, Michael Chertoff, Janet Napolitano and Jeh Johnson - who together have formed the group Citizens for a Strong Democracy - said Mr Trump's legal claims "cannot and must not prevent the transition process from beginning".

That's a little hyperbolic. GWB didn't get started until much later, plus we're still talking recounts, including a hand recount in GA.

Correct, he didn't start until after the SCotUS ruling in December.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #439 on: November 11, 2020, 05:37:08 PM »
Noel

"No, she expressly refused to concede, however; she did state that the “law allows no further viable remedy”. Trump is not there yet, and time remains for allowing the process to play out, irrespective of my expectations."

Perfect. Trump is only doing the exact same thing a Democrat did already and was lauded for. I see nothing wrong with it. I never complained about her refusal to concede. If she thinks things were hinky in the election, and people have already pointed out that there were some suspicious irregularities, then she did the right thing in refusing to concede but allowing the peaceful transfer of power anyway after all legal avenues had been explored and resulted in dead ends. Same for Trump. I see that as a perfectly acceptable result.

We can have a peaceful transition of power and Biden will be the duly elected President. There is no need for Trump to concede anything. And again, the Democrats never did. On the contrary, they impeached him for his "crime" of winning the election.

Also, we see reports in the media about how various organizations such as media outlets have "called the election for Biden". They can call whatever they want. It's irrelevant. There is a process in place and after it plays out then we will have our President. Until then, it's just people talking. Words are wind.

I agree with Deamon: "Once the Electoral college votes on December 14th, somebody will have been elected." That's who calls the election.

yossarian22c

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #440 on: November 11, 2020, 05:58:08 PM »
Perfect. Trump is only doing the exact same thing a Democrat did already and was lauded for. I see nothing wrong with it. I never complained about her refusal to concede. If she thinks things were hinky in the election, and people have already pointed out that there were some suspicious irregularities, then she did the right thing in refusing to concede but allowing the peaceful transfer of power anyway after all legal avenues had been explored and resulted in dead ends. Same for Trump. I see that as a perfectly acceptable result.

What hinky has gone on in this election? How are 5 or 6 states and all their election managers (democrats and republicans) all in on it?

Trump as a lame duck is cleaning house and appointing loyalist at the head of the defense department. The head of the GAO has refused to give Biden access to funds to make a transition smooth. Biden isn't receiving intelligence briefings. The secretary of state said we're transitioning into a second Trump term. Let's just say I'm concerned by his actions. As should the rest of the country. He repeatedly claims victory or massive fraud and provides bupkis for evidence. His words and actions have a great deal of potential to lead to violence.

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We can have a peaceful transition of power and Biden will be the duly elected President. There is no need for Trump to concede anything. And again, the Democrats never did. On the contrary, they impeached him for his "crime" of winning the election.

Let's hope the transition is still peaceful. Trump's inability to accept reality is scary.

Hilary conceded. The democrats impeached Trump for using the office of president to try to coerce a foreign government to dig up or manufacture dirt on Biden.

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Also, we see reports in the media about how various organizations such as media outlets have "called the election for Biden". They can call whatever they want. It's irrelevant. There is a process in place and after it plays out then we will have our President. Until then, it's just people talking. Words are wind.

I agree with Deamon: "Once the Electoral college votes on December 14th, somebody will have been elected." That's who calls the election.

And if Trump is still disputing the election after that? You have to see that its a bad precedent for elections to end this way when there is no evidence of wrong doing, particularly nothing on the scale that could change the outcome. I'm pretty sure we've already reached the point that despite no evidence ever surfacing of wide spread voter fraud we're going to be hearing about a stolen election for years. I think Trump will run again in 2024.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #441 on: November 11, 2020, 06:01:23 PM »
The President of Mexico gets it.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/were-not-colony-mexican-president-190206185.html

"We can't make any kind of recognition of a government that is not yet legally and legitimately constituted," he told a news conference. "It's not up to us, that's interventionism."

We have a process and we need to let it play out.

noel c.

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #442 on: November 11, 2020, 06:03:54 PM »
Cherry,

“We can have a peaceful transition of power and Biden will be the duly elected President. There is no need for Trump to concede anything. And again, the Democrats never did. On the contrary, they impeached him for his "crime" of winning the election.”

It was actually much worse than that. Unlike Trump, Barry corrupted the nation’s intelligence apparatus. Biden did/will not have to contend with pre-election, transitional, or post-inaugural spying on his organization. Nor will Biden be seeing an unsubstantiated “dossier” funded by the RNC, compiled by a foreign agent, employed as a predicate for a faux counter intelligence operation, and culminated in a sham impeachment.

Retaining the House will immunize him from “impeachment”, but not from the discredit attached to documentation disclosed by his “family business associates”. As for his call for cross-party/national unification and reconciliation; hear this Uncle Joe, WE ARE THE RESISTANCE.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 06:14:06 PM by noel c. »

TheDrake

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #443 on: November 11, 2020, 06:31:41 PM »
Biden did/will not have to contend with pre-election, transitional, or post-inaugural spying on his organization.

The Biden campaign and transition team probably won't be stupid enough to take random meetings with people closely associated with the CCP.

However, if you think Trump ISN'T trying to use the national security apparatus to spy on people he believes are stealing the election from him, people who are owned by China and the Ukraine, people who are bent on the destruction of America itself? Well, you're giving him more credit than he deserves. Would the professionals in those organizations go along with it? More than likely. I'll patiently wait until we find out that happened and you find some way to excuse it.

noel c.

