Author Topic: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency  (Read 31281 times)

Seriati

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2020, 01:04:32 PM »
Yes, I remember the headlines when DACA was ruled unconstitutional.

Headlines came when DAPA was ruled unConstitutional. DACA is unConstitutional.  Prosecutorial discretion applied to a class, is actually acutally not discretion, it's literally just arbitrary executive action to rule without law.  I mean, we don't have enough "resources" so we're no longer going to prosecute Civil Rights cases.  Is that a legitimate exercise of executive discretion?  We don't have enough resources, so we're no longer going to prosecute crimes occurring during riots, also legit?

The Rule of Law is a duty to faithfully enforce the laws, not to pretend the executive has discretion not only NOT to enforce the laws, but to turn that into an entitlement that it would take a law to establish.

There's really no legal basis for DACA being Constitutional.  No one can be entitled to something that is violating the law, that includes an "entitlement" not to be removed for that legal violation absent another legal violation.

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Selective enforcement of a variety of things is also not unconstitutional. It is about allocation of resources when it comes to enforcement. DACA rightfully can not grant citizenship. The federal government is not compelled to enforce every law, that would be impractical and a waste of resources.

This may be the single biggest most unAmerican idea that the left has incorporated into it's character.  The solution for bad laws is better laws, not arbitraty executive decisions serving political goals that are the opposite of the actual laws.

The laws say that those illegal aliens must be deported.  We'd all prefer that our immigration system be rationalized and that those who are in the DACA group be the first to benefit from that rationalization, FIX THE LAWs.  In fact, the abject refusal to fix those laws has put every one of those DACA recipients in a worse place than they'd be if we fixed the laws - which would almost certainly have led to citizenship for them.

Instead we have a system that abuses the rule of law, makes a mockery of the oath of office to faithfully enforce the laws, and is a violation of the separation of powers that does not - despite Democrat wishes to the contrary - empower the Executive to reverse that actual law on a fake claim of discretion, and that undermines and harms the very people you seem to want to help.  Court interference in Trump's repeal of "executive discretion" (which is beyond stupid to claim this is purely an exercise of discretion and therefore not an illegal law, but then to turn around and claim "discretion" doesn't actually mean discretion when it goes the other way) undermined what was almost certainly going to be a real reform to the law that fixed this issue.

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He will obviously also stop sending people back to their home countries to be murdered by drug lords and sold into prostitution.

Of course.  He's going to open up the borders to let the drug lords and pimps into this country, why would he need to send anyone home anymore?

Nothing - NOTHING - has stopped you from advocating for an amendment to our Asylum policy.  But that's something that the people have a right to decide - ie to have their Congress make a law on after debate - and under no circumstances can you ever let the people actually make a real decision in your world.  Until that law is fixed, what entitles someone to Asylum is decided under the current law, not whether someone would be better off in this country analysis.

Continually advocating against the application of law, is a direct undermining of the authority of the people in a Democracy.  Autocrats and Dictators pick and choose what laws to apply to people based on politics and identity class, leaders in a free country apply the laws fairly, evenly and without regard to serving their political goals or benefitting their friends.  I find it hilarious, that you guys are concerned about Trump the autocrat when you're in bed with true autocratic solutions.

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Likewise, he will start processing Visas in a timely fashion and help talented people who happen to have been born in other countries to be able to work here on a path to citizenship.

Got no problem with processing any legal visas or applications, or with granting any asylum requests that are actually consistent with our laws.  I have a massive problem with coaching applicants on asylum and visa fraud knowing full well that this generates years of delays on a proper removal from the country for no reason other than to generate that delay.

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I'm sure that infuriates you, Seriati, but as Rhett Butler said...

Mostly it disappoints me.  I shouldn't expect more with education in the state it is in this country, but it still disappoints.

There's a difference between what's a good or bad policy and what's a legal or illegal one.  It's incredibly short sighted of you to conflate "good" (in your opinion) with legal.

TheDrake

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #51 on: November 10, 2020, 01:48:23 PM »
So then you obviously opposed Trump when he did his end run around the Congressional authority about asylum?

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In the Immigrant Nationality Act, Congress established that the U.S. can enter into “safe third country” agreements with other nations. The agreement would make it so that the third country would process asylum claims instead of the U.S. Though Trump has discussed establishing third country agreements with Guatemala and Mexico, only one agreement currently exists and it’s with Canada.

“So this is actually a run around of the safe third country agreement,” Kennji Kizuka, Senior Researcher and Policy Analyst at Human Rights First, tells TIME. “Instead of reaching one of those agreements, what the administration is doing is punting people back to any third country that they potentially have passed through.”

“From our view, Congress already laid out the procedures to address asylum seekers who have passed through third countries or who have already been granted some form of protection or status in another country, and this isn’t it, this violates what Congress wrote out in the statute already,” Kizuka added.

TheDeamon

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2020, 01:39:55 AM »
Great, so you think the FDA should start arresting people in marijuana dispensaries? That's a law too.

Either laws are laws or they aren't laws. Laws on the books which are not enforced (unless a DA is looking to catch someone in a "gotcha!") are very bad, and very dangerous to the system as a whole. And IIRC Marijuana being illegal is an administrative ruling(although the department of HHS gets that authority by statute), not a statutory one, so it doesn't even require Congress to undo, it just requires certain decisions from the Secretary of Health and Human Services.

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Some states and counties have blue laws still on the books that say businesses can't open on Sundays.
And you want to keep those laws on the books because of what exactly? They serve no purpose, get rid of them.

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Officers can decide arbitrarily when to let someone off with a warning versus the hassle of arresting them.

Why give them the option? If its an obsolete or outright bad law, it needs to be removed from the code books. Unless you think Police need more tools for harassing the population at large?

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Do you know the size of the federal code? There are 4000 to 5000 statutes. Are you under the illusion that they are all being enforced without discretion?

I don't think most of those codes should be enforced, I think they should be streamlined and remove the ones that are no longer needed. Except that runs counter to the Democrat's dream of a bureaucratic super-state, which requires a byzantine set of on obscure and obsolete and often contradictory laws in order to be able to solidify its supremacy over everything else. Make the Administrator happy or he's going to ruin your life because there are laws he can hammer you with that you've never even heard of before.

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I'm not sure if you were one of them, but there have been people on this board applauding Sheriffs who refuse to enforce gun legislation.

Bad laws should be ignored, and removed as soon as practical. Your point is? At what point did the people applauding those Sheriffs advocate for keeping those bad laws on the books?

TheDrake

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2020, 12:27:53 PM »
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I don't think most of those codes should be enforced, I think they should be streamlined and remove the ones that are no longer needed. Except that runs counter to the Democrat's dream of a bureaucratic super-state, which requires a byzantine set of on obscure and obsolete and often contradictory laws in order to be able to solidify its supremacy over everything else. Make the Administrator happy or he's going to ruin your life because there are laws he can hammer you with that you've never even heard of before.

It is astonishing that you think this is a partisan issue. From the New Deal to the War on Drugs to the Contract with America, and beyond, the one guaranteed things is more lines added to the code. Doesn't matter if it is Republican or Democrat. Republicans love adding many and various loopholes to the tax code, and so do Democrats. The tax code alone should be one page, these are the percentages. Not "I'm a family owned horticulture collective". Not "I'm an oil and gas company, I shouldn't have to take the same business risks as every other company". Not "I'm gonna build a big warehouse in your area, give me breaks."

