Messages

1

General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon

« on: January 21, 2021, 03:15:03 PM »

Man's achievements rest upon the use of symbols.... we must consider ourselves as a symbolic, semantic class of life, and those who rule the symbols, rule us. - Alfred Korzybski

There are two ways to slide easily through life; to believe everything or doubt everything. Both ways save us from thinking - Alfred Korzybski

As words are not the things we speak about, and structure is the only link between them, structure becomes the only content of knowledge. If we gamble on verbal structures that have no observable empirical structures, such gambling can never give us any structural information about the world. Therefore such verbal structures are structurally obsolete, and if we believe in them, they induce delusions or other semantic disturbances.

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General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon

« on: January 21, 2021, 01:50:03 PM »

I was thinking more personally.
I grew up in the 70's  and would have not have considered myself a racist but in hind sight via ignorance or not caring suspect the label of soft racist would fit.

Most of the soft racists I knew when I was young are all now pretty strong liberals.  Getting out in the world and meeting these people are what makes the difference.  Getting out of High School.  Getting out of your home town.  Getting away from your family.

Very true, At the last family reunion there was noticeable difference between those that stayed home and those that moved away.

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General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon

« on: January 21, 2021, 01:37:19 PM »

I was thinking more personally.
I grew up in the 70's  and would have not have considered myself a racist but in hind sight via ignorance or not caring suspect the label of soft racist would fit.
If I was a in your face racist I suspect I would have been confronted but as a soft racist It has taken some time. Its why I think it worse, I was the guy, and I suspect we are the majority, that would just watch, maybe shake my head and wish things were different, but never do anything.

Actually it was on this site where I was confronted.  Learn better do better.

Interesting book 'The Metaphors We Live By'  most of which are unconscious. that task I think as it concerns the symbolism of flags is to become conscious of not just what they mean to us but others.

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General Comments / Re: coronavirus

« on: January 21, 2021, 01:25:49 PM »

I guess what I am saying is that his true legacy will be the blood of hundreds of thousands of US Citizens

With regards to Covid I suspect Trumps legacy will be viewed as a failure of leadership. Due to his limited ability to show empathy and speak in ways that didn't make things all about him, he failed to be seen as presidential without really having to do a whole lot.  It was a huge missed opportunity.

Like Grant I suspect Trump lasting legacy will be his furthering of conspiracy theories and not just deepening division but encouraging it.

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General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon

« on: January 21, 2021, 12:59:15 PM »

Interesting post Grant

I've often wondered if the soft racisms isn't the worst kind. You don't really consider yourself a racist while at the same time in a way enabling the status quo to remain the status quo and become systemic.

I have no issue with 'good old boy's'  however if I knew the symbol I related to as something positive was related by others as really negative I'd have to ask myself why I was clinging to the symbol and if it didn't reveal something not so 'soft' about me.

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General Comments / Re: The Case for Trumps Impeachment

« on: January 20, 2021, 01:50:09 PM »

It will be interesting to see which argument Mitch goes with

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General Comments / Re: Pre-planned Second Impeachment

« on: January 20, 2021, 01:14:58 PM »

He's not making specific claims because all he has access to are publicly available documents and the staff he pays.  You're absolutely correct that if he releases 5000 names, 10,000 reporters are going to jump on falsifying every name on that list.  He had dozens of staff to compile a list, they have a thousand times more manpower to falsify it.  If those 10,000 reporters went looking for fraud they'd find that too.

So your argument is that providing and validating the list of names isn't a valid approach to prove anything because you won't believe the results. The same reasoning as behind the idea that If I lose you cheated. How does anyone make a case against such absurd reasoning.

How can such reasoning not end in the end of the rule of law?

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General Comments / Re: The Case for Trumps Impeachment

« on: January 20, 2021, 12:20:33 PM »

Yet another thread where you guys pile on with quotes about how bad Trump is (ie opinions) and diatribes on how unreasonable his positions are, or assertions without proof.

Are you guys still capable of making a facts based argument without assumptions that rely on hatred of Trump?

Are you??

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General Comments / Re: The Case for Trumps Impeachment

« on: January 20, 2021, 12:09:57 PM »

Well lets start with all of the lies about the election results.

