Author Topic: Election Results  (Read 37061 times)

TheDrake

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1350 on: February 11, 2021, 04:22:59 PM »
What is intuition or "gut feel"? Sometimes it is perception below the rational thought process awareness. Like "hey, something about this person seems off". Far more often, in my opinion, it is unconscious bias of many types - like "I'm downgrading this person's opinion because she's a woman" or "I'm crossing the street because that black guy looks dangerous". Other times it is because you have been immersed in media, friends, and family that all align the same way - a form of anchor and confirmation bias. Sometimes it is anecdotal - "my uncle got screwed over by a mechanic, now I don't trust mechanics".

Other times it has a rational basis, without being quantitative. "This study was funded by an oil company, so I'm going to assume it is false because they have an agenda that favors the sale of more oil."

In none of these cases do you "know" anything, even if sometimes it might be valuable and useful for making decisions. And in most cases, it is dangerous to found decisions on "gut feel", although sometimes you must do so in the absence of information. And yes, that is epistemology.

As an adherent of Objectivist philosophy, this sums things up pretty decently.

Quote
Objectivists defend the efficacy of reason against all critics. Skeptics say that because we are fallible, we must doubt all our beliefs. But this claim is a self-contradiction: the skeptic is claiming certainty at least for his belief in our fallibility. Religious mystics often claim that God or the supernatural is so different from everything we know that it is beyond reason's ability to understand. But since whatever exists has identity, i.e. definite and delimited properties, it is always possible to contrast it with other things, conceptualize it, establish standards of measurement, and thereby begin to reason about it. At a time when mathematicians explore the properties that even infinite spaces and processes must have, it underestimates the human mind to think it incapable of plumbing deep or complex phenomena.

Anyone who claims insights that do not derive from sensory evidence and logical reasoning is, in effect, asking you to abuse your mind. Someone who claims, skeptically, that no real knowledge is possible is asking you to abandon your mind entirely. Objectivism holds that it is possible to be certain of a conclusion, and that there is such a thing as truth. But being certain depends on scrupulously following a logical, objective process of reasoning, because it is only that kind of thinking that allows us to formulate true ideas. To be objective, people must know how to define the terms they use (so they know what they mean), base their conclusions on observable facts (so their beliefs are anchored in reality) and employ the principles of logic (so that they can reliably reach sound conclusions).

Wayward Son

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1351 on: February 11, 2021, 04:49:33 PM »
I think "knowledge" is not the right term to be discussing.  I think it should be "certainty."

You can know things without being certain of them.  I can know my neighbor is a jerk without being certain.  I can know that government is corrupt without being certain.  I can know Fords are lousy cars without being certain.

The problem today is that people can't differentiate between their knowledge and their certainty.  They think that, just because they know something is true, they are and should be certain that it is true.  So knowing that the election was stolen means that they are willing to die or kill for it.

But there are levels of certainty.  Things with lots of evidence--dynamite exploding, the sun rising each morning--have a very high degree of certainty.  Other things--my neighbor being a jerk, that every government official is corrupt--has a low degree of certainty, until there is enough evidence. 

When people start to believe that things that have a low degree of certainty--like the election being fraudulently stolen--have a high degree of certainty, then we get magical thinking, religious cults, extremism, and the like.  The problem is source like churches, Fox News, and cults like QAnon and flat earthers teach people that individual knowledge and believe should be considered highly certain.  It's that kind of stupid thinking that has lead us into this mess.

I'm not saying that this is anything new.  I'm sure you can find eras in history where it was much worse.  But it is getting worse, which is why we had an attack on the Capitol over a highly uncertain contention.

rightleft22

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1352 on: February 11, 2021, 05:30:07 PM »
I think "knowledge" is not the right term to be discussing.  I think it should be "certainty."

You can know things without being certain of them.  I can know my neighbor is a jerk without being certain.  I can know that government is corrupt without being certain.  I can know Fords are lousy cars without being certain.

The problem today is that people can't differentiate between their knowledge and their certainty.  They think that, just because they know something is true, they are and should be certain that it is true.  So knowing that the election was stolen means that they are willing to die or kill for it.

But there are levels of certainty.  Things with lots of evidence--dynamite exploding, the sun rising each morning--have a very high degree of certainty.  Other things--my neighbor being a jerk, that every government official is corrupt--has a low degree of certainty, until there is enough evidence. 