Additionally, we wouldn't need lots of entries if people weren't complete and utter aholes. We wouldn't need an FDA if it weren't for the fact that so many people are perfectly fine selling lemon seeds as a cure for AIDS. Or selling people accounts that they never opened. Or fraudulently dealing with every citizen.

Usury laws are necessary because nobody should get pushed into a 70% APR. Zoning laws are necessary so somebody doesn't open an auto body shop next door to my house.

Love to have a conversation about which laws you'd like repealed, maybe that can be a thread.


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Bad laws should be ignored

Great, glad you agree. Immigration laws are bad laws, therefore we can ignore them.


Seriati

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2020, 02:03:54 PM »
So then you obviously opposed Trump when he did his end run around the Congressional authority about asylum?

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In the Immigrant Nationality Act, Congress established that the U.S. can enter into “safe third country” agreements with other nations. The agreement would make it so that the third country would process asylum claims instead of the U.S. Though Trump has discussed establishing third country agreements with Guatemala and Mexico, only one agreement currently exists and it’s with Canada.

“So this is actually a run around of the safe third country agreement,” Kennji Kizuka, Senior Researcher and Policy Analyst at Human Rights First, tells TIME. “Instead of reaching one of those agreements, what the administration is doing is punting people back to any third country that they potentially have passed through.”

“From our view, Congress already laid out the procedures to address asylum seekers who have passed through third countries or who have already been granted some form of protection or status in another country, and this isn’t it, this violates what Congress wrote out in the statute already,” Kizuka added.

Not sure why you think we don't have safe third party agreements other than with Canada, they've been widely publicized.  Do you think they are defective?

Here's a link to a Vox article from last calendar year acknowledging 3 such agreements.  https://www.vox.com/2019/9/26/20870768/trump-agreement-honduras-guatemala-el-salvador-explained

The actual law on this from another Vox article opposed to the agreements:

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Paragraph (1) [who may apply for asylum, quoted above] shall not apply to an alien if the Attorney General determines that the alien may be removed, pursuant to a bilateral or multilateral agreement, to a country… in which the alien’s life or freedom would not be threatened on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion, and where the alien would have access to a full and fair procedure for determining a claim to asylum or equivalent temporary protection…”

The agreements don't have to be treaties.  The liberal left lawyers' complaint is that under the process immigrants don't get the years of delays and living in the US to pursue their claims because they typically go home or resettle in the country that's holding them when it becomes clear they won't get into the US. But that's not a failure of due process as they allege.  It's actual the exact right level of due process under the law.

The law - as written by Congress - makes the AG's determination of safety unreviewable by the courts, as are many asylum judgements (notwithstanding that judges have routinely made up their own basis for reviewing the unreviewable).

Mexico never ended up with such an agreement.  Instead after much negotiation they massively increased their limits on travel across their Southern border and Trump instituted the remain in Mexico policy.  That policy was overturned by a 9th Circuit district judge nationwide, then the 9th Circuit agreed with that judge but partially overturned the order's national scope and limited it to the 9th Circuit, and then the SC  put a stay on the original injunction that the 9th Circuit had partially affirmed, which means the Trump admin was allowed to enforce the policy while litigation is ongoing.

My strong assumption is that Biden is going to try and moot the issue, because if the SC rules here he probably would not like the result.  Not to mention, the SC was asked - again - to clarify that district court judges do not have the authority to issue nationwide injunctions.  Biden might actually like that, as it'll prevent a district judge in the Fifth circuit, for example, from stopping his policies cold nationwide.  Of course, the media will be all over that judge in a way they've completely not been with the leftist partisan judges.

Seriati

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2020, 02:17:01 PM »
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Officers can decide arbitrarily when to let someone off with a warning versus the hassle of arresting them.

Why give them the option? If its an obsolete or outright bad law, it needs to be removed from the code books. Unless you think Police need more tools for harassing the population at large?

Seriously, why leave laws on the books that are just for harassing people or giving police who want to arrest someone a basis that is hard to dispute?

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Do you know the size of the federal code? There are 4000 to 5000 statutes. Are you under the illusion that they are all being enforced without discretion?

I don't think most of those codes should be enforced, I think they should be streamlined and remove the ones that are no longer needed. Except that runs counter to the Democrat's dream of a bureaucratic super-state, which requires a byzantine set of on obscure and obsolete and often contradictory laws in order to be able to solidify its supremacy over everything else. Make the Administrator happy or he's going to ruin your life because there are laws he can hammer you with that you've never even heard of before.

QFT.  The goal of the left is to create a system so arbitrary and complicated that no matter what someone does a zealous prosecutor can put them in jail, meanwhile, those in the know can commit actual crimes with impunity.  That kind of arbitrary enforcement is completely contrary to justice, that's true whether is a young black man being harassed by the police or a Trump admin official who's being investigated solely because he works for Trump.

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I'm not sure if you were one of them, but there have been people on this board applauding Sheriffs who refuse to enforce gun legislation.

Bad laws should be ignored, and removed as soon as practical. Your point is? At what point did the people applauding those Sheriffs advocate for keeping those bad laws on the books?

Most anti-gun legislation is unConstitutional.  County Sheriffs are charged with the duty to enforce the Constitution over the laws that conflict with it.  Why would you think there's something wrong in that scenario?  In fact, the very idea that you are advocating represents a completely flawed understanding of legal principals and the duty to faithfully enforce the laws.  That duty requires that a Sheriff not enforce unConstitutional laws.

A Sheriff that enforces a violation of religious freedom or free speech is doing just as much wrong.  A Sheriff that ignores the Constitutional limits on searches without probable cause is too.

The difference is between a law that is categorically unConstitutional (most gun laws that Sheriffs refuse to enforce, and the Constitution is their stated basis) and one that is not.  Discretion exists for determining on an "as applied" basis laws that are in fact constitutional.  DACA is whole other issue, where the law on immigration is clear and constitutional, and the "policy" directly violates it.

TheDrake

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2020, 03:21:31 PM »
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The difference is between a law that is categorically unConstitutional (most gun laws that Sheriffs refuse to enforce, and the Constitution is their stated basis) and one that is not.  Discretion exists for determining on an "as applied" basis laws that are in fact constitutional. 

So a rando Sherriff gets to override his state Supreme Court, and SCOTUS, based on his own personal interpretation? I'm sure they are quite the legal scholars and choose to be sheriffs despite holding a JD.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2020, 03:03:52 AM »
Here's a nice summary of Biden on the border and on illegal immigration which he will for all practical purposes legalize.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/biden-foolish-immigration-priorities-034554415.html

I saw no mention in the article of Covid-19 but I'll throw that in there as well. Trump's immigration policies must have to some extent reduced the spread of Covid-19 in Latin America and to the United States for all the good it did anyone anyway since it's pretty much out of control in both places. It's hard to imagine that Biden's policies could make the Covid situation any worse than it already is but encouraging the restart of the migrant caravans seems like one of the best ways to do exactly that.

Ouija Nightmare

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2020, 09:22:04 AM »
Here's a nice summary of Biden on the border and on illegal immigration which he will for all practical purposes legalize.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/biden-foolish-immigration-priorities-034554415.html

I saw no mention in the article of Covid-19 but I'll throw that in there as well. Trump's immigration policies must have to some extent reduced the spread of Covid-19 in Latin America and to the United States for all the good it did anyone anyway since it's pretty much out of control in both places. It's hard to imagine that Biden's policies could make the Covid situation any worse than it already is but encouraging the restart of the migrant caravans seems like one of the best ways to do exactly that.