Not a fact.  Just your opinion.  In fact, most people believe Trump believes what he says.

Your being obtuse and disingenuous

Your narrow definition of a lie is your opinion. The argument that Trump believes what he says something you can't know

rightleft22, get informed, go read the GA SoS call transcript and come back and tell me that Trump doesn't believe he won Georgia.  I dare you.

It's not a "narrow" definition of a lie.  Being wrong or mistaken is not a lie, not even if you refuse to change your view after others present evidence they find convincing of your error.

AS a leader we get to ask that what he says fit with the facts available to him, to repeat as a fact their was fraud without being able to prove it becomes a lie.

Except, he did prove it.  The world doesn't agree that he proved it to the standard required.  And there's no question he accepted evidence without question that I wouldn't have accepted with out exceptional proof.

But if that were the real standard I could ask what most of the left is doing in office, the things they say about socialism and communism are objectively false, yet they repeat them endlessly because they believe them.  By your standard they're all dangerous liars.  As was everything said by virtually every Democrat about Russian collusion, some things which are still being said even on this board, are they are clear dangerous liars too?

Please explain how Trump proved his allegations
Would you accept such a definition of proof presented to you about a issue you didn't agree with?

You ought to ask better of your leader then repeating a allegation that he can't prove.  I doubt you would accept anyone you disagree with presenting such statements as anything other then a lie or disinformation.

Seriati get informed and stop being a hypocrite.

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General Comments / Re: The Case for Trumps Impeachment

« on: January 20, 2021, 11:56:29 AM »

Seriati may be lamenting with cherry - "There was a time when you could believe in something without proof. You could proselytize your belief without any evidence. Those days are gone. I wonder how that's going to bode for God." without going deeper into the impact of taking political action based on a belief you can't backup with evidence.

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General Comments / Re: The Case for Trumps Impeachment

« on: January 20, 2021, 11:48:44 AM »

Well lets start with all of the lies about the election results.

Not a fact.  Just your opinion.  In fact, most people believe Trump believes what he says.

Your being obtuse and disingenuous

Your narrow definition of a lie is your opinion. The argument that Trump believes what he says something you can't know

AS a leader we get to ask that what he says fit with the facts available to him, to repeat as a fact their was fraud without being able to prove it becomes a lie.

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General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon

« on: January 20, 2021, 09:44:56 AM »

There was a time when you could believe in something without proof. You could proselytize your belief without any evidence. Those days are gone. I wonder how that's going to bode for God.

I think this reasoning speaks volumes and how it could happen that a man is followed as if a god., or if not a god infallible.
A odd mixture of Religion, distorted concept of faith, and politics.

To hand over ones power (vote) to political leader who you accept will create policies and react based on beliefs that they can't back up with facts or prove and not see that a dangerous boggles the mind. But then such reasoning has nothing to do with the mind.   

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General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon

« on: January 19, 2021, 04:54:40 PM »

It goes all the way to the top. And the same type of conspiracy mindedness with her last bit about how she doesn't know that we'll ever know what happened just like the so-called insurrectionist treasonous traitor Trumpers are saying now about voter fraud that gets the ban hammer dropped on them.

You can what about ism all you want.
The idea that Trump losing is proof of fraud is absurd reasoning. That he kept pushing it, and that his followers blindly followed him and that reasoning leading, well was not politics or patriotisms and turning into what it turned into.   

I can't prove your a stole something but that is proof your a thief... probably not the reasoning anyone would wont if they ever found themselves in the courts .

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General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon

« on: January 19, 2021, 04:44:45 PM »

It used to be politicians could say whatever and it was up to the voters to decide. That's not good enough anymore. For four years the Democrats screamed about a stolen election. Now if they say things that used to be okay before it's called incitement, sedition, and treason. And it isn't just politicians either. The My Pillow Guy is John Q. Public and he just had his products dropped by a bunch of stores. They aren't just going after politicians. They are going after everyone. It wouldn't surprise me if part of the military vetting process they are using now to screen troops includes something about whether or not they believe in massive voter fraud. If you do, your name goes on the list. The social apps also seem to be using massive voter fraud as their litmus test.

There was a time when you could believe in something without proof. You could proselytize your belief without any evidence. Those days are gone. I wonder how that's going to bode for God.