When people start to believe that things that have a low degree of certainty--like the election being fraudulently stolen--have a high degree of certainty, then we get magical thinking, religious cults, extremism, and the like.  The problem is source like churches, Fox News, and cults like QAnon and flat earthers teach people that individual knowledge and believe should be considered highly certain.  It's that kind of stupid thinking that has lead us into this mess.

I'm not saying that this is anything new.  I'm sure you can find eras in history where it was much worse.  But it is getting worse, which is why we had an attack on the Capitol over a highly uncertain contention.

If I understand LetterRip correctly. You can believe things without being certain while knowing something requires some verifiable objective facts.

I can know my neighbor is a jerk without being certain. Actually you can't.  A more accurate statement is that you believe and or feel that your neighbor is a jerk. Someone having the same experience with your neighbor may not judge him to be a jerk. The Belief your does not make it certain knowledge of everything that is your neighbor. 

With regards to faith. Belief is not the same as faith which is not the same as knowing with certainty though you may act with the certainty of ones faith, acting as if, while not being certain.
The opposite of faith is not doubt but what a person might lean on in times of doubt which maybe based on beliefs or something that is beyond words and "knowledge".
Fear is to courage as doubt is to faith.

Wayward Son

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1353 on: February 11, 2021, 05:38:23 PM »
As the Good Book says, Faith is the belief in things not seen...

Which means you can have Faith in things that are simply untrue, as most of the religions in this world testify.  (After all, they can't all be right, especially those who preach that everyone else's is wrong.  ;D )  So while faith can be beneficial, especially in dire circumstances, it can be faith in nothing, and it should never be used as justification to constrain someone else's choices or to take someone else's life.

TheDrake

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1354 on: February 11, 2021, 05:40:22 PM »
Agree. You can feel that your neighbor is a jerk. And if you can't explain how he has been a jerk to a third party, more likely you are biased. If you can say "he plays loud music" or "she doesn't mow her lawn" or even "they never stop to chat when I see them outside" - that's objective evidence. Now, it doesn't mean you have to PROVE your neighbor is a jerk. Such a situation would require you investigate his relations with a large number of people he interacts with. A safer statement would be "I know he acts like a jerk to me.", totally safe would be "I feel as though he is a real jerk."

Advocating that someone not do business with him because he is a jerk should have a higher standard than grousing about him.

Likewise asserting "Democrats tried to steal the election, I just know it." is pretty dubious in the absence of any objective and empirical evidence.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1355 on: February 11, 2021, 06:16:34 PM »
After all the hullaballoo about Russian interference and rigging the election so Trump could steal it one fact I find interesting, if it is a fact but I'm confident that it almost certainly is, is that more votes were provably changed because of voter fraud in the 2020 election than were changed because of Russian interference in the 2016 election and yet we see how off the deep end the Democrats went with denying voter fraud in the 2020 election compared with how they dived headfirst right into the shallow end with Trump stealing the election against Hillary because of Russian collusion and interference even though Democrats have never proven even one single vote was changed because of Russian interference whereas it has been proven that at least one vote was changed because of voter fraud. So the fact is more votes have been proven to have been changed because of voter fraud than Russian interference and yet we see the difference in Democrat responses. I guess my point is that it's just fascinating to watch is all.

rightleft22

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1356 on: February 11, 2021, 06:22:57 PM »
As the Good Book says, Faith is the belief in things not seen...

Which means you can have Faith in things that are simply untrue, as most of the religions in this world testify.  (After all, they can't all be right, especially those who preach that everyone else's is wrong.  ;D )  So while faith can be beneficial, especially in dire circumstances, it can be faith in nothing, and it should never be used as justification to constrain someone else's choices or to take someone else's life.

I think most religious people mistake belief and faith as being the same thing. And often faith with the need to be certainty. Neither faith or belief 'knowledge' should be confused with objective knowledge - scientific knowledge) The languages don't translate and if you try your going to miss the point. 

rightleft22

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1357 on: February 11, 2021, 06:30:25 PM »
After all the hullaballoo about Russian interference and rigging the election so Trump could steal it one fact I find interesting, if it is a fact but I'm confident that it almost certainly is, is that more votes were provably changed because of voter fraud in the 2020 election than were changed because of Russian interference in the 2016 election and yet we see how off the deep end the Democrats went with denying voter fraud in the 2020 election compared with how they dived headfirst right into the shallow end with Trump stealing the election against Hillary because of Russian collusion and interference even though Democrats have never proven even one single vote was changed because of Russian interference whereas it has been proven that at least one vote was changed because of voter fraud. So the fact is more votes have been proven to have been changed because of voter fraud than Russian interference and yet we see the difference in Democrat responses. I guess my point is that it's just fascinating to watch is all.

