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Messages - noel c.

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General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 16, 2020, 12:01:40 PM »

“noel, you do understand there is no continuity between the Greek/Persian conflicts and the Greek/Turkey right?”

Are you making the point that a 2,500 year separation in time marks a difference in the specific “war”. Yes, I realize that.

“Like, not even on the Greek side?”

Are you speaking racially now?

“It's different people with different religions from different polities fighting for different reasons.“

- You are saying that the racial makeup is different, partially.
- You are saying that Darius was not moslem, check.
- Different Political structures, partially.
- Different reasons, that begs the question.

“That it occupies the same geographical space is because people have lived there for a long time.”

No, that people have lived there for a long time is what permits ethnic continuity.

“Ethnic priorities? We don't have time to unpack all that but it is spectacularly wrong. For one thing, British is not an ethnicity.“

The English ruling dynasty called their nation Britain. If I said “English”, would that simplify things for you?

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 16, 2020, 10:09:28 AM »

“Yours, noel, is exactly the monomaniacal racist obsession, plus the dishonest failure to hear anything that the other person is saying that I fully expect from a Trump supporter.“

And alleged “racist” obsession between Greeks and Turks, or Turks and Iranians? You are being moronic. There is a shared genetic origin between the latter two, and the Hellenes made a significant contribution to Turkish ancestry prior to the arrival of the Selijuks. Racial makeup is secondary in any case if we are looking at ethnicity, which is where issues underlying conflict are found.

“From your fake pretense to supposedly care about what the Greek-Turkey conflict is about... “

There was nothing “fake” about my question, and your explanation remains superficial. You are basically saying that there is conflict, because there is conflict. That does not really tell me anything.

“... to deliberately trying to twist it that it's about immigrants and a supposed cultural conflict, even when I'm telling you it's not... “

You stated; “You could inflate this count by listing incidental issues like Greece accusing Turkey weaponising the movement of refugees towards Greece... “

These refugees are Syrian, correct? Some of these Syrians were recruited, and trained, by the Turks as “mercenaries“, correct? How is that “twisting” what you said?

“... because that's just what your particular brand of Trumpist evil demands.”


“... Oh, man, Syrian jihadists! What would you do without Syrian jihadists. Well, Greece and Turkey would still be fighting, since Syrian jihadists would not even be a footnote in a 100-page volume about the Greece-Turkey conflict... “

You made quite a production out of the absence of a “single“ terrorist attack in Greece. What you meant by Turkey “weaponizing” refugees might be interesting, but it definitely would have added to the discussion if you had informed me that Greece functions as a safe training, propaganda, and terrorist gateway into Europe. You brought up the religious aspect of ethnic conflict, not me.

“... but you don't care about that. You'll focus on ‘Syrian jihadists’, because that's what your prejudice demands.“

Pull your head out. What your comments “demand” is an explanation of Turkish motivations behind the refugee “weaponization”.

“Your comparisons between Turkey and Persia (please do include the Trojans too next time) are still absurd, whether you try to put it in cultural, ethnic or racial terms.”

Again, what “terms”, other than ethnicity go to root causes?

“If you were both sane and honest you could have tried geography instead, and seen why a sea-based military power makes sense to hold power in the islands and hellenic peninsula, while a land-based military power makes sense to hold power in Anatolia itself“

That identifies a preferred modality of conflict, but not a cause. England’s navy was very effective against Napoleon, but the Anglo-Franco conflict was not an issue over sea power vs. a land power. It was about a difference in ethnic priorities.

“...  - but you wouldn't do that, because that wouldn't allow you to be *censored*ty towards people based on their ancestry, which is your endgoal here, not achieving actual understanding”

So, it it Greek, or Turkish, “ancestry” that I am out to disparage? This exchange has expanded my understanding, just not in the expected area.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 16, 2020, 02:11:58 AM »
Apparently, my browser cannot read Greek links. The author of “EXPLAINING THE ABSENCE OF ISLAMIST TERRORIST ATTACKS AND RADICALISATION IN GREECE” is *Dr Dimitris Skleparis, Research Associate at the University of Glasgow

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 16, 2020, 01:54:09 AM »
I appreciate the lead Aris, but you do not need to respond. I think that I answered my question. :

“Thanks, that type of feedback would have been appropriate earlier. So what are these Syrian ‘mercenaries’ dong while in Greece?“


“Radical Islamist groups could participate in low-risk assignments, such as recruitment, funding, propaganda and training in the country (Greece).”

“In recent years, Greece has been used as a transit country by individuals who travel to and from conflict zones with ‘unclear motives’. Only in 2016, 15 suspected Jihadists were arrested transiting through Greece, according to the recent Europol annual report.”γιατί-το-ισλαμικό-κράτος-δεν-έχει-πλήξ/

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 16, 2020, 01:21:36 AM »

“You're so ignorant of Greece-Turkey history that you were confusing Turks and Persians... “

No, I let your interpolation slide out of courtesy. You did not carefully read what I said, and there was no confusion of Persians with the Turks. That was your contribution. There is a 2,500 year old history of conflict at the Bosporus, and it is not a reach to look for ongoing cultural causes. As you are aware, race and ethnicity are not the same thing.

“... and then you had the audacity of trying to teach me lessons about what the conflict really is about, rather than hearing me. *censored* off, you ignorant bigoted *censored*.“

So that is what this is about, my ”audacity“.

“And btw, Greece has never had a single incident of Islamist terrorism (despite having about a million muslim immigrants since the early 1990s), we have had a LOT of Christian genocidal mass-murderers though. Enough of them that they participated in the Serb-bosnian genocide at Srebnenica, and became 3rd national party for a time, before getting thrown into jail very recently for being a criminal gang.“

Thanks, that type of feedback would have been appropriate earlier. So what are these Syrian “mercenaries” dong while in Greece?

“And those same neonazis (literal worshippers of Adolf Hitler) also heartily supported Trump btw.”

That settles it, Trump must be a ‘fascist‘, right?

“That will, of course, not give you pause. Nor will you wonder why neonazis across the world loved Trump.“

You must really need to get this off your chest. How many neonazis across the world do you know?

General Comments / Re: Welcome to the New Ornery American Forums!
« on: November 16, 2020, 01:20:18 AM »

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 16, 2020, 12:20:15 AM »

“You maliciously refuse to listen.”

Now that is a novel form of malice. Possibly there is a deficiency in your responses?

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 16, 2020, 12:14:37 AM »

“Seriously? You must have exactly the same opinion as the president and his son's to each individual claim of voter fraud they make?”

Individual fraud will not be made public, especially if uncovered by an attorney, without prosecution and conviction. On that I am certain their opinion matches mine.

“Before there are charges there is evidence of a crime. Trump's out finding all this crime and fraud why can't we get a sneak peak.“


“So now its there is no concern about fraud (except maybe the signature match conflicts) but Trump's going to try to get a bunch of ballots tossed out on technicalities.”

No, read what I wrote.

“I'm for upholding the law and rooting out real fraud but looking for any reason to get rid of ballots not cast for you isn't a democratic ideal.”

Nor is that what I, or Trump, have said, or implied. I appreciate your concern for the rule of law though, it is just impossible believe you.

“That was half sarcasm, half worst case of what I think Trump is capable of. I don't expect it. But Trump has the temperament to try. I think he would if the military and police forces would go along with him. Let's say I have more confidence in our military and law enforcement to make it a big concern but I fully believe Trump would love to see enough violence on the streets that he could try to trigger the insurrection act.“

That is your best response to Antifa throwing fireworks at restaurant patrons?