"Massive voter fraud" is turning into America's new shibboleth.

I'm not a fan of the 'cancel culture' but suspect its a natural progressing as we move away from the principle of “one person, one vote” toward the  modern, and utilitarian, notion of “one dollar, one vote.”. When Corporations are 'people' and that 'person' (MyPillow Guy) pushes for martial law based on some conspire theory that it was China behind the fraud that could not be found.... people are going to 'vote'

There was a time when you could believe in something without proof.

You might want to ask better for yourself and of others. Might also want to ask yourself at what point should 'believing something without proof' stop being believed?
If you have no proof and the evidence points to the belief not being true should not rational people stop believing it and stop promoting the falsehood?
 

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General Comments / Re: Pre-planned Second Impeachment

« on: January 15, 2021, 05:18:40 PM »

I see. These were not Trump followers at the Trump rally that latter marched but  all 'actors'.
The proof is that Trump followers are not capable of planning action's as real Trump followers are only re-actors, reactors capable of only following and easily misled.

If their was planning it had to be someone else.

Trampers have to blame anyone else but themselves otherwise they might have to questing the source of their information. We see the would as we are not as it is, the shock of seeing thing as they are may be to much for Trampers.   

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell says he has accepted the resignation of Senate Sergeant-at-Arms Michael Stenger a day after a pro-Trump mob stormed the Capitol.
The Kentucky Republican said Thursday in a statement that he had earlier requested the resignation and later received it. He says Stenger’s resignation is effective immediately.

Mitch makes no mention of Pelosi? Odd for a man who will do anything to score pollical points

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General Comments / Re: Now you've done it

« on: January 15, 2021, 02:01:12 PM »

Silly rabbet don't you know that if you can find Waldo then everyone else around him can't be blamed or held accountable.

We have to do everything we can to avoid looking into our own motives and responsibilities or if haven forbid, wonder if we been manipulated and lied to by those we trusted.
Its the 'Waldo' that fooled everyone not those we blindly put our trust into. We are free from having to look at our selves thank the gods

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General Comments / Re: Pre-planned Second Impeachment

« on: January 14, 2021, 05:20:12 PM »

That's right, it's only Trump that wants a do over.

All the states have certified their results as fair and accurate, a judgment made by Republican and Democratic officials alike. There is no prospect for a do-over. Nor has there been a sudden revelation of fraud.

State and federal election officials and Trump’s own attorney general said no systematic fraud was found in the election and no errors of a scale that could possibly change the result.

But again, he's so untethered to reality, I'm not sure you can assert he is lying, ever. He probably saw a quote on 8kun that said so and ran with it. To call it a lie, as opposed to willful ignorance, you'd have to catch him saying the opposite to someone else. He's certainly done that before, but it is a much smaller number of statements.

I've read it somewhere, and even if I can't back up the statement, I can repeat it as a truth. I never lie and most certainly can't be held accountable for what i say or how I say it even if I'm in a leadership position to which more is asked of me.  Catch me if you can, I cannot tell a lie... everyone says so.

Trump lie's. He refuses to do the work and verify his statements before he makes them. 
The election is a fraud because he lost is not poof of fraud, it is a lie!
A lie that he knows is a lie.

You can argue about the system changing rules to disenfranchise voters or make it easier to vote as wrong. However changing the system via the process of the system is not fraud. Cheery picking which states system fraudulent because my guy lost is dishonest.

 If I lose this argument its because you cheated. Everyone says so. I win

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General Comments / Re: 4D chess endgame

« on: January 14, 2021, 03:56:36 PM »

Trumps followers should have know better then to Trust a man with a history of throwing those that associate with him under the bus.

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General Comments / Re: Pre-planned Second Impeachment

« on: January 14, 2021, 03:47:30 PM »

Trumps use of words like, 'them' and 'everyone' as justifications or proof ought to have had you stop and question what he was saying. 'Everyone' thinks so. 

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General Comments / Re: Pre-planned Second Impeachment

« on: January 14, 2021, 03:01:48 PM »

Must be nice to be able to read minds and know with certainty why everyone does was they do. 

