Messages

1

General Comments / Re: How broken does a justice system have to be before vigilantism is moral?

« on: October 20, 2021, 04:13:26 PM »

Cherrypoptart:

It's interesting that there is more sympathy for criminals than there is for the people who are tired of them.

Sympathy for the victims.

There were two crimes in the Arbery case: trespassing, and murder.  Which victim gets your sympathy?  The house owner who was trespassed upon, or the murder victim?

And could you please at least think about Drake's question:  what if you were driving to the grocery store and when you got to the parking lot three black guys waving guns approached you and said they needed to talk to you about something.  What would your reaction be?  And if it turns out they witnessed you driving over the limit on your way to the store, and wanted to perform a 'citizens arrest' on you, would you believe they were on the up-and-up?

2

General Comments / Re: Misleading or false claims by the media

« on: September 29, 2021, 09:16:18 AM »

Cherrypoptart:

if the standard to come to America is that you want a better life than that opens our immigration system up to just about the entire world

When did that stop?  All of our ancestors came here under that idea.  Our native-born population is shrinking.  It's not like we don't have any more room.

3

General Comments / Re: coronavirus

« on: September 23, 2021, 01:25:13 PM »

Scott, can you find the article somewhere that is not behind a paywall?

I would like to know if the NIH did fund the research, not whether it was allowed to do so.
Also, did the NIH fund the research at Wuhan?

You keep coming up with theoretical scenarios where all of this happened but Fauci shouldn't need to lie about it.  What about the scenario where it never was the NIH funding it?  The only article posted here about the funding said that DARPA passed on the opportunity, but it never said that the NIH (or anyone else) picked it up.  Do you have even circumstantial evidence, or just conjecture?

4

General Comments / Re: coronavirus

« on: September 22, 2021, 08:31:55 AM »

said the research may have gone ahead even without the funding.

...so the NIH didn't fund it?  So how is it the NIH's fault?

And saying that it probably came from the lab in one way or another is not the reason Trump was accused of being - or at least pandering to - racist.

5

General Comments / Re: New trans laws

« on: September 17, 2021, 04:36:40 PM »

Got it.  When you said ' back to your question [Drake]. A better framing would be...'  I thought you were reframing his metaphor, but you were actually reframing yours.

So then the only question is what you meant by 'legitimate response'
Is the Jilted Lover response a valid excuse for turning violent?  I know a couple of trans people and my understanding is that you always let the other know before it goes that far, just to avoid these situations.  Just like telling the cop that you have a weapon in the car when you get pulled over.
It is possible for both parties to be in the wrong.


ETA:
from your bbc article:

"If you have a trans woman who transitions very early on, she may be physically identical to a cis woman at a surface level."

A "cis woman" or "cisgendered" person is someone whose gender identity matches the one they were born with.

This is the only usage of 'cis' I have ever seen, although I admit to being very isolated social media-wise.  Basically Ornery and facebook and I have only a few 'friends' on FB.  just to explain my position in the whole 'cis is only used as an insult' thing earlier.

6

General Comments / Re: How broken does a justice system have to be before vigilantism is moral?

« on: September 17, 2021, 04:26:28 PM »

I'm sorry.  I somehow thought we were talking about law; but that doesn't make sense because the axiom was that the system was broken.

Morally justified.  In a perfect world, people would seek justice rather than revenge.  So it wouldn't matter who deals out the punishment, because everyone would agree that it was justified.

In a less than perfect world? I am having trouble divorcing my intellect and my emotion, so I can't follow the thought experiment. 

I am very surprised to find that I must recuse myself.

7

General Comments / Re: How broken does a justice system have to be before vigilantism is moral?

« on: September 17, 2021, 09:58:41 AM »

Lawful authority comes from the people.  Basically they would have to set up a new system to replace the old, broken one.  But there would have to be a mechanism to hold parties to the judgement, and to hold the jury accountable for their judgement.

Drake, yes, and that is how you get feuds and vendettas.  I know we as humans like to feel we are dealing out punishment ourselves, or it doesn't seem 'real' enough, but we are very bad at proportionality.  The question seemed to me to be a theoretical, perfect-world type of question.

8

General Comments / Re: How broken does a justice system have to be before vigilantism is moral?

