Author Topic: Now you've done it  (Read 37368 times)

TheDrake

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2021, 03:03:36 PM »
Quote
Congressional lawmakers have been informed of a plot to surround the Capitol with 4,000 armed pro-Donald Trump extremists.

Rep. Conor Lamb, D-Pa., made the disclosure in a Tuesday interview on CNN’s "New Day." The show posted a video of the interview on its Twitter account. He said the lawmakers were told of the specific threat, as well as others, in a briefing late Monday.

"They were talking about 4,000 armed 'patriots' to surround the Capitol and prevent any Democrat from going in," Lamb  said. "They have published rules of engagement, meaning when you shoot and when you don't. So this is an organized group that has a plan.

“They are committed to doing what they're doing because I think in their minds, you know, they are patriots and they're talking about 1776 and so this is now a contest of wills.

newsmax

Pretty much every commenter says the Democrats are lying, or the capitol police are lying, or the FBI is lying. That patriots don't use violence, even though they are constantly talking up a revolution or civil war.

DonaldD

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2021, 03:59:13 PM »
Trump supporters attacked and occupied the Capitol in order to stop the certification fo EC votes (a step along the way to a transition of power).

They have been threatening not just Democratic party politicians, but insufficiently loyal Republicans, as well as bureaucrats just doing their jobs, but not in such a way as to benefit the president's re-election.

They have plans to attack all 50 state houses.

They have plans to once again attack the Capitol.

At what point do people admit that yes, there is a serious problem with domestic terrorists attacking the country in support of Donald Trump?

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2021, 04:05:01 PM »
Quote
Congressional lawmakers have been informed of a plot to surround the Capitol with 4,000 armed pro-Donald Trump extremists.

Rep. Conor Lamb, D-Pa., made the disclosure in a Tuesday interview on CNN’s "New Day." The show posted a video of the interview on its Twitter account. He said the lawmakers were told of the specific threat, as well as others, in a briefing late Monday.

"They were talking about 4,000 armed 'patriots' to surround the Capitol and prevent any Democrat from going in," Lamb  said. "They have published rules of engagement, meaning when you shoot and when you don't. So this is an organized group that has a plan.

“They are committed to doing what they're doing because I think in their minds, you know, they are patriots and they're talking about 1776 and so this is now a contest of wills.

newsmax

Pretty much every commenter says the Democrats are lying, or the capitol police are lying, or the FBI is lying. That patriots don't use violence, even though they are constantly talking up a revolution or civil war.

Depends on the "patriots" in question. Extremist groups have never been above the use of force.

Right-wing groups(not the extremist ones) showing up with firearms at a protest or even rally is old hat by now, as "protecting/demonstrating 2nd Amendment rights" has been a thing for a long time now. The current sub-text is ominous, but remove that from consideration and this something that has been done in most of those venues many times before.

Washington DC would be new though.

DonaldD

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2021, 04:12:41 PM »
But how many people are actually doing this kind of threatening? The question is not just rhetorical, I would be legitimately interested to know whether it's just the same old unhinged crowd (be they D or R) finding targets for their madness, or whether what we might call 'normal people' have taken to this type of speech.

The Capitol has never before been breached in this way (unless you are counting the war of 1812) so even if it's impossible to say whether more people are unhinged, clearly, more people are physically attacking the government than ever before.  And more people are absolutely threatening their political opponents than ever before.  But let's not both-sides this: Republicans are not currently complaining about getting death threats for not supporting impeachment, and neither are Democrats.  But people on all sides of the political divide, including election officials and judges put in place by Republicans , are getting threatened by Trump's minions for not supporting his deranged attempts at overthrowing the election results.

Are there some on the left threatening political opponents?  Of course there are - the internet is a disgusting swamp of billions of people with little to no self-control.  But let's not pretend what we are seeing from Trump supporters is in any way a trivial subset of outliers.

TheDrake

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2021, 04:23:10 PM »
Remember when Kathy Griffin was roundly and deservedly criticized for her Trump beheading photo?

Where are all the people who complained about that, but have nothing to say about the "Hang Mike Pence" gallows erected at the capitol?


yossarian22c

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2021, 05:40:58 PM »
MCConnell. Impeachment.  Wow.

Now they've done it.

Wonder if McConnell can sell this to enough of the rational part of the party to get 17 votes to convict him. Also there are a couple presidential 2024 contenders who he may be able to get to vote to convict in order to clear Trump from the Republican 2024 field. Trump would have enough support in the R base to ruin other's chances at winning a primary but would probably lose another general. McConnel is a long game player, piss off the base now but remove Trump from the electoral playing field for the good of the party and hope to rally them again in 2 or 4 years.

rightleft22

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2021, 06:01:45 PM »
Why the Trump followers are so loyal to him I don't understand, especially as is  everyone associated with him eventually gets thrown under the bus.
Its gone beyond policy into something that isn't politics.