Got anything that isn’t an opinion piece? You call that a summary...it’s just a political hit piece.

As for COVID-19, it’s going away soon, so I’ve heard from my President. That’s a nonissue.

yossarian22c

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2020, 09:29:03 AM »
Here's a nice summary of Biden on the border and on illegal immigration which he will for all practical purposes legalize.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/biden-foolish-immigration-priorities-034554415.html

I saw no mention in the article of Covid-19 but I'll throw that in there as well. Trump's immigration policies must have to some extent reduced the spread of Covid-19 in Latin America and to the United States for all the good it did anyone anyway since it's pretty much out of control in both places. It's hard to imagine that Biden's policies could make the Covid situation any worse than it already is but encouraging the restart of the migrant caravans seems like one of the best ways to do exactly that.

Got anything that isn’t an opinion piece? You call that a summary...it’s just a political hit piece.

As for COVID-19, it’s going away soon, so I’ve heard from my President. That’s a nonissue.

Cherry has been an outspoken critic of the president on COVID so that tongue in cheek response doesn't quite land.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #60 on: November 16, 2020, 09:45:12 AM »
I was for masks even before Trump was against them. Having spent a couple of years in Asia the way mask wearing was common and perfectly acceptable already left a good impression on me. In a pandemic like this one as well as the last one they are just common sense.

TheDrake

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #61 on: November 16, 2020, 01:26:35 PM »
a "nice summary"? Whoever wrote it seems barely literate.

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With the agreements with Mexico and Central American in suspended animation during the pandemic, Title 42 is necessary stopgap that Biden will come under intense pressure from pro-immigration groups to reverse.

It is truly terrible that the agreement with "Central American" avoids "necessary stopgap". If words were a salad, this would be ambrosia.

Seriati

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #62 on: November 19, 2020, 11:22:20 AM »
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The difference is between a law that is categorically unConstitutional (most gun laws that Sheriffs refuse to enforce, and the Constitution is their stated basis) and one that is not.  Discretion exists for determining on an "as applied" basis laws that are in fact constitutional. 

So a rando Sherriff gets to override his state Supreme Court, and SCOTUS, based on his own personal interpretation? I'm sure they are quite the legal scholars and choose to be sheriffs despite holding a JD.

Lol, again read what I said.  Quit jousting with windmills and strawmen. 

Unless you can point to the Sheriff that was enforcing or not enforcing a specific order that in fact was decided in the Supreme Court.  Answer you can't, the SC's jurisprudence on gun control is very sparse overtime.  And yes, interpretation of the law to the citizens in the county is literally the job of a sheriff.

yossarian22c

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #63 on: November 19, 2020, 11:27:38 AM »
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The difference is between a law that is categorically unConstitutional (most gun laws that Sheriffs refuse to enforce, and the Constitution is their stated basis) and one that is not.  Discretion exists for determining on an "as applied" basis laws that are in fact constitutional. 

So a rando Sherriff gets to override his state Supreme Court, and SCOTUS, based on his own personal interpretation? I'm sure they are quite the legal scholars and choose to be sheriffs despite holding a JD.

Lol, again read what I said.  Quit jousting with windmills and strawmen. 

Unless you can point to the Sheriff that was enforcing or not enforcing a specific order that in fact was decided in the Supreme Court.  Answer you can't, the SC's jurisprudence on gun control is very sparse overtime.  And yes, interpretation of the law to the citizens in the county is literally the job of a sheriff.

So a sheriff can refuse to enforce a law he deems unconstitutional unless the SC has directly ruled on that individual law?

Seriati

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #64 on: November 19, 2020, 11:28:13 AM »
Here's a nice summary of Biden on the border and on illegal immigration which he will for all practical purposes legalize.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/biden-foolish-immigration-priorities-034554415.html

I saw no mention in the article of Covid-19 but I'll throw that in there as well. Trump's immigration policies must have to some extent reduced the spread of Covid-19 in Latin America and to the United States for all the good it did anyone anyway since it's pretty much out of control in both places. It's hard to imagine that Biden's policies could make the Covid situation any worse than it already is but encouraging the restart of the migrant caravans seems like one of the best ways to do exactly that.

Got anything that isn’t an opinion piece? You call that a summary...it’s just a political hit piece.

It's pretty much Biden's policy, why do you think its a hit piece?   Were you somehow not aware of what Biden's team intends to do?  It's almost like somehow, mysteriously, you're underinformed about the actual policies of a person who just campaigned for President and was elected.  I wonder how that could have happened.

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As for COVID-19, it’s going away soon, so I’ve heard from my President. That’s a nonissue.

Lucky for us Trump really did break ground and records in getting a vaccine developed.  Lucky for Biden the media chose to lie about it and big Pharma deliberately concealed the success prior to the vote.  Couldn't have people knowing about Biden's lies on Trump's COVID success prior to casting their votes.

Seriati

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #65 on: November 19, 2020, 11:30:43 AM »
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The difference is between a law that is categorically unConstitutional (most gun laws that Sheriffs refuse to enforce, and the Constitution is their stated basis) and one that is not.  Discretion exists for determining on an "as applied" basis laws that are in fact constitutional. 

So a rando Sherriff gets to override his state Supreme Court, and SCOTUS, based on his own personal interpretation? I'm sure they are quite the legal scholars and choose to be sheriffs despite holding a JD.

Lol, again read what I said.  Quit jousting with windmills and strawmen. 

Unless you can point to the Sheriff that was enforcing or not enforcing a specific order that in fact was decided in the Supreme Court.  Answer you can't, the SC's jurisprudence on gun control is very sparse overtime.  And yes, interpretation of the law to the citizens in the county is literally the job of a sheriff.

So a sheriff can refuse to enforce a law he deems unconstitutional unless the SC has directly ruled on that individual law?

Quoted for deliberate misrepresentation.  Quit trying to mischaracterize to the point of lying.

TheDrake is the one that introduced a FAKE HYPOTHETICAL whereby a local Sheriff overrules the SC.  It has never happened, its not happening now and it has no relevance to the discussion.


msquared

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #66 on: November 19, 2020, 11:32:15 AM »
So the pharma companies held back results, even though the timing of the results is almost exactly what they said they would be way back in the start. The only person giving better timing was the President, and he was not the one making the vaccine or doing the trials.

yeah, going to need some sources on that claim.

Seriati

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #67 on: November 19, 2020, 11:40:12 AM »
So the pharma companies held back results, even though the timing of the results is almost exactly what they said they would be way back in the start.

It's just a fact that the first announcement of results came from a data run conducted after the election and reported within the same week.  That run was scheduled to be made earlier where it would have been reported in mid October.  Hmmm... Imagine what a 90% effective vaccince report connected to Warp Speed would have done to the election.  The Biden campaign only really pushed 2 issues, and undermining the "Trump failed on COVID" meme would likely have titled the election. 

Is it any wonder that Biden's campaign was meeting with big pharma and pressuring them not to make announcements?

Is it any surprise that Fauci refused to say any positive about vaccines until after the votes were cast, when he suddenly started being much more public and positive on how soon it will be ready?

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yeah, going to need some sources on that claim.