« on: September 17, 2021, 08:38:13 AM »

Never.

Understandable, excusable, but never acceptable.

If the system is broken, replace it.  Even if the replacement is an ad hoc jury in the street, it must still be a jury, not a mob.  And you can tell the difference because vigilantes always go straight to the maiming and killing.

9

General Comments / Re: New trans laws

« on: September 17, 2021, 08:33:59 AM »

But the initial situation that Drake theorized was not in any way coercive.  You changed it to not only a shocking revelation (I'm into BDSM!) but also into coercion (no, you can't leave).  And then held onto that coercion when it was pointed out that the two are very different things.

So, it being a metaphor, you are comparing 'gay panic' or 'trans panic' with the natural self-defense impulse of a person under coercion.  IE, that it is perfectly understandable, and even a natural right, to defend yourself with violence when the girl you are chatting up in the bar reveals that she is trans.

Also, 'not rational in that situation' does not automatically equal 'getting violent', which was the whole point of the example.  That people seem to think something kinky is an attack on them personally, rather than a weird thing that they are just not into.

10

General Comments / Re: New trans laws

« on: September 15, 2021, 11:42:20 AM »

TheDeamon:
So you are indeed equating finding out something unexpected with being blocked from leaving an uncomfortable situation.

Interesting.

11

General Comments / Re: New trans laws

« on: September 14, 2021, 12:24:04 PM »

TheDeamon:

A "better framing" for the scenario in question would probably be more comparable to your hooking up with a hot date for the night and you go back to their place, only for them to lead you into "a play room" straight out of 50 Shades of Grey, and they try to restrain you from leaving[/b] because "it's perfectly normal" so far as they're concerned and "nothing for you to freak out over."

   emphasis mine

Are you happy with the way you 'framed' this?  Do you want to maybe re-edit it for clarity?

12

General Comments / Re: New trans laws

« on: September 13, 2021, 10:24:23 AM »

Seriati:

A lot has been posted in the meantime, so I will just say: thank you for the clarification and well thought out post.

13

General Comments / Re: coronavirus

« on: September 13, 2021, 09:51:35 AM »

When we were applying for our adoption 10 years ago, we needed a letter from work saying that our jobs were stable and we would continue to be employed.  My HR refused to put that in writing, because they hold the right to fire us at any moment for any reason - or no reason at all.  And nobody even blinked at that.

14

General Comments / Re: New trans laws

« on: September 10, 2021, 09:47:03 AM »

Seriati:

By the way "cis" is a nonsense word crafted to sound negative. 

This is the only time I have ever seen words appropriated from science where they are actually used correctly.  Or metaphorically correctly, at least.

Trans means crossed over or twisted, cis means straight.
Trans fats are such because the chemical bonds make them 'bent'.  Cis fats are straight.
 If anything, 'trans' is the word which is negative in connotation. 

The fact that you think 'cis' was made up just a few years ago, and never looked into where it came from is very ironic, since you are excoriating Wayward for not digging deeper into the story.

Crunch presented the story in the worst possible light, and that light was most definitely anti-trans.  (Whether the outrage was anti-trans or not, Crunch's presentation certainly was.)  I guarantee that if Crunch knew about the erection detail he would have included it.  Unless he was planning to do exactly what you did: get someone to argue against the anti-trans context, and then bring up the pervert aspect and pretend he (Wayward) was arguing on behalf of the man all along.

You used to be a much better interlocutor, Seriati. You were one of the posters I looked forward to hearing from, even though I disagreed with most of your positions.

15

General Comments / Re: Farewell to Ornery

« on: August 18, 2021, 08:31:00 AM »

Crunch, instead of telling us to look it up and figure out what you are trying to imply (then telling us we got it wrong), how about you just list the 4 - or 2 - 'obvious' users who were not allowed to migrate to the new forum?  And what makes you think they were actively blocked?  I disagree with a lot of things JoshuaD says, but I have never seen that he was the type to lie about something like that.

You also said that this was bigger than the 'ornery 8' fiasco, but now you say it is only 4 people, or maybe even only 2 people.

And if you are indeed not G#, then I must apologize for labelling you such for quite a while now.