I don't get it... but it reminds me of other movements in history

DonaldD

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2021, 06:10:08 PM »
Michael Sherwin, Acting U.S. Attorney, District of Columbia:

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But what the public isn't familiar with is that the FBI, working with the US attorneys' offices across the country - and the crux of those being in DC - we're looking at significant felony cases tied to sedition and conspiracy. Just yesterday, our office organized a strike force of very senior national security prosecutors and public corruption prosecutors; their only marching orders from me are to build seditious and conspiracy charges related to the most heinous acts that occurred in the Capitol.  And these are significant charges that have… felonies with prison terms of up to 20 years.

msquared

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #59 on: January 12, 2021, 06:37:03 PM »
I want to see the list of Antifa/BLM people that were undercover and led the Trumpite astray.  Wm said the FBI had lists of bus loads.  It should be easy to track down.

DonaldD

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #60 on: January 12, 2021, 08:01:47 PM »
And for the record, I never heard any of the right-wing people on my social media calling for violence, but regularly (and I mean multiple times a day) heard calls for violence by liberal people, whether in the form of "punch a Nazi", or "I want go to kick the crap out of Republicans right now"

Huh.  Mo Brooks, Republican Congressman, to the mob that a couple of hours later attacked the Capitol:

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Today is the day American patriots start taking down names and kicking ass!"  Our ancestors sacrificed their blood, their sweat, their tears, their fortunes and sometimes their lives... Are you willing to do the same?

Granted, he's just a congress person, so is basically fringe and almost not even a Republican...

Fenring

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #61 on: January 12, 2021, 08:16:52 PM »
The Capitol has never before been breached in this way (unless you are counting the war of 1812) so even if it's impossible to say whether more people are unhinged, clearly, more people are physically attacking the government than ever before.  And more people are absolutely threatening their political opponents than ever before.  But let's not both-sides this: Republicans are not currently complaining about getting death threats for not supporting impeachment, and neither are Democrats.  But people on all sides of the political divide, including election officials and judges put in place by Republicans , are getting threatened by Trump's minions for not supporting his deranged attempts at overthrowing the election results.

You're a bit hung up on it being the first time this precise action has taken place. You could also say BLM occupying part of a city and declaring it a new sovereign territory was the 'first time' that happened (I don't actually know if that's the case, but it's just an example of what I mean). Well so what? So what if something is a brand new action or a repeat of something crazy done before, I'm not sure what that means. Do you mean by that to say that it's a sign of definite escalation? If that's all you mean then I would agree. But then I would ask you right back whether you would agree that the BLM riots and occupying also constituted a new kind of escalation from what America is used to. If you agree to that proposition, then I would propose further than once the violent overthrow of established systems begins escalating on one side it's going to escalate on the other side too. Yeah, yeah, I know, you can use the whataboutism or both-sidism response. That's sort of a catchall, I feel, which eliminates any possibility to put things in their proper context. Even if we agree fully that the Trump supporters have gone to new depths, it doesn't contradict that premise to also admit that they got the cue from the BLM example set for them by their opponents. And I personally have little doubt that the one is at minimum related to the other. For the record I don't think either were good, and again for the record, we can note that no one on either side has been jumping at the chance to denounce the actions taken from those on 'their side'. Liberals here or on my social media (they are more conscientious here) at minimum wouldn't denounce BLM occupying a city, and at times I heard many people outright rallying to the cause. With the Trumpists no one here is rallying to them, but likewise they are carefully avoiding denouncing it. I see a trend here, and if any amicable agreement is to be found I think the double standard is really going to have to go.

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Huh.  Mo Brooks, Republican Congressman, to the mob that a couple of hours later attacked the Capitol:

Quote
Today is the day American patriots start taking down names and kicking ass!"  Our ancestors sacrificed their blood, their sweat, their tears, their fortunes and sometimes their lives... Are you willing to do the same?

Granted, he's just a congress person, so is basically fringe and almost not even a Republican...

Actually this seems to agree with what I said before, that the case for now seems to be that there's an asymmetrical equivalence (if any) between the BLM situation and the Trumpist situation, in that in the case of BLM no one high-up was obviously instigating it, but rather all the calls came from down-low. Whereas in the Trumpist case it seems that maybe it's more a response to high-up calls to action. In both cases people are flocking to an aggressive notion, but not necessarily from the same source.

DonaldD

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #62 on: January 12, 2021, 08:38:10 PM »
The first time that the Capitol has been attacked in order to interrupt the transition of power, and in order to pressure Congress to overrule the will of the electorate... yeah, that you don't think that is significant is more than a little odd.