I think you need to check your facts. Few people that view Russian interference as a fact think it impacted the election results in a meaningful way. Hileary may believe the election was stolen from her - stolen meaning many things in that context. However the majorly of Dem's did not think the election stolen .

the Facts are that 84 million people voted for Biden and 74 million people voted for Trump.  Plus or minus End of story. If you have any facts that dispute that post them.


Fenring

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1358 on: February 11, 2021, 06:51:43 PM »
I don't have time this second for any point by points answers, but regarding language I also want to throw in there that the word "faith" has only recently started to be used (by people who generally are anti-faith) to mean "believing in something imaginary" or something like that. But the term probably never meant in the past to refer to what it was you believed in, but rather to the conviction and degree to which you fight with yourself to keep that faith. Faith is better described as a struggle rather than as a binary "I do" or "I do not" have it, which is how we're talking about knowledge or belief here. That's another problem; we use a word in a dubious or even incorrect way, then attribute that made-up idea to people and use it as some kind of assessment of what's going on in their head. I could go on about the word "belief" as well, starting with Plato, Hume, etc etc. It also is not particularly useful when defined as "thing you think for which you don't have evidence." That is a pretty mangled use of that word.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1359 on: February 11, 2021, 06:53:01 PM »
Well like I said it's also a fact that more votes were provably cast fraudulently in the 2020 election than were changed because of Russian interference in the 2016 election and yet the Democrats focus more on the thing that hasn't been proven to have changed any votes one way or the other compared to the thing that has been proven to have changed votes.

In other words, what I'm saying point blank is that voter fraud is demonstrably more serious than Russian interference and yet you would think it was the other way around the way Democrats dismiss voter fraud while they went on for four years and had Congressional hearings, investigations, and an impeachment over Russian interference.

And if both Russian and interference and voter fraud are negligible in terms of their election impact, that's fine. So why did we have all the hype then about Russian interference and even collusion?

Well I'll tell you. It was to do exactly what Democrats are complaining about Trump doing now. It was to call into question the results of the election and to undermine the legitimacy of the election and therefore the President.

And furthermore, it was also part of the equation with the violent BLM riots that the Democrats including those in Congress incited.

Even Biden supported the BLM riots.

"On May 31, the fifth night of demonstrations, former Vice President Joe Biden, the party’s presumptive nominee, wrote in a statement that protesting police brutality is “right and necessary” and the “American response."

“But burning down communities and needless destruction is not,” Biden wrote. “Violence that endangers lives is not. Violence that guts and shutters businesses that serve the community is not.”

Sure he "says" to be peaceful but he supported the "protests" even after time and time again they were predictably violent and destructive.

Just like Trump who said: "I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard."

But that's supporting violence and insurrection and results in impeachment even though it only happened once and was hardly predictable. If what Trump said was a wink and a nod the same standard has to be applied to Biden and other Democrats.

The double standard is patently obvious. I understand that's going to be part of Trump's defense and they'll have the money quotes coming up soon.


cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1360 on: February 11, 2021, 07:03:04 PM »
I should probably be clear.

The Democrats supported the BLM protests.

They didn't come right out and say that they supported violence. In fact they said the opposite.

But... and this is the point.

Nevertheless, the BLM protests WERE violent and destructive. For months.

And the Democrats supported them even after supporting the protests predictably resulted in violence.

So to come now and say that Trump is guilty of something when they spent months doing the same thing is just absurd. There were peaceful Trump protesters that never entered the capitol building and never broke any laws who were fighting for their country. Those are the people who listened to Trump. Holding him responsible for the actions of the others when those actions couldn't be foreseen makes no sense if we aren't holding the Democrats responsible for their words that led to violent actions and arson which could be foreseen because it kept happening again and again and again month after month after month.

Aris Katsaris

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1361 on: February 11, 2021, 07:18:05 PM »
Cherry, I am absolutely certain that if it wasn't for Donald Trump's words and behaviour, the capitol riot wouldn't have happened.

Can you name a single *censored*ing Democrat politician for whom you can say the same in regards to the BLM riots?

