Cancelled

[yossarian22c]

Well the Republicans have cancelled Liz Cheney and for one reason only. She did not support the Big Lie Trump is spouting about election fraud.  That is it.  The Cult of Personality of Trump has claimed another victim.  They did not remove her from her position due to not following conservative ideal, but becuase she dared to say the Emporer had no clothes.

This is the day the Party died.

They have chosen to be the party of Trump. Their platform is Trump, it is whatever he said last. All Republican leaders must bow to the Great Leader. I was hoping they would cleanse themselves of his stink after his loss. But seems like they don't know how to rid themselves of this loser. The damage of his lies is going to last a generation at least. I just hope we can have enough peaceful elections in a row to avoid more violence from his nonsense. Trump ripped the fabric of our democracy because his ego couldn't handle losing. He is clearly the worst president in our nations history.

[TheDrake]

I'd be hard pressed to call him the worst president. Grant comes to mind, and also Jackson. FDR was pretty bad, at least Trump didn't round up citizens and put them in camps and steal their property, not to mention threatening to nerf SCOTUS. Hoover helped cause economic devastation. Tyler defended slavery adamantly. Harding made any Trump corruption look like a nursery rhyme. Johnson opposed reconstruction and the 14th amendment.

[Wayward Son]

No matter how many times you split it, it still shows that Trump is a hair up our nation's b*tt. 

[rightleft22]

I'd be hard pressed to call him the worst president. Grant comes to mind, and also Jackson. FDR was pretty bad, at least Trump didn't round up citizens and put them in camps and steal their property, not to mention threatening to nerf SCOTUS. Hoover helped cause economic devastation. Tyler defended slavery adamantly. Harding made any Trump corruption look like a nursery rhyme. Johnson opposed reconstruction and the 14th amendment.

It is said that History is written by the victors. In Grants case his legacy ended up being written by those he defeated, a different kind of canceling. Like most people I never questioned Grant being a 'bad President' but that may not be based on facts.
Much of the History around Slavery was not written by the victors. begs the question of why and why was being 'canceled'

If I were a betting man I would bet that Trump goes down in the History books (100+ years from now) as the worst and a turning point. Worse may follow, but they will be Trump wanabees.  A Turning point our dependents probably wish we hadn't taken.

[rightleft22]

Liz Cheney appeared to be pushing for the vote.
If reality finally finds a way to slap the GOP across the face and wake it up Liz Cheney in a good position?

[Wayward Son]

Did anyone hear Liz's last speech on the House floor while she was still part of House leadership?

"We must speak the truth. Our election was not stolen. And America has not failed," Cheney said.
"Every one of us who has sworn the oath must act to prevent the unraveling of our democracy. This is not about policy. This is not about partisanship. This is about our duty as Americans. Remaining silent and ignoring the lie emboldens the liar," Cheney said. "I will not sit back and watch in silence while others lead our party down a path that abandons the rule of law and joins the former President's crusade to undermine our democracy."

Just think of all those Republican representatives in swing districts that will have to explain their vote next election.

[yossarian22c]

Just think of all those Republican representatives in swing districts that will have to explain their vote next election.

They made it a voice vote so individuals didn't have to go on record one way or the other.

[Wayward Son]

Republicans standing up for their convictions yet again. 

[cherrypoptart]

"We must speak the truth. Our election was not stolen. And America has not failed," Cheney said.

"Every one of us who has sworn the oath must act to prevent the unraveling of our democracy. This is not about policy. This is not about partisanship. This is about our duty as Americans. Remaining silent and ignoring the lie emboldens the liar," Cheney said. "I will not sit back and watch in silence while others lead our party down a path that abandons the rule of law and joins the former President's crusade to undermine our democracy."

It sounds like she could just as well be talking about the Russian collusion hoax. Too bad prominent Democrats didn't stand up against the lies about a stolen election then instead of going through the charade of a trumped up kangaroo court impeachment. Of course if they had they probably would have lost the 2020 election. Their lies fooled more than enough people. Still do in fact.

When you think about it, the election actually was stolen. No not by voter fraud. It was stolen by the Democrat lies about Russian collusion and Trump stealing a rigged 2016 election. Voter fraud didn't change enough votes to make a difference but those lies and the media collusion in propagating them most assuredly did.