As for BLM giving cover for angry White counter protests - I agree, I absolutely believe that to be the case.  Of course, much of the response is predicated on a misrepresentation of the BLM protests and a demonization of the BLM movement, where the incidental violence was obsessively reported upon in the right wing media to the exclusion of the substance of the protests. 




Fenring

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #63 on: January 12, 2021, 09:48:37 PM »
As for BLM giving cover for angry White counter protests - I agree, I absolutely believe that to be the case.

Give more credit than that, at minimum to the conservatives here. The response here to the BLM, a la "what the hell is going on in our country" sounds similar to my ear to the response in the capital. I'm not really trying to compare them quantitatively, as one is more shocking while the other was (so far) much more prolonged. But "cover" makes it sound like conservatives use the BLM as a feeble excuse, which I'm sure you're aware is not really how they felt about the BLM actions. What I am saying is the riots were a definitive escalation in the trench warfare. That doesn't excuse further escalations, but it does explain them.

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #64 on: January 12, 2021, 09:55:09 PM »
The Capitol has never before been breached in this way (unless you are counting the war of 1812) so even if it's impossible to say whether more people are unhinged, clearly, more people are physically attacking the government than ever before.  And more people are absolutely threatening their political opponents than ever before.  But let's not both-sides this: Republicans are not currently complaining about getting death threats for not supporting impeachment, and neither are Democrats.  But people on all sides of the political divide, including election officials and judges put in place by Republicans , are getting threatened by Trump's minions for not supporting his deranged attempts at overthrowing the election results.

You're a bit hung up on it being the first time this precise action has taken place. You could also say BLM occupying part of a city and declaring it a new sovereign territory was the 'first time' that happened (I don't actually know if that's the case, but it's just an example of what I mean). Well so what? So what if something is a brand new action or a repeat of something crazy done before, I'm not sure what that means. Do you mean by that to say that it's a sign of definite escalation? If that's all you mean then I would agree. But then I would ask you right back whether you would agree that the BLM riots and occupying also constituted a new kind of escalation from what America is used to. If you agree to that proposition, then I would propose further than once the violent overthrow of established systems begins escalating on one side it's going to escalate on the other side too. Yeah, yeah, I know, you can use the whataboutism or both-sidism response. That's sort of a catchall, I feel, which eliminates any possibility to put things in their proper context. Even if we agree fully that the Trump supporters have gone to new depths, it doesn't contradict that premise to also admit that they got the cue from the BLM example set for them by their opponents. And I personally have little doubt that the one is at minimum related to the other. For the record I don't think either were good, and again for the record, we can note that no one on either side has been jumping at the chance to denounce the actions taken from those on 'their side'. Liberals here or on my social media (they are more conscientious here) at minimum wouldn't denounce BLM occupying a city, and at times I heard many people outright rallying to the cause. With the Trumpists no one here is rallying to them, but likewise they are carefully avoiding denouncing it. I see a trend here, and if any amicable agreement is to be found I think the double standard is really going to have to go.

I've called it stupid, misguided, and a lot of other pejoratives? But I'm also remembering that there is this thing called "civil disobedience" which obviously many of them "crossed the line" on, but many is not most. Much like "we" were getting called out for denouncing the rioters at BLM protests, as some on here wanted to read "rioters" as "protesters" in general. They need to bear in mind that not everyone who found themselves wandering around on Capital Hill did anything to warrant outright denouncement, much like those "useful idiots" I kept complaining about at the Portland riots where peaceful protesters would simply stand around in the street and watch as the rioters went about doing "their thing" at the Federal Buildings there.

The people who went there with malicious intent need to be caught, and they need to have the book thrown at them. (I've also pretty much said the same before) But as we're in a nation of laws and you can't draft and enforce laws after the fact, "new legislation" isn't going to make what happened un-happen, it isn't going to bring anyone back from the dead, or heal the injuries of others by some miraculous means. But new "targeted legislation" has all kinds of ways that it can go very badly wrong, especially when it is being pushed by people who seem to more fixated on scoring political points against their political enemies rather than trying to restore sanity to government.

But to get back to where I started and why outright denouncement isn't happening: There is a place for peaceful civil disobedience, and that can mean trespass, but those people better be ready for jail time. I can respect people who do that and don't whine when they get charged.

Which is why there is some nuance to be had here: Some of the people who went into Capital Hill last week weren't destroying things. They weren't there to threaten people, they did go with intent to protest and part of that objective likely included getting arrested/charged for doing non-violent and non-destructive things. It just turned out that not everyone they were with had the same intentions.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 09:57:15 PM by TheDeamon »

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #65 on: January 12, 2021, 09:59:57 PM »
Also today:
https://twitter.com/policy/status/1349059275461685250
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Ahead of the Ugandan election, we're hearing reports that Internet service providers are being ordered to block social media and messaging apps.
 