You should have given trump the heads up before he gifted with them the capital riots. Such a great leader to fall into that trap...  (Good to know you agree he holds some responsibility here)

I suspect the impeachment will be a win-win for Mitch Mcconnell who I bet wants to get rid of Trump. 
I'd be surprised if Pelosi doesn't retire within the next 2 years. She has misplayed to many hands IMO

One wonders if your attempt to spin the issues at had and blame Pelosi isn't your way of avoiding looking within, at your own enabling capability... but I can't read you mind   

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General Comments / Re: Pre-planned Second Impeachment

« on: January 14, 2021, 02:59:05 PM »

Must be nice to be able to read minds and know with certainty why everyone does was they do. 

You should have given trump the heads up before he gifted with them the capital riots. Such a great leader to fall into that trap...  (Good to know you agree he holds some responsibility here)

I suspect the impeachment will be a win-win for Mitch Mcconnell who I bet wants to get rid of Trump. 
I'd be surprised if Pelosi doesn't retire within the next 2 years, she has misplayed to many hands.

One wonders if your attempt to spin the issues at had and blame Pelosi for all the evil's isn't a your way of avoiding looking within at your own enabling capability... but I can't read you mind   

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General Comments / Re: 4D chess endgame

« on: January 14, 2021, 12:24:43 PM »

That does make sense, the media lying about the COVID-19 response (world record development of a vaccine for a novel virus), claiming insurrection and sedition on a pretty flimsy set of facts and broadly attributing it to hundreds (if not thousands or even all registered Republicans) and now "chatter" of even more violence to justify a massive lockdown to protect the defund the police caucus.  Claims of a mass attack that will never be proven because it never materializes, which negative proof - unlike with voter fraud - is going to be considered proof that these actions were required and justified.   All just to explain how a guy who "received 80 million votes" can't seem to fill his own backyard with supporters. 

You are right it does make sense.  I never realized how cynical the media really was thanks.

Delusional and a hypocrite

"the relationship between Trump and his supporters is an abusive one.  When the mind is hijacked for the benefit of the abuser, it becomes no longer a matter of presenting facts or appealing to logic."

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General Comments / Re: Now you've done it

« on: January 13, 2021, 04:51:29 PM »

He gets a trial in the Senate, probably starting on Jan 19 since McConnell will not call the Senate back early.  If they convict him (with a 2/3 majority) they can then do a simple majority vote to make it impossible to ever hold national office again.  I think McConnell likes this idea because it pulls Trump out of the 2024 race.  I think the GOP main stream members would like this idea. I know at least 3-4 Rep Senators support conviction already.

opps removed my comment that you were responding to

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General Comments / Re: Now you've done it

« on: January 13, 2021, 04:41:46 PM »

Fenring:

Is it the consensus among liberals here that this is in fact what he's trying to do? Or is there room in the narrative that his goal was to rile everyone up and where they went with that is more on them?

His goal was to rile everyone up in order to get them to make sure he keeps his job.  How exactly they went about it was up to them.  But still on him.

He didn't send out specific orders to intimidate congress-critters, but he did wind everyone up with a definite goal in mind.

Trump Jr and Giuliani rally comments leading up to Trump's were very provocative as well. I think both should be held accountable as well. Giuliani should be disbarred at a min

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General Comments / Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?

« on: January 13, 2021, 11:46:24 AM »

So I think we just need to be honest. A big part of this evangelical reckoning is a lot of people sold out their beliefs.
...
I think as this presidency is ending in tatters as it is, hopefully more and more evangelicals will say, "You know, we should have seen earlier, we should have known better, we should have honored the Lord more in our actions these last four years.

I guess he could add to that "as people were literally screaming at us that we were selling out our principles, why did we so adamantly not just ignore them, but demonize them?"

I see no indication within the Evangelical movement towards discernment and taking a hard look at themselves. I suspect that Ed Stetzer will be out of a job soon.

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General Comments / Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:

« on: January 13, 2021, 11:29:22 AM »

“If you read my speech — and many people have done it, and I’ve seen it both in the papers and in the media, on television — it’s been analyzed, and people thought that what I said was totally appropriate,”

All ways "many people", " the people"  the master strawman

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General Comments / Re: Now you've done it

« on: January 12, 2021, 06:01:45 PM »

Why the Trump followers are so loyal to him I don't understand, especially as is  everyone associated with him eventually gets thrown under the bus.
Its gone beyond policy into something that isn't politics.

