Author Topic: TDS is a real thing  (Read 2715 times)

Fenring

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #200 on: May 14, 2019, 06:07:05 PM »
You're right about the first sentence, what I'm advocating for, but I don't think the second part follows of necessity.  I don't care when rights attach.  We all agree that born humans have rights.  All you have to do is accept that some rights attach at some point prior to birth.  It doesn't even have to be all rights, though it could be.  If it were all rights, the mother would still have a self defense related concept to "win" the conflict of rights.  If an assailant punches a pregnant woman in the belly and kills the fetus, can a prosecutor charge the assailant with murder or just with battery?

The details don't matter for the purpose of establishing that such rights may exist. But the details matter a great deal for implementation. And it's the implementation, not the theoretical argument, that pro-choicers would be concerned with. There is a procedure they want, for various reasons, and many of them will not entertain any hypothetical that dampens the chances of getting the procedure done legally. But if the procedure (fetus-killing-abortion) was made illegal for a fetus 8.5 months old, the question would of course be where the line is drawn. I'm assumng for the moment we're talking about a 'line' since otherwise it would have to begin from conception. Since in my view we don't have the medical or scientific precision to be able to draw a neat line, it would therefore be fuzzy, and certainly the grey area cases (which could envelop a two-month period depending on the developmental speed of a given fetus) would result in intense chaos in trying to determine which side of the line they're on. The delays in investigating would further muddy the issue, with any delay beyond "instantaneous" risking pushing the pregnancy past the line. And therefore the only safe line for someone who wants the current form of abortion protected would be for the line to be at birth, which is exactly what the current public position is, and it simultaneously explains why it is.

Quote
The point of my hypo above was to establish that a seven month old premie - which is highly likely to survive - has rights, its hard to see how a much more developed eight month in utero would therefore have less existence and rights in any reasonable biological sense.  Hence why viability is appealing, we know that babies born at that stage can survive and therefore are "people."   It also happens to be the first point at which we can resolve the conflict of rights other than through killing the fetus.

Your general argument is sound I wasn't actually disagreeing with it, but rather trying to explain to D.W. that I think it's *his* position that is rather uncommon. So much so, in fact, that I've never heard an IRL person declare it as their opinion.

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #201 on: May 14, 2019, 06:21:27 PM »
But the details matter a great deal for implementation.

But they don't, that's the point.  Viability is the first point at which the moral conflict can be resolved by preserving both rights, albeit with impairments.  The possibility of a resolution is what controls, not a definitive statement of when any particular right attaches.

D.W.

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #202 on: May 14, 2019, 06:50:42 PM »
Quote
ability is the first point at which the moral conflict can be resolved
And this is a moving target.  Medical science (if we choose) can change this time frame significantly.

Quote
but rather trying to explain to D.W. that I think it's *his* position that is rather uncommon.
Possibly so.  I can't imagine trying to get my position legally implemented in such a way that those involved could be trusted to guarantee the health and body sovereignty of pregnant women.  Not in this political climate anyhow.  Too much theocracy in our democracy...

scifibum

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #203 on: May 14, 2019, 07:15:25 PM »
They are a subset of the already rare 3rd trimester-and-later category which are generally to save the mother's life or remove a fetus with medical conditions that are incompatible with survival outside the womb, but not a subset that needs different rules.

That's the kind of statement that activists repeat without examination because it sounds like it should be true.  It's tough to accurately parse out, but I think it's safe to say there is no evidence that establishes that third trimester abortions are for the reasons you suggest.  The article in my quote below implies there are about 10k a year and they are likely pursued for the same reasons as other abortions.

I note, it's particularly hard to get good information about the reasons because there are legal consequences surrounding them.

That gets repeated alot, but as far as I can tell its not true.  Here's a quote from an article on the Washington Post, it's definitely not a pro life article.

Quote
“Based on limited research and discussions with researchers in the field, Dr. Foster believes that abortions for fetal anomaly ‘make up a small minority of later abortion’ and that those for life endangerment are even harder to characterize,” the report stated.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2019/02/06/tough-questions-answers-late-term-abortions-law-women-who-get-them/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.20b40d08a32c

They also imply that these abortions are roughly about 10k of the million or so annual abortions. 

There isn't good research on a lot of these questions, which always makes me wonder about the highly confident statements that get made on the topic.  In any event, it doesn't appear to me that medical reasons drive the majority of the late term abortions.

This post is a good example of why "late term" is the wrong term.

Seriati, you are confused about the article you linked. It is describing abortions in the 21st to 24th week - this is in the first paragraph - which is at the end of the 2nd trimester.