We strongly condemn internet shutdowns – they are hugely harmful, violate basic human rights and the principles of the #OpenInternet.

So nice to see Twitter taking a strong stance against censorship and support of an open internet. Oh wait, that's only the case for Uganda, never mind.

Aris Katsaris

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #66 on: January 12, 2021, 10:14:33 PM »
Because preventing one person from using Twitter, is *exactly* the same as preventing the entire population of a country from using it. /s

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #67 on: January 12, 2021, 10:29:00 PM »
Because preventing one person from using Twitter, is *exactly* the same as preventing the entire population of a country from using it. /s

And Google, Apple, and Amazon joining forces to shut down Parler protects democracy how?

It isn't just Trump that is getting stomped on right now. Heck, Facebook froze Ron Paul's Facebook page. Because he is such a threat to the Democratic processes of the United States?

https://www.newsweek.com/ron-paul-blocked-accessing-facebook-page-over-violating-community-standards-1560639

LetterRip

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #68 on: January 12, 2021, 11:43:13 PM »
Ron Paul wasn't blocked one of his account administrators was.  So the particular administrator couldn't post on the account.

Aris Katsaris

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #69 on: January 13, 2021, 04:44:16 AM »
And Google, Apple, and Amazon joining forces to shut down Parler protects democracy how?

I never said it did, but I'm thinking they're doing it to protect not democracy but lives, from the terrorist mass murders Trump cultists have been planning on the platform in question. I've not studied the issue enough to decide whether Parler itself as a platform was actually to blame, and I'm undecided on whether banning it was a good course of action.

But is the question whether it protects democracy, or is the issue whether the tech companies have a right to make that decision? Because I kinda remember that Trump wanted the abolition of Section 230, exactly so that Twitter would be shut down because they'd then be liable for anything their users posted, and no online platform can survive that.

So it's a bit ironic that the Trumpists are complaining for Big Tech acting voluntarily the way Trump would have mandated them by law to act.

yossarian22c

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #70 on: January 13, 2021, 09:18:22 AM »
And Google, Apple, and Amazon joining forces to shut down Parler protects democracy how?

I never said it did, but I'm thinking they're doing it to protect not democracy but lives, from the terrorist mass murders Trump cultists have been planning on the platform in question. I've not studied the issue enough to decide whether Parler itself as a platform was actually to blame, and I'm undecided on whether banning it was a good course of action.

Parler branded itself as a right leaning free speech platform with no moderation. Complete lack of moderation will lead to some very large, nasty, dark groups using the platform. Most of parler's users probably weren't using it to organize violence. But they don't moderate content so it was being used for that and continuing to spread lies about the election being stolen. At the end of the day Parler left the big tech companies with the option to be complicit in the spreading of lies and propaganda that people are using to try to start a new civil war or to take down the app. They chose the latter.

yossarian22c

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #71 on: January 13, 2021, 09:26:29 AM »
The Republican talking point of "to heal the country you have to ignore the president's actions" pisses me off. If Trump was out on hands and knees begging for forgiveness, telling the truth about all the lies he spread over the last months and years, then there would be a conversation to be had. But he's unrepentant. He needs to be held accountable.

msquared

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #72 on: January 13, 2021, 09:35:29 AM »
As I said earlier we can talk about moving on but since Trump is the cause of 95% of this, I think it would be incumbent on him to make the first move. Admit he lied about the election and that there was no wide spread voter fraud. That he lost the election fair and square. Then we can talk about moving on.

But that would take Trump admitting that he lied, which he will never do, and putting the country ahead of his own self interest, which he will never do.

LetterRip

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #73 on: January 13, 2021, 09:54:13 AM »
It is wrong to say that Parler didn't moderate - anything liberal was blocked.  What they did was ignore violent and seditious content.  So it wasn't a hands off in general stance  it was an editorial decision to promote some things and suppress others.

TheDrake

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #74 on: January 13, 2021, 11:31:53 AM »
Quote
The company said it has taken steps to "ensure hate group members are not part of the Airbnb community" — banning "numerous individuals" from using its platform if Airbnb has learned they "are either associated with known hate groups or otherwise involved in the criminal activity at the Capitol Building."

Uh oh, guess you didn't realize you'd get banned from airbnb. I hope your name isn't found in the parler trove firing off hate messages and death threats.