16

General Comments / Re: Afghanistan

« on: August 17, 2021, 09:48:47 AM »

The problem is, we keep doing things half-assed.  We rebuilt their army, but left the society which needs to support it alone.  So of course the army reverted to what it was before, because that is what that form of society will support.
Banana Republic 2.0.

We had to completely change Japanese culture to get the success we had there, and a similar effort was needed in Afghanistan.  Except we didn't want to put in the effort and spend the political capital it would need.  Like yossarian said, external vs. internal.  We needed to change their internal way of doing things for it to stick.

I don't think China will reach far enough to get embroiled there, but if they do, you can bet they will be willing to go all the way.

17

General Comments / Re: Vaccine Passports

« on: August 17, 2021, 09:28:29 AM »

edgmatt:

If they had covid, which caused them to get pneumonia, and then die from pneumonia, Covid can be listed as the cause of death.

If they fell off the roof, which caused them to get internal injuries, and then die from internal injuries, falling off the roof can be listed as the cause of death.

When we are talking about how many preventable deaths were caused by poor adherence to safety guidelines, absolutely. 
The actual cause of death is usually heart failure.  We have to work backwards from there to figure out what caused the failure.  And what caused that. 
Would it make more sense for OSHA to require safety railings and lanyards, or giant mattresses on the ground?

Would it make more sense to try to avoid pneumonia, or avoid the things which cause pneumonia?

18

General Comments / Re: Andrew Cuomo went full Clinton

« on: August 09, 2021, 08:31:13 AM »

Posted by: Crunch
« on: August 06, 2021, 09:52:49 AM
     The term I used? Please quote the post where I used that term. You can't because you got caught up making things up and it ran away from you. I never said "circular firing squads"

Posted by: fizz
« on: August 06, 2021, 05:01:52 PM »Insert Quote

The term I used? Please quote the post where I used that term. You can't because you got caught up making things up and it ran away from you. I never said "circular firing squads"

This post about Jeffrey Epstein arrest down here:
Quote from: Crunch on July 10, 2019, 01:42:41 PM
Trump getting the left to line up in a circular firing squad is definitely to his credit. It’s amazing to see him accomplish this over and over again.


Crunch, this would be the point where you show how mature you are and apologize.

Edgmatt, this is the kind of stuff we were talking about earlier with the track records of posters and taking anything they say with a huge grain of salt.

19

General Comments / Re: Why are many managers pushing to reopen offices?

« on: August 04, 2021, 10:15:18 AM »

M^2,
   Is M^3 getting paid more for the extra hour she is putting in every day?
If so, her productivity did not go up - she is simply working more.
If not, her company is getting free labor from her.

20

General Comments / Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe

« on: July 28, 2021, 09:20:39 AM »

edgmatt,  I think a lot of it isn't so much 'I love Biden' as 'Crunch is saying something stupid again'

I don't doubt that Biden is stumbling over words.  Just like Trump did.  Just like Obama did.  Just like Bush did.
I would even believe that he is doing it more than they did.
But Crunch has been pushing the dementia angle hard, and by now everyone probably just automatically pushes back against him.  This goes back to that credibility issue mentioned earlier.

21

General Comments / Re: We gotta talk about Uncle Joe

« on: July 26, 2021, 10:36:24 AM »

Edgmatt:

Why does Crunch need credibility here?  He QUOTED the man.

He selectively quoted the man.
Crunch gave us a bunch of sound bites without attribution.  The only mention of a possible source is that it was on CNN.  Obviously Crunch was not taking snippets of a transcript, since there was commentary already inside the quoted parts.  So it looks like Crunch took some quotes from a third party who had already massaged Biden's words.  I'm sure that in a half-hour interview anyone would stumble a few times over proper wording, or proper ordering of how to relate an anecdote, especially if he was speaking off the cuff.

Was it a half-hour interview?  Was he speaking off the cuff?  Was it just a few times?  We don't know, because Crunch didn't say where he got the commentary from, or where THEY got the quotes from in the first place.  So we have to trust that Crunch isn't trying to pull a fast one, AND we have to trust that Crunch got it from a trustworthy source.
That is where the credibility comes in.

22

General Comments / Re: The Jan 6 Commission

« on: June 10, 2021, 09:25:05 AM »

But what specifically was up for a vote, on Jan 6th, in the capital building, that the right-minded but weak-willed republicans needed to be encouraged to fight against?  He was telling people to march on the capital and encourage their republican leaders to 'do the right thing'.  Which right thing would that be?

