Election Results

[Tom]

There are two issues here:

1) Not delivering a promise to student voters and/or misrepresenting the extent to which a politicial initiative is successful is a bad thing. Of course, no one here is entertaining for even a moment that Biden's more of a liar -- even in this sense -- than Trump; that would just be ridiculous. But it's certainly the case that progressive voters are not thrilled by Biden's track record, and it's valid to criticize him for inflating his accomplishments to increase their enthusiasm for voting.

2) Lying does not, of course, equate to "voter fraud" in any meaningful way; you yourself acknowledge that you're only making that silly attempt in order to deflect material discussions of the topic that are less favorable to the MAGA crowd.

[Wayward Son]

A few things occurred to me this morning, cherry.

1.  Remember that Biden is a gaffe machine.  The press hasn't been emphasizing it lately, but we all remember his reputation for misspeaking and saying the wrong thing when he was Vice-President.  So the fact that he misspoke is not surprising, and not indicative that he was intentionally lying.

2.  Although the youth vote was higher than it has historically been, it's still very low.  Which means that lying to them is one of the least effective lie a politician can make.

3.  When did you have this "come to religion" moment when you realized that misleading the public is so bad you can call it "voter fraud?"    I mean, where were you when politicians were talking about:
A. Obama being born in Kenya;
B. Al Gore inventing the Internet;
C. Hillary Clinton saying we should open the borders;
D. Donald Trump saying he actually won the election by millions of votes.
E. Democrats wanting to legalize abortion until the moment of birth.

I don't recall you being this upset over all those lies.  So why now?  And why over this insignificant lie?  And will your outrage last beyond this one instance?  You have plenty of opportunity for outrage just from Trump's announcement last night.  Let's hear some of that righteous wrath directed at the lying machine that is Donald J. Trump.

You'll get quite a bit of more cred if you do. 

[NobleHunter]

cherry, you said on the other thread that the loan program can't get passed the courts. Has someone solved the standing problem? AFAIK, they can't find anyone specifically harmed by the program who can sue the administration even if it's executive overreach. Not unless they want to authorize every Tom, Dick, and Harry suits against any government expenditure they don't like.

[cherrypoptart]

As for the lies, I didn't find Trump's particularly egregious. Most I thought were taken out of context or puffery or the main point behind them was true. Hillary opening the borders? I mean as far as I'm concerned Biden has opened the borders. Democrats won't see it that way of course which means even if Hillary did the same thing they wouldn't see it as opening the borders despite from the conservative point of view that's exactly what it is.

But the main thing is that a big deal was made of Trump's lies and now Biden gets a pass. Sure we'd like to hold each other to each other's standards but apparently that's never going to happen.

The standing issue is a tough one. I don't know. Maybe Congress can do something about it. Can Congress file a lawsuit against the President for usurping their powers? Would be a tough go in the Senate now.

By the way, there is one last chance apparently for Republicans to win a majority in the Senate. They'd need Georgia of course. And then according to Hannity all they'd need is to win Manchin. Biden's lies might finally catch up to him because allegedly, according to Hannity if I remember correctly (gotta include all the disclaimers to hopefully avoid a lawsuit nowadays), Biden and Schumer lied to Manchin with some sort of dirty energy promises to get the inflation acceleration legislation passed and now that he tricked Manchin out of his vote just like he did the gullible indebted collegiates the knives come out and the backstabbing begins.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/coal-miners-slam-biden-white-house-walks-back-shut-down-pledge-trying-destroy-country

EXCLUSIVE — Coal miners and industry groups representing coal production companies ripped President Biden days after he pledged to shut down coal plants and replace them with wind and solar alternatives.

"We're going to be shutting these plants down all across America and having wind and solar power," Biden remarked during a campaign event in Southern California late last week.

"[It is] cheaper to generate electricity from wind and solar than it is from coal and oil," he continued later in the speech. "Literally cheaper. Not a joke."

[yossarian22c]

Cherry since you have a new found interest in very accurate statements by Biden, calling it fraud when he misspoke about the method (executive vs legislative action) of the loan forgiveness plan his administration is organizing.

Would you care to chime in on these statements from Trump's 2024 bid.