Why?  No one is willing to believe anything that they don't already agree with on these topics.  How about you actually learn about something about the topic before setting your opinion in stone?

yossarian22c

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2020, 11:47:12 AM »
You:
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Most anti-gun legislation is unConstitutional.  County Sheriffs are charged with the duty to enforce the Constitution over the laws that conflict with it.  Why would you think there's something wrong in that scenario?
Me:
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So a sheriff can refuse to enforce a law he deems unconstitutional unless the SC has directly ruled on that individual law?
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Quoted for deliberate misrepresentation.  Quit trying to mischaracterize to the point of lying.

That was an honest question. It was your assertion that gun control laws are unconstitutional. If the SC or a court has struck down the law then I would expect the sheriffs not to enforce it. But you said they have a duty to enforce the Constitution over laws that conflict with it. Once a law is struck down its not the law anymore. So in the interim of a court decision who gets to determine if there is a conflict between the law and the constitution if not the courts? It seems to be your claim that the sheriff has both the right and the duty to do so.


yossarian22c

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #69 on: November 19, 2020, 11:57:15 AM »
And I'm not wholly unsympathetic to the argument that law enforcement should refuse to enforce bad laws. But I also understand this opens a whole can of worms that we probably don't want. So I also agree that its much better for society to get rid of bad laws that shouldn't be enforced rather than depend on law enforcement and DAs to ignore laws that are that bad/unconstitutional or out of date.


TheDrake

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #70 on: November 19, 2020, 12:23:51 PM »
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The difference is between a law that is categorically unConstitutional (most gun laws that Sheriffs refuse to enforce, and the Constitution is their stated basis) and one that is not.  Discretion exists for determining on an "as applied" basis laws that are in fact constitutional. 

So a rando Sherriff gets to override his state Supreme Court, and SCOTUS, based on his own personal interpretation? I'm sure they are quite the legal scholars and choose to be sheriffs despite holding a JD.

Lol, again read what I said.  Quit jousting with windmills and strawmen. 

Unless you can point to the Sheriff that was enforcing or not enforcing a specific order that in fact was decided in the Supreme Court.  Answer you can't, the SC's jurisprudence on gun control is very sparse overtime.  And yes, interpretation of the law to the citizens in the county is literally the job of a sheriff.

So a sheriff can refuse to enforce a law he deems unconstitutional unless the SC has directly ruled on that individual law?

Quoted for deliberate misrepresentation.  Quit trying to mischaracterize to the point of lying.

TheDrake is the one that introduced a FAKE HYPOTHETICAL whereby a local Sheriff overrules the SC.  It has never happened, its not happening now and it has no relevance to the discussion.

You really think so? Should we start with local sheriffs who refused to enforce integration? I will say there are sheriffs who say if the Supreme Court rules they'll start enforcing it. So I'll back off that extreme statement and say that that is also not how it works. If any court rules, that stands until it gets appealed. So when your Circuit Court says "that's constitutional" that is also more definitive than the sheriffs own personal views, and he should obey the rule of law.

But all the face mask and epidemic stuff got covered 100 years ago already.

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Typical is the Supreme Court of Arizona’s pronouncement, “Necessity is the law of time and place, and the emergency calls into life the necessity … to exercise the power to protect the public health.” In 1905, the U.S. Supreme Court had called for just such deference in Jacobson v. Massachusetts. In the midst of a small-pox outbreak, local authorities could mandate vaccination on penalty of a fine for refusal: “Upon the principle of self-defense, of paramount necessity, a community has the right to protect itself against an epidemic of disease which threatens the safety of its members.”

If such an officer disagrees with the courts of this land and defies them (talkin to you Arapio), they ought resign.

rightleft22

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #71 on: November 19, 2020, 12:26:05 PM »
So the pharma companies held back results, even though the timing of the results is almost exactly what they said they would be way back in the start.

It's just a fact that the first announcement of results came from a data run conducted after the election and reported within the same week.  That run was scheduled to be made earlier where it would have been reported in mid October.  Hmmm... Imagine what a 90% effective vaccince report connected to Warp Speed would have done to the election.  The Biden campaign only really pushed 2 issues, and undermining the "Trump failed on COVID" meme would likely have titled the election. 

Is it any wonder that Biden's campaign was meeting with big pharma and pressuring them not to make announcements?

Is it any surprise that Fauci refused to say any positive about vaccines until after the votes were cast, when he suddenly started being much more public and positive on how soon it will be ready?

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yeah, going to need some sources on that claim.

Why?  No one is willing to believe anything that they don't already agree with on these topics.  How about you actually learn about something about the topic before setting your opinion in stone?

Interesting... Big Pharma typically prefer Republican administrations. - Less regulation and accountability.   

NobleHunter

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #72 on: November 19, 2020, 12:33:11 PM »
Also worth noting that the first announcement about a 90% effective vaccine had nothing to do with Trump or Operation Warp Speed since that company didn't take government money.

Seriati

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #73 on: November 19, 2020, 12:34:31 PM »
It's funny, because if you read this "Fact Check" on the delay in the COVID results with an honest skepticism, you see through its conclusion that there is no evidence of manipulation to delay results past the election.  There are many actions that they directly report that were taken deliberately to ensure that the results did not post in October. 

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/fact-check-no-evidence-supports-trump-s-claim-covid-19-vaccine-result-was-suppressed

Some things covered.  Pfizer's CEO projected at the end of September results by late October.  Keep reading and its clear that the original testing threshhold (32) was hit in October and that the FDA and Pfizer knew it and deliberately stopped testing samples to avoid reporting it.

When the "fact checker" references Pfizer to claim that there was no political motive to their decision, pay attention to how often they both reference the FDA's involvement and ignore the politics at the FDA.  The FDA staff despise Trump, that's been an ongoing issue since the day he was elected, and the FDA has attempted to interfere with and road block an effective COVID response again and again (remember the whole mess with the failed testing process?).  The fact checker goes to great lengths to bury when Pfizer hit the 32 case threshhold - it was in October with plenty of time to meet the reporting timeline.  But they do cite to, but ignore the implications of, multiple FDA initiated rules changes and policy discussions targetted at the forcing vaccine producers to the delay of reports until after election day, including FDA initiated suggestions of requiring a higher threshhold before the preliminary results are reviewed (note - this report was not the approval - but rather an interim report to indicate if an exceptional approval process could start).  So despite a full court press by the media of the death toll of COVID and how Trump was killing us by ignoring the crisis, the FDA was, once again, working behind the scenes to deliberately delay reporting on and approval of the vaccines.  Pfizer agreed to switch to a 64 case report, which threshhold they also hit before the election, but the FDA mandated process forced Pfizer not to even test the samples they had collected.  So Pfizer deliberately delayed testing swabs -as testing them would have mandated a required report that would have been public before the election - so they wouldn't have to confirm that the vaccine had hit a much higher threshhold than the FDA required for early approval.  Don't confuse yourself on this, the company and the FDA were already aware of that effectiveness rate, they keep those numbers "unofficially" real time.