“I added back in the statement I was directly responding too. Prosecutions don't work that way but publicizing does.“


“Shrug, if Trump on his way out the door declassifies documents exposing Biden's alleged corruption then I'll enjoy watching Republicans decide if they want to impeach him and welcome in President Harris. Note I don't think any such documents exist.“

Yes, I knew you felt that way, and certainly Biden would be better neutralized as a political cypher, than an ex-president. For the record; what Barry ”declassified“ did not “exist“. That failed prevent a release under the aegis of “... all intelligence sources agree”. Biden already has problems on that count.

So, does using government bureaucracy to neutralize an election bother you, or is it only a problem when you do not like the results?

“No, not on this thread. Your just looking to change the subject from the abject lack of evidence of voter fraud to anything else.”

What thread will you answer it on?

“You jumped off with Aris on the history of conflicts in Greece and you want to jump off and rehash some old ground on FISA warrants here.”

“Rehash”, as in you failed to answer the question before, and you’re stickin’ with your story. That does not sound like a “jump-off“ if you are serious about understanding why Republicans are standing by Trump. (Which you have asked me repeatedly)

“So Trump declaring an election null and void is entertainment? We have different ideas of what constitutes entertainment.“

I do not see how that would work constitutionally, but I am certain what he ultimately does will be entertaining. I am already anticipating your principled indignation.

“Suppose so since Trump has been planting those seeds for four years. Odd he didn't spend more time as president working on securing elections.”

Supreme Court decisions are a fairly effective means of securing elections, don’t you agree?

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 15, 2020, 10:57:16 PM »

“How is any of this Eastern/Western cultural divide, especially if you mean Turkey representing the East and Greece the West?“

That was the right question.

“I mean the *minority* thing is a case where it's Greece that fails to uphold the Western norms of recognizing ethnic minorities, and instead does a thing where it does an "Eastern" thing and treats religion as the identifying mark of a community, rather accepting their own ethnic self-identification.“

Technically, Islam, missed the classical era altogether.

By “classical” I was thinking more along the lines of Greek/Persian comparisons, which from historical Greek sources cite political structure alone as differentiating Easterners ”slaves“ to monarchs, and themselves, the self-governed. Aeschylus, Aristotle, and Alexander the Great may have been representing Greek ethnicity from a “bigoted” perspective, and slavery was certainly present in their culture, but their basic concept was correct, just not universally applied. Islam does happen to be undemocratic, and that is not an “echo inside (my) head”, it is an empirical fact.

Can you give me an answer on that basis? Does Greece violate the religious and ethnic rights of the Turkish minority in Western Thrace? If so, how, and why?

“Turkey weaponising the movement of refugees towards Greece”

Directing 3.6 million Syrian refugees to Greek points of entry, more recently mercenaries recruited from their ranks, does seem like a cultural assault. What are these people doing when they arrive in Greece?

“Not to mention that even if I gave you that point (which I really *censored*ing DON'T) you really focused on one of the 7 bullet points, and you then pretended that all seven bullet points are about your stupid nonsensical East/West cultural divide.“

“It's almost all about resources, borderlines, and militaries“

It is never “all about resources, borderlines, and militaries”, but if that is what you have, fine.

“The moment you stop showing your bigoted prejudices. You asked what the Greece/Turkey conflict was about, and then you failed to listen a single word I said, because your head is filled with prejudice and bigotry. Stop listening to the echoes inside your head, and actually *censored*ing read what other people are saying for once.“

I read, and understood, what you said Aris.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 15, 2020, 07:15:19 PM »

“For the UK, mate. In November 2015 the british pound was worth up to 1.42 euro -- 5 years later, November 2020 it's now worth 1.12 euro. That's a fall of more than 20% of their currency's value.”

A devaluation should help their international trade competitiveness.

“And the full consequences of brexit haven't even been seen yet, as UK is still in the customs union until end of the current year.”

I have no idea of how that will resolve either, but relinking Britain’s economy to the E.U. is foolish if an emphasis on American trade replaces it.

“You said that UK has a "strong ally" in America, and you instead gave me examples of UK being an ally of America. I'm asking about the different direction, what has the United States done for the UK?”

You make this sound like a parent/child relationship. It is not America’s responsibility to “do” something for Britain. Trade agreements are bilateral. Britain’s best hope is that Trump pulls off an upset. We already know about Barry’s position that “Brexit would put UK ‘back of the queue’ for trade talks”.

“No. Not a single issue I mentioned is about the 'classical East/West cultural divide', or indeed about culture at all. It's almost all about resources, borderlines, militaries. I wonder how the f*ck in h*ll you came to a conclusion that it's supposedly about "the classical East/West cultural divide".


Turkey claims Greece violates the religious and ethnic rights of the Turkish minority in Western Thrace. Greece refuses to recognize the minority as "Turkish" at all, and instead calls it a "muslim" minority.[/u]

These are basically the "permanent" issues. You could inflate this count by listing incidental issues like Greece accusing Turkey weaponising the movement of refugees towards Greece, or Turkey accusing Greece of assisting Kurdish terrorists, or various other accusations over the years, but those aren't really ‘disputes’ and ‘conflicts’ in the sense that the above bulletpoints are.”

“Frankly I think your prejudice is showing.”

Are you capable of any other criteria of analysis?

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 15, 2020, 06:38:47 PM »

“I was clearly characterizing Trump's and his son's position there not yours. Why do you think a statement about what Trump and his son's have tweeted was describing your position?”

Their position must, of necessity, match mine, as applied to individual cases of voter fraud.

“Why wouldn't Trump be advised when his team uncovers fraudulent votes? Its literally what he's paying all these lawyers to do, find fraudulent votes and help tip the scales back in his favor. Why wouldn't he be informed of any success they had?”

You are not going to be seeing the fraud that you are asking for without charges, and convictions. The public stuff is institutional ie.; State court constitutional violations, obstructed poll observer access, unpostmarked ballot acceptance, signature match conflicts, etc., none of which is “conspiratorial”, and some of which can only be detected by a hand-recount.

“I'm not the one who believes Trump believes everything he tweets.”

Right, but you think he is going to declare martial law, and barricade the White House.  ;)

“If only Trump had a way to pick up his phone and get a message to 100's of millions of people at once.“

Prosecutions do not work that way.

“Yep he's President until Jan 20th at noon.”

He is President until, at least, noon on January 20th.

“I'm concerned he'll try to pull something in the interim to change that. He clearly admires dictators and strong men and their method of ruling.”

Maybe he will trigger a FISA breach of all intelligence agencies, prompting a bulk release of Biden’s Ukraine/China family business holdings (even if spurious) leaked to all media outlets. They would have to report the story, or Fox News would scoop them. It could be timed to pour cold-water on an incoming president’s first briefing on the matter by Director Wray during an entrapment attempt. Biden’s ability to govern would then be ham-strung, as he is too feeble to actually fight back. It would effectively keep Kamala at bay for the next four years... or until Uncle Joe passes away, whichever comes first.

Hey, are you ever going to explain why FISA abuse is okay if a couple of unrelated perjury convictions emerge from the effort?

“He is still claiming the election was rigged without evidence. What are you willing to accept from the man if he declares the election illegal, null, tries to retain power. Because he's heading that direction.”

Sit down with a bag of pop-corn. Trump is the ultimate entertainer.

“Maybe the rest of the people around in power ignore him beginning Jan 20th at 12:01pm. But until that time he can cause some damage... “

Unfortunately, Trump is already well acquainted with that through his predecessor.

“... and refusing to leave quietly isn't a good tradition and is going to leave our country divided for years... “

You really fail to understand, that horse has already left the barn.

“... as Trump acolytes unjustifiably lose faith in elections because their Great Leader fed them a load of BS about a rigged election and voter fraud.”

Again, you are a little late in concerning yourself with that.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 15, 2020, 05:46:48 PM »

“Nobody's disputing that it was a choice the British made democratically, but catastrophic choices can also be made democratically.”