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #75 on: January 13, 2021, 12:00:03 PM »
Parler branded itself as a right leaning free speech platform with no moderation. Complete lack of moderation will lead to some very large, nasty, dark groups using the platform. Most of parler's users probably weren't using it to organize violence. But they don't moderate content so it was being used for that and continuing to spread lies about the election being stolen. At the end of the day Parler left the big tech companies with the option to be complicit in the spreading of lies and propaganda that people are using to try to start a new civil war or to take down the app. They chose the latter.

Parler did still have a line, and they would moderate content(death threats being the main thing).

As per their court filing, their Contract with Amazon explicitly stated they had 30 days to correct any issues Amazon brought forward before termination of services could happen.

On January 7th, Amazon brought forward complaints, Parler resolved them, Amazon (via e-mail) indicated all outstanding issues had been resolved. On January 8th, Amazon brought forward ne complaints(new 30 day timer), Parler resolved them, Amazon again indicated all outstanding issues had been resolved. But on the same day(January 8th), Parler surpassed Twitter on the Google and Apple App stores.

On January 9th, Parler is now the top download on Google and Apple App Stores. Google and Apple ban Parler from their platform. Amazon then leaks a copy of the e-mail notifying Parler that their services are being terminated to the media which is then published an hour before they send the notice to Parler.

Edit: Oh yeah, Amazon's basis for terminating service? "Lack of confidence in Parler's ability to resolve issues in a timely manner" never mind that they were indicating that they were perfectly happy with Parler just the day before.

Oh and the violations they were citing Parler for "inadequate response" on? The exact same content was present on Twitter, and had been online for just as long, if not longer. Yet Twitter remains online.

LetterRip

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #76 on: January 13, 2021, 12:19:35 PM »
Parler was suspended not terminated.  Also the AWS contract allowed immediate termination under certain circumstances.


TheDrake

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #77 on: January 13, 2021, 01:07:05 PM »
Parler shouldn't be concerned. The Russian government will probably host their backend for free.

Aris Katsaris

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #78 on: January 13, 2021, 01:10:01 PM »
So, TheDeamon, your argument is that Amazon violated its contract with Parler? Okay, Parler can take the issue to the courts then.

Now perhaps we should focus instead on the coup Donald Trump attempted, rather than whether one company possibly violated its contract with another.

DonaldD

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #79 on: January 13, 2021, 01:18:19 PM »
Representative Jason Crow:

Quote
I  think we have to be honest about what it is we are actually dealing with here; first of all, there's a number of things that are happening on the Republican side.  A very small handful, I think, are morally bankrupt individuals who have given in to these conspiracy theories and are too far gone to be redeemed.  But the majority of them are actually paralyzed with fear.  I had a lot of conversations with my Republican colleagues last night and a couple of them broke down in tears… talking to me and saying that they are afraid for their lives if they vote for this impeachment. My response was, and not to be unsympathetic but, "Welcome to the club".

According to one Congress person, a significant portion of a major political party's representatives in the House, a party making up almost half of the chamber's membership, has been terrorized into questioning their votes on a matter of sedition.

Read that again if you need to.

Aris Katsaris

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #80 on: January 13, 2021, 01:40:14 PM »
See, Trump totally not a fascist.

But if the people vote him out, the elections must have been rigged.

But if you don't violate the constitution for his benefit, you're a traitor to the nation.

But if any elected representatives vote to impeach him, they ought fear for their lives.

Trump totally not a fascist.

Fenring

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #81 on: January 13, 2021, 02:35:15 PM »
I'm not as informed about the minutiae going on as I could be, but Aris, are you trying to imply that it is Trump and his fascistic ways that are directly causing the Congresspeople to fear for their lives? I realize that there is room to argue indirect causation, for instance people doing and saying things he didn't tell them to but which he also isn't doing anything to stop. But you are making it out like he's Emperor Palpatine trying to take over the Congress through fear and threats.

Is it the consensus among liberals here that this is in fact what he's trying to do? Or is there room in the narrative that his goal was to rile everyone up and where they went with that is more on them?

Or rather, imagine looking at this from an international lens, like as if you were Finnish and watching reporting on American current events. A lot of the rhetoric here on Ornery is "Trump is a madman", but I suspect a lot of the sentiment elsewhere might just be "Americans are madmen."

oldbrian

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #82 on: January 13, 2021, 02:36:46 PM »
TheDeamon:
Quote
They need to bear in mind that not everyone who found themselves wandering around on Capital Hill did anything to warrant outright denouncement, much like those "useful idiots" I kept complaining about at the Portland riots where peaceful protesters would simply stand around in the street and watch as the rioters went about doing "their thing" at the Federal Buildings there.