The panic at the FDA was obvious when Pfizer doubled down on being able to have results by the end of October and they moved to hard code a rule to prevent it.  "To increase confidence in the safety of these vaccines, the FDA revision—which the Trump administration attempted to block—said that before a company applied for an EUA, 2 months must have passed since at least half of the participants in a trial had received their final shot."  That's how the "fact checker" talked about a NEW RULE the FDA decided to implement that has the "unintended" consequence of just so happening to discourage any preliminary testing until after the election.  Hows that work?  By preventing the application for the EUA, the FDA removed any incentive for the early testing, why would a Company run early on a higher threshhold for success rather than wait and get more statistical power and a lower success measure - as set by the FDA.  This prompted the company to file a request to change the plan to a higher threshhold for test results - all the while - sitting on samples untested that would have crossed both the old and the new threshhold that mandated reporting.

I love this unexamined quote below.    Seems pretty open and shut, but in case you have doubts take a look at what the FDA did in this paragraph.

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When the companies submitted their request for a protocol change, they had yet to accumulate 32 cases. If they had 32 cases before the change was approved, the protocol would have required them to report the results to FDA.  In addition, if the results could impact the way investors traded company stock, they may also have been required by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) to make the results public. They decided to store the nasal swabs taken from participants who had suspected SARS-CoV-2 infections: If they didn’t test the swabs, they couldn’t confirm cases and therefore would avoid a protocol violation. On 3 November,  FDA approved the protocol changes and the companies assumed the trial was crossing the 62-case mark. It then took several days to check the stored samples—and they also had new ones coming in that they could test, too. Combined, these samples led to the 94 cases presented to the DMC on 8 November. (The results were publicly announced the next day.)

So read that clearly.  The approved protocols required reporting at 32 cases, which Pfizer likely had so they stopped testing the swabs in their possession to avoid making that report.  That report would have been public and in October.  Instead, Pfizer sat on its tests, and filed an application to "change the protocols" that required the FDA sign onto it, effectively creating a holding pattern where they deliberately did nothing - despite the protocols requiring that they make a report.  And the FDA?  The FDA approves the change to the protocol and the end of the holding patter on Nov. 3.  Remind me again, what day did we vote for President?  There's zero chance that the FDA didn't deliberately time that, they hate Trump and that Nov. 3 approval date is their great spit in the eye of Trump as they manipulated the election by deliberately undercutting the reports.

It took less than 5 days from the FDA's "approval" to test and report on swabs that had deliberately not been tested because it would have required a report be issued, to announce those initial 90+% effective.  You'll note this isn't an isolated case, multiple vaccine producers all magically hit their targets right after the election, after the FDA "nonpolitical" manipulation.  "The press release on 9 November noted the trial had so far tallied 94 cases out of 43,538 participants" that's well above the 32 threshold, or even the 64.  If you believe they didn't have 32 in October you're wilfully deluding yourself.

I note the fact checker put this correction on, in case you have lingering doubts about the 32 case threshhold:  "The story initially said that Pfizer knew it had crossed the 62-case threshold on 3 November. Pfizer has clarified to ScienceInsider that the company assumed it was close to or beyond 62 cases on 3 November, but did not have an actual number of confirmations on that date."  The only reason they didn't know for sure is that they stopped processing results to ensure they wouldn't cross the mandatory threshholds before the FDA issued it's new "approval." 

Not sure how much clearer you'd need a case to be without access to the internal processes and documents.  I have enough personal contacts at the FDA to be very certain that they have and would do everything within their bureaucratic authority to slow walk results and undermine Trump's re-election.  They cloak themselves in claims that they are defending medicine but the results were 100% purpose driven for political malice.   But like everything in the deep state they aren't going to write down that they make a decision to hurt Trump, they're going to coach it in plausible sounding reasons.  At some point, you have to wake up and acknowledge that the reasons on the paper aren't the motivation, they're artifice.

Seriati

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2020, 12:36:34 PM »
Interesting... Big Pharma typically prefer Republican administrations. - Less regulation and accountability.

Big Pharma prefers establishment politicians period.  They're looking for politicians that they can buy and rely upon to be bought.  That's not actually, and surprisingly, not Trump.

Seriati

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #75 on: November 19, 2020, 12:40:22 PM »
Also worth noting that the first announcement about a 90% effective vaccine had nothing to do with Trump or Operation Warp Speed since that company didn't take government money.

So Pfizer's nearly $2B deal to sell the vaccine to the government - signed in July as part of Operation Warp Speed - is consistent with your claim?  Pfizer didn't accept research money, they absolutely were developing to be a recipient of Operation Warp Speed.  Pfizer itself even clarified that they are part of Operation Warp Speed.

LetterRip

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #76 on: November 19, 2020, 12:45:46 PM »
Seriati,

https://apnews.com/article/ap-fact-check-joe-biden-donald-trump-politics-coronavirus-pandemic-76d1580f82b1586b207990396c1e3b5f

So Warp Speed had zilch to do with it.

Specifically Warp Speed participants get paid regardless, Pfizer is contingent on a functional vaccine.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 12:48:14 PM by LetterRip »

Seriati

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #77 on: November 19, 2020, 12:59:12 PM »
If any court rules, that stands until it gets appealed. So when your Circuit Court says "that's constitutional" that is also more definitive than the sheriffs own personal views, and he should obey the rule of law.

Not how courts work.  Federal Courts at the District Court level can only decide the case in front of them.  If a Sheriff arrests people in violation of law, the District Court can release them.  The District Court can enjoin a future violation in limited circumstances.  There's a been gross expansion of court authority in the last 30 years that pretends that District Courts can order anything, including positive requirements on any one and anywhere.  That's actually a Constitutional violation in its own right.

It's really moot though.  The District Courts can do nothing about a lack of enforcement.  Why do you think Antifa can commit violence and never face charges?  It's not because the police won't arrest them or the courts wouldn't convict them, it's completely because the prosecutors refuse to prosecute their political allies.  Absent another prosecutor's office becoming involved - which is rare because our system wasn't designed with overlapping authority - there's no recourse.

This is why activist judges are so dangerous.  They'll look at that situation decide it's unjust and craft a new authority to do "something" about it, but they only do that when the system seems unjust under their personal politics.  So you get a national order on immigration issues that are exclusively in the President's authority, or an illegal order to a Nevada Sheriff directing that he can't apply the law, but none of them order say Seattle to break up an insurrection or any one of dozens of DNC prosecutors to apply the law to punish rioters.

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If such an officer disagrees with the courts of this land and defies them (talkin to you Arapio), they ought resign.

We're not a country of slaves.  Judges that get repeatedly overruled should be removed from the bench, yet instead, we have activist lawyers playing with dockets to get in front of activist judges who routinely abuse their authority in the full knowledge that appeals are expensive, time consuming and even when warranted not always taken up.

In the meantime, I suggest that if you hold your Constitutional rights with such little concern that you'd let an activist Judge violate them (when you'd throw a giant tantrum if it were the police doing so, a Republican politician doing so, a religious leader, or a local mayor doing so) then you may not deserve to have them.  Why don't you know when a judge is issuing an order that violates the Constitution?  It shouldn't be a matter of arcana that it takes nine old people in robes to divine.  And in fact it's not, the reason it seems to be is that we have so many people who are actively trying to take your rights away and so much loyalty to "team" that we ignore it when its the "good guys" that we're losing more rights every day.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #78 on: November 19, 2020, 12:59:56 PM »
I'm sure Trump's plan to allow Americans to buy drugs made abroad at drastically lower prices than what the big Pharma monopoly forces them to pay at home had nothing to do with companies like Pfizer preferring a Biden presidency. Speaking of which, when Biden assumes power I wonder if Americans will ever see the lower drug prices that international competition will foster or if the Democrats only believe in allowing cheaper labor into America, not cheaper drugs.

yossarian22c

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #79 on: November 19, 2020, 01:06:06 PM »
I'm sure Trump's plan to allow Americans to buy drugs made abroad at drastically lower prices than what the big Pharma monopoly forces them to pay at home had nothing to do with companies like Pfizer preferring a Biden presidency. Speaking of which, when Biden assumes power I wonder if Americans will ever see the lower drug prices that international competition will foster or if the Democrats only believe in allowing cheaper labor into America, not cheaper drugs.