We built the wall, and now we will add to it. Now, we built the wall – we completed the wall – and then we said let’s do more, and we did a lot more. And we did a lot more. And as we were doing it, we had an election that came up. And when they came in, they had three more weeks to complete the additions to the wall, which would’ve been great, and they said no, no, we’re not going to do that

and yet I’ve gone decades, decades without a war. The first president to do it for that long a period.

Emphasized the lying parts.

[jc44]

I think the difference is that we expect Biden (and most other people) to tell the truth and so it is newsworthy when he fails. Nobody expects Trump to tell the literal truth ever so it can be excused as "it's just his way of speaking".

[Tom]

Well, that's part of it. The other part is that many people (including liberals, although it's more common on the right) currently live inside a self-selected news bubble that insulates them from deeply shameful or alarming things their "side" does and repeats and histrionically condemns the antics of the Other.  When they aren't just completely making up crap or deliberately misrepresenting it, of course, which also happens.

I said thirty years ago that the biggest cultural and philosophical crisis of our age was going to be epistemological. I haven't seen any reason to second-guess that in the years since, although of course that may be a flaw in my epistemology.

[rightleft22]

I think the difference is that we expect Biden (and most other people) to tell the truth and so it is newsworthy when he fails. Nobody expects Trump to tell the literal truth ever so it can be excused as "it's just his way of speaking".

In his book Trump calls it Truthful hyperbole - 1+/-% truth/fact mixed with 99+/-% exaggeration and out right lies = truth and not lying. This slippery slope allows one to chose what to believe
If you have a event you don't want to believe happen and you can show that 1 of 10 facts can be proved to be wrong/lie you can discount the other 9. Or if you want to believe and can show 1 of 10 lies was true, its all you need.
No cognitive distortion as long as you don't' look to closely at yourself or the Leader

many people (including liberals, although it's more common on the right) currently live inside a self-selected news bubble

In the digital information age thier is only room for 0 or 1, like or dislike, with me or against me.... While real life is 99% AND 
in the digtal age research = googling until you find what you already think, click like and now your a expert.

[NobleHunter]

* The book that was ghostwritten for Trump

ETA: I don't know if I'm just more interested in the other side or that the liberal/leftist bubble is more permeable because what you don't know may include plans to kill you.

[TheDrake]

In order to think of this as a lie, you'd have to believe he thought he was trying to trick people into believing in imaginary legislation. Now, I know you've gotten used to a president who says easily disproven things on purpose, but I don't find it likely.

I see this equivalent to Trump claiming that revolutionary war troops took over airports. Factually incorrect, bonehead stupid, but not an attempt to mislead.

[msquared]

so MAGA Republicans in an AZ county are refusing to certify their election results, even though they voted heavily for Republicans.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/cochise-county-supervisors-prove-katie-140036365.html

If they get their way 1 national office and one state wide office that Republicans won will go Dem.  This is similar to Republicans in states Trump won easily saying fraud happened in their state.

Just a bunch of sore losers.

[NobleHunter]

I'd be as happy as the next gay if another district goes to the democrats, that a couple of idiots can throw out thousands of votes is alarming. I'm glad someone is suing to try and get these people to do their jobs. If there are voting irregularities, I'm sure they'll present evidence for them in court.

[msquared]

That is the story. The person suing is one of the people who would be helped if the votes in the county did not get counted.  She is suing against her own personal best interest. She is doing her job which can not be said by the Republican members in the county.

[TheDrake]

so MAGA Republicans in an AZ county are refusing to certify their election results, even though they voted heavily for Republicans.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/cochise-county-supervisors-prove-katie-140036365.html

If they get their way 1 national office and one state wide office that Republicans won will go Dem.  This is similar to Republicans in states Trump won easily saying fraud happened in their state.

Just a bunch of sore losers.

This is what happens when you put a bunch of Keurig smashers in charge of things.

[NobleHunter]

The worst part is that if the votes don't get counted a lot of people will believe that the Democrats sued to stop the certification and stole the seat. Because that's the story the GOP and its media will tell them.

[Wayward Son]

In a strange turn of events, the Cochise County Board of Supervisors have not certified the election results from Nov. 8.  At least four lawsuits have been filed (so far), which they most likely will have to pay for out of their own pocket.

And what would the effect of not certifying the results be?  Not changing the outcomes of the governor's race or the senate race.