[msquared]

It was not stolen by that. It was lost by Trump and his pathetic response to Covid-19.  I truly believe that if we had not had the virus, or it Trump had had a better response to it, he would still be President.

[TheDrake]

The avoidance here is palpable. Want to defend Trump versus FDR on the merits Wayward, rightleft? I expect cherry to be incapable of civil discourse, but surely you don't really want to dodge your own assertion "Trump worst president ever?"

[cherrypoptart]

I deny the accusation and insist on my innocence. I've been nothing but super duper civil for over a decade now. I like all y'all, my peeps. Disagree sometimes 100% but that's what it's all about. Sadly it's getting to the point where if silence is violence then what does that make an honest disagreement?

And for the record not only do I disagree about Trump being the worst President ever, I actually think he was the best. We have only to see how much damage Biden has done in such a short time. Threw open the borders during a pandemic, threw away peace in the Middle-East, gas lines, inflation, unemployment, massive spending with massive tax hikes, Supreme Court packing, flipping the bird to Republicans and one upping Obama's "elections have consequences" abandonment of any pretense for bipartisanship, the war on cops, and as expected we have his puppet masters' war on white people with the absurdity and insult of declaring that the greatest threats to America come from white supremacists especially prior military and attack on little white children in the classroom by pushing critical race theory to make them ashamed of their crime of being born white. It's interesting how "I was born this way" isn't any defense either. Biden is a far greater disaster far more quickly than my worst fears had ever imagined.

And that's just right out of the gate. We are in for a world of hurt. And as always the greatest danger comes from the left's failure to acknowledge failure, admit mistakes, and change course. Almost without exception, their feedback loops reinforce compounding failing policy after failing policy by thinking the mistake isn't the policy itself that went in the wrong direction but the fact that it didn't go big enough and fast enough and far enough so as the bus heads toward the cliff they believe if they just give it more gas they can fly.

And there's nothing not civil about any of that. No personal attacks against anyone. No name calling. No tantrum. Just my opinion.

Mr. Card's last essay applies even more now than it did back then, and the disease angle seems prophetic. I can appreciate how he almost certainly disagrees with me about Trump though. And that's fine. But Obama was a disaster and Biden will be even worse, probably already is even this short time in.

[Aris Katsaris]

It sounds like she could just as well be talking about the Russian collusion hoax.

It wasn't a hoax you fascist MONSTER! The Russian did interfere in your election, and the Trump campaign was PROPERLY investigated for their numerous meetings with the Russians.

Hoax, hoax? After four years of a Trump presidency, a Trump congress, and a Trump Supreme Court, why havent' you put in jail anyone who supposedly perpetrated this hoax?

Oh, yeah, because it WASN'T A HOAX, you fascist pig.

If Venezuela or China had done what Russia did, and if the Biden campaign had cooperated as closely with them as Trump did with Russia, then you would have called it PROOF of election fraud, you EVIL EVIL hypocrite and monster.

Go to hell, both you and the fascist pig dictator you worship. Go lick Putin's balls, like Trump did. Trump throughout his presidency, acted PRIMARILY in his own interest, secondarily in Russia's interest, and only tertially in America's interest. Whenever Russia and United States (or their allies) were in conflict, Trump made sure to take Russia's side. Repeatedly and consistently.

He knew full well who supported him to get elected, and he showed the corresponding amount of gratitude to Russia.

Aris: Please see your email. -OrneryMod

[Aris Katsaris]

The avoidance here is palpable. Want to defend Trump versus FDR on the merits Wayward, rightleft? I expect cherry to be incapable of civil discourse, but surely you don't really want to dodge your own assertion "Trump worst president ever?"

Trump single-handedly destroyed a 230-year legacy of peaceful transition in presidential power, and argued that the current vice-president can just throw out any votes he didn't like, thus each vice-president being able to determine the next president.

I don't know of any presidential failure to support and defend the very basis of the constitution as big as that one.

Yes, presidents have violated rights of citizens in the past. But AFAIK it's Trump alone who wanted to proclaim himself dictator, by trying to have his own vice-president appoint him the rightful winner of the next elections.

Anything else is small potatoes.