Or Republicans could just stop their objections to Medicaid and Medicare negotiating better drug prices on behalf of the country. Which is how all those other countries get their better prices. Shipping the medicines overseas and then buying them back is an inefficient workaround. Also it will lead to people buying from fraudulent sellers at some point.

Seriati

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #80 on: November 19, 2020, 01:08:24 PM »
Seriati,

https://apnews.com/article/ap-fact-check-joe-biden-donald-trump-politics-coronavirus-pandemic-76d1580f82b1586b207990396c1e3b5f

So Warp Speed had zilch to do with it.

Specifically Warp Speed participants get paid regardless, Pfizer is contingent on a functional vaccine.

You make me tired.  See my prior post, nothing about this is in disagreement with what I said.  Pfizer is participating in Warp Speed by signing a deal that is funded through Warp Speed's guarantees.  If we didn't have Warp Speed we'd have to have had a special act - lets call it the Trump was right and you were wrong Act - to sign that contract with Pfizer.  I never claimed that Pfizer took research money.

This is such pettiness, an inability to give any credit where its due, and a need to try and exploit any technicality - at all - to claim a major shift.  It's just a fact that every major biotech with the ability was going to be developing a COVID vaccine.  It's just a fact that there's big dollars out there available.  It's just a fact that Operation Warp Speed created a guarantee program that meant that even if a Pfizer competitor was first to market with a more available vaccine, Pfizer was still guaranteed a payment of nearly their entire sunk costs.  You don't think a program that provides funds widely and guaranties a market even if others develop a better cheaper product is relevant?  You don't think Pfizer was aware of the power from the minute Warp Speed was discussed and then went into force?

Do you have any understanding - at all - of market incentives?  Of the risks that developing a vaccine in a flooded market create for companies where there are significant sunk cost?

Seriati

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #81 on: November 19, 2020, 01:12:15 PM »
Or Republicans could just stop their objections to Medicaid and Medicare negotiating better drug prices on behalf of the country. Which is how all those other countries get their better prices. Shipping the medicines overseas and then buying them back is an inefficient workaround. Also it will lead to people buying from fraudulent sellers at some point.

Or Democrats could stop proposing solutions without addressing their problems, since that's what's behind virtually the entire mess in the first place.  Nothing like creating a new problem with your solution to ensure that government needs to keep getting bigger.

yossarian22c

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #82 on: November 19, 2020, 01:16:53 PM »
You make me tired.  See my prior post, nothing about this is in disagreement with what I said.  Pfizer is participating in Warp Speed by signing a deal that is funded through Warp Speed's guarantees.  If we didn't have Warp Speed we'd have to have had a special act - lets call it the Trump was right and you were wrong Act - to sign that contract with Pfizer.  I never claimed that Pfizer took research money.
...
Do you have any understanding - at all - of market incentives?  Of the risks that developing a vaccine in a flooded market create for companies where there are significant sunk cost?

Trump got one thing right in the pandemic. He helped fund vaccine research and made guaranteed purchases of potential vaccines so the USA could get them early. This is the one area he did what the rest of the developed world did instead of sticking his head in the sand and saying it would disappear like a miracle.

We should give him a great retirement package back to Mar-A-Lago where he can relax and play golf as much as he wants for not being a complete idiot about vaccine research and funding.

DonaldD

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #83 on: November 19, 2020, 01:26:07 PM »
Trump got one thing right in the pandemic. He helped fund vaccine research and made guaranteed purchases of potential vaccines so the USA could get them early. This is the one area he did what the rest of the developed world did instead of sticking his head in the sand and saying it would disappear like a miracle.

This.

Funding and putting together a program to streamline and promote vaccine development was literally the least he could have done - and it is what every other country in the world was also doing.  Demanding he get a Scooby Snack for this huge effort and foresight is silly.

rightleft22

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #84 on: November 19, 2020, 01:31:57 PM »
Or Republicans could just stop their objections to Medicaid and Medicare negotiating better drug prices on behalf of the country. Which is how all those other countries get their better prices. Shipping the medicines overseas and then buying them back is an inefficient workaround. Also it will lead to people buying from fraudulent sellers at some point.

Or Democrats could stop proposing solutions without addressing their problems, since that's what's behind virtually the entire mess in the first place.  Nothing like creating a new problem with your solution to ensure that government needs to keep getting bigger.

Depends on how you define 'big government' From the fanatical perspective government get bigger under republicans while providing less for the money

Seriati

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #85 on: November 19, 2020, 01:46:40 PM »
Trump got one thing right in the pandemic. He helped fund vaccine research and made guaranteed purchases of potential vaccines so the USA could get them early. This is the one area he did what the rest of the developed world did instead of sticking his head in the sand and saying it would disappear like a miracle.

This.

Funding and putting together a program to streamline and promote vaccine development was literally the least he could have done - and it is what every other country in the world was also doing.  Demanding he get a Scooby Snack for this huge effort and foresight is silly.

You two should be embarrassed.  The full extent of what Trump did to get the US response to COVID where it is actually stunning.  Operation Warp Speed, as important as it was, is a tiny part and ultimately an easy part as it does what government does best - promise to spend a bunch of money with big corporates, little oversight and big legal protections.

Glomming onto it, because it's really undeniable, but doubling down on your fake news narrative should embarrass you at this point.  Why keep repeating lies?  Do you really think its going to make the country better to lie about Trump, lie about what Biden's done and what he's planning to do, lie about what happened inside our administrative agencies, and generally just lie, lie and lie some more?

yossarian22c

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #86 on: November 19, 2020, 02:01:02 PM »
Trump got one thing right in the pandemic. He helped fund vaccine research and made guaranteed purchases of potential vaccines so the USA could get them early. This is the one area he did what the rest of the developed world did instead of sticking his head in the sand and saying it would disappear like a miracle.

This.

Funding and putting together a program to streamline and promote vaccine development was literally the least he could have done - and it is what every other country in the world was also doing.  Demanding he get a Scooby Snack for this huge effort and foresight is silly.

You two should be embarrassed.  The full extent of what Trump did to get the US response to COVID where it is actually stunning.  Operation Warp Speed, as important as it was, is a tiny part and ultimately an easy part as it does what government does best - promise to spend a bunch of money with big corporates, little oversight and big legal protections.

You're right he deserves a ton of credit for making the statistics on those vaccine trials so much more definitive. Without having the virus spread so wide across the country we wouldn't know nearly as soon or with as much certainty that the vaccines are effective.

Quote
Glomming onto it, because it's really undeniable, but doubling down on your fake news narrative should embarrass you at this point.  Why keep repeating lies? ...

What lies did I repeat?
I'll even parse out my factual statements for you.
1) Trump/government rightly funded vaccine research.
2) Trump/government rightly made guaranteed purchases of proposed vaccines.
3) The rest of the developed world did similar things with vaccine research.
4) Trump said the virus would disappear like a miracle.