True, but “catastrophic“ for who? Britain felt the same parasitic drag from E.U. membership that the U.S. feels from NATO membership. There is something to be learned by the E.U. from that.

"Has a strong ally in America"? Not under Trump, no. What makes you think it?“

In 2015, Cameron anticipated a “golden era” of Chinese/U.K. cooperation, including Chinese investment in crucial British infrastructure such as nuclear power plants, and a 5G network. Essentially, the Brits fell for the same “Silk Road Economic Belt" strategy that China has successfully employed in loan-sharking much smaller nations into economic subjugation. This was not going to work for Trump. Cameron thought he could finesse security interoperability objections coming from the U.S., but the arrest in December 2018 of Huawei's CFO in Vancouver sent that strategy into a coffin, then the American chip and technology embargo last May drove nails into the lid.

Johnson placed a 100% ban on Huawei from the U.K.’s 5G infrastructure in July. Downing Street has also worked with Australia, Canada, and the U. S. to impose sanctions on China for its imposition of the new security law in Hong Kong. As Churchill once said; “Americans (British) will always do the right thing, only after they have tried everything else.”

“Haven't the UK and USA failed so far to make a post-Brexit trade deal either? In what way is the USA and UK allies, during the Trump administration?”

The single obstacle to that trade agreement, which Britain vitally needs, is now gone.

“These are basically the ‘permanent’ issues. You could inflate this count by listing incidental issues like Greece accusing Turkey weaponising the movement of refugees towards Greece, or Turkey accusing Greece of assisting Kurdish terrorists, or various other accusations over the years, but those aren't really "disputes" and "conflicts" in the sense that the above bulletpoints are.”

At the root of this, and your bullet points, seem to be the classical East/West cultural divide. Is that a fair conclusion?

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 15, 2020, 01:43:47 PM »

“More like 500 or 600. I suppose you would say ‘100‘ years only if you count Turkey from the time of the formation of the modern Turkish state, but obviously the Turkish nation significantly preexisted that one, as the leaders of the Ottoman empire.”

I entertained a 2,500 year conflict if Darius was used as the starting point, but Persia’s incorporation of ancient Turkey was punctuated by occupation of Byzantines in the west, and Seljuks in the east. So, what is the conflict about?

“As long as you don't pretend it's not a racial thing, that's my point: That Republicans don't want Puerto Rico joining because they're Hispanics.“

Your comment is inherently racist. I have ample reason to object to cultural encroachment, which is entirely unrelated to pigmentation.

“Of course the thing about Puerto Rico is that it's currently not independent. Democracy demands that either it fully participates in American democracy or it becomes independent. Half-way solutions are undemocratic.“

I agree, does Puerto Rico want, and can it survive, “independence”?

“So you think him a person prone to delusions, not just lies, and you still voted for him?“

I think Trump takes personal ownership of whatever he controls, and does so very effectively. I trusted that he would manage America with the same care that he would one of his own properties. He has.

The alternative of a prevaricating kleptomaniac, who has made a business out of dispensing government largesse, was simply not an acceptable option to me.

“I mean ‘often delusional’ may be the one thing that's worse and more dangerous for his position than ‘habitual liar’.”

”Habitual lying” seems to be the norm among politicians. The ability to implement what you call “delusions” is actually quite rare, and valuable.

“Why are you assuming Trump really thought it, instead of just pretending to?”

Because his lack of educational breath in areas outside of real estate development, and showmanship, leave him vulnerable to those kinds of claims. Fortunately, he knows enough to surround himself with people who can compensate for that deficiency, and he is a quick study.

“Nah, Trump only got 70 million votes. That's like what only 1/5th of American citizens? I'm pretty sure I'd despise equivalent numbers of humanity everywhere.“

Polling takes a broader sampling than that, and circa March 24th his approval rating was at 49%. You need to spread the vitriol a little more generously.

“And up to Trump's presidency, America and its president was the ‘leader of the free world’. Sometimes (e.g. under G.W. Bush) it was the moronic brainless leader of the free world, but the leader of the free world nonetheless.“

Yes, the EU does have difficulty paying its debts. America’s decision to step away from the sugar-daddy role was not popular with European leaders, but even Merkel eventually came around when confronted with political realities.

“With Trump, America lost its leadership and became a rogue nation.“

America is the Elephant in the room that only a fool ignores at their peril. Our priorities have shifted from an aging, and flagging Europe, to the Indo-Pacific. The future lies in emerging nations, especially India. Your “world” can follow, or be left behind... their choice.

“Have you noticed that even Trump's supporters don't call the US president the leader of the free world anymore?”

Are platitudes now a measure of world leadership?

“Not when he's the ally of people like Putin... “

You should notify Putin of his status. I am pretty sure that Russia is chafing under Trump’s economic sanctions.

“... and he instead acts as the ambassador of his wishes to G7 instead. Not when he's pulling out of major treaties, not when he's treating all its former allies as enemies instead.“

Perhaps our allies would deign to start honoring their NATO comments, and speaking of Russian complicity; who is the primary beneficiary of Russian gas development/exportation?

“Right now the free world is leaderless -- the USA a rogue nation under Trump... “

The “free world” is larger than Europe, and if they do not get their stuff together, they will not be part of the free world.

“UK isolated after the catastrophic Brexit, EU slow-moving and disunited without the institutions yet in place (or likely ever) to hold a united front.“

Britain has a strong ally in America. That was a choice which the British made democratically. Perhaps it is the fractured EU that is feeling isolated?

“And taking advantage of America's Trump-instigated absense, the imperialist ambitions of nations like Russia, China, Turkey are rising, threatening all their neighbours with war.”

That sounds like a perfect rationale for the EU to pay their NATO dues, refuse dependence upon Russian fuel, and be more timely in supporting the Wauwei embargo, among other things.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 15, 2020, 11:58:11 AM »

“Really? Trump or Don Jr. wouldn't have tweeted about it like they have tweeted about so many debunked voter fraud conspiracy theories. They only tweet out the false claims but keep the real evidence and cases secret?”

You love the idea of “conspiracy”, which I have never asserted. Would you object to representing my position ”honestly“? Tweeting out regarding a collection of individual cases is not something that I would expect Trump, or Don Jr. to be even informed of, much less “tweeting” about.

“Yes. Otherwise Trump would be tweeting in all caps about them. Unless it was someone caught double voting for him. Then maybe he would have stayed silent.”

You are much more naive than I believed you to be.

“You're really looking for a subject change huh?”

The subject is not new with this post, nor is your evasion. I would like an ”honest, and informed”, if overdue, answer. Can you do that? I would also like Your reaction to Antifa throwing fireworks at restaurant patrons. Do you see how the left might be perceived as a little looney?

“Tough to back up all those voter fraud claims with no evidence so far. How long do you think those investigations will take to find 1 fraudulent vote?”

”Finding” them is less of a time issue than publicizing them.

“Does Trump get to stay president for the entire investigation?”

Do you really want me to believe that you are this naive? You do realize that he is President until January 20th irrespective of election results, correct? What circumstances in the interim dictate regarding Biden will be addressed as necessary, but probably no more than necessary.

“I'm sure he can stretch it out for 4 years. Declare some martial law in the meantime. How far will you support him?”

Okay, you do not care if you sound ridiculous. Not my problem.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 15, 2020, 11:08:53 AM »

“How many fraudulent votes has Trump's team uncovered in 11 days of investigating?”

I doubt that specific instances would be publicized without a charge, and conviction, of the individual involved. Give investigation the time required.

“So your response is instead answering Trump has identified 0 fraudulent votes in 11 (now 12) days of investigating...

Do you seriously believe that “0” cases of voter fraud have been uncovered?