This isn't a rhetorical question, so I'd like you to answer me. If Biden hadn't existed, or had refused to comment, or whatever, are you saying that the BLM riots wouldn't have happened? Can you tell me the same about any other Democrat?

Do please explain the *censored*ing "double standard" which is supposedly obvious? Was there a single BLM riot where the rioters were using loudspeakers to repeat the words of a Democrat politician, waving a Democrat politician's banners, and were rioting while saying "We are listening to <Democrat politician>"?

Because the rioters did all these things with Trump!

Again, this isn't a rhetorical question. Answer it please, yes, or no?

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1362 on: February 11, 2021, 08:00:54 PM »
Sounds like some sort of butterfly effect thing.

That's not the standard.

The standard is are the consequences foreseeable?

With Trump, they were not.

With the BLM riots, they were because they kept happening again and again for month after month.

But if you demand an answer then sure if Trump hadn't called for protests then the capitol riot probably wouldn't have happened. But he called for peaceful protests and for people to fight for their country, not fight against the police which incidentally was the opposite of the BLM riots which were specifically against the police.

LetterRip

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1363 on: February 11, 2021, 09:00:09 PM »
cherry,

it was warned for months that a violent attack on politicians would be a likely result of Trumps illegitimate claims of election fraud.  Many Trump supporters were threatening civil war and death threats were being made.  The claim that it wasn't foreseeable is absurd.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1364 on: February 12, 2021, 12:39:12 AM »
Just like it was predictable that Democrats lying about Trump colluding with Russia to steal the election could predictably lead to violence just like we saw at with the Congressional baseball shooting by left-wing activist Hodgkinson who agreed and according to wikipedia wrote that, "Trump is a Traitor. Trump Has Destroyed Our Democracy. It's Time to Destroy Trump & Co." above his repost of a Change.org petition demanding "the legal removal" of Trump and Vice President Mike Pence for "treason". He belonged to numerous political Facebook groups, including those named "Terminate the Republican Party", "The Road To Hell Is Paved With Republicans", and "Donald Trump is not my President."

If Trump's lies about massive voter fraud caused the capitol riot then Democrat lies and an actual impeachment about Trump colluding with Russia to steal an election caused that shooting and every Democrat who voted to impeach the first time should impeach themselves for inciting violence with their lies.

Aris Katsaris

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1365 on: February 12, 2021, 12:49:16 AM »
I'm sick and tired of your defense of the fascist piece of *censored* and your desperately inane whataboutism.

That's your one *censored*ing tactic, as you can't actually justify or excuse the horrifically criminal acts of your favourite wannabe dictator who tried to break the constitution into a bazillion pieces to cling to power, and your only pretense is the justification of every villain: That supposedly Everyone's Doing It.

No they don't. Your beloved monster is in a category all of its own, and unprecedented in USA history.


cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1366 on: February 12, 2021, 01:37:13 AM »
Well that makes two of us because I'm also sick and tired too of all the lies about Trump especially about his so called racism and fascism and the violence and riots those lies inspired in the BLM riots and Antifa violence. We see how right Trump was about the importance of secure borders and law and order. Border crossings are up. And what about all that talk for all those years about how it's not going to be a mass amnesty? Lies. Trump actually had more black people vote for him than last time. Black people with some common sense understand that living with law and order is not something to be afraid of; it's anarchy and chaos like we see in the inner cities that is the big problem. And they also understand how virtually unlimited immigration is going to lead to lower wages and benefits for workers including themselves.


https://www.wsj.com/articles/illegal-border-crossings-climbed-in-january-raising-pandemic-worries-11613007374



And now we get seemingly random acts of violence against Asians, many of them elderly, and the blame still goes to Trump even though it's hard to see how we can blame white nationalists when it's black people attacking the Asians. Some articles mention how Trump blamed China for the virus but none of the articles mention any of the perps saying that had anything to do with their motivations.


https://news.yahoo.com/9-asian-owned-businesses-windows-211216274.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/string-attacks-against-older-asians-leaves-big-city-chinatowns-edge-n1257157

"San Francisco is assigning more police to its Chinatown this week, for example, after older Asians have been targeted in a wave of robberies, burglaries and assaults. Area officials have advised residents to be vigilant after three violent attacks on Jan. 31 alone. One incident made national headlines as security cameras captured a 91-year-old man being pushed to the ground unprovoked...