I will even stipulate that he meant non-violently.  That they were simply to provide silent proof that the republican members did not stand alone.

But again - stand against what?  What did the senators have to do on that day that the crowd need to provide gentle encouragement for?

23

General Comments / Re: Election Results

« on: June 10, 2021, 08:49:15 AM »

William:
As a resident of eastern PA, I can tell you that our state legislature is dominated by republicans who toe the Trump line.  Very few of them would be 'never-trumpers'.

Also, since we are so close to NYC and NJ, our local news covers things which happen there which would affect us.  Such as Trump's wheeling and dealing from as far back as the early 80's.  We have known what Trump's character and thinking was from LONG before he hit the national spotlight.  Using bankruptcy as a business tactic might be legal and make you a 'financial genius' for doing so, but it does not make you a good leader or a good role model.

24

General Comments / Re: New trans laws

« on: June 03, 2021, 08:50:59 AM »

Did DJQuag just commit suicide?  Mod, do you have a way to check on him?

25

General Comments / Re: George Floyd

« on: April 27, 2021, 08:46:42 AM »

Cherry:

If he's not trying to move especially because he's unconscious then there is no need for pressure.

And yet, the paramedics had to force Chauvin to move so they could examine/treat Floyd.

And what makes you think these questions never came up during trial?  You are assuming without a shred of evidence.

I actually agree that the police should be given the benefit of the doubt.  But the flip side of that is they must be held to a higher standard of conduct.  The Tao of Ben Parker comes up time and again in these discussions.

26

General Comments / Re: George Floyd

« on: April 23, 2021, 11:45:22 AM »

And the whole point of the knee on the neck was to control Floyd's ability to move - it is a restraint.

If there is no pressure there, how does that stop anyone from moving?

27

General Comments / Re: George Floyd

« on: April 20, 2021, 08:45:08 AM »

micrograms / liter is the same as nanograms / milliliter - so Prince had 6x the levels the Floyd did.  Which was indeed over the fatal level, but not three times over.  I agree that 'expert witnesses' need a large grain of salt, but you can do that math yourself.

And if you are correct that Floyd was complaining about breathing earlier, I would say that is even more damning for Chauvin.  A guy says he can't breath, and his response is to put his knee on the guy's neck?  Seriously?

28

General Comments / Re: Border crisis

« on: April 19, 2021, 01:37:47 PM »

Edgmatt:

And we can't make different rules for different people based on how much money they have.

I'm just going to let this one sink in for a while... 

29

General Comments / Re: coronavirus

« on: April 19, 2021, 01:27:21 PM »

Didn't we already pay for this?  Wasn't that part of Operation... um...whatever last summer.  I am drawing a blank on the name.  We promised the companies a guaranteed profit in order to spur research and all that?

30

General Comments / Re: Border crisis

« on: April 16, 2021, 10:05:14 AM »

edgmatt -

Drake's mocking tone was aimed at your fellow travellers.  A lot of people who are against immigration are  ALSO against foreign aid.  And when the argument is made about 'foreign aid helps us in the long run', they say it should be given directly to our own poor.  But they are usually against welfare, as well, so they get mocked for their (false) position.


And if the car dealership owner only makes $200 - 300k profit every year, then they would not be affected by the taxes, would they?
If they are making $2-3M every year, then it looks like they already jacked up the prices on everyone.

31

General Comments / Re: Trans Bills

« on: April 07, 2021, 08:31:58 AM »

Me: People prefer easy to package definitions rather than having to think about context and a spectrum of meanings.

Fenring:  Solipsism!

Also Fenring: 3 paragraphs about how we should use different words for adoptive parents because thinking about context and a spectrum of meaning is just too confusing.

32

General Comments / Re: Trans Bills

« on: April 05, 2021, 10:31:52 AM »

Fenring:

It's been the standard definition for eons, and it's obvious why that definition could be said to make sense.

So the sun still orbits the Earth?  So mentally ill people are actually possessed by demons?  So the Earth is really flat after all?