I don't get it... but it reminds me of other movements in history

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General Comments / Re: Now you've done it

« on: January 11, 2021, 04:16:52 PM »

Breitbart commenters react.

Trump voters ARE_ARMED

Conservative Whites will be treated like the Jews in 1930’s Germany.

This is the warm up for buying guns and ammo
its going to happen by the end of the month

Anyone know what percentage of Trump Conservatives believe this conspiracy?

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General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon

« on: January 11, 2021, 10:57:34 AM »

Their is difference between questioning  and spreading of disinformation
We can disagree on how to interpret the facts of something but if your going to make acquisitions not supported by the facts at hand that's a problem. A problem that isn't political right or left thing its just poor reasoning.

Take the video that Giuliani cut so that it could be taken out of context so it appeared to show fraud. When looking at the full vision the facts come to light and no fraud.  But for those looking for confirmation bias a deep look at the information is not required. Context not required. the doctored video proves their bias and they act on that. Who is to blame her. Giuliani should be disbarred but those who refuse to look at the whole video are also accountable for their failure of discernment. 

Should media outlets that only show the cut version of the video be held accountable. I think so. They should not be viewed as reliable news sources at the minimum.

It seems we only question when it suits us to ask them and that will not lead to dialog , learning or decrement

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General Comments / Re: Election Results

« on: January 09, 2021, 03:07:37 PM »

... it only takes one questionable identification with some other questionable shadow conspiracy to, if not validate the actions of the followers, at least excuses them. The devil made me do it. I was following one devil but got confused by another.  Not my fault.

Anyway you can't blame Trump followers for following that's what followers do. Not their fault if the are easy led and don't pay much attention to who or what they are following. The ends justify the means and who has time to verify the method or information they lap up?

I guess you missed the identification of the many AntiFa activist that came in on a bus that the FBI noted. I guess you missed the many eyewitness reports of the AntiFa activists being called aout by the Trump supporters, and being physically dragged away from the building.  You are on the wrong side of this.

Even if you could prove that the reports you have about AntiFa are based on any factual evidence - beyond the 'trump media' pointing to self referencing "proof".  Does not excused Trump or his followers   

But that's your game. Get people to talk about Antifa in any way and you win. Create doubt, deny, deny, deny and you win. Not just a symptom of the the problem of being able to believe the media, but the creating of the problem you will then use as proof of your "facts" you can't prove and thus justify and excuses your own actions. Not your fault

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General Comments / Re: Election Results

« on: January 09, 2021, 01:12:29 PM »

Wm

Were they thousands of Trump supporters there who were honest protester?  Of course there were.  Were there hundreds of Trump supporters/protesters who became a mob and stormed the Capitol?  Yes with out a doubt. Could there have been some type of infiltrator?  I guess, but so far no evidence, other than anecdotal, supports that.  All of the people who stormed the Capitol who have been identified so far are Trump supporters. Every single one.

And if they were lead astray by AntiFa plants, boy were they like sheep.  Did you hear any comments about standing back, about not entering the Capitol? That what they were doing was wrong?  Of course not. Trump had just basically told them what to do.  Just like Guliani. Trial by Combat.

You don't understand it only takes one questionable identification with some other questionable shadow conspiracy to, if not validate the actions of the followers, at least excuses them. The devil made me do it. I was following one devil but got confused by another.  Not my fault.

Anyway you can't blame Trump followers for following that's what followers do. Not their fault if the are easy led and don't pay much attention to who or what they are following. The ends justify the means and who has time to verify the method or information they lap up?

Facts are for kids, silly rabbit.

Fenring argues that the problem is the system that has undermined our ability to discern what is true. We can't blame Trump or hold him accountable because he's just a symptom of that problem. Even if he manipulated and feeds the problem like some cancer he is only a symptom and their is no point in holding him accountable and cutting out the cancer. As for his followers, they are just followers of the symptom of the problem. Nothing can be done here other then shake our heads and frown at the problem of our inability to discern fact from fiction. 