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #444 on: November 11, 2020, 07:23:28 PM »
Drake,

“The Biden campaign and transition team probably won't be stupid enough to take random meetings with people closely associated with the CCP.“

Are you just confused? Joseph Mifsud is a Maltese academic, and Comey entrapment bait, with no connections to the CCP. Papadopoulos was a small player exploited under FISA to expand FBI surveillance requests. Or are you talking about General Flynn, who was fully entitled to talk with Sergey I. Kislyak, about U.S. sanctions on Russia, or any other foreign counterpart that he deemed appropriate.

“However, if you think Trump ISN'T trying to use the national security apparatus to spy on people he believes are stealing the election from him, people who are owned by China and the Ukraine, people who are bent on the destruction of America itself? Well, you're giving him more credit than he deserves.”

Trump is a blunt-force instrument. If he wants an indictment, or investigation, he just goes to Twitter. The sneaky maneuvering characteristic of a “community organizer” mentality is as alien to Donald, as a real job is to Barry.

“Would the professionals in those organizations go along with it? More than likely. I'll patiently wait until we find out that happened and you find some way to excuse it.“

Your “patience” will be severely tried. Pretty much everything Trump does politically makes headlines within five minutes of his decision. Take, for example, his move to fire four civilian appointees at the Pentagon yesterday. To read CNN’s account, one would think that he had decapitated our defense capacity.

DonaldD

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #445 on: November 11, 2020, 07:26:40 PM »
Even Trump's own lawyers are embarrassed about the weakness of their own evidence: Arizona judge denies Trump team request to seal evidence in vote-counting suit

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An Arizona Superior Court judge has denied a request by President Trump's reelection team to seal evidence in a lawsuit alleging poll workers in Maricopa County "incorrectly rejected" Election Day votes.

Judge Daniel Kiley agreed with election officials' assertion that the public “has a right to know how flimsy [the] Plaintiffs’ evidence actually is.”

According to the Arizona Republic, the Trump campaign claimed workers had disregarded procedure and that thousands of ballots could have been left uncounted or deemed "overvotes," but Maricopa officials estimated Monday that only 180 ballots were potentially in jeopardy.

Apparently, Trump's team wants the publicity of having brought the suit, and of feeding into the BS fraud narrative, without the humiliation of letting the public see just how unsupported are the actual claims.

TheDrake

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #446 on: November 11, 2020, 08:34:57 PM »
Drake,

“The Biden campaign and transition team probably won't be stupid enough to take random meetings with people closely associated with the CCP.“

Are you just confused? Joseph Mifsud is a Maltese academic, and Comey entrapment bait, with no connections to the CCP. Papadopoulos was a small player exploited under FISA to expand FBI surveillance requests. Or are you talking about General Flynn, who was fully entitled to talk with Sergey I. Kislyak, about U.S. sanctions on Russia, or any other foreign counterpart that he deemed appropriate.

As you ought to well know, surveillance started with Carter Page. He met with Russian officials during the campaign. There was never evidence gathered to show that he was working for them, but that surveillance never starts if he never met with them. That's why you do the surveillance, to determine the nature of the relationship.

noel c.

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #447 on: November 11, 2020, 09:36:33 PM »
Drake,

“As you ought to well know, surveillance started with Carter Page. He met with Russian officials during the campaign.”

Dr. Carter Page, Annapolis graduate, ex-naval officer, Eagle Scout, altar boy, and generally upstanding American, is the last person that you should want to accuse.

“There was never evidence gathered to show that he was working for them, but that surveillance never starts if he never met with them. That's why you do the surveillance, to determine the nature of the relationship.”

Page was a confidential CIA source, as he stated to the FBI official in charge of FISA applications, Kevin Clinesmith. Clinesmith was subsequently instructed to ask the CIA again about Page’s relationship with the agency. He was again informed by email that Page was, in fact, working for them; yet Clinesmith changed the CIA email response to describe Page as ”not working” for it. Clinesmith was then criminally referred by Justice Department Inspector Horowitz for falsifying evidence in a FISA application, and charged in the course of John Durham’s criminal probe. Clinesmith plead guilty.

I should add that investigators also found numerous messages against Trump on Clinesmith’s social media accounts, including one declaring "vive le resistance” after Trump won.  Stories like this can’t be made up.

Just another day in the Obama FBI.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 09:48:12 PM by noel c. »

LetterRip

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #448 on: November 11, 2020, 10:00:12 PM »
Being a 'confidential source' doesn't mean he is exempt from being investigated or prosecuted for engaging in illegal activity.

Claims of him being a confidential source are irrelevant unless he was specifically tasked with the illegal behaviour he appeared to be engaged in.



yossarian22c

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #449 on: November 11, 2020, 10:05:15 PM »
Drake,

“As you ought to well know, surveillance started with Carter Page. He met with Russian officials during the campaign.”

Dr. Carter Page, Annapolis graduate, ex-naval officer, Eagle Scout, altar boy, and generally upstanding American, is the last person that you should want to accuse.

“There was never evidence gathered to show that he was working for them, but that surveillance never starts if he never met with them. That's why you do the surveillance, to determine the nature of the relationship.”

Page was a confidential CIA source, as he stated to the FBI official in charge of FISA applications, Kevin Clinesmith.

Was Page a current informant? Or did his relationship with the CIA end in 2013 when he was involved in a criminal case (as source? witness? double agent?) with two Russian spies.

Or was Page spying on the Trump campaign for the CIA? I'm sure Obama is to blame either way.