We like simple answers, and simple choices.  Left or Right.  Male or Female.  Good or Evil.  With us or Against us.  Red or Blue.
We don't like having to consider a spectrum.  That doesn't mean the spectrum isn't there.  And if we enact laws that try to deny the existence of the spectrum, we just look stupid.

33

General Comments / Re: Trans Bills

« on: April 05, 2021, 10:24:16 AM »

Neanderthal: 'boys don't play with dolls. boys don't wear make-up. boys don't wear dresses'

Confused Lad: 'okay. since I enjoy all of those things, I guess I am a girl then.'

N: '*censored* no! you fall into the category of boy, so you are a boy'

CL: 'but ... you said ...'

N: 'learn to accept your socially defined place!'


This would be the societal definitions mentioned earlier.  If we as people would allow edge case children to express their preferences without shaming them for not fitting in, there would probably be a lot less gender dysphoria.  When there are only a very few choices available, a lot of people have to make poor choices.


And the edge cases are being brought up because these laws are AIMED at edge cases.  Does anyone remember the female runner a few years ago that almost got banned from competing because her body naturally produces 10x more testosterone than the average woman?  Turns out it was a chromosomal thing.  XXY or something like that.  Fully functional ovaries and uterus.  Where would she go, Matt?

34

General Comments / Re: coronavirus

« on: March 30, 2021, 09:01:28 AM »

Scott -

How are you jumping from "NOW is not the time..."
to 'it will NEVER be the time'?

What has Fauci said that makes you think he supports perpetual hype-rvigilance?

Edgmatt - when the case load no longer threatens to overwhelm our health care system.  Either by building tons more rapid care clinics, or by reducing the viral load to a manageable portion of the population.  As someone above stated - when it is as bad as the flu season.

35

General Comments / Re: Election Results

« on: March 23, 2021, 09:47:22 AM »

Did...did Powell just say that Trump supporters were stupid for believing her?

36

General Comments / Re: Roe might be in woe

« on: March 23, 2021, 09:45:52 AM »

Joshua -

You implied that since the mind and soul are not dependent on the brain, that if a person's brain is damaged it doesn't affect either one.
When we harvest organs, the person's body is still alive.  That is the whole point of donating organs.  Only the brain has died.  But that means we are dismembering a person who is still alive.  That would be a pretty horrific thing to do to a person.  How do you square that?

This is one of the cornerstones of the mind=brain argument.

Also, you keep saying how the embryo will develop if left to its own natural processes.  This is absolutely false.  The mother's body does an enormous amount of work to enable that 'natural process'.  Work which actively harms the mother's body. 
It would be more accurate to say it will develop if the womb is left to its natural process.

This discussion started because you said that the mother should be forced to continue providing that work against her will, because the rights of the fetus override hers.  You keep skipping over that contribution every time you assert that the continuity from embryo to child would happen 'naturally'.

37

General Comments / Re: coronavirus

« on: March 19, 2021, 09:44:04 AM »

huh, that funny.  Just last week Sean Hannity was saying how we would never hit the '100 million in 100 days' target now that Biden has slowed down the finely tuned machine Trump left him.

38

General Comments / Re: The Party of personal responsibility?

« on: March 19, 2021, 09:42:25 AM »

Members have to publicly disclose their requests; they have to justify why they’re an appropriate use of taxpayer funding; and they have to prove that they or their immediate family don’t have a financial interest in the spending.

Honestly, that sounds like how government is supposed to work.  If everyone followed this formula, they never would have needed to get rid of them in the first place.

And yes, my middle name is Pollyanna.  Why do you ask?

39

General Comments / Re: coronavirus

« on: March 17, 2021, 11:36:18 AM »

the first or second.  Waaaay back when.

40

General Comments / Re: coronavirus

« on: March 17, 2021, 09:29:50 AM »

Msquared:

we can have a small cook out at my place.

Woohoo!  OrneryCon2021!

41

General Comments / Re: Roe might be in woe

« on: March 17, 2021, 09:26:48 AM »

Fenring, you completely missed the point about twins and clones.

If the soul is attached at conception, then at some later time the fetus twins into two separate people, where did the second soul come from?  Or did the soul also split, and a twin only has half a soul?  Or with chimeras, where one twin absorbs the other, do they now possess two souls?