This is NOT what I was talking about. I am not confused about why 3rd trimester-into-late term abortions occur.

scifibum

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #204 on: May 14, 2019, 07:26:14 PM »
Pete, since I know you care about accurate terminology, you should avoid the term "late term abortion". A "term" pregnancy is 37 weeks or later. "Late term" is past 41 weeks. Abortions at that point are incredibly rare and do not have any significance as a category of abortions. They are a subset of the already rare 3rd trimester-and-later category which are generally to save the mother's life or remove a fetus with medical conditions that are incompatible with survival outside the womb, but not a subset that needs different rules.

In short, "late term abortion" misuses the term "late term". If it were a thing, it wouldn't be a thing that needed its own category.


41+ weeks, although rare, needs its own category because at that stage the D&X technique prevails, which is more dangerous to the mother than simple induction and birth.  The standard that you provided is an excellent rule but NARAL has fought against that rule saying "mental health" reasons should prevail even at 41+ weeks.

It doesn't need its own category when it comes to the law, and I wasn't providing a rule for when abortions can happen. Seriati helpfully proved my point about why "late term abortion" is the wrong term to use.

Fenring

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #205 on: May 14, 2019, 09:27:46 PM »
But the details matter a great deal for implementation.

But they don't, that's the point.  Viability is the first point at which the moral conflict can be resolved by preserving both rights, albeit with impairments.  The possibility of a resolution is what controls, not a definitive statement of when any particular right attaches.

As D.W. mentioned, "viability" is not a fixed term. Technology will first allow us to remove a fetus that can pretty well survive on its own, and subsequently advance how early that term is. Eventually we will be able to remove anything down to a fertilized zygote with a minimum of difficulty. The only one single factor in the end that will determine "viability" in the way many pro-choicers currently use it is how 'reliant' the fetus is to the mother. This is one of the more frequent reasons I hear that it's not a person yet, notwithstanding the obvious fact that even a born infant is no less reliant on being nourished and having everything done for it, perhaps other than breathing. But since 'level of reliance' is a continuum there is therefore no one time when a fetus, baby, or even a grown person ceases to be reliant on others wholesale. If extraction at any point is easy, and if viability is only a question of our ability to successfully sustain the zygote/fetus/baby, the so-called moral question becomes a technological question only. *THAT* is why the line must be drawn clearly, or not at all.

D.W.

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #206 on: May 15, 2019, 09:36:18 AM »
The threshold should be reliance on the pregnant person, not reliance in general.  Obviously the fetus would be reliant on the machines.  If the woman didn't want anything to do with the child, it would be reliant on the state, adoption agencies, adoptive parents and so on. 

We are talking about someone choosing not to (or being unable to) bring a child to term.  "Defining personhood" is a trap and can lead to no good legislation.

rightleft22

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #207 on: May 15, 2019, 10:29:58 AM »
Interesting arguing Abortion on TDS is a real thing. - no Idea what that means

Read that Alabama passed law on Abortion today.  Does anyone know what Alabama social safety net looks like.
All for saving lives however if we stop caring after the birth that would be wrong.

Fenring

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #208 on: May 15, 2019, 10:41:50 AM »
We are talking about someone choosing not to (or being unable to) bring a child to term.

No, I think we're talking about whether in the future there will be any leg to stand on in demanding the right to terminate a fetus. I don't see how the distinction between reliance on the mother and reliance on a machine should have any impact on whether the mother should get to decide to terminate the fetus. The question of viability or reliance only matters if extraction isn't possible before that time. I'm talking about the fact that that line will shift as we can extract earlier and earlier, and finally reliance will be an irrelevant term. And my prediction is that the pro-choice side will not yield at such a time as we can do that and will still insist on terminating the fetus if the mother wants to. I base this on my hypothesis that I think the desire is generally to make it as if the pregnancy never happened (history eraser button) rather than merely ending the pregnancy for the mother. If I'm right the existence of a living fetus/baby would prove to be a harassing piece of knowledge to such a person. However there could be one other mitigating factor that could help shift public opinion the other way, which would be if society were able to provide a very palatable and efficient public rearing and adoption system so that one could be sure these many babies would have a good result, perhaps that would aid in leaving a better taste in the mouth for such mothers.

D.W.

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #209 on: May 15, 2019, 11:06:20 AM »
Quote
And my prediction is that the pro-choice side will not yield at such a time as we can do that and will still insist on terminating the fetus if the mother wants to.
Maybe this is so.  I could be in total denial on this. 