I might be misremembering, but you were not so much 'complaining about' as 'advocating beating the hell out of' the useful idiots.  Or was that a different poster? 
Something about if you are in the same general area, and wearing the same clothing, then you should not be complaining if the police beat your ass 4 hours later on your way home.  Because wearing the 'uniform' of the people throwing rocks and Molotov cocktails at the Federal building is equal to declaring allegiance with them.

oldbrian

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #83 on: January 13, 2021, 02:41:17 PM »
Fenring:
Quote
Is it the consensus among liberals here that this is in fact what he's trying to do? Or is there room in the narrative that his goal was to rile everyone up and where they went with that is more on them?

His goal was to rile everyone up in order to get them to make sure he keeps his job.  How exactly they went about it was up to them.  But still on him.

He didn't send out specific orders to intimidate congress-critters, but he did wind everyone up with a definite goal in mind.

yossarian22c

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #84 on: January 13, 2021, 02:45:31 PM »
Is it the consensus among liberals here that this is in fact what he's trying to do? Or is there room in the narrative that his goal was to rile everyone up and where they went with that is more on them?

Trump is consistently lying about having won the election and there being massive fraud that stole a "landslide" victory from him. He called on protesters to come to the capital to save our country, march to the capital and fight like hell. That violence followed was not surprising. So yes, I think he has been trying to get his protesters worked into a big enough froth that he would be justified in declaring martial law and in some way holding onto power. I don't think it was ever a plan that had much chance of success but I do think he was hoping for something like that. As can be seen by his first message to protesters, we love you, you've done enough today go home. But that was only after all the congress people had gotten to safe rooms. What would the crowd and Trump have done if they had gotten their hands on Pence or Pelosi and started dragging them towards the gallows?

So yes, I think Trump wanted violence. I think he thought he was couching his language enough to avoid direct consequences to himself but I think he got the outcome he was looking for, his supporters violently rising up to support him.


DonaldD

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #85 on: January 13, 2021, 02:51:56 PM »
I'm not as informed about the minutiae going on as I could be, but Aris, are you trying to imply that it is Trump and his fascistic ways that are directly causing the Congresspeople to fear for their lives? I realize that there is room to argue indirect causation, for instance people doing and saying things he didn't tell them to but which he also isn't doing anything to stop. But you are making it out like he's Emperor Palpatine trying to take over the Congress through fear and threats.

Is it the consensus among liberals here that this is in fact what he's trying to do? Or is there room in the narrative that his goal was to rile everyone up and where they went with that is more on them?
If only there was some way to gauge Trump's words and rhetoric, and the effect it was having on the discourse of his followers... some way to 'listen in' on their conversations, maybe, or to read reports on threats being made to public servants, judges, politicians, etc, over months but especially since the campaign and the election...

Oh wait, those threats to all those people have been reported on for months, of people making threats in support of Trump, of threats to his opponents, of online discussions calling for physical attacks against his opponents and the government. It's just that, even though people have been warning him that his statements were incendiary, he just didn't realize what that word meant, so he shouldn't be held responsible.

Aris Katsaris

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #86 on: January 13, 2021, 02:54:59 PM »
Or rather, imagine looking at this from an international lens, like as if you were Finnish and watching reporting on American current events. A lot of the rhetoric here on Ornery is "Trump is a madman", but I suspect a lot of the sentiment elsewhere might just be "Americans are madmen."

I'm Greek. I consider myself center-left but I voted for the center-right party ("New Democracy") last elections. So I don't need to "imagine" looking at this from an international lens, I am actually looking at this from an international lens.

Right now the center-right party of Greece is putting out youtube ads mocking the previous *leftist* prime minister Tsipras for having said (back in 2017) "Trump's style looks demonic, but I believe it's in the service of good."

Got that? The main *right-wing* party of Greece is now finding the opportunity to mock the leftist former PM for having claimed Trump as acting "in the service of good".

And that's a right-wing party btw that has been accused itself (and rightfully so) of being too sympathetic to fascists, even having a few people with former fascist links in high positions.

I mean that's how evident Trump's absolute badness is, and how unanimous everyone about it is here.

But see, in early autumn, the neonazis of Greece (the political party that most praised Trump) were finally convicted and imprisoned -- so it wouldn't have been so unanimous two years earlier when they were still in parliament. The greek neonazis would have had Trump's back two years earlier.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 02:59:00 PM by Aris Katsaris »

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #87 on: January 13, 2021, 03:27:54 PM »
TheDeamon:
Quote
They need to bear in mind that not everyone who found themselves wandering around on Capital Hill did anything to warrant outright denouncement, much like those "useful idiots" I kept complaining about at the Portland riots where peaceful protesters would simply stand around in the street and watch as the rioters went about doing "their thing" at the Federal Buildings there.