[yossarian22c]

...
If Venezuela or China had done what Russia did, and if the Biden campaign had cooperated as closely with them as Trump did with Russia, then you would have called it PROOF of election fraud, you EVIL EVIL hypocrite and monster.

Go to hell, both you and the fascist pig dictator you worship. Go lick Putin's balls, like Trump did. Trump throughout his presidency, acted PRIMARILY in his own interest, secondarily in Russia's interest, and only tertially in America's interest. Whenever Russia and United States (or their allies) were in conflict, Trump made sure to take Russia's side. Repeatedly and consistently.

Dial it back a notch (or 5) on making it about them personally being evil. Doesn't do anything to change minds and just makes the discourse more toxic.

[rightleft22]

To be clear I said history will judge and that If I was a betting man I would bet that Trump trumps the list of worst.  I will leave that for history.
My guess is that he will be judged on his divisive methods and communication more then policies.  I believe the generations looking back will see this moment of time as a turning point, probably one where the US turns on itself... but it could go the other way... I don't have much hope

If Liz Cheney survives the next few years she will be in a good position to become President one day as I can imagine the independents turning out for her. A Conservatives with values and the guts to stand by them (even if it also a calculated image).

[rightleft22]

...
If Venezuela or China had done what Russia did, and if the Biden campaign had cooperated as closely with them as Trump did with Russia, then you would have called it PROOF of election fraud, you EVIL EVIL hypocrite and monster.

Go to hell, both you and the fascist pig dictator you worship. Go lick Putin's balls, like Trump did. Trump throughout his presidency, acted PRIMARILY in his own interest, secondarily in Russia's interest, and only tertially in America's interest. Whenever Russia and United States (or their allies) were in conflict, Trump made sure to take Russia's side. Repeatedly and consistently.

Dial it back a notch (or 5) on making it about them personally being evil. Doesn't do anything to change minds and just makes the discourse more toxic.

You aren't wrong, yet I understand the frustration. Watching some of those senators shamelessly rewriting the history of the 6th and knowing that many of their supports will fall for the gaslighting... What words will help make discourse less toxic?  When people want to believe the Lie because they want/need to believe it where is dialog possible?

[yossarian22c]

You aren't wrong, yet I understand the frustration. Watching some of those senators shamelessly rewriting the history of the 6th and knowing that many of their supports will fall for the gaslighting... What words will help make discourse less toxic?  When people want to believe the Lie because they want/need to believe it where is dialog possible?

I understand the frustration as well. But I know that calling someone names rarely does anything to change their mind. I don't know how many times I've listed out all the connections between Russia and the Trump campaign (meetings, sharing polling data, what Roger Stone lied to congress about, ...).

The only thing I can hope is that Facebook and Twitter keep Trump off their platforms. His megaphone is still big enough as is. He is a constant liar. He lies only to benefit himself and doesn't give a damn about the country. Hopefully with some time we'll see his grip on the American right fade, but I share your fears that his presidency will be a sign of things to come. Biden will do some good to restore norms. But if the American political right stays beholden to Trump the restoring of norms will be temporary.

[rightleft22]

Outside the Coliseum were the Amazonia recount is taking place a armed man stands sentry expecting a attack from BLM
The man is certain in his certainty as he explains the lack of facts and proof is proof. He sees no problem with taking action based on that reasoning. One wonders if he ever thinks to askes himself if there could be something else behind his fear.

The Cancel culture isn't new or something that only occurs on the right or left.  I fear we are in the process of canceling our critical thinking abilities and handing it over to our 'smart phones'
 

[TheDrake]

The avoidance here is palpable. Want to defend Trump versus FDR on the merits Wayward, rightleft? I expect cherry to be incapable of civil discourse, but surely you don't really want to dodge your own assertion "Trump worst president ever?"

Trump single-handedly destroyed a 230-year legacy of peaceful transition in presidential power, and argued that the current vice-president can just throw out any votes he didn't like, thus each vice-president being able to determine the next president.

I don't know of any presidential failure to support and defend the very basis of the constitution as big as that one.

Yes, presidents have violated rights of citizens in the past. But AFAIK it's Trump alone who wanted to proclaim himself dictator, by trying to have his own vice-president appoint him the rightful winner of the next elections.

Anything else is small potatoes.

Well, not exactly single handedly. He had an awful lot of help from Tucker Carlson to Ted Cruz. He certainly did fuel it.