As for clones - if the clump of cells started out as part of me, then my soul is attached to it.  Since you don't believe that the brain is the seat of the soul.
If it is turned into an embryo, then what happens to my soul?  Does it suddenly get replaced by a new one?  At what point in the process is my soul removed from the mass of cells?

For that matter - if the brain has nothing to do with soul, and soul pervades every cell in my body - what happens to the parents' souls when the sperm and egg combine?

42

General Comments / Re: Roe might be in woe

« on: March 16, 2021, 09:07:59 AM »

And modern science suggests that the soul joins matter at the time of conception,

Modern science suggests no such thing.  It suggests that the seat of the soul, the interaction point between the 'animating principle' and the 'collection of matter' is the brain.  Without the brain, the person cannot inhabit the body.

There is no brain at the moment of conception.

If you are going to argue reason, you must use the forms of reason.  You are simply re-packaging the religious concept in metaphysical language.


As an aside, is Bhuddism a faith or philosophy for you?  That might be where my mistake occurred as to you being faithless.


Also, as NobleHunter is gay, I assume his question about not being able to 'love his wife and make lots of children' was about that.  Your prescription for happiness was extremely hetero-centric.

43

General Comments / Re: Roe might be in woe

« on: March 11, 2021, 08:39:59 AM »

Could you explain briefly how reason tells us that humans have a soul?  And do other higher animals, such as dolphins and elephants also have souls?  Or is it unique to humans?

I remember this discussion from many years ago, but I don't remember your argument.  If you made it then - I seem to remember you NOT being a faithless wretch back then.

44

General Comments / Re: coronavirus

« on: February 25, 2021, 08:42:34 AM »

Cherrypoptart:

... have families, start businesses, buy houses, and generally set down roots...

Yeah, the horrors of becoming productive citizens.

The entire argument against immigration is that they would remove money from our economy by sending it home; that they would not get jobs, but rather go on welfare; that they would end up criminals, running drugs and robbing good tax-paying citizens; that they would disappear into the woodwork, never to be found again when it comes time for their asylum hearing.

Out of all of those bad things you say the southern immigrants will do - which ones are represented by your initial quote?


Every single one of my ancestors emigrated here, some as recently as the late 1800's.  None of then had to worry about quotas.  We still have vast tracts of land just waiting for settlers, we still have huge swaths of minimum-wage jobs waiting for applicants.  The only difference is who is (recently) in charge, and where the immigrants are coming from.

45

General Comments / Re: coronavirus

« on: February 22, 2021, 12:24:17 PM »

I know several anti-mask, anti-vax people who are planning to claim to be inoculated as an excuse to go mask-less from now on.

46

General Comments / Re: The Party of personal responsibility?

« on: February 19, 2021, 09:06:12 AM »

I saw it on facebook, so take it with an entire block of salt:

Some comedian made a joke about conditions being bad through government mis-management, so Cruz took his family across the border.

And Dan Rather tweeted that dunking on Cruz is like bragging about dunking on a 3 foot hoop.

I remember Rather trying to be cool and funny during a presidential race back in the early 2000s(?). and mainly failing.  Apparently retirement has given him the free time to hone his material.

47

General Comments / Re: Joe Biden the Dictator

« on: February 19, 2021, 09:00:42 AM »

That and Trump was an ego-maniac who was needlessly petty, using him as a yardstick on what to do is a very bad bar to compare against.

and yet, 74 million people are willing to burn down the country in order to get him back in office...

48

General Comments / Re: impeachment defense clown car

« on: February 11, 2021, 09:00:02 AM »

kidv:

In the unlikely event this is not a rhetorical question, ...

Why would it be rhetorical?  There are a bunch of lawyers on this site, so I figured someone would know the answer.

I try not to ask rhetorical questions in that manner.  It mainly serves as a way of subtly pointing out information the other party should already know, and showing how smart I am.  This is a very bad place for me to try flexing on people. 

49

General Comments / Re: impeachment defense clown car

« on: February 10, 2021, 04:15:08 PM »

Are there statute of limitations on civil crimes?  If so, my question stands.

50

General Comments / Re: impeachment defense clown car

« on: February 10, 2021, 12:06:10 PM »

So if someone is arrested and charged for a crime a few days before the statute of limitations would have expired, but the trial date is AFTER the expiration, can their lawyer argue that the state missed their shot at prosecuting?