How is your research into Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act abuse coming? Is it still exemplar of the fair administration of justice? Can you give an “honest”, and informed, answer?

For all of the expressed concern regarding anticipated Trump rally violence, it appears Antifa has reappeared on the stage. :

Any comment?

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 15, 2020, 10:28:35 AM »

The database is current through 2020.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 15, 2020, 10:13:40 AM »

“Because I will be very disappointed if Biden or any Democrat starts behaving like Trump and citing him as an exemplar of what's allowable behavior.”


General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 15, 2020, 10:00:46 AM »

“The real reason for alleging fraud was NOT in the expectation of proving actual fraud, but rather that the Trump campaign had hopes of turning at least a couple of state legislatures against their voters' decisions...“

Since when does paranoid partisan prognostication become a “real reason”?

Trump supporters could easily retort; “... the real reason lefties want a premature concession is that they fear exposure of fraudulent voting.” Trump supporters have already witnessed the uncovering of Obama’s illegal surveillance of the Trump 2016 campaign organization, a Democratic FBI Director’s attempt to tee-up a President-elect for impeachment on his first “courtesy briefing” of the notorious Steel dossier, systemic destruction of FISA protections in a post-election Obama executive order effecting sixteen separate U.S. intelligence agencies, and a fruitless two-year Democratic House impeachment investigation headed by a special counsel who previously sought, and was denied, an FBI Director presidential appointment only hours prior to deputy DOJ Director Rosenstein’s alternate Special Counsel appointment. Senile Robert Muller, as special executor, aided by eighteen “angry“ Democrat prosecutors and lawyers, could not subsequently even follow the contents of his own $35,000,000 report before the House Judiciary, and Intelligence Committees.

No, Biden, as one of those FISA identity “unmasking“ abuse participants, does not merit any special consideration from Trump.

“... and the widespread belief in fraud by his supporters would give those legislatures political cover... “

To the extent any such “cover” exists, it was gifted by Democrats to the Republicans.

“... - we even saw suggestions to that effect being made this past week (notwithstanding that many people even here on Ornery correctly predicted this gambit well before election day)... ”

Yes, Ornery has a national influence that no president should underestimate.  ;)

“ ; but now, given the margins in the popular vote and the EC college, it would seem highly unlikely that any relevant state house would risk the wrath of its electorate to do so.”

Right, “the best laid plans... “

Take a breath, and let the President’s challenges play out under American protocols Canadian. You will have 16% of Alberta’s oil-shale based economy decimated soon enough.


“Do you have a source for that? How many were Biden votes vs. Trump votes?”

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 15, 2020, 01:51:29 AM »

“By your comparison between Greece and Turkey, I guess you are implying that Puerto Rico is a great military threat to the United States, with many times the military might of the United States, and thus you are worried about giving it any more leverage over you, because you are worried it'll use such leverage to conquer your land and annex your territories.”

It is a reasonable comparison. Have you ever heard of the term “Reconquista”? It is a Central American recast of the 9th century Christian expulsion of Arabs from the Iberian peninsula. When I was in a California High School, the MECHA club members graffitied “LA RAZA“ on everything that would accept spray paint. It was not a slogan of inclusivity, or assimilation. It was a hopeful chant of annexing the American Southwest. I did not take their aspirations seriously until it became obvious that the California Democratic Party could turn the movement into a cash cow (the “Needy Latino” formula spoken of by John Podesta).

I visited that school about ten years ago. In a middle to upper middle class neighborhood that was 95% Caucasian, it is now 5% Caucasian, 44% Latino, 39% Asian, 20% Black, and 5% Pacific Islander. 78% of the student body are from an “economically disadvantaged” household, as determined by student eligibility for California's Reduced-price meal program. Academic achievement is reflected in the change, as is on campus violence.

The cultural effect upon the school that I remember is not positive.

I really don’t understand what it is between the Greeks, and Turks, but that conflict has lasted for about 100 years. At minimum there must be a cultural disjuncture. America is not designed to accommodate that degree of Balkanization. The Mexicans call the emerging social order “Azatlan”. Look it up.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 14, 2020, 11:46:25 PM »

“You seriously, honestly, think that Trump believes what he is saying?“

Yes, and I am surprised that you do not. With his sense of self, how could he not believe what he is saying?

“Trump doesn't give a fart about the truth. See ‘Birthergate’ and every other conspiracy theory he's been willing to spew.“

He thought that Ted Cruz’s farther was a communist Castro disciple too, because he saw it in the Enquirer.

“LOL. So much for other people supposedly doing circular reasoning. You're not saying an investigation is always needed, you're saying an investigation is needed because you decided that the Democrats are evil.“

I am saying that they are not trustworthy.  That is a predictable consequence arising from a political perspective that rests, for example, in a presumption that the Supreme Court is right because they have the power to declare themselves right.

“Well, I've decided then that Trump and every *censored* who voted for him is evil and suspect of voting fraud, as evidenced by how Trump admires president-for-life Putin, as evidenced by how Trump urged his voters to vote twice, as evidenced by how he said he would seek a third term as president, even though that was blatantly unconstitutional.“

Objectively “unconstitutional” or expediently unconstitutional? If you ever run for public office, I encourage you to act on your suspicions.

“Trump has repeatedly proven that he'd do anything to get and maintain powers, and that he admires other people (again like Putin) who would do anything to get and maintain power -- while he's supported by blatantly neo-fascist groups who hate democracy and all it stands for.“

No, Trump is not fascist, but he is authoritarian.

“As evidenced by the fact that you *censored* don't accept a clear democratic win by his opponent either. You're rejecting a democratic result, just because you don't like it, and allegations of fraud are bull*censored* that you yourselves don't believe in.“

I feel you Aris, but you do not understand conservatives, and you don’t have to.

“As evidenced by the fact that you *censored* don't accept a clear democratic win by his opponent either.”

Due process is not a foreign concept in Greece, is it?

“You're rejecting a democratic result, just because you don't like it, and allegations of fraud are bull*censored* that you yourselves don't believe in.”

Wow, you are strangely invested in America for someone who despises half of its citizens.

“Or maybe it was, and Trump became an illegitimate president because of it.”

Like I said...

“Nah, Republicans tend to be in favour of fewer people of color voting. They claim "security" in order to make people go through hoops before they can vote, in hopes that they won't vote at all.“

When this whole democracy thing started (about the same time as the Sophists) in your neighborhood, was it a good thing, what were the voting requirements, and was political dissent encouraged?

“I mean, you guys have really not made it a secret that you really don't want Puerto Rico becoming a state. Are you gonna claim that has anything to do with security? It has everything to do with preventing Hispanics from voting, as they mostly tend to vote Democrat.“

Would you be in favor of naturalizing Turks on a massive scale?

“ ‘No evidence of fraud’ or ‘No discernible fraud’ if you want to be nitpicky. What if the court decides that?”

If a court decides that, there has been an investigation justifying that conclusion, we accept it within a democracy, human foibles allowed.


“Interesting since I'm not a member of a political party.”

Yes, and Msquared is conservative.

“Didn't seem to stop Trump from being elected the first time.”

Yes, that surprised everybody, including Trump I think.

“Crossfire hurricane resulted in multiple guilty pleas from the Trump camp. One FBI agent pled guilty to one illegal modification of a FISA warrant. Seems like the justice system is working okay.”

That “... one illegal warrant” was renewed three times to perpetuate a farce investigation. And there you have it, your sitting President can conspire (literally) against an opposing parties’ candidate for president, and you are okay with it. Is anyone else on this board signing on to similar treatment of Biden?