... Another Jan. 31 attack captured on surveillance video turned deadly after 84-year-old Vicha Ratanapakdee was pushed to the ground by a 19-year-old assailant. Ratanapakdee, who is Thai American, was on a walk when the attacker ran up from behind, shoved him to the ground and walked away. Ratanapakdee died of his injuries a few days later...

... Yang said that AAJC data shows Asian Americans reported more than 3,000 hate incidents last year.

“And those are just self-reports,” he said. He blames the Trump administration for using hateful and misleading rhetoric scapegoating Chinese people when talking about Covid-19. He said that anxiety is growing within Asian communities where this violence is happening..."

...None are being investigated as hate crimes, authorities said."

Yeah, so black people are attacking Asians because Trump incited them to racist violence? Give me break. I guess that means that Trump also inspired black attacks on Asian businesses and people during the Rodney King riots.

Welcome to Biden's new America. Democrats, the party of giving people room to destroy.

The good thing about Biden getting elected and Democrats taking control of Congress is we're going to all get a first row seat to witness just how much damage Democrats can do when they can do what they want. The bad thing about it though is that this time they will do so much damage so quickly that by the time the next Presidential election rolls around not even Trump will be able to save us.

kidv

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1367 on: February 12, 2021, 02:22:36 AM »
Hey, uh, Cherry?

None of the videos you link or the articles you quote mention the race of any of the people attacking Asians. 

From what you've submitted, it appears like you have declared that all the people randomly attacking Asians are black people. 

Your second linked video showed a four incident screen montage half way through that showed one attacker that clearly appears to be black.  No where else do I see any clearly identifiable race pictured, and none of the stories mention race of the attackers.

This gives the appearance that you're declaring that all these random attacks on Asians are being done by black people [based on your assumption that people attacking Asians must be black people?].

That's the appearance.  It looks problematic.

Aris Katsaris

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1368 on: February 12, 2021, 02:32:29 AM »
"Well that makes two of us because I'm also sick and tired too of all the lies about Trump especially about his so called racism and fascism"

Oh, the guy who wants the confederate names in the militaey bases, and who cancelled the Tubman bill, and the guy who has people with saw fine people on both sides in Charlottesville, and the guy who always gets support from thr people with nazi t-shirts is supposedly not a racist, right. What a lie.

And he's not a fascist, though he put himself above courts, legislature and constitution, declared everyone who's not with him a traitor, and gave a classic fascist speech about STRENGTH against the vile conspirators who would destroy the nation. What a lie that he's a fascist.

"Trump actually had more black people vote for him than last time°

Yeah a whole 8 percent voted of black people voted for him, they must be the ones with common sense, 92 percent of black people must lack it! /s

And yet how strange that whenever we check for education, it's actually the religiously superstitious and the most uneducated people that always vote for Trump.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1369 on: February 12, 2021, 10:40:51 AM »
Most of the stories don't describe the perps very well. Most that do that I've seen mention that they were African American. I've seen one that was a Hispanic. If they were white the tendency is for the media to blast that fact in all caps so when it's not mentioned nowadays what's left unsaid pretty much says it all. Sure it's an assumption and it could be wrong but when the media refuses to report the facts unless people are willing to travel across the country and investigate things for themselves all anyone is really left with are assumptions which may be false. But usually aren't.

https://nextshark.com/man-fights-back-after-getting-water-thrown-at-him-because-he-has-coronavirus-in-nyc/

Here's another story where nowhere is it mentioned by the perp what his motivation is or if it has anything to do with Trump or Covid but the story says that the attack was committed because of Covid related racism as if that was a fact when it is just an assumption. Also nowhere is there really a description of the perp and although there is a video it's hard to tell. The thing is the media doesn't really follow up with the police to find out what the perps said, if anything, about their motivation and most of the time they also leave out a description. I remember a story about Britain pretty much banning the media from descriptions because they would foster racism.

I couldn't find that story about Britain that was around the time of all the acid attacks but while looking for it I did find stories about how minorities are disproportionately described as criminals compared to whites.

https://psmag.com/social-justice/racial-bias-and-how-the-media-perpetuates-it-with-coverage-of-violent-crime

So I guess it makes sense that the media will censor itself to help in the fight against racism and social injustice. Of course the irony is that it is censoring itself in stories about racist attacks.