For me you may as well say, "I changed my mind on this marriage.  It's only been a couple of months.  I think I'll murder my spouse and dump the body somewhere..." 

Sure it CAN and does happen occasionally.  But that's a crazy person and we have laws to deal with it. 

Different than saying:  "I've changed my mind, I want a divorce and them out of my house.  Now!"


Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #210 on: May 15, 2019, 11:39:06 AM »
Seriati, you are confused about the article you linked. It is describing abortions in the 21st to 24th week - this is in the first paragraph - which is at the end of the 2nd trimester.

Quote
“Late-term” abortions are generally understood to take place during or after the 21st to 24th week of gestation, which is late in the second trimester.

During or after.  I'm not confused, the metrics around abortion reasons are deliberately hidden, so you have to take what you can get by proxy.  This article was focused on the small minority of abortions that occur late in the game.  91% occur prior to week 13.  Only a little over 1% occur after week 21.  But that's still about 10,000 a year.

Quote
This is NOT what I was talking about. I am not confused about why 3rd trimester-into-late term abortions occur.

I didn't say you're confused about what you believe.  I said your meme claim was not verified, could not be verified, and there's every reason to believe its not true.  Take a closer look at the article and you should see why, but in case you miss it again, look at the response to the question, "What percentage of women getting later abortions are doing it to protect their own health or life or because of a fetal abnormality?" and following.  Don't get me wrong, some of their other reasons are reasonable as well, but it's a fake and deliberately unproven claim that you made about the certainty on why late term abortions occur.

Fenring

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #211 on: May 15, 2019, 11:45:24 AM »
For me you may as well say, "I changed my mind on this marriage.  It's only been a couple of months.  I think I'll murder my spouse and dump the body somewhere..." 

Well, to be fair, most people involved in such decision-making would probably say that *didn't* actually have a mind to get pregnant in the first place, and that the initial act was in no way a tacit agreement with the universe to accept a possible pregnancy. So it's not that they changed their mind, so much as they got 'saddled with' something they never wanted in most cases.

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #212 on: May 15, 2019, 11:49:41 AM »
Well, to be fair, most people involved in such decision-making would probably say that *didn't* actually have a mind to get pregnant in the first place, and that the initial act was in no way a tacit agreement with the universe to accept a possible pregnancy. So it's not that they changed their mind, so much as they got 'saddled with' something they never wanted in most cases.

But we've already established that such an excuse is not valid in how we decided to make the male responsible even if they feel that way.  Morally, we can not reject a probable or possible consequence of a deliberate action.

Fenring

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #213 on: May 15, 2019, 12:03:18 PM »
But we've already established that such an excuse is not valid in how we decided to make the male responsible even if they feel that way.  Morally, we can not reject a probable or possible consequence of a deliberate action.

I do not believe that the law is symmetrical at the moment, in many areas regarding male/female relations.

D.W.

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #214 on: May 15, 2019, 12:08:38 PM »
I take your point about "changing one's mind".  All analogies fall apart somewhere...

I'm saying you can decide to terminate the pregnancy/marriage but you deciding to terminate the fetus/spouse is (should be) out of bounds. 

It just so happens that as a side effect of terminating the pregnancy the fetus is almost always going to die.  IMO it's not a a decision being left up to anyone, it's a side effect of a course of action they do have the right to pursue. 

Once that course of action can ALSO preserve the fetus in such a way as it can develop into a healthy child, the "side effect" of the course of action goes away. 

Pro-Life people want to preserve those "babies"?  Start funding artificial wombs / incubation research as well as safe extraction procedures.  They should never win on restricting the rights of a person who doesn't want to bring a pregnancy to full term/delivery.

TheDeamon

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #215 on: May 15, 2019, 01:49:38 PM »
Well, to be fair, most people involved in such decision-making would probably say that *didn't* actually have a mind to get pregnant in the first place, and that the initial act was in no way a tacit agreement with the universe to accept a possible pregnancy. So it's not that they changed their mind, so much as they got 'saddled with' something they never wanted in most cases.

But we've already established that such an excuse is not valid in how we decided to make the male responsible even if they feel that way.  Morally, we can not reject a probable or possible consequence of a deliberate action.

I just had an exchange on facebook where this topic came up, and I broached the subject of inducing labor and delivering the child and turning care(and costs) over to the state.

I was greeted with indifference, and the further line of "most abortions occur during or before the first 16 weeks of pregnancy. If you're trying to make laws to cover less than 1% of situations, you shouldn't be making laws about anything."