FDR came awfully close to being a dictator, enough so that he triggered term limits and more controls.

As for challenging elections, lets see:

1877: Hayes stole the election from Tilden amidst widespread allegations of fraud.
1888: Republicans supporting Harrison openly bribed voters
1960: Nixon and his supporters openly declared fraud, though he didn't officially challenge results
2000: The wild series of Bush/Gore challenges

Trump is bad sure, but keep things in a little perspective. The Republic is a lot stronger than you give it credit for. To this day people cite the Nixon election as fraudulent and that leaks over and supports current allegations.

[yossarian22c]

...
1877: Hayes stole the election from Tilden amidst widespread allegations of fraud.
1888: Republicans supporting Harrison openly bribed voters
1960: Nixon and his supporters openly declared fraud, though he didn't officially challenge results
2000: The wild series of Bush/Gore challenges

Trump is bad sure, but keep things in a little perspective. The Republic is a lot stronger than you give it credit for. To this day people cite the Nixon election as fraudulent and that leaks over and supports current allegations.

And in all of those cases the loser of the election acknowledged they lost. Offered a concession speech and at least pretended to try to bring the country together despite their personal feelings. They put country first. Trump made up voter fraud and has made is so that a majority of Republicans no longer trust democratic elections in our country. That damage is hard to repair and the immediate consequences are Republicans passing bills all over the country making voting harder. And its not just about catching voter fraud. They could expand early voting, improve funding so that there would never be lines on election day as they cut back on mail in voting but it usually is going the other way. There are less opportunities to vote in person, no increase in voting capacity on election day, and its more difficult to vote on election day.

Now what happens the if the next election is as close as 2000. ~500 votes in a singles state. Will either side ever offer a concession after an election like that again or will we have years of lawsuits even after the new president is sworn in? We know the Republicans wouldn't concede at this point. This is the damage he's done. Its not some policy, he's chipped away at the foundation of that Republic you state is so strong. I hope I'm wrong and the Republican party can be brought back before it gets worse. But as long as the path to political power in the Republican party depends on sucking up to Trump the country is in a bad place. And most of the damage won't go away quickly, just like you said people still bring up the 1960 election as fraudulent 60 years down the road. In 2080 are people going to still be bitter about 2020?

[TheDeamon]

Liz Cheney appeared to be pushing for the vote.
If reality finally finds a way to slap the GOP across the face and wake it up Liz Cheney in a good position?

Reality is the Republicans don't have a clue what is going on with their Conservative Base, and as such have opted for the "easy answer" of "it must be something about Trump" which is partly right, but also largely wrong.

Remember in 2016 I was saying Trump's nomination to the Republican Ticket was "the Tea Party's revenge" on the GOP waging war against their own base in 2014, so their own base went with the "burn it down" option. It just also happened that he managed to secure that nomination in 2016, where it put him up against Hilary Clinton.... Where an even larger contingent of people were willing to risk things burning down under Trump rather than what Hillary Clinton's potential administration might try.

Then Trump delivered on many of the things he campaigned on. Unlike the Republicans in Congress.

Which made him more popular than the GOP Republicans in Congress. (Low bar to clear, I know)

But the feckless GOP in Washington don't understand that while there is a huge political base waiting to be tapped into that is willing to stand against the nonsense of the DNC and other left-wing activists, they're failing to do exactly that. But Trump was.

All they understand is that "Trump has some magical connection with conservative voters we don't understand" and think it must be Trump they're rallying around.

Never underestimate the ability of the GOP to seize defeat from the jaws of Victory. They're very effective at making exactly the wrong decisions on a wide range of things. But they're also the only viable game in town when it comes to standing against the DNC and the radical left, which leaves a great many voters at an impasse.

[Fenring]

Never underestimate the ability of the GOP to seize defeat from the jaws of Victory. They're very effective at making exactly the wrong decisions on a wide range of things. But they're also the only viable game in town when it comes to standing against the DNC and the radical left, which leaves a great many voters at an impasse.

Haha, funny enough as I was reading this I was almost simultaneously thinking that the same statement could apply to either party (with a few minor alterations). It's almost like both parties are full of crap and don't have a clue how to appeal to what people really want. It's almost like they have other priorities...