I don't see the evidence that the election was stolen by massive voter fraud but I see plenty of evidence all the time that the election was stolen by media manipulation and fraud.

Another recent example is the officer murder in the Capitol riot, if the following is actually true:

"But the media are lying about his death. First, they claimed he was hit on the head with a fire extinguisher. Then they said he was dragged into the crowd and beaten. All that is known for sure is that after Sicknick returned to headquarters, he collapsed and later died.

Last week, CNN nonchalantly inserted this into a story on Officer Sicknick: “Medical examiners did not find signs that the officer sustained any blunt force trauma, so investigators believe that early reports that he was fatally struck by a fire extinguisher are not true.”

https://anncoulter.com/2021/02/10/my-nation-unifying-impeachment-solution/

If he wasn't in fact murdered by someone hitting him with a fire extinguisher and the media is refusing to report that fact then that's kind of a big deal. It is a tragedy that he died and it wouldn't have happened without the riots so they still get the blame but that level of false narrative is too much, like the Iraqi soldiers pulling babies out of incubators and murdering them by throwing them on the floor or against the walls. What actually happened was bad enough but if our media is going to feed us lies to manipulate us that's too much.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2021, 10:47:36 AM by cherrypoptart »

TheDrake

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1370 on: February 12, 2021, 10:42:49 AM »
I doubt that the presumably significant number of white attacks on Asians probably get the same level of coverage, barring associations or details that indicate racist intent. Now, if the dude is a member of the Proud Boys, of course that's going to get elevated to national attention, and it should be. Do any of your stories support the idea that in similar circumstances there is more coverage of a white assailant?

You seem to be ignoring the very real effect of Trump being ambivalent at best about groups like the Proud Boys, if not actively encouraging. Wouldn't you agree that the Proud Boys would have a harder time recruiting if Trump disparaged them half as much as progressive members of congress?

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1371 on: February 12, 2021, 11:17:18 AM »
I'm not seeing that many stories about a white assailant. The two prominent ones I remember are Smollett and this one that I couldn't remember exactly but found it:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/22/us/fake-hate-crimes.html

"Among those cases was the one in 2016 reported by Yasmin Seweid, 18, the young woman on the New York City subway who told the police that she was the victim of an anti-Islamic assault. She said the attackers yelled “Donald Trump.” But within weeks, Ms. Seweid admitted that she had made up the story, reportedly to cover for a night of drinking with friends. She was charged with filing a false report, a misdemeanor in New York State."

And there was also the big one a while back with the Iranian activist Gelareh Bagherzadeh. Everyone seemed to assume it must have been a racist hate crime.

The story's point though is that white people actually do commit a lot of hate crimes. I can buy that. I have no doubt of it. But that's no excuse for making them look even more guilty than they actually are. My problem is attributing hate crimes to white people when white people didn't actually do them as seems to be the case in most of these recent anti-Asian hate crimes but as pointed out we don't really know because the media refuses to tell us. Just like the media is refusing to tell anyone exactly how the Capitol hill police officers died. When it doesn't fit the narrative, it doesn't get reported.

TheDrake

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1372 on: February 12, 2021, 11:59:53 AM »
Meanwhile, right wing media like Newsmax and Brietbart never miss an opportunity to highlight when a hispanic illegal immigrant commits a violent crime. While simultaneously insinuating without evidence that white guys doing something similar are secret Antifa agents.

msquared

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1373 on: February 17, 2021, 08:32:22 AM »
Rudy G is out as Trumps lawyer.  How soon before Trump starts blasting him?

msquared

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1374 on: February 22, 2021, 12:28:49 PM »
Well the US SC refuses to hear 3 more Trump cases about the election.

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/supreme-court-rejects-appeals-republicans-152100370.html

I think all that is left is the Kraken and Lin Wood and Powell have been silent since they have been sued by Dominion and Smartmatic.

3-1/2 months and Trump and his supporters have release no information, anywhere, that supports their claims of massive voter fraud.

msquared

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1375 on: February 24, 2021, 10:02:01 AM »

msquared

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1376 on: March 01, 2021, 12:31:41 PM »
The Kraken is dead.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/supreme-court-finally-rejected-sidney-161031074.html

So Powell was denied in almost all of the cases (she withdrew the GA Kraken case).