The followers feed the symptom, but not their fault.  If they get it wrong it must be conspiracy, one they are to smart to fall for, except for the ones they fall for.

32

General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon

« on: January 07, 2021, 04:17:20 PM »

There are people who systematically destroy information integrity for money, and they know they are doing this at least on some level. Whether Trump is duplicitous and doesn't believe any of the stuff he says, or whether he's crazy and believes false things, might change whether he's part of the problem or part of the symptom, but that's not really that important.

Through ignorance or duplicity we are still responsible for our actions. Trump is accountable for his crazy or believing false things. Those that support him are accountable for the things he stood for, crazy or duped. fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me.

But I don't think it's fair to compare whackos who have been misled

Their is a difference yet how do you show the 'misled' where they went wrong if you don't hold them accountable.

  the dystopia involves undermining all knowledge so that it is hard to tell if anything you believe is actually true; or worse, when you don't care if it's true, so long as it fits your internal narrative

Not caring what is true, indifference is a individual character flaw IMO. Why are you so keen to let the off the hook .
Discernment if a skill that a person of character tries to cultivate hard or not. They take responsibility for their success and failures - learn better do better. To throw up their hands because its hard and so declare nothing is true and so believe as that wish is their failing.

Your argmuents remind me of the joke. Looks like *censored*, smells like *censored*, tastes like *censored*... good thing I didn't step in it.

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General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon

« on: January 07, 2021, 03:47:02 PM »

You got it backward. People who blame Trumpists are the ones who believe no one is responsible. That way, the environment itself is totally blame-free and when in a particular instance people behave badly it's just taken as some isolated inexplicable incident.

Perhaps if one only reasoned in 'ether or' terms but that is no better the the error of 'bias conformation'

The problem has become systemic, part of the solution is to hold people accountable while addressing the systemic issues. Either or by them selves won't solve anything. 

 When truth is relative and character is old fashioned where do we stand?

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General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon

« on: January 07, 2021, 03:43:21 PM »

More false equivalence BS. The election wasn't undermined by corruption and fraud. Every state has certified their votes, Barr said the justice department found no evidence of fraud, Trump lawsuits have presented zero fraudulent votes in court, Trump's own head of election security certified the election was secure, and no one has found any widespread voter fraud efforts. All of the certification and statements of accuracy were done in public by named officials and judges, democrats and republicans not unnamed sources.

You gotta re-read my post, I never said any of this stuff. We are talking about people who presumably think the election was stolen. Why do they think this? Did this new breed of stupid person suddenly emerge? Where were they 15 years ago? My thesis is that information warfare has disintegrated everyone's belief in information that's out there, which includes true information. (duh)

What you say is true, but where do you stand on those the manipulate and exasperate this problem? What comes first the chicken or the egg. Was Trump duped by a disbelieving information or did he help create it. believing only what he wanted to believe and manipulating the mistrust.
Perhaps its the education system to blame not teaching people to look past conformation bias - the new old stupid.  Don't blame the stupid blame the education system and the "media" what ever that is today. 

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General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon

« on: January 07, 2021, 03:18:07 PM »

This should only show everyone how dangerous information warfare (which is waged against all Americans every day) is. Because if a lawful election really was undermined by corruption and fraud then this would not only be a legitimate action to take, but in the American spirit would almost be required if you had any honor. So only on the grounds that the fraud charge is bogus does this instead look like sore loser bullying. And this is a distinction not just about worldview but about actual information on the ground. X is either true or it is not true, and the extent to which information is no longer trusted because words on a page are just chicken scratch handed down from "unnamed insider sources" or "senior officials" means that it being true or not true is utterly beyond anyone's ability to discern. This isn't an R vs D issue, it's an issue fundamental to the very fabric of the American media and political system. It pays to spin truth, lie, distort, omit facts, and create narratives often from whole cloth. You can claim a gas attack in Syria was done by Assad, and who other than 0.0000001% of the population is actually there on scene inspecting evidence to know whether he did it or his opponents, blaming him for it? For that matter, how can anyone even know there was a gas attack? Pictures? But we know that MSM networks are caught all the time using fake or old photos to show 'breaking news'. They are just Hollywood television studios where their product is "news style programming". That they will typically still report on actual events is a given; you have to mostly stick to real stuff for the scheme to work. But beyond that there's a reason why many people don't trust even the most basic information, anything ranging from climate change to vaccines to whether an election was fraudulent or not.