”There was a predicate. The tip about Papadopoulos bragging about Russian contacts... “

No, and even Andrew McCabe said that without the Steele “dossier” no FISA warrant would have been issued. As for Papadopoulos;

“The Strzok EC quotes verbatim an email authored by Downer. In it, Downer claims Papadopoulos ‘suggested’ to him that the Trump team had received ‘some kind of suggestion’ of assistance from Russia regarding information damaging to Hillary Clinton and President Obama. In other words, a suggestion of a suggestion.“

“... the Trump tower meeting with Russians, the "Russia if your listening" hack some emails for me, Stone's correspondence with hackers and wikileaks. All of that is predicate for an investigation. Did one guy cross the line on a FISA warrant? Yes. But there was plenty of predicate to look into stuff absent Carter Page.”

Not according to the James Comey, the DOJ Inspector General Horowitz, or FISA Judge Rosemary Collyer. :

I actually liked Trump’s public request for HRC emails from Russia. If our FBI could not deliver, use foreign intelligence.

Do you remember what it it was on Hillary’s illegal bathroom/government server that mortified the DNC? It was John Podesta‘s comment about kissing up to “needy latino’s”.

“That was my opinion of how strong your position is.“

Can I use that line with you in the future?

“You keep attributing things to me that are flat out false.”

Well, you are meeting the “flat out” standard with me.

“That I said recounts never matter, when actually what I said was recounts typically don't change more that a few hundred votes. You say I don't care about voter fraud, when I do. I made a lengthy post about what I would do to make elections more secure and how to detect all the types of fraud you are alleging.”

I remember that post. I have mentioned that I like your position on ballot harvesting. I wish that you could come the rest of the way.

”Here's what I really want you to respond to.
How many fraudulent votes has Trump's team uncovered in 11 days of investigating?”

1,298 investigated, and prosecuted. Cases unprosecuted are absent from the count.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 14, 2020, 08:37:31 PM »

“By definition they are ‘legal’.

So if the Supreme Court determined that the NYT, Washington Post, Huffington Post, New Yorker Slate, Buzzfeed, and Politico must cease publication because they do not serve the public interest (general welfare), that would be, by definition, legal?

"Dred Scott was a travesty of justice and immoral but by definition it was ‘legal.’

By definition, the Dred Scott decision was constitutional, and therefore “legal”. Without passage of the 13th, and 14th amendment to “correct“ (make “good“ law), it would still be legal.

“The SC gets to determine constitutional as well. I tend to treat saying their decisions are constitutional as a tautology.“

I know.

“They can be wrong and future courts get to overrule them but after they decide until they are overruled or an amendment is passed their decisions are constitutional.”

Rather than Dred Scott, lets look at something that would affect you directly; what if the FBI Director decided that your brand of politics was subversive to the interests of the United States, and organized a special detail to monitor your activities, and black mail you into submission. You bring suit in the Federal court system, and the SCOTUS agrees with the FBI. Is it constitutional?

“So now Trump is ‘investigating’.”

No, his legal team is.

“Why's he making all those fraud claims and statements about him winning?“

Because he believes what he is saying.

“Why are there people on the streets of Washington DC chanting 4 more years and stop the steal?”

Because they do not trust your party.

“What Trump is doing is more damaging than anything Crossfire-Hurricane did.“

Wrong, if the State bureaucracy can be enlisted by a political entity to destroy an opponent with impunity, democracy is finished.

“But if Flynn doesn't lie, Trump doesn't panic and fire Comey, Cohen doesn't pay off porn stars in an illegal way, and Stone doesn't lie to congress about communicating with WikiLeaks then Crossfire-Hurricane comes to nothing and none of us probably ever hear of it.“

This is completely unresponsive to my question. Either you really do not understand what happened, or you don’t want to understand. Address the legality of FISA warrants obtained by the Obama FBI to surveil the Trump campaign absent a predicate.

“Stop trying to identify what I want or think unless I tell you directly you're not good at honestly reading and interpreting what others write.“

Did you just tell me that my position on voter fraud investigation was “... just grasping at straws”?


“So if there has to be investigation before you conclude if there's voter fraud or not, why aren't you asking for an ‘investigation’ on all 50 states in every elections?“

Logistics are my only source of hesitation for pushing investigation of all fifty states. The reason that “every election” has not needed the same treatment, is that there has been a qualitative change in what Democrats are willing to do to acquire, and maintain, power. Why do you think it is going to take so long to get Y-22 to concede that subverting FISA by the Obama administration has nothing to do with Stormy Daniels?

“Was there such an investigation in 2016?”


“If not, are you saying that there's a 50% probability that Trump became president in 2016 due to voter fraud?”

I would say that there was a 100% chance of voter fraud. It apparently was not enough. If you follow American politics very closely, you will note that Republicans have always been the primary advocates of voting security. That is where we see our political interests, not voting chaos.

“If not 50%, what probability do you assign to Trump having been elected president in 2016 due to voter fraud?”

Again, there was a 100% chance of fraud, and it is contrary to conservative interests to propagate, or institutionalize it. If Hilary wanted to scrutinize voting security, I would have welcomed it just like I do now.

“Yet somehow it's fine for Trump to determine there's lots and lots of evidence?“

In America, any candidate is entitled to challenge the voting results. Ask Al Gore.

“By this point we've seen the 'evidence' that the Trump campaign had: every informed individual can determine it.”

Not at “this point”, but soon enough.

“And every single court that has seen the so-callled evidence, has rejected the allegations of fraud.”

“Every court“ challenge has not been completed, and even when they are finished there remains the more serious “legal” example, the Democratic bread and butter, ballot harvesting.

“And if the investigation determines there's been no fraud... “

If any court determines there was “no fraud”, I then know that court is full of crap.

“I'm sure you'll say Trump owes Biden & the Democrats an apology for insisting there was. /s”

You would be wrong.


“In our system are you not innocent until proven guilty?“

In our system, the government and its bureaucracy is always subject to audit by the people. They work for us.

“Is the election then not correct until proven corrupt?”

Only if the governed are imbecilic.

“And you need evidence for an investigation? And there is no evidence.”

No, you need suspicion to investigate, which produces evidence if evidence is to be found.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 14, 2020, 05:10:10 PM »

“I think the court is about to embark on an era of poor decisions. Me disagreeing with the SC decisions doesn't make that decision illegal.”

Do you believe that unconstitutional, as contrasted with “bad”, decisions exist? If so, are they legal?

“Your right if voting fraud were that widespread it would be worth pursuing, and prosecuting.“

You are diving into the circular argument again. Investigation is how voter fraud is determined.

“And that could happen with or without Trump conceding.”

It ”could”, but it wouldn’t, and you are the perfect stereotype to make that point. A priori, fraud didn’t happen, correct?

“But there is no evidence voting fraud is that widespread.”

Here we go again; you do not get to determine that.

“Right now you're just grasping at straws to justify Trump behaving like a toddler who just lost a game and is throwing a temper tantrum and saying ‘I won, you cheated. Boohoo’ “

Right now you are pretending clairvoyance. I am unabashedly delighted that this election is being subject to a proctological examination, and if it takes a toddler’s temperament to force the issue, so be it.

“Has Biden or his team been meeting with Chinese and Ukrainian officials on the sly in order to get dirt on Trump? If so, then no I don't really have any problem with Wray heading up an investigation into Biden.”

If he plans to govern, I would hope that he is talking on the “sly” with them. You are probably confused about what actually happened, right?

Are you going to respond to my question regarding Corssfire-Hurricane, specifically FISA abuse?

“Still waiting on Trump to come looking for voter fraud in NC. Wait, what's that, no lawsuits in NC, what is different about NC and all the other close states? Could it be Trump won? And Trump doesn't want there to be any investigation if he won.”

That is the difference between us, I want the fraud uncovered, and terminated.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 14, 2020, 04:08:24 PM »

“The vote totals changed by 667 votes but the margin didn't change by 6,000 votes as you claimed. Same in Pennsylvania, the 83,000 vote margin changed by about 200 votes.”