However, if this does not get resolved by the time that Arizona is legally required to report its results (Dec. , then it will be as if the people of Cochise County never voted. That, in turn, would flip two election results: Superintendent of Public Instruction for Cochise County, and... House seat AZ-06. At the moment, Rep.-elect Juan Ciscomani (R), who won 50.7% of the vote, is headed to Washington. However, without those Cochise votes, it will be Kirsten Engel (D), who took 49.3%.

So sticking to their guns and principles, they would accomplish:

1. Possibly losing a lot of money in lawyer's fees
2. Possible jail time
3. Disenfranching every voter in their county
4. Denying a duly-elected Republican from taking his seat in the House
5. Gaining the respect of every Q-Anon person for "sticking it to the Dems." 

All based on some fuzzy doubts about the integrity of their own election process.

You gotta admit, they ain't the brightest bulbs in the nation. 

[msquared]

There is also a state wide race that would flip and the AG race would not need a recount.

[wmLambert]

AZ is under strict scrutiny because the one in charge of the election was running against Lake, and the voting was screwed-up big time. Hobbs said: "...My office has filed a lawsuit to ensure all voters have their votes county." Since she can't post grammatically and correctly, she defines her inadequacy. The lawsuits could not proceed until the votes were certified. That accreditation was today, so now the Lake lawsuits can go through. Cochise County couldn't certify their results, because they were legally incorrect and uncreditable. How does one certify something uncreditable? The Cochise county actions actually strengthen the Lake lawsuits.

[msquared]

So a typo is all you have against her? 

What evidence has been given that Cochise County's results were legally incorrect?  From what I have been able to find out they have not supplied any evidence what so ever of fraud of any type of voter suppression.

In fact Hobbs is suing Cochise County and if she wins it hurts Dems. Again no evidence of wide spread fraud or voter suppression. People were able to vote in Maricopa County, but they did have some issues. What issues did they have in Cochise?

[msquared]

And Hobbs running against Lake is basically just like Kemp running against  in GA. I do not remember you complaining about Kemp doing that. But we all know that was OK since he was a Republican.

How do you square Hobb's suit to force Cochise County to certify their votes (so that their voters are not disenfranchised) to the detriment of her own party? That sure sounds like someone doing the honorable thing to me.

[Wayward Son]

Cochise County couldn't certify their results, because they were legally incorrect and uncreditable.

Where did you get this idea?

I did a Google search and didn't find anything.

[rightleft22]

Head scratcher I can't find any reported reasons that Cochise County voted to delay certifying the results of this year's midterm elections.
It appears they did it because the could???

If I was into conspiracy theory I think those that voted not to certify the results without providing reasons did so to undermine democracy in the hopes of... installing a dictator the next go around or they were paid off by one.

[msquared]

From what I have read they did it in protest to fraud they thought happened in Maricopa County. Sort of like when TX sue to invalidate the votes in PA and GA since they did not like the rules that GA and PA had.

[msquared]

Well Cochise County, compelled by the court, confirmed their vote total.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/cochise-county-disregarding-state-elections-130100498.html

[yossarian22c]

https://www.npr.org/2022/12/07/1141384831/supreme-court-weighs-controversial-election-law-case

First up was lawyer David Thompson, representing the Republican state legislature. He told the court that the state courts have no authority under the U.S Constitution to rule on a state redistricting map. Justice Jackson reacted with incredulity.

"Is it your argument that the state constitution has no role to play, period?" she asked, to which Thompson answered, "That is our position."

The court ruled they wouldn't interfere with Gerrymander's a couple years ago but said state courts could. Now they're reviewing a case where a State court did and the argument the Republican legislature put forward is. State constitutions don't matter. So much for the party of State's rights.

[msquared]

So why did the Dems do so well in the mid terms? Did they get out the vote? Did they use mail in voting and early voting better than Republicans?

Well maybe, and maybe it was that Republicans turned out and did not vote for Republicans, but instead voted for Dems.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/turnout-republicans-great-just-many-191913435.html

Almost like they did not like the Trump backed candidates put forward.

[Wayward Son]

Republicans are coming around to the notion that voting by mail is a good way to vote.  At least the likes of Kevin McCarthy, Ronna McDaniel, Karl Rove, Sean Hannity, Kellyanne Conway, Laura Ingraham, Ron DeSantis, and Nikki Haley.

[msquared]

The thing is mail in and early voting had always favored Republicans in the past.  Elderly people and the military have been huge users of this. My mother has not been to a voting site in probably 10-15 years. She also leaves the country for several months from mid Dec to mid April, so uses vote by mail on most elections.