I should chosen a stat to compare against other than the murder rate, which I differentiated from the more generic homicide rate,  which IIRC is below 6 in 100,000(or it directly impacts 0.006% of the population per year in the form of becoming dead) to compare against for other laws which are generally considered vitally important to society but involve "less than 1%." But oh well.

NobleHunter

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #216 on: May 15, 2019, 02:57:32 PM »
I think the appropriate parallel would be laws affecting less than 1% of murders.

Fenring

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #217 on: May 15, 2019, 03:12:43 PM »
I think the appropriate parallel would be laws affecting less than 1% of murders.

That doesn't seem like an appropriate parallel to me, because in the case of any given woman the likelihood that abortion law will affect her life is surely far, far higher than murder law. The numbers to compare would be (a) women seeking abortion after 16 weeks, with (b) people involved in murder cases. I would be a little surprised if the former group wasn't larger than the latter.

NobleHunter

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #218 on: May 15, 2019, 03:18:38 PM »
I think the charitable interpretation of their argument is that trying to formulate a law based on less than 1% of cases is not going to result in a good law. It's not about absolute numbers, it's about obsessing over edge cases instead addressing common problems.

Or the people maybe have been making terrible arguments on Facebook. That is not an edge case by any standard.

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #219 on: May 15, 2019, 03:18:56 PM »
Or we could look at exactly that, death sentences probably work out to around 1% and they consume a huge amount of our legal and governmental resources.  A hugely disproportionate amount of the total resources expended on murder or on crime generally.  Not to mention debate time at every level of government.

Or we could consider the shear number of parts of the tax laws that have no relevance for anyone other than a 1%'er, again something that consumes probably the majority of the resources expended around tax law.

I guess, sometimes a 1% law is material.

NobleHunter

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #220 on: May 15, 2019, 03:24:46 PM »
Maybe death sentences and tax breaks for the 1% are bad law  8)

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #221 on: May 15, 2019, 03:36:31 PM »
It's not all favorable, lots of tax breaks expire for those with high income, and lots of excise taxes apply, not to mention the AMT, so those laws actually act to increase their tax liabilities in many cases.

Similarly, death penalty cases give rights for appeals that other convicts would love to have.

scifibum

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #222 on: May 15, 2019, 03:38:39 PM »
Seriati, abortion providers do talk about 3rd trimester and later abortions. It's not a mystery. Roe v Wade put them in a separate legal category and it does not make sense to assume that late 2nd trimester abortion stats carry over into the 3rd and later. That's a pretty dumb theory.

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #223 on: May 15, 2019, 04:18:21 PM »
Seriati, abortion providers do talk about 3rd trimester and later abortions. It's not a mystery. Roe v Wade put them in a separate legal category and it does not make sense to assume that late 2nd trimester abortion stats carry over into the 3rd and later. That's a pretty dumb theory.

Then find them.  Show me the support for your claim.

3rd trimester, late term, 21+ weeks, however you compile it, they all suffer from a data compilation problem.  Specifically, the laws around abortion at that point are complex and controversial, and in many states require certain things be true (e.g., a threat to the health or safety of the mother).  The doctors who perform the procedures generally decline to document the specific basis (to avoid risk that the specific basis will be deemed not a threat by others) and almost never give good data.  As in many cases it would be illegal to report there was no legally required basis, you can either assume they never perform such an abortion or they do so and don't record it as not having a legal basis. 

When was the last time you heard of someone denied an abortion at a later term center?

That's why this article, not a pro life article, was useful.  It actually had some data.  It's not about "second trimester" abortions as you seem to imply.  It's about the entire universe of abortions post 21+ weeks.  Given, that's also the only time period in which we currently have any serious probability of viability, its a good overlap.

But to me, the fact that I've had to provide evidence and write 3 responses because you wrote a meme and acted like it was true, when I seriously doubt you can prove it (I haven't seen anything out there that supports it with actual data), is on you not me.

Pete at Home

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #224 on: May 15, 2019, 04:28:12 PM »
I think the appropriate parallel would be laws affecting less than 1% of murders.

Like terrorism, hate crime murders,  on the high seas or when a state boundary is crossed in the commission ...

NobleHunter

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #225 on: May 15, 2019, 04:37:12 PM »
Like terrorism, hate crime murders,  on the high seas or when a state boundary is crossed in the commission ...

And how much of the law around such cases would you characterize as good law?