You can blame the Trumpers if you like, but they, like Trump himself, are a symptom of a deeply ingrained problem that is perpetuated through denial mostly. 'No, that couldn't happen in my country, the problem is THEM.' That's why scapegoating works, it's believable and easier than having to get up and do something. And the scapegoat can even be guilty to a degree of this or that, that makes it even easier to do; MAGA people might be easy prey to pick on. But they are not the reason why the media isn't trustworthy.

Again a reasoned ground where no one is a fault or held accountable.  It is the  symptom of a ingrained problem at fault never those that manipulate and exasperate the problem.  Trump just a play in a game that is flawed, not his fault. Not his followers fault who don't understand the scientific method and so turn to conspiracy theory's, and the lack of proof as proof. Can't blame them for ignorance and repeating lies told them.

No one accountable. You stand nowhere.

What is this 'media' if the message is the medium?

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General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon

« on: January 07, 2021, 01:56:36 PM »

AntiFa the new boggy man?
We have not facts, we have no evidence, I can't be wrong - antifa did it and if not who ever they are, then the devil made me do it.
Whatever, I'm not accountable.

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General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon

« on: January 07, 2021, 12:38:51 PM »

Interesting he actually said he would be their with them. A statement that seemed to imply physically present, and it was this statement that seemed to wake up the crowd.
Of course it will be argued that Trump didn't mean he wouldn't be with them physically, Trump never means what he says unless he says it, so none of his followers will blame him for not 'being their with them'.

Cognitive dissonance? By refusing to consider character as a virtue Trump followers cannot see the man as he is.   

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General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon

« on: January 07, 2021, 10:50:37 AM »

Ronald Reagan spinning in his grave
I didn't leave the Republican Party, the party imploded and went to hell.

39

General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon

« on: January 06, 2021, 02:54:53 PM »

Trump's rally appears to have incited violence can and or should he be held accountable.
He is in my opinion has been calling fire in a crowded theater when their is no fire.

Is this the straw the breaks the camels back with Trump's legacy being that of a tarator?
I can't see this ending well for him, not that he will be held accountable but that he losses what's left of his sanity. 

40

General Comments / Re: What to do with actual election fraud?

« on: January 05, 2021, 03:47:25 PM »

Of course that is not logical - which I guess proves that the followers and Trump are not elites
Its a neat trick.

41

General Comments / Re: What to do with actual election fraud?

« on: January 05, 2021, 03:16:13 PM »

By Definition Trump is a élite. I would argue the kind of élite to whom the rules do not apply, the kind of elite his follower hate.
However he is not a elite because his followers view him as one of them and so set him up on a pedestal.... a elite status.
 
The followers seeing Trump as one of them become the elite... who they hate and can't trust? They have created what they fear.

Their is some weird psychological crap going on...

42

General Comments / Re: What to do with actual election fraud?

« on: January 05, 2021, 01:23:19 PM »

But he still has that hard block of voters he started with in July/August of 2015.  These are the guys who just hate the elites.

Begs the question of what and who are the elites.
It seems today the only place the elite are allowed is in sport. Any where else we do not trust them unless of course they fit our image, but then who is the elitist?
It is ourselves we hate?

43

General Comments / Re: What to do with actual election fraud?

« on: January 05, 2021, 11:58:43 AM »

Trump is either delusional or lying Psychopath . I suspect the latter, a psychopath that has drunk his own cool aid.

For reasons I don't understand history shows that many people are attracted to such people. 

44

General Comments / Re: What to do with actual election fraud?

« on: January 05, 2021, 10:50:33 AM »

Any one who listens to the GA SOS phone call and does not see Trump trying to extort votes is lacking in comprehension. Almost every legal scholar sees this as a violation of state and federal law. Trump will probably pardon himself for the Federal crime, but my guess is he will be prosecuted on a state level.

With all that is going on in the world, Trump is focused on one thing.  Not finding out who did the cyber attack.  Not working on a plan for the vaccine. But on trying to extort a few thousand votes so he can win one state.