So Trump lost, lost big, but is still using the same story.  Now that he is not in office, I wonder if Dominion and Smartmatic will sue him next.

yossarian22c

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1377 on: March 03, 2021, 01:02:59 PM »
Well Sydney Powell has finally been served with Dominions billion dollar defamation suit.  It looks like she has been avoiding the process servers for weeks and they finally caught up with her.  I think she is on record saying she welcomes the suit, but has still tried to avoid being served.  I wonder why?  Let's see if she keeps up the charade.

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/03/972960446/trumps-baseless-2020-conspiracies-complicate-ohio-effort-to-buy-voting-machines

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A conspiracy theory sown by former President Donald Trump and his allies to cast doubt on his loss last year has trickled down to county-level politics, impeding one Ohio county's ability to purchase new voting equipment ahead of local elections this year.
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The controversy started in December, when the bipartisan Stark County Board of Elections voted unanimously to replace its aging voting machines with new ones from Dominion.

Since that vote, the county's three top elected officials, all Republicans, say they've been getting an earful from voters.
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In the weeks since that meeting, the county's commissioners have yet to approve the $6.5 million contract. With state assistance and a credit from Dominion, the machines would cost Stark County only about $1.5 million directly.

If this sell falls through this lawsuit is going to get very expensive for Powel and the other liars.

msquared

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1378 on: March 04, 2021, 02:36:58 PM »
Well it is Mar 4 and Trump is still not the President?  I wonder if those people will become like the End of Timer's, with a new date every time the old one passes with out their prediction coming true.  Of course there are still about 10 hours left in the day, 13 if you count time from CA and even more if you figure it from HI.

rightleft22

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1379 on: March 04, 2021, 03:19:05 PM »

People who subscribe to QAnon tend to be those that distrust main stream media while having not issue with trusting a anonymous Q.
The mental gymnastics required to maintain the cognitive distance is amazing if not also absurd

yossarian22c

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1380 on: March 05, 2021, 11:30:19 AM »

People who subscribe to QAnon tend to be those that distrust main stream media while having not issue with trusting a anonymous Q.
The mental gymnastics required to maintain the cognitive distance is amazing if not also absurd

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/03/971457702/exit-counselors-strain-to-pull-americans-out-of-a-web-of-false-conspiracies

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Michelle Queen does not consider herself part of QAnon, but she does believe some of its most outlandish conspiracies – including that Satan-worshipping elites in a secret pedophile cabal are killing babies and drinking their blood.

"When you are evil, you're evil," says Queen, 46, from Texas. "It goes deep."

Queen also believes the big lie that the Democrats stole the election from former President Donald Trump, and that the people who broke into the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6 were actually undercover members of the left-wing Antifa, even though none of those who've been charged appears to have any connection with the far-left movement. FBI Director Christopher Wray on Tuesday rejected conspiracy theories blaming left-wing extremists for the violence.

"That's who they said they arrested," Queen says. "They didn't tell you all the others. Y'know the news ain't gonna give you the whole thing."

Queen is among an alarming number of Americans responding to a recent Ipsos poll, who mistook several false conspiracy theories for truth. While delusional conspiracy theories go way back, experts say right-wing disinformation, in particular, is now spinning out on an unprecedented scale.

Experts see this spread of disinformation as a public health emergency that's threatening democracy, increasing the risk of further violence, and straining family relationships. It's also taxing a bevy of "deprogrammers" who are trying to help. More commonly referred to as "exit counselors" or "de-radicalizers," they help people caught up in cultic ideologies to reconnect with reality.

The amount of work it takes to get people out of these conspiracy theory mindsets is mind boggling. Given there are 45 million Trump voters who believe a lot of the lies he and his mouth pieces spewed about the election the country is in for a long haul in getting out of this mindset. Hopefully it will fade after the pandemic and people go back to more in person communication. Maybe twitter and Facebook making these things harder to find will help slow down how quickly they attract new people but getting shut down only makes the people already neck deep only more entrenched in their positions.

rightleft22

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1381 on: March 05, 2021, 02:02:03 PM »
Today when everything is political how do we address the issues which are phycological? The willingness to go down a rabbit hole of bias conformation leading to the acceptance of 'conspiracy' as fact is I think a phycological problem not a political one.  One that can easily be manipulated for political reasons but that history shows is a dangiours game. Gas lighting to the extreme? 