NobleHunter

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #87 on: November 19, 2020, 02:05:57 PM »
I'll agree that supporting vaccine research is small part of the Trump's response to COVID. Given how the US's experience with COVID is going, Trump's efforts are stunning but not in the way you think.

TheDrake

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #88 on: November 19, 2020, 03:29:31 PM »
I don't know about least he can do, but what he didn't do:

1. Support social distancing
2. Support mask wearing
3. Centralize equipment and supply acquisition nationally
4. Support local decisions to close businesses
5. Support local decisions to reduce mass gathering
6. Help people take the threat seriously
7. Support CDC recommendations for reopening, including schools
8. Centralize and coordinate contact tracing
9. Block travel from Europe soon enough

These aren't pie in the sky dreams, many other nations did all of these with better results.

LetterRip

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #89 on: November 19, 2020, 03:45:42 PM »
Seriati,

Germany and every other EU country and probably all but China and Russia would be interested in a functioning vaccine by Pfrizer.  The US expressing interest had zero impact on the vaccine development it was well under way long before the US agreement.

So there is a absolutely no reason to credit the Trump administration for its development.

Also funding vaccine development was something rather obvious given that most major countries were doing so well before the US announced Warp Speed.

LetterRip

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #90 on: November 19, 2020, 05:05:36 PM »
Seriati,

the US might get access to the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine sooner than those countries who haven't made a purchase commitment in advance.  So for that the Trump admin gets credit similar to other countries made such purchase agreements.

Seriati

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #91 on: November 19, 2020, 05:18:11 PM »
Again, it's like a bad joke around here these days.   You can find many quotes from Trump, from the WhiteHouse and from the administration undermining virtually everything you guys just claimed.  The Trump admin followed the professional guidance on the mask mandate and social distancing and repeatedly referred people to the official resources.  It's not his fault that the guidance jumped around so much.  I mean - for example - Fauci repeatedly asserting that masks wouldn't help early on and then changing his position later (my own view on that was that he always expected they'd help but he was trying to prevent the population from buying out the limited supply so that medical professionals could acquire it - up to you if you think that lie was worth it, knowing full well that none of you give Trump himself any good faith leeway on such things). 

There are no identifiable benefits from "centralizing equipment and supply" other than those that were realized by the Trump admin.  The Trump administration pressed industry nationwide to deliver results and supplies and they did so at a pace that exceeds historical performance.  What exactly did you want?  Trump got the nation through the ventalitator "shortage" before the doctors figured out they were a mistake to use in many cases.  He broke the road block at the CDC/FDA that caused the testing delays and shortages and then took it further and decimated the roadblocks that they tried to set up to slow down emergency approval of test kits.  As a result only a handful of countries (almost all extremely rich tiny population countries) have better test penetration than the US.  Even the left governors admitted that Trump got them what they asked for, and he did it without allowing panic hoarding to disrupt the distribution.

Why would anyone support "local decisions to close businesses"?  Virtually none of those decisions were scientifically justified.  It's just a fact at this point that most closures were arbitrary and unnecesary.  Life had to change, but people were more than capable of doing it once we understood the virus enough to explain what to do.  Closing businesses, and much worse closing schools, was a mistake in most instances.  Not sure what you mean on supporting CDC reopening of schools, the CDC's position was too keep them more closed than they should have been based on the risks present and the actual harms that remote learning was causing.  Is that what you mean?  That he pushed the CDC on the excessive position it was taking on school closings?  Again, that was a good thing and something that a leader should have been doing.

Taking it seriously?  You mean calling it a matter of life and death?  Having daily press briefings until it became clear the press was going to use the time to spread misinformation?  it's one thing to read MSM lies, its another thing to internalize them to the point you think they're true.  I get how you could be confused on this, it's hard to read any left media at all that doesn't restate this lie.  How often did you check the WhiteHouse.org link or look at their Coronavirus information for yourself?  If you had you wouldn't believe this claim.

Centralizing and coordinating contact tracing?  Lol, sure, that's exactly what we need, a government program to record everywhere we go, everyone we speak to and everyone we interact with.   Nothing is going to go wrong with that (might want to take a look at AOC's calls for blacklists before you back that).  The biggest issue with contact tracing in the US is HiPaa and medical privacy.  Its a violation of that law (hmm... wonder who wrote those provisions and the policies under it) to share medical information - including a infectious disease results - without consent.  How exactly was he suppose do it?  Violate the law and do it as an autocrat - you guys love pretending he's an autocrat and would've flipped out.  Contact tracing is failing - not because of a lack of federal coordination - but because once again your fellow Americans are selfish, they lie about it literally all the time.  My community here in a blue state has a persistent problem with parents refusing to provide that information after a kid tests positive because the kid was partying and drinking alcohol illegally, adults refuse to out their friends.  Heck, we've had a two week mandatory quarantine order for months and there's not been a seconds slow down in the Facebook and Instagram pictures of people hanging all over each other, including visitors from out of state.  FB, Twitter and Instagram can manage to flag statements Trump makes that are true, but they can't be bothered to out their coronavirus quarantine violating customers.

Lol on blocking travel. Everyone of you on the left (and Biden) accused Trump of being a racist for his travel bans, and several of you called him out for his illegal ban of travel from Europe.  Nothing like being a hypocrit on calling someone else out for doing things you thought were a bad idea when they did them.

It is true that some other nations got better results (on some measures) with similar policies, but its not apples to apples.  The biggest difference is that those nations are not populated by Americans, whether its the selfish liberals who believe rules apply to other people but not themselves, or the conservative extremists who refuse to do anything that they're asked - no matter how sensible - as a matter of freedom, this country never had any ability to social distance properly.  Zero chance.  So yes, small European countries, that were more like managing a single state than a country  this big, sometimes had better results, but not consistently and NOT AS A RESULT of anything Trump could have done differently.  Heck if Trump had ordered the nation to wear masks no Democrat would have ever worn a mask again even if it killed them.


Seriati,

Germany and every other EU country and probably all but China and Russia would be interested in a functioning vaccine by Pfrizer.  The US expressing interest had zero impact on the vaccine development it was well under way long before the US agreement.

So there is a absolutely no reason to credit the Trump administration for its development.

Also funding vaccine development was something rather obvious given that most major countries were doing so well before the US announced Warp Speed.

Sure, keep telling yourself that.  Just a magic coincidence that Pfizer's costs of development were around $2Billion, and its advance sale contract under Warp Speed was around $2billion.  Never entered Pfizer's mind - at all - even in July when they signed the deal, while other companies were going full speed ahead and just as close to developing a vaccine, that the guaranty payment was material.  The history of vaccine development - absent a program like Warp Speed - is for a single company to get the vaccine contract, and where more than one is pursuing for any that drop of the pace to drop out and stop spending money because it's a sunk cost that you'll never recover if you aren't first to market.

Warp Speed literally changed that dynamic to provide incentives to all those companies to keep going to give us the best chance for a rapid result and multiple vaccines (which gives us the best chance for not discontinuing the most effective vaccine just because a good enough vaccine was first to market).  No telling how it plays out but it looks like Pfizer's may be the "first to market good enough" vaccine and others the best in class vaccines.  That is not the result from the entire history of vaccine development, but it is the result from Warp Speed.