Trump showed he real politician. In the hour long phone call he speaks clearly and carefully (unlike his usual ramblings showing once again he knows exactly what he's doing when he communicates as he does)

Trump dances on the line of extortion but I suspect Seriati is correct on this one.

Trump knew exactly what he was doing and we all know what Trump was trying to do, but making the case it was illegal is another thing. Once again he will not be held accountable for the seeds he is sowing. The opposite actually, his base will see the call as proof of fraud. It would not surprise me if it was Trump that released the recording.

45

General Comments / Re: What could Trump do to cause his supporters to vote against him?

« on: January 04, 2021, 05:24:38 PM »

The only way to get better candidates is to hold the candidates that you support to account for their behavior, you get no where holding the other guy's candidates to "account," or demanding that they do so.  It's literally impossible to accept moralizing in support of a party that has no problem with an Adam Schiff but wants others to have problems with a Donald Trump, or even that liked Donald Trump before he was a politician and declared him the devil afterwards.

The only way to get better candidates is to hold the candidates that you support to account for their behavior, you get no where holding the other guy's candidates to "account," or demanding that they do so.  It's literally impossible to accept moralizing in support of a party that has no problem with an 'Trump' but wants others to have problems with a 'Adam Schiff' , or even that liked Donald Trump before he was a politician and declared him the devil afterwards.

You apply standards you don't hold yourself to.

46

General Comments / Re: What to do with actual election fraud?

« on: January 04, 2021, 05:18:26 PM »

Trump was repeating, ad nauseam before the election, that if he lost, it would be because of fraud.  He lost.  The only rational explanation was that there was fraud.  This is all the evidence he needs.

And it has been enough to convince, after endless repetition, a huge swathe of the country.

They cannot see their shadow and so create what they fear

47

General Comments / Re: What to do with actual election fraud?

« on: January 04, 2021, 04:15:45 PM »

If you really believe something is true you can't be held accountable and if you can't prove something didn't happen it is proof that something did happen.
That's just common sense which over 1/3 of the population accepts, which is even more proof their was fraud.
What's not to get?

48

General Comments / Re: What will Trump do in his last 28 days?

« on: December 23, 2020, 05:31:50 PM »

A man of reason has devoured his own tail and become a strawman like his master

The left has told us as if the left has ever spoken with one voice. Or is it Hillary that speaks for all... but sure her comments or equivalent to that of a president (maybe in your eyes she won)
The entire DNC... your powers of knowing what everyone thinks is amazing.   

In the past when you argued about policies I used to think that often you have a point. Now I cannot see you as anything but a apologist and worse a appeaser blind to the impact of your fact-less conspiracy "reasoning".   

49

General Comments / Re: Election Results

« on: December 17, 2020, 06:23:27 PM »

Democrats are masters of rationalization.  Since they always have to believe they are the good guys, they'll buy in and publish completely false statements that sound plausible.

Projection much?

50

General Comments / Re: Election Results

« on: December 17, 2020, 06:20:31 PM »

The integrity of the electoral process is gone, and no one is going to do anything meaningful to get it back.  Instead the left is going to increase the rate at which they undermine it.  They don't believe in actual Democracy because they honestly can't believe that their side may be unpopular.  If Democrats lose an election its proof that the voters that are wrong, not that the the Democrats, are.  If they win by even just one vote (even if they got thousands of fraudulent votes) then it is  an absolute mandate to do anything they want, even the things they lied about wanting to do to get elected.  I mean honestly, this is not a mandate election, it's clear we have a divided country, but if they get those 2 Senate seats they've already said they're going to make massive structural changes.

No one can catch mail fraud and prove it at scale.  It can not be done.  The evidence that is required is deliberately secret and often destroyed.

You have devoured your own tail. 

Trumpism has created the thing it feared but will never take responsibility.  (Not surprising as its foundation is F.E.A.R. - False Evidence (not even) Appearing Real) . 
Without any proof it has been decided,  the election process has no integrity. The only proof that matters, my man has lost even though everything before the election pointed towards him losing.
Never wondering if Trumps better then expected results could be fraud....

A man who prides himself on logic and reason of his arguments has thrown his reason away and stands on nothing.
No if the integrity is in question you and those that follow Trump as if a god have done it. 
Shame on you