Just a quick note, my Mom is a die hard Republican who is so turned off by Trump that she did not vote for him in the 2020. Not that she voted for Biden, but she is why Trump and Trump backed candidates are doing worse than other down ticket Republican candidates. She was 81 in 2020 and is the type of person Trump et al were trying to scare.

[TheDrake]

Republicans are only against poor people voting by mail.

[msquared]

Well Kari Lake is following the Trump play book word for word and calling for election officials to be locked up before any trial or any proof is offered.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/kari-lake-calls-imprisoning-maricopa-035229558.html

Sure looks like she is trying to cement her place as Trumps running mate in 2024. I bet Melania would be pleased with that.

[TheDrake]

“We’ve seen judges dismiss cases, I don’t want you to get discouraged,” Lake told the crowd. “It could happen. We’re going to kick this right up to the Supreme Court, and I will not stop fighting.”

Unsuccessful Arizona Republican secretary of state candidate Mark Finchem contested his loss based on some of the same allegations, but a judge dismissed his case on Friday.

Signs point to yes. Join the parade of election denying losers.

[msquared]

And of course they will never agree that it was because the election was not stolen. It is because the courts are corrupt. All the way to the US SC.

[wmLambert]

And of course they will never agree that it was because the election was not stolen. It is because the courts are corrupt. All the way to the US SC.

You Democrats have stolen enough elections to become masters of the art form. Of course it is hard to prove when the Democrat complicit Justice Department, courts, and media conspire to block all evidence. What you can't rationalize away, is that the meddling to block the proof of the Biden Crime Family's usurpation of the news interfered in the process. over 14 whistle-blowers from the DOJ named names and were ignored by your spokesmen. Voters now aware of the real facts say they would not have voted for Biden. Despite all the election laws that were broken and ignored - just the manipulation of the news and blocking on social sites were enough to steal the election.

[Tom]

Please get mental help, William.

[msquared]

Wm you do know that a good portion of the cases were thrown out by judges appointed by Republicans, and many were appointed by Trump.

In AZ almost every aspect of the local systems were controlled by Republicans. In Maricopa county Republicans were in charge. In GA Republicans were in charge.

And it is the Trump Crime family, at least they are the only family between Trump and Biden to have any convictions on record, their history is much more clear about the greed and lust for power and money.

What Hunter did may have been unethical, but since his dad was not an elected official at the time he did those things, was it illegal? I will let the Justice Dept determine that. If they bring Hunter up on charges, so be it. I will accept that.

But just like Trump and Kari Lake in AZ, you do not want to go through the legal system. You just want to lock them up.  No trial, their guilt is so obvious due process is not needed. Democratic election crimes from 60 years ago can all be laid at Biden's feet.

[yossarian22c]

https://www.npr.org/2022/12/19/1144143474/rep-george-santos-new-york-false-biography-republican-red-wave

In his official biography, Santos claims to have graduated from Baruch College with "a bachelor's degree in economics and finance."

That appears to be untrue.

In a statement sent to NPR, Baruch College said it had checked its records for "a George Santos, born on July 22, 1988, with a graduation year of 2010, and could not find a match."
...
Citigroup and Goldman Sachs told the newspaper they had no record of Santos working for their firms, as the candidate claimed in his bio.

In a statement to NPR, a Citi spokesperson said they were "unable to confirm Mr. Santos' employment with Citi."

A spokesperson for Goldman Sachs also told NPR "we have no record of his employment."

Wonder if Cherry will be up in arms about Republicans lying about their credentials to voters. Tough to tell if Republicans care if their leaders lie to them.

Other notorious liar Madison Cawthorn did narrowly lose his primary, but that probably had more to do with the videos showing him engaging in mock gay sex, getting repeatadly arrested for carrying guns through airports, and dressing up in women's lingerie. Madison Cawthorn lied about most of his credentials as well.

[TheDrake]

Your evidence that there is fraud sir?

The result said I lost, when everyone knows it was rigged, even the Democrats.

I don't think evidence means what you think it means.

[Fenring]

I don't understand why the political system isn't taken more seriously, legally speaking. If a candidate is campaigning for an office, why is he not required to be sworn in regarding his claims to the public, with the stipulation that any statements made in public about his own credentials, past, and factual details will be considered to have been stated under oath. So that if this kind of thing happens, the person will be simply convicted for perjury.