TheDeamon

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #226 on: May 16, 2019, 02:11:10 AM »
As that facebook exchange continued:

Quote
Have you looked at the actual reasons for abortion in late stages of pregnancies? Those aren't for funsies or "oh I can't afford it" it's like "oh hey your kid has no brain" or "your kid's a harlequin baby" or whatever. And again, that's a minute portion of the abortions performed, so why would we ever legislate based on that?
There's no point in arguing about that unless you're trying to set up some gotcha moment so you can own the libs or whatever it is you're up to. The vast majority of abortions occur when the embryo has little of what we would recognize as making a person living. Like you can pull the plug on a brain dead patient with a heartbeat and functional systems, most abortions occur with what is essentially in that state.
Stop trying to come up with some weird ass edge case to vie for denying women bodily autonomy.

"We don't trust you. We don't care about this 'edge case' scenario. We're not discussing this."

D.W.

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #227 on: May 16, 2019, 09:10:48 AM »
"We don't trust you."

That pretty much sums up opposition to any important hot button issue today.

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #228 on: May 16, 2019, 09:36:46 AM »
Actually, the 1% of murders is real, contentious, and involves extreme views as well. They are police shootings, stand your ground, death penalty. You have protests too.

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #229 on: May 16, 2019, 09:37:11 AM »
"We don't trust you."

That pretty much sums up opposition to any important hot button issue today.

No, that's only half the summary.  The other half is "You're evil if you don't agree with me and must be destroyed."

TheDeamon

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #230 on: May 16, 2019, 06:16:04 PM »
"We don't trust you."

That pretty much sums up opposition to any important hot button issue today.

No, that's only half the summary.  The other half is "You're evil if you don't agree with me and must be destroyed."

I guess that fits with "Stop trying to come up with some weird ass edge case to vie for denying women bodily autonomy."

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #231 on: May 16, 2019, 06:27:01 PM »
Not really, or not to me, since an absolutist on bodily autonomy, just not on permitting the killing of people.

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #232 on: May 17, 2019, 01:26:02 PM »
Ireland has coded an objective standard of viability.

Quote
where there is a condition present which is likely to lead to the death of the foetus either before or within 28 days of birth.

I would accept that as a defintion, and that a definition is a good thing to have.

Fenring

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #233 on: May 17, 2019, 01:49:45 PM »
Ireland has coded an objective standard of viability.

Quote
where there is a condition present which is likely to lead to the death of the foetus either before or within 28 days of birth.

I would accept that as a defintion, and that a definition is a good thing to have.

I just Googled that and found nothing on the first few pages about it. New ruling? If so, do you have a link? From your post I didn't understand why you're citing a "condition".

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #234 on: May 17, 2019, 01:59:59 PM »
Irish Health

Quote
The legislation permits abortions to be carried out up to 12 weeks of pregnancy; or where there is a risk to the life, or of serious harm to the health, of the pregnant woman; or where there is a risk to the life, or of serious harm to the health, of the pregnant woman in an emergency; or where there is a condition present which is likely to lead to the death of the foetus either before or within 28 days of birth.

the key to googling quotes is to wrap it in ""

Fenring

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #235 on: May 17, 2019, 02:18:01 PM »
the key to googling quotes is to wrap it in ""

Ok, but if you're going to quote from an article you could also just link to it. Just saying... :p

Here's the relevant full quote (and hence why I found your partial quote confusing):

Quote
The legislation permits abortions to be carried out up to 12 weeks of pregnancy; or where there is a risk to the life, or of serious harm to the health, of the pregnant woman; or where there is a risk to the life, or of serious harm to the health, of the pregnant woman in an emergency; or where there is a condition present which is likely to lead to the death of the foetus either before or within 28 days of birth.

Contrary to what you wrote above, this *is not* a definition of viability, and certainly not in context of the discussion we've been having. All they did was define a general deadline and list a few exceptions, one of which is the quote you offered, which cites that the pregnancy can be aborted if the fetus has a particular condition that would cause it to likely die anyhow. In other words, they don't want to force women to go through an entire pregnancy and then a birth for a baby that won't survive it on the odds. That has *nothing* to do with whether a fetus is generally viable prior to birth and could survive without the mother if extracted early.

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: TDS is a real thing
« Reply #236 on: May 17, 2019, 02:41:39 PM »
I agree, there are other parts of viability. What I meant was, I would accept a definition of viability that is limited by that definition. In other words, absent a "health of the mother" issue, that would be the determining factor. Meaning that you can't have a carefree elective procedure because you feel like it, which some people are convinced "health of the mother" and "viability" make available.

This is addressing only the question of viability of the pregnancy carried to term. This speaks to the hypothetical "day before term" cases.

It would be possible to use such a standard for viability due to early delivery as well, although in the earliest premature births the risk in many cases isn't death as much as severe disability.