Fair, I misinterpreted the numbers.
“I agree, and in all three of those cases the original margin of victory was less than 500. Not a great precident when you're trying to make up a 12,000+ vote differential.”

Nonetheless, a rebuttal of your statement. Recounts do matter.

“Illegality that was upheld by the state's supreme court? How is that illegality or corruption.”

As a member of the Party that has relied upon U.S. Supreme Court decisions to overturn State courts since the 1960’s, in reversing legislated law, I am surprised that you would ask.

What will be your position on Supreme Court “legality” when it begins overturning State court decisions in the Amy Coney Bennett era?

”But if you/Trump aren't demonstrating fraud in the 1,000's of votes then he could go ahead and concede... “

No, voting fraud in the 1,000s is worth pursuing, and prosecuting. That would not happen if Trump conceded.

“... free up the intelligence community to meet with Biden, allow the government to release funds to Biden to begin the transition and do all those other things.“

Would you then turn a blind eye to Trump positioning the intelligence community into orchestrating a Crossfire-Hurricane reprise?

“Then you can proceed tracking down all the Trump voters in NC who listened to Trump and voted by mail then again in person and throw the book at them.“

I am a bipartisan “book thrower”.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 14, 2020, 03:24:05 PM »

“cherry, a handful of people collecting votes in a neighborhood is much more environmentally friendly than each person driving to the polling station
  Though less efficient than mailing the ballot.”

Even in California, I have never been further from a polling station than a bike-ride, and normally it was walking distance. How much greener can you get?

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 14, 2020, 02:58:48 PM »
Correction: “North Carolina had three statewide judicial races, since 2006, ending in initial count (differentials) ranging from 3.000 to 6,000, with post-recount (spread) totals revised down to between 17, and 667 votes.“

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 14, 2020, 02:22:17 PM »

“Modern recounts have never changed the final outcome by more than a couple hundred votes. I'm not sure how Trump demanding recounts is evidence of anything.“

North Carolina had three statewide judicial races, since 2006, ending in initial counts ranging from 3.000 to 6,000, with post-recount totals revised down to between 17, and 667 votes. In 2004, a Georgia judicial race which initially tallied a 400 vote differential, ended with a recount margin reduced to 15 votes. Pennsylvania saw the same effect in a 2010 judicial race separated by ~83,000 votes. The post-recount total narrowed the spread to 281 votes. Do you see a pattern? How would you explain it?

Outright change in the election result happened in Washington’s 2004 Governor race, and the 2008 Minnesota Senate race that saddled the nation with the mammary-grabbing clown Al Franken.

Recounts matter.

“No fraud there. I don't see the SC delegitimizing votes states said would be accepted before the election. Also there aren't enough of those to change the outcome in any state.”

Illegality takes more forms than fraud, and you are missing the larger point; conservatives want the corruption exposed, and ended.

“Clearly you do. You haven't shown a single fraudulent ballot yet.”

A “single” fraudulent ballot, or “100”, would be meaningless judging by your own statements. You wanted an election result change volume, and that requires a recount. I want the fraud prosecuted regardless of outcome.

“Doesn't matter what I am complacent with, I fully expect the senate to fully obstruct anyway.“

I am actually referring to more insidious measures employed by Barry. Do you need me to repeat what that third-world emulating community-organizer did?


“Or Trump supporters could do the same thing for their own voters? I mean it is not against the law.“

Are you, at some point, going to give evidence that you are “conservative”? Supposedly Kasich was your man based upon a principled analysis of character. Do you really want Republican’s to begin ballot harvesting?


“It seems like all one would have to do would be to carefully choose what areas to harvest ballots from. Everything else would be perfectly legal but you just don't go to areas where the Demographics favor Trump. Of course you also skip any houses with a Trump sign out front, a 100 Club sticker on the car in the driveway, and so on. Not fraud at all either; a perfectly legal way to steal an election.”

It is merely unethical unless a well-meaning political educator fills out ballot to “help” a voter, or uses pressure of any sort to influence a vulnerable voter’s choice. Then it is fraud, the variety that appears frequently in will modification. Proving undue influence is another matter. It is difficult even in the case of an impaired testator. Imagine trying to prove it in a gated retirement community.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 14, 2020, 05:52:56 AM »

“I'll listen and I'm interested in if you have evidence of any level of voter fraud.”

Good, that is one of the objectives of the Georgia hand-recount, where a .25% vote gap between the candidates yields the type of numbers that you are looking for (~14,000). November 20th is the recount deadline. Wisconsin is also on the path to a recount, with a .6% difference (20,000 votes). Michigan compared their census data with voter registration, and found something that really caught my attention. There are 240,000 more registered voters than there are people over the age of eighteen. Compounded by 234 pages of sworn affidavits alleging voting irregularities in Wayne County, Michigan, the next week should be very interesting to follow. The real fight, in terms of institutional change, will be over the constitutionality of extended voting deadlines in Minnesota, and North Carolina. ACB did not participate in the recent SCOTUS ruling, and the Court will be taking up the issue again.

“I've already posted that I don't like ballot harvesting. And I'll give you 100 fraudulent ballots without evidence.“

That is refreshing. Ballot harvesting is probably the biggest obstacle to election integrity, which is also why Democratic organizations have fought hard to preserve the practice. Legally, it will be a real challenge to eliminate. I don’t need the “100” ballots, but why would you offer them?

Would you be complacent with a Biden presidency being obstructed in the same manner as the Trump presidency was?

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 13, 2020, 10:03:15 AM »

Which is it, “Sure”, or “What I'm looking for is evidence of what Trump and you are claiming (since you think he's going to win now) which is evidence that anywhere near 10,000 votes in a single state could have been tampered with (only by Biden supporters).”?

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 13, 2020, 09:51:17 AM »

“This is a internet forum for discussion, insulting people or discounting their opinions for being Canadian is a jerk move. We're here to discuss ideas. Country of origin doesn't really matter in that context.”

And certainly, any epithets that Donald has issued calling me a “liar”, or “chauvinist”, are at minimum an equally “jerk” move, correct?

I am entitled to refute both. That is not a “jerk” move, it is “discussion of ideas”.

“My point is that all of these are easy to detect even if the perpetrator remains anonymous. Show me police reports where a person called the cops for someone trying to buy their ballot. Show me reports from senior care staff or the families of residents of aggressive ballot harvesters preying on seniors.”

A single incident of all categories will be adequate, correct?

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 13, 2020, 09:33:44 AM »

Your ”point“ is trivially mundane. Every public policy has practical limits.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 13, 2020, 09:17:15 AM »

“Your misplaced chauvenism is showing.“

“Misplaced” in what way? You are the one coming to an American website, discussing American politics, and offering Canadian advice, not the other way around. It seems that you view America as exceptional, and that I do not see Canada in the same way.

Did you not just suggest that proof of identity was vital to legal voting? This is in conformity with, much stricter, Canadian naturalization laws:

”Filing income tax:

You may need to file taxes in Canada for at least 3 years during the 5 years right before the date you apply.

Language skills:

Canada has two official languages: English and French. If you’re 18 to 54 years of age on the day you sign your application, you must show that you can speak and listen at a specific level in one of these languages.

The ways we measure your language skills in English or French include:

- Reviewing the proof you send with your application.
- Noting how well you communicate when you talk to a citizenship official anytime during the process
assessing your language level during a hearing with a citizenship official, if necessary.

To become a citizen, you need to meet the Canadian Language Benchmarks (CLB) Level 4 or higher. This means you can:

- Take part in short, everyday conversations about common topics.
- Understand simple instructions, questions and directions.
- Use basic grammar, including simple structures and tenses.
- Show you know enough common words and phrases to answer questions and express yourself.