[Tom]

If a candidate is campaigning for an office, why is he not required to be sworn in regarding his claims to the public...

Because it's not illegal to lie to the public about yourself or your policies except in very specific situations, and political campaigning has not yet been added by any legislature to that list.

To be fair, it would probably be very difficult to codify what would constitute a sufficiently untrue statement in the law, and political enemies would absolutely be incentivized to harass opponents by constantly pushing at the edges.

[Mynnion]

If a candidate for a job lies on their resume or application they are usually fired when found out.  I think all of them should be required to submit a resume/application and we should be able to require that they sigh it and have in verified before an election.  Obviously there are gray areas but it would at least assure that schooling and jobs are accurate.

[rightleft22]

If a candidate for a job lies on their resume or application they are usually fired when found out.  I think all of them should be required to submit a resume/application and we should be able to require that they sigh it and have in verified before an election.  Obviously there are gray areas but it would at least assure that schooling and jobs are accurate.

Maybe its the idea that, as representatives of the people, its up to the people to fire them by not casting their vote form them and so demanding better.
But we wont, do that. Instead we demand that the government, to which we just elected those people into, do something about it.

Tough to tell if Republicans care if their leaders lie to them.

When the ends justify the means lying does not matter,. Even if it means that one lost sight of what ends one is aiming for as those that are lying are lying about that as well.

[TheDrake]

If the legislature won't censure a member for lying about their credentials, why would they make it a crime? There's supposed to be an office of Congressional ethics.

[yossarian22c]

If the legislature won't censure a member for lying about their credentials, why would they make it a crime? There's supposed to be an office of Congressional ethics.

The incoming legislature is about to put Jim Jordan in a position of leadership after trying to help overthrow the government two years ago. They're going to reinstate MTG as a regular congress person with committee assignments. I'm guessing lying about where you worked and went to college is going to be low on the list as long as its a R next to his name. But if it were a D we would be hearing about "voter fraud," needing new elections, or forget the election just appoint a Republican to fill the seat. Maybe Walker, he's a good yes man.

[Fenring]

Well, if the answer as to why a method of preventing certain corruption isn't implemented is because the system is already too corrupt, then I can accept that. It's what I already thought, anyhow.

[rightleft22]

Well, if the answer as to why a method of preventing certain corruption isn't implemented is because the system is already too corrupt, then I can accept that. It's what I already thought, anyhow.

Not sure I understand. The system is corrupt so its ok to support corrupt candidates because well the other guy/tribe?

We are all part of the 'system' and it seems to me we arn't doing a very good job at doing our part as evidence by the number of votes some clearly unqualified persons received.
Want better stop supporting people who have no business running for office and then expecting them to clean it up and crying when they don't

[Fenring]

Not sure I understand. The system is corrupt so its ok to support corrupt candidates because well the other guy/tribe?

We are talking about the law, not about voters.

[rightleft22]

Not sure I understand. The system is corrupt so its ok to support corrupt candidates because well the other guy/tribe?

We are talking about the law, not about voters.

Well... keep voting for unqualified candidates and stop expecting the laws to change.  Don't hold the people you vote for accountable and stop crying when they don't hold themselves accountable

But yes my bad, no personal responsibility, were not to blame in anyway its the 'government'.  Lets take it down, and I don't know, replace it with a government, but this time for sure. Because this time we will only support qualified candidates. Opps no we wont.  Not our fault.

[rightleft22]

Apologies

Its just when we don't use the limited influence and power that we do have to create the change we like to see I don't see why we should be surprised when that change doesn't happen.
I've watches some the Jan 6 committee final report, a attempt to use the law to hold people accountable  and will likely come to nothing.

I suspect the even for those who don't want to know, know something that ought not to have happened, happened in ways that went against the laws we do have. They know that accountability is called for but will look away and then complain that thier is no accountability.  That is is likely that some on this site support that status quo with the power they do have, at the same time they will complain about it.

[Fenring]

Yes, rightleft, try and apply your logic to South American socialist governments or to the CCP in China. Why don't the people just 'vote away' the corruption and solve everything? They must just be voting poorly, their fault right?

[rightleft22]

We don't live in South American, we still have some power, though seem hell bent on giving it away