Michelle Queen wants to (needs to) believe and that's enough for belief to become fact. No need to discern further. Word and deed don't have to align. I can't see how it doesn't devolve into a kind of 'schizophrenia' if not for the individual, society.

msquared

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1382 on: March 05, 2021, 05:51:28 PM »
Example of voter fraud. Except it was 3 Republicans in the House trying to change the vote of another Republican who did not vote the way they wanted. So they tried to change his vote.

https://www.rawstory.com/3-republicans-accused-ethics-violation/

I guess voter fraud is OK when God is on your side.

Wayward Son

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1383 on: March 16, 2021, 10:58:55 AM »
And to add another nail to the coffin, an Arizona judge orders the Arizona GOP to pay the State back for some of its legal fees.

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Calling its lawsuit challenging 2020 election procedures "groundless" and "disingenuous," a judge has ordered the Arizona Republican Party — and its lawyers — to pay the state thousands of dollars in legal fees. 

In his ruling, Maricopa County Superior Court Judge John Hannah contended the GOP's team acted in "bad faith" when it questioned the process for auditing voting machines and sought to delay certification of election results last November.

Instead of living up to the "privileged position in the electoral process" afforded to it by state law, Hannah said, the party sought to undermine Arizonans' confidence in election results.

msquared

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1384 on: March 20, 2021, 04:07:08 PM »
Another example of election fraud.  Again, by Republicans.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/sham-candidate-helped-flip-florida-141301334.html

msquared

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1385 on: March 22, 2021, 07:59:24 PM »
Now that Powell is being sued, she says her statements about Dominion and Smartmatic were "hyperbolic" and that such statements would not be accepted as fact by "reasonable" people but that they should only be viewed as claims that await testing in court. Sure seems like she is walking back what she said.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ex-trump-lawyer-powell-asks-221500793.html

Why isn't her defense the truth?  That is the one clear defense against defamation, and she has said all along that she has plenty of evidence.  You would think she would want to present it in court, not get the case dismissed.  I mean isn't Trump willing to pay her defense?  Isn't this what he wanted, the evidence brought out in open court?

Wayward Son

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1386 on: March 22, 2021, 08:22:34 PM »
Good luck with her defense, too, now that Stark County in Ohio has decided not to buy Dominion machines because of pressure from residents who think they are corrupt and because of fears of the company's long-term viability.

That is an actual loss of income that Dominion can point to that is the direct result of defamatory statements that Powell and others have made.

Their up sh*t's creek without a paddle.  ;D

oldbrian

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1387 on: March 23, 2021, 09:47:22 AM »
Did...did Powell just say that Trump supporters were stupid for believing her?

LetterRip

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1388 on: March 23, 2021, 11:15:13 AM »
Did...did Powell just say that Trump supporters were stupid for believing her?

For those wondering what he is talking about ...

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"Determining whether a statement is protected involves a two-step inquiry," Powell's lawyers wrote in the filing in Washington federal court. "Is the statement one which can be proved true or false? And would reasonable people conclude that the statement is one of fact, in light of its phrasing, context and the circumstances surrounding its publication."

"Analyzed under these factors ... no reasonable person would conclude that the statements were truly statements of fact," the lawyers argued.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/23/pro-trump-lawyer-sidney-powell-election-theft-claims-not-statements-of-fact.html

Which is an interesting idea - what is a reasonable person? Can 40% of the US population be lawfully unreasonable?

msquared

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1389 on: March 23, 2021, 11:25:02 AM »
Does that mean that Trump is unreasonable?

msquared

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1390 on: March 23, 2021, 11:26:21 AM »
Is WmLambert unreasonable?

Wayward Son

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1391 on: March 23, 2021, 02:20:54 PM »
And how is it that she could present a statement to the courts that she could not reasonably believe was factual at the time?

Is she saying that, until a court rules something is true or false, anything can be presented, even statements that no reasonable person would believe is true?

So someone could say that Trump is factually a spy for Russia, on TV and in print, all over the nation, but until a court ruled one way or another, it would not liable because no reasonable person could believe it was true given the evidence backing the claim (which would be none at this point)??

An interesting legal theory.  One that no reasonable person would buy.  ;D

msquared

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1392 on: April 19, 2021, 07:07:25 PM »
USSC refuses to hear another case from PA Republicans.  Trump supporters will say they were not given a chance to present evidence, but the refusal was 9-0, with no dissent. So even on court with 3 Trump appointees and a conservative majority, no one thinks this case has any merit.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/supreme-court-rejects-pennsylvania-gop-183345511.html