Bet you big that any future administrations dealing with a pandemic draw deeply from the Trump play book and copy virtually all of what Trump did and leave plans like the Biden-Obama plans on the dust heap of history, even if they never admit it.  This was way too successful not to copy and they know it even if you keep falling for the false narrative.   

DonaldD

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #92 on: November 19, 2020, 05:30:29 PM »
Was it following professional guidance to mock people for wearing masks?  Was it to mock people for wearing masks (checks calendar) just 2 weeks ago?

Was having indoor parties celebrating Judge Barrett's confirmation, maskless and without distancing, following professional guidance?  What about inciting people to rise up against their state governments' directives for reducing viral spread - what part of professional guidance was he following then?  What about travelling from state to state to state, with his entourage in tow, few of whom had respect for hygienic practices either... all the while encouraging people to crowd in and avoid wearing masks.

I don't think "followed the professional guidance" means what you think it means

LetterRip

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #93 on: November 19, 2020, 06:02:33 PM »
Seriati.

 The vaccine was funded by the German government and created by a German company. The Germans gave 750 million Euro in vaccine development grants (mostly split between 2 companies - BioNTech and CureVac).

Vaccine development is fairly fixed cost.  I'm not sure why you think the US purchase agreement would have any impact at all.  They were already committed to developing the vaccine and had recruited recruited their phase 3 trial participants and medical personnel and had their phase 3 paperwork submitted prior to the US agreement.

So your theory that the US purchase agreement had any role at all is bizarre.

As to 'following Trumps playbook' - wow.  Trump did nearly everything wrong.  If the Obama admin 'playbook' had been followed then I'd expect a drastically lower infection and death rate.  It would almost be impossible to have done a worse job than Trump.




Seriati

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #94 on: November 19, 2020, 06:19:33 PM »
LetterRip, is there any point in further discussion?  I don't see your position as viable, even if you can make a technical argument.  Getting $2B from Warp Speed is a big number, it's not true to claim there's no connection when that deal was signed in July.  No one has ever disputed that Pfizer didn't take funds up front to fund the development, almost certainly as you note because they were taking funds in Germany and couldn't commit to the upfront rights on the vaccine that Warp Speed asked for.  Big whoop, it's a literal technicality that they choose to finance it in that way and to get the Warp Speed dollars on the backhand with the purchase guaranty.  What economics book did you study where a $2B guaranty doesn't incent behavior?

It's just delusion and repeating of false news to claim the Trump admin did everything wrong.  Most of what you actually blame Trump for was tied to decisions actually made by primarily blue state governors or some fantasy level of federal control that Trump doesn't have and you'd have protested if he exercised.  Why don't you quote out the Obama "playbook" provisions that weren't followed that would have resulted in those lower numbers - my guess, by the way, and maybe I'm wrong, is that you've never actually looked at the playbook and have no idea where it could have diverged or why Biden didn't put forward the specific pieces that could have been saving lives for the media to pick up and demand. 

TheDrake

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #95 on: November 19, 2020, 06:20:13 PM »
Quote
Centralizing and coordinating contact tracing?  Lol, sure, that's exactly what we need, a government program to record everywhere we go, everyone we speak to and everyone we interact with.   Nothing is going to go wrong with that (might want to take a look at AOC's calls for blacklists before you back that).  The biggest issue with contact tracing in the US is HiPaa and medical privacy.  Its a violation of that law (hmm... wonder who wrote those provisions and the policies under it) to share medical information - including a infectious disease results - without consent.

You're delusional. I'm not going to waste my breath with the rest of your insanity, so I'll limit my response to this one.

CDC: List Requirements for Protecting Health Information

Congress: COVID-19: Digital Contact Tracing and
Privacy Law


Maryland Department of Health: Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID 19):
Frequently Asked Questions About Contact Tracing


Quote
Does contact tracing damage my privacy and violate HIPAA laws?
No. Contact tracers take extreme measures to protect the privacy of infected patients and
maintain strict adherence to HIPAA regulations. During a trace investigation, a person will be
notified that they may have come into contact with an infected individual, but the infected
person’s name is not disclosed and minimal information is conveyed.

Which should be obvious to anyone with even minimal analytical skills. Contract tracers don't say "Your pastor, Bob Dobbs, has covid and you need to get tested."

Even more clear, every single state has contact tracers operating. The federal part of it would be to add funds, manpower, and interstate data sharing.


TheDeamon

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #96 on: November 20, 2020, 09:29:06 PM »
Seriati,

https://apnews.com/article/ap-fact-check-joe-biden-donald-trump-politics-coronavirus-pandemic-76d1580f82b1586b207990396c1e3b5f

So Warp Speed had zilch to do with it.

Specifically Warp Speed participants get paid regardless, Pfizer is contingent on a functional vaccine.

You make me tired.  See my prior post, nothing about this is in disagreement with what I said.  Pfizer is participating in Warp Speed by signing a deal that is funded through Warp Speed's guarantees.  If we didn't have Warp Speed we'd have to have had a special act - lets call it the Trump was right and you were wrong Act - to sign that contract with Pfizer.  I never claimed that Pfizer took research money.

This is such pettiness, an inability to give any credit where its due, and a need to try and exploit any technicality - at all - to claim a major shift.  It's just a fact that every major biotech with the ability was going to be developing a COVID vaccine.  It's just a fact that there's big dollars out there available.  It's just a fact that Operation Warp Speed created a guarantee program that meant that even if a Pfizer competitor was first to market with a more available vaccine, Pfizer was still guaranteed a payment of nearly their entire sunk costs.  You don't think a program that provides funds widely and guaranties a market even if others develop a better cheaper product is relevant?  You don't think Pfizer was aware of the power from the minute Warp Speed was discussed and then went into force?

Do you have any understanding - at all - of market incentives?  Of the risks that developing a vaccine in a flooded market create for companies where there are significant sunk cost?

You're not supposed to point out the sales guarantees(even if they sign up in the 11th hour), or the approval processes, or the distribution side.

You're only supposed to buy into the part about the government and Warp Speed not playing an active role in Pfizers development of the vaccine.

LetterRip

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #97 on: November 20, 2020, 09:58:52 PM »
My God you guys make my head hurt.  They already had contracts being negotiated with similar sales guarantees from Canada, the UK, etc.  Also how the f*ck does a sales garuntee negotiated AFTER they had done all of the work for starting stage 3 retroactively impact them doing stage 3?  Is your theory that they would have abandoned stage 3 and their other contracts if the US hadn't sought to make an order at that time?

Trump administration had zero to do with the vaccine development.  Quit pretending and trying to deceive others that it did.

TheDeamon

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #98 on: November 20, 2020, 11:26:51 PM »
Trump administration had zero to do with the vaccine development.  Quit pretending and trying to deceive others that it did.

Where did I say anything about being involved in the development directly? I actively said any involvement was indirect.

Where "Operation Warp Speed" comes into play for them is in the deployment of the drug within the United States. So it still has an impact for the United States.

LetterRip

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Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« Reply #99 on: November 21, 2020, 09:55:38 AM »
TheDaemon,

credit was being claimed for development of the vaccine.  As to deployment - US purchasing volume and ability to pay higher prices was always going to guarantee rapid access and seeking purchase agreements was something that every government that could afford to do so did.  If you think that is worthy of some special recognition or acknowledgement you have incredibly low standards.