I might be misremembering, but you were not so much 'complaining about' as 'advocating beating the hell out of' the useful idiots.  Or was that a different poster? 
Something about if you are in the same general area, and wearing the same clothing, then you should not be complaining if the police beat your ass 4 hours later on your way home.  Because wearing the 'uniform' of the people throwing rocks and Molotov cocktails at the Federal building is equal to declaring allegiance with them.

In the context of events which had been ongoing for weeks at that point. And I'd be more than happy to call those people wandering Capital Hill "useful idiots" for QAnon to leverage. (Edit: Also only in the context of being present during a declared riot and failing to obey orders to disperse in the immediate vicinity of somewhere that violent protest had just been happening at)

Also note I'm not decrying police tactics for clearing those people out of Capitol Hill. Much like I was defending police tactics for clearing everyone out of their exclusion zones around the Federal Buildings in Portland.

You're making a false equivalence claim. What I'm posting about here is in regards to prosecution of said "useful idiots" which the Democrats are likely going to push for in the case of Capitol Hill. If you trespassed on the 6th, you're going to be prosecuted, even if that is all you did. And if you review my earlier comments re: "Civil Disobedience" I'm actually okay with that part too.

What I'm not okay with is the matter that those "useful idiots" in Portland on the other hand? If all they did was trespass, they're free to go, no charges pending or being examined. One side is being given license to do as they please, the other is getting the book thrown at them. Lovely demonstration of the equal application of the law.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 03:30:15 PM by TheDeamon »

TheDrake

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #88 on: January 13, 2021, 04:15:48 PM »
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He didn't send out specific orders to intimidate congress-critters, but he did wind everyone up with a definite goal in mind.

That's debatable. The very end of his speech:

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So we’re going to, we’re going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue, I love Pennsylvania Avenue, and we’re going to the Capitol and we’re going to try and give… The Democrats are hopeless. They’re never voting for anything, not even one vote. But we’re going to try and give our Republicans, the weak ones, because the strong ones don’t need any of our help, we’re going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country.

Now how exactly is a mob going to give Republicans "Pride and Boldness"? I think it is hard to envision a peaceful event influencing the decision any Republican in the chamber was about to make. I mean sure, it's not like Trump started the "Hang Mike Pence" chant.

DonaldD

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #89 on: January 13, 2021, 04:19:20 PM »
Hundreds of attackers were literally in the process of a criminal act - at the very least, being illegally in the Capitol during the attack - and were allowed to leave without arrest.  Of course, that ignores the context of the trespass, that it was done as a function of an attack on the transfer of presidential power.

Contrast that to the claim that anybody wearing black clothes and still on a public street in Portland was fair game to be violently arrested. Yes, rioters in Portland should have been and were arrested.  But so were people with just the wrong taste in clothing, and you were more than OK with that.  And those people were not trying to overthrow the government at the time.


DonaldD

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #90 on: January 13, 2021, 04:22:09 PM »
Now how exactly is a mob going to give Republicans "Pride and Boldness"?

Obviously, it's a complete coincidence that members of Congress now fear for their lives if they are seen to be in support of taking action against the president.  Completely coincidental and unpredictable.

rightleft22

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #91 on: January 13, 2021, 04:41:46 PM »
Fenring:
Quote
Is it the consensus among liberals here that this is in fact what he's trying to do? Or is there room in the narrative that his goal was to rile everyone up and where they went with that is more on them?

His goal was to rile everyone up in order to get them to make sure he keeps his job.  How exactly they went about it was up to them.  But still on him.

He didn't send out specific orders to intimidate congress-critters, but he did wind everyone up with a definite goal in mind.

Trump Jr and Giuliani rally comments leading up to Trump's were very provocative as well. I think both should be held accountable as well. Giuliani should be disbarred at a min

msquared

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #92 on: January 13, 2021, 04:43:30 PM »
Well Trump is the first President to get impeached twice.

msquared

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #93 on: January 13, 2021, 04:49:36 PM »
He gets a trial in the Senate, probably starting on Jan 19 since McConnell will not call the Senate back early.  If they convict him (with a 2/3 majority) they can then do a simple majority vote to make it impossible to ever hold national office again.  I think McConnell likes this idea because it pulls Trump out of the 2024 race.  I think the GOP main stream members would like this idea. I know at least 3-4 Rep Senators support conviction already.

rightleft22

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #94 on: January 13, 2021, 04:51:29 PM »
He gets a trial in the Senate, probably starting on Jan 19 since McConnell will not call the Senate back early.  If they convict him (with a 2/3 majority) they can then do a simple majority vote to make it impossible to ever hold national office again.  I think McConnell likes this idea because it pulls Trump out of the 2024 race.  I think the GOP main stream members would like this idea. I know at least 3-4 Rep Senators support conviction already.

opps removed my comment that you were responding to

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #95 on: January 13, 2021, 06:53:08 PM »
But is the question whether it protects democracy, or is the issue whether the tech companies have a right to make that decision? Because I kinda remember that Trump wanted the abolition of Section 230, exactly so that Twitter would be shut down because they'd then be liable for anything their users posted, and no online platform can survive that.