If you’re 18 to 54 years of age on the day you sign your application, you need to take the citizenship test. You’ll need to answer questions about the rights and responsibilities of Canadians and Canada’s:

- History
- Geography
- Economy
- Government
- Laws
- Symbols

The test is:

- In English or French
- 30 minutes long
- 20 questions (pass mark: 15 correct answers)
- Multiple-choice and true or false questions.
- Based on the official citizenship study guide: Discover Canada
-Usually written, but may be oral.


-If you committed a crime in or outside Canada you may not be eligible to become a Canadian citizen for a period of time.
- Time spent serving a term of imprisonment, on parole, or on probation doesn’t count as time you’ve lived in Canada.“

“Hint: clearly, security isn't paramount to you. That was my point.“

Note the cultural elitism implied by language requirements. Clearly, in your attempt to be ”clear”, you misunderstand American values. Stay within your political bubble.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 13, 2020, 08:03:47 AM »

“There is no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, changed votes, or was in any way compromised.”

An “E” syllogistic proposition. Let’s see how long that one survives a casual test.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 13, 2020, 07:48:42 AM »

Your Canadian conditioning is showing through. :

“Voting could then be done from anywhere, using a smartphone and a government app, or from a desktop computer, or an acquaintance's phone or computer. Those without access to either could use libraries, or could use polling places as is done today.  Voting kiosks could even be set up at post offices, at ATMs, at banks, etc.”

The Act’s criteria provided that: ”All (American) citizens, with or without a disability, should be assured they are able to vote privately, securely, and independently“

Orwellian exercises in population control are not an American value priority.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 13, 2020, 06:55:47 AM »

“Same argument. If the overseas citizens can do that safely, why can't somebody 3000 yards from their voting location do the same?”

If that us the extent of partisan compromise that would ensure both security through “Voting assistance... provided more extensively to... (voting) facilities. (And) State and local election officials (would) develop uniform statewide procedures for providing assistance in... community-based facilities for voter registration and absentee voting. (And) Election officials (would) prepare and conduct training for (poll) staff and volunteers who are designated to provide voter assistance.”, and accessibility, I would sign on.

But notice that under the Act you still have to physically drag your body to a State designated assisted voting facility, which in common language is called a “polling station“. I am not sure how even accommodations currently in place for disabled veterans makes casting a mail-in ballot easy enough for your vision of an average voter.

What this could not evolve into, and still maintain the VA voter assistance criteria, is an independent vote-harvesting contractor model, with a political “education“ agenda.

Does that satisfy your needs for convenience?

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 13, 2020, 12:09:21 AM »

Consider the following:

“Election officials can better serve these voters if they understand the barriers to voting faced by veterans with disabilities and the opportunities that exist to make the electoral process more accessible. All citizens, with or without a disability, should be assured they are able to vote privately, securely, and independently

“The Uniformed and Overseas Citizens Absentee Voting Act (UOCAVA) of 1986 requires states to allow active duty service members to vote by absentee ballot in federal elections, and the Military and Overseas Voter Empowerment (MOVE) Act of 2009 requires states to support military voters with electronic systems to obtain voter registration and absentee ballot request forms and have their absentee ballots delivered“

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 12, 2020, 11:54:41 PM »
Disabled veterans, as in blind, para, or quadriplegic, correct? Any others?

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 12, 2020, 11:35:06 PM »

Adult citizens usually work. It seems that every artificial limitation which you have placed on voting, would also be an obstacle to employment. Do you see any flaw in that analogy?

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 12, 2020, 10:58:01 PM »
Give it a try, I am patient.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 12, 2020, 10:41:12 PM »

“Like most of your ilk, you dismiss every concern about access by stating openly that anyone who won't do it like they did it in the 1950s is not an adult.”

Why is my statement wrong?

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 12, 2020, 10:20:58 PM »

“A bipartisan effort has to address both of those things, but it will never happen because each party only sees one side of the issue.”

If these two aspects of voting are really exclusive of each other, then you are effectively arguing against democracy. Is that your position?

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 12, 2020, 10:11:35 PM »

“You realize that the only reason there's a lack of confidence in the vote is because the GOP has spent the last decade screaming about voter fraud without any evidence that it's a significant problem?“

It is Republican confidence that you want to avoid Republican opposition.

“Yet your proposal says nothing of getting the GOP to stop making voting a partisan issue.”

Okay, I will say something; make the proposal bipartisan.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 12, 2020, 09:54:36 PM »

“Voter fraud opportunities are
1) Register fake people to vote (states have ways to identify and weed these out).”

I have never heard of this.

“2) Register real people to vote and pretend to be them. (Hope they decide not to register and vote themselves)“

The average turnout in a general election, from total eligible voters, is ~60%. On a random basis your hypothetical seems to be a really good way for the perpetrator to get arrested provided the ballot is presented in person at a polling station. In a mail-in scenario, or unmonitored drop-box, there is little risk.

“3) Some kind of vote or ballot buying with mail in votes. (Hard to keep a large scale op secret)“

Risk is correlated to some degree with the target population, and disclosure of the purchaser’s identification. It is illegal to sell a ballot, as well as buy one, so there is some inherent protection. When compounded by buyer discretion in remaining anonymous to the seller, actual risk is near zero.

“4) Harvesting ballots and dumping all the ones from people who you think didn't vote for your guy.”

Harvesting that targets populations in need of political “education”, ie.; retirement homes, psychologically institutionalized patients, government housing projects, or just going door to door in low income housing tracts, would pretty much raise the typical 60% “eligible“ voter participation to upwards of 90%+, depending upon persistence of the farmer. Not surprisingly, assisted voting normally conforms to “educational” directives. Undue influence negates any need for hypothetical ballot sorting.

“1, 2 can be detected by taking a 1,000 randomly selected voters in the region you think fraud occurred in and go ask all of them if they voted.”

I doubt #1 occurs at all, and #2 is ineffectual in picking up the margins of victory in contemporary elections.

3 gets busted by some idiot posting on facebook that he just got $20 for voting for x. Or by an honest person calling the cops on someone trying to give them money for their vote.

Only if #3 provided identification along with the cash.

4 is detected by individual voters checking the status of their mail in ballots. When a lot of people say I gave my ballot to Dr. Evil and it never was turned in an investigation can ensue.

No, ballot harvesting does not work that way.

Recent posts in this thread have despaired the imminent demise of democracy, and even incitement of civil violence. If there is serious interest in restoring the public trust, stop screwing with the vote. That is the genuine and immediate threat to our democracy.

The two parties functioned in a reasonable state of cooperative opposition for approximately 128 years (until the Clinton administration). To begin a return to the age of “loyal opposition”, eliminate all of the electioneering gamesmanship encompassed above, and restore the secret, in-person vote from rolls that are purged every election cycle, as a default mode, with restrictive conditions on absentee ballots. Without confidence in the worth of a vote, democracy is an empty concept.

Civil comity would also be greatly aided if Democrats recognized that their party’s efforts at post-election nullification, of Trump’s presidency, are equally effective in provoking Republican animosity, as is outright voting fraud. For example; within this thread it was asserted that the Obama FBI was justified in misusing FISA authority as a precursor to spying on the Trump campaign, transition team, and governing administration, allegedly because Carter Page, a minor foreign policy campaign advisor, could not restrain himself from talking to “CCP“ operatives. It was not enough to demolish that inane proposition. The discussion ended with an even more absurd hypothesis, to wit; Mr. Page was a CIA mole sent to spy on not just any U.S. citizen, but his boss, in violation of Executive Order 12333 of 1981, and in accordance with procedures approved by the Attorney General.