So it's a bit ironic that the Trumpists are complaining for Big Tech acting voluntarily the way Trump would have mandated them by law to act.

Section 230 needs reformed, not abolished. Trump was off his rocker on that demand.

What section 230 needs to stronger definitions of certain terms that are being interpreted in an overly broad way at this time, and further strengthening of the requirement for Service Providers to "act in good faith" if they want to be protected by section 230.

What Amazon, Google, and Apple did with Parler was not good faith behavior. As such, they should be subject to liability claims, but not necessarily from the avenues you are thinking about.

In my book, anyone who is sheltering behind section 230 is assuming a "public square/space" position, and if they have assumed that role, then they have the same restrictions on what they can regulate as a shopping center does on who can engage in political speech in their parking lot.

If nothing else, once Parler rebuilds its legal team, they probably are going to be one of the strongest Section 230 challenges as currently written/interpreted brought forth to date. I expect Google and Apple (and Amazon, again) are going to be sued by Parler soon enough, and it's going to require taking on Section 230 to make it stick--as they're going to hide behind it.

Aris Katsaris

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #96 on: January 13, 2021, 07:11:15 PM »
One side is being given license to do as they please, the other is getting the book thrown at them. Lovely demonstration of the equal application of the law.

Leaving aside as to *what* happened, in which I'm not fully informed in regards to all cases that occurred in the summer riots, I do want to draw this diagram to you:

(A) Rightful Ends & Rightful Means -> Support
(B) Wrongful Ends & Rightful Means -> Condemnation but Acceptance
(C) Rightful Ends & Wrongful Means -> Condemnation but (perhaps) Sympathy. Or perhaps Lenience. Or perhaps not. Depending on *how* wrongful.
(D) Wrongful Ends & Wrongful Means -> Unrelenting hatred.

The *peaceful* BLM protesters fell under (A). They had a good cause (oppose police brutality), and used peaceful means.
The *violent* BLM protesters fell under (C). They used wrong means, but they still had a rightful cause.
The capitol rioters were under (D). They wanted to do something very bad (overthrow a lawful election), and they also used very bad means to do it.

I hope this explains why we kinda hate the Capitol rioters more.

DonaldD

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #97 on: January 13, 2021, 07:27:34 PM »
The president's legal team just made him read a speech condemning violence, and claiming his 'movement' is not at all about violence.  But will it give enough cover for Senate Republicans?  And will it be enough to rebut the almost inevitable criminal charges?

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #98 on: January 13, 2021, 08:21:28 PM »
The president's legal team just made him read a speech condemning violence, and claiming his 'movement' is not at all about violence.  But will it give enough cover for Senate Republicans?  And will it be enough to rebut the almost inevitable criminal charges?

Criminal charges aren't going to stick to Trump, guaranteed. There is enough legal precedent to make that clear.

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #99 on: January 13, 2021, 08:24:40 PM »
One side is being given license to do as they please, the other is getting the book thrown at them. Lovely demonstration of the equal application of the law.

Leaving aside as to *what* happened, in which I'm not fully informed in regards to all cases that occurred in the summer riots, I do want to draw this diagram to you:

(A) Rightful Ends & Rightful Means -> Support
(B) Wrongful Ends & Rightful Means -> Condemnation but Acceptance
(C) Rightful Ends & Wrongful Means -> Condemnation but (perhaps) Sympathy. Or perhaps Lenience. Or perhaps not. Depending on *how* wrongful.
(D) Wrongful Ends & Wrongful Means -> Unrelenting hatred.

The *peaceful* BLM protesters fell under (A). They had a good cause (oppose police brutality), and used peaceful means.
The *violent* BLM protesters fell under (C). They used wrong means, but they still had a rightful cause.
The capitol rioters were under (D). They wanted to do something very bad (overthrow a lawful election), and they also used very bad means to do it.

I hope this explains why we kinda hate the Capitol rioters more.

Ahhh.. But as per the logic applied to the BLM Riots, you could be present at a place where a riot is taking place for the purpose of protesting without being a rioter.

Which means there were "protesters" among those rioters. Which means the Protesters fall under B. Agreed as the rioters falling under D. Now you just have to figure out which is which. I am interested in seeing how you suss that one out, and see how that could apply to Portland.