Would the Lefties on this site be better able to appreciate the harm done to America if, should he be installed as President, Joe Biden had the same welcome to office?

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 12, 2020, 10:44:01 AM »

“Could that be the game plan?”

Trumps game plan is to win, win legally, but win. I was counting him out until yesterday. I also counted him out in 2016. He has a habit of proving me wrong.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 11, 2020, 10:39:47 PM »

“Being a 'confidential source' doesn't mean he is exempt from being investigated or prosecuted for engaging in illegal activity.”

True enough; but when the CIA told Clinesmith, in the context of a FISA warrant application inquiry, that Page was working for them, one would think that their clear statement would carry some weight. Clinesmith obviously believed that it did, because he subsequently falsified the CIA email, and obtained a counter-intelligence investigation warrant based upon a piece of fabricated evidence.

Come on guys, stop with the BHO Pom-poms.

“Claims of him being a confidential source are irrelevant unless he was specifically tasked with the illegal behaviour he appeared to be engaged in.“

So, the CIA could not figure that out, and you just did?


“Was Page a current informant? Or did his relationship with the CIA end in 2013 when he was involved in a criminal case (as source? witness? double agent?) with two Russian spies.”

The 2016 CIA email identified Page as “working” for them (present tense). Page had informed the FBI as far back as June 13, 2013 that he was in contact with Victor Podobnyy, whom he believed to be a junior attaché at the Russian consulate in New York, and was advising on energy investments.

“Or was Page spying on the Trump campaign for the CIA? I'm sure Obama is to blame either way.“

See, this is why I have full confidence in the Left’s capacity for expansive election fraud. There is a rabid devotion to ideological expediency that no fact-set will overcome.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 11, 2020, 09:36:33 PM »

“As you ought to well know, surveillance started with Carter Page. He met with Russian officials during the campaign.”

Dr. Carter Page, Annapolis graduate, ex-naval officer, Eagle Scout, altar boy, and generally upstanding American, is the last person that you should want to accuse.

“There was never evidence gathered to show that he was working for them, but that surveillance never starts if he never met with them. That's why you do the surveillance, to determine the nature of the relationship.”

Page was a confidential CIA source, as he stated to the FBI official in charge of FISA applications, Kevin Clinesmith. Clinesmith was subsequently instructed to ask the CIA again about Page’s relationship with the agency. He was again informed by email that Page was, in fact, working for them; yet Clinesmith changed the CIA email response to describe Page as ”not working” for it. Clinesmith was then criminally referred by Justice Department Inspector Horowitz for falsifying evidence in a FISA application, and charged in the course of John Durham’s criminal probe. Clinesmith plead guilty.

I should add that investigators also found numerous messages against Trump on Clinesmith’s social media accounts, including one declaring "vive le resistance” after Trump won.  Stories like this can’t be made up.

Just another day in the Obama FBI.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 11, 2020, 07:23:28 PM »

“The Biden campaign and transition team probably won't be stupid enough to take random meetings with people closely associated with the CCP.“

Are you just confused? Joseph Mifsud is a Maltese academic, and Comey entrapment bait, with no connections to the CCP. Papadopoulos was a small player exploited under FISA to expand FBI surveillance requests. Or are you talking about General Flynn, who was fully entitled to talk with Sergey I. Kislyak, about U.S. sanctions on Russia, or any other foreign counterpart that he deemed appropriate.

“However, if you think Trump ISN'T trying to use the national security apparatus to spy on people he believes are stealing the election from him, people who are owned by China and the Ukraine, people who are bent on the destruction of America itself? Well, you're giving him more credit than he deserves.”

Trump is a blunt-force instrument. If he wants an indictment, or investigation, he just goes to Twitter. The sneaky maneuvering characteristic of a “community organizer” mentality is as alien to Donald, as a real job is to Barry.

“Would the professionals in those organizations go along with it? More than likely. I'll patiently wait until we find out that happened and you find some way to excuse it.“

Your “patience” will be severely tried. Pretty much everything Trump does politically makes headlines within five minutes of his decision. Take, for example, his move to fire four civilian appointees at the Pentagon yesterday. To read CNN’s account, one would think that he had decapitated our defense capacity.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 11, 2020, 06:03:54 PM »

“We can have a peaceful transition of power and Biden will be the duly elected President. There is no need for Trump to concede anything. And again, the Democrats never did. On the contrary, they impeached him for his "crime" of winning the election.”

It was actually much worse than that. Unlike Trump, Barry corrupted the nation’s intelligence apparatus. Biden did/will not have to contend with pre-election, transitional, or post-inaugural spying on his organization. Nor will Biden be seeing an unsubstantiated “dossier” funded by the RNC, compiled by a foreign agent, employed as a predicate for a faux counter intelligence operation, and culminated in a sham impeachment.

Retaining the House will immunize him from “impeachment”, but not from the discredit attached to documentation disclosed by his “family business associates”. As for his call for cross-party/national unification and reconciliation; hear this Uncle Joe, WE ARE THE RESISTANCE.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 11, 2020, 05:17:26 PM »

“... ah, but it wouldn't be unbalanced at all if we did the sandwich configuration, 7, 7, 6, 6, 6, 6, 7, 7.”

Just ugly.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 11, 2020, 05:07:24 PM »

I considered the 4*7/6 configuration, but it still is jarringly unbalanced:

If D,C., and Puerto Rico want to play, we need one or two more states to make it work.

General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: November 11, 2020, 03:44:30 PM »

“I remember hearing the same stuff during the Kavanaugh hearings. I'll say the same thing now that I did then. Infiltrate the dealers, find the suppliers."

That is reasonably descriptive of what Trump is doing now. He is entitled to have his objections investigated, and litigated, just as Kavanaugh’s detractor had her public hearing.

“You're on a deadline. Results have to be certified and electors have to meet and the country has to move forward.”

I see no indication of foot-dragging by investigators.

“The vast majority of Americans believe that Biden won.  Every day that L'Orange Crotte doesn't concede burns down a little bit more of the Republican party.”

So, preservation of the Republican Party is your overriding concern? Interesting. I dare say that you are a minority within the party that you worry about. This election, and its aftermath, leave conservatives very well positioned for January 2021, November 2022, and November 2024. The intra-party fracturing, of which you are apparently representative, is so small as to be inconsequential.

We will hold the Senate, have gained seats in the House. Biden will not get the cabinet that he wants, nor will the “Green New Deal” see the light of day. The Supreme Court will not be packed, and only fifty stars will remain on Old Glory. Symmetrically rearranging fifty-two stars on a blue field, now there is a potential for national crisis.

Finally, election law has the best chance for overhaul now than at in any time in my memory as a result of COVID abuses. Issues such as.:

- Who decides election deadlines generally, or as we are now confronted with the issue in Pennsylvania, can the State Supreme Court usurp the constitutionally empowered legislature‘s authority in this matter?

- Do individual votes need threshold validation of voter identity?

- Is the State under obligation to issue properly vetted/requested ballots?

- Does ballot submission require safeguards curtailing undue influence?

“So far the lawsuits have been going nowhere. There has been no evidence presented to any judge to back up any allegations.  Nothing.  You can't run up to a judge and say ‘stop the count, they're cheating’,”

You can say: stop the count, a State Court has violated its constitution. The SCOTUS agreed to review the matter after the election. I think that decision was a mistake, but nothing stands in the way at this stage.

“... and when the judge asks you ‘what makes you say that?’, your reply is ‘we need to investigate further’. That dog won't hunt.“

“Infiltrate the dealers, find the suppliers.”

”Speaking of which.  Did Stacy Abrams ever concede the Georgia governor's race?” 

No, she expressly refused to concede, however; she did state that the “law allows no further viable remedy”. Trump is not there yet, and time remains for allowing the process to play out, irrespective of my expectations.

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