Author Topic: The Jan 6 Commission  (Read 55157 times)

cherrypoptart

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #150 on: November 12, 2021, 04:49:36 AM »
"A New Jersey gym owner who punched a police officer during the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol has been sentenced to more than three years in prison. Scott Fairlamb's sentencing on Wednesday to 41 months in prison
...
Lamberth said Fairlamb's actions struck at "the heart of our democracy." He had pleaded guilty, avoiding a trial."

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That's cool. People who punch police officers should get prison time, definitely. Over three years though?

Meanwhile... only 6 months, maybe even just in luxury home confinement, for stabbing an old man in the back of the head multiple times and so hard it fractures his skull. No word on the race of the victim. I wonder if that means anything.

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"SANTA ANA, Calif. — The son of basketball legend Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was sentenced to six months in jail for stabbing a Southern California neighbor with a hunting knife during an argument over trash cans, prosecutors said Wednesday.

Adam Abdul-Jabbar, 29, was sentenced Tuesday after pleading guilty to three counts of assault with a deadly weapon and one count of carrying a dirk or dagger, with sentencing enhancements for inflicting great bodily injury, according to the Orange County district attorney's office.

Abdul-Jabbar accepted a plea deal from an Orange County judge. The sentence was stayed until Jan. 7 so that Abdul-Jabbar can apply for home confinement instead of incarceration, the DA's office said.

Probation officials will decide whether he will be permitted home confinement.

Prosecutors had sought a seven-year jail sentence and objected to the plea offer.

Abdul-Jabbar and his San Clemente neighbor share a driveway. Abdul-Jabbar stabbed the 60-year-old neighbor several times on June 9 of last year after the man confronted him about failing to take in trash cans for Abdul-Jabbar's elderly roommate, prosecutors said.

The 60-year-old, was stabbed in the back of the head, suffering a fractured skull and nearly died of blood loss after collapsing outside of the emergency room, prosecutors said.

"This slap on the wrist is an absolute miscarriage of justice," District Attorney Todd Spitzer said in a statement after the sentencing. "This man nearly bled to death in front of the emergency room doors after being stabbed so violently over and over that his skull was fractured."

"We believe the complete disregard for human life over a dispute over trashcans is so egregious it warranted prison time," Spitzer said."

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The important thing though is to send a message that questioning the integrity of our elections will not be tolerated. So for the guy who punched the police officer, he gets 6 months for that and then the rest is for thinking that there might be more voter fraud than is caught, also known as treason.

LetterRip

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #151 on: November 12, 2021, 08:42:23 AM »
First off Fairlamb had an (extended) collapsible baton in his hand.  So he was looking at 20 years.  Secondly battery against a police officer tend to be enhanced sentences.  Battery against a police officer as part of an insurrection should absolutely receive a harsher than typical sentence.

I too am shocked and outraged at Adam Abdul-Jabbar's obscenely light sentence.  I think he should have received at least 5 years.  There appears to be no rational reason for such an incredibly light sentence and it is a clear miscarriage of justice.  I really think there should be investigation of the judge in this matter.

So I agree with you that Adam's sentence is wrongfully light, but Fairlamb's sentence seems entirely just.  Both are extremely serious crimes - with Fairlamb's being entirely within typical results, and Adam's being extremely atypical and something has gone quite wrong with the system in his case.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 08:44:39 AM by LetterRip »

LetterRip

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #152 on: November 12, 2021, 08:50:42 AM »
This judge (assuming this is the same judge) has done other absurdly unjust sentences,

Quote
In December 2012, Judge Johnson was admonished by the California Commission on Judicial Performance for violating his impartiality during a sexual assault case in 2008. After a jury found the defendant guilty on seven counts of rape and other violations, Johnson imposed a sentence of only six years in prison instead of the sixteen sought by the prosecutor. When the prosecutor questioned that decision, Johnson said,

“   If someone doesn't want to have sexual intercourse, the body shuts down. The body will not permit that to happen unless a lot of damage is inflicted, and we heard nothing about that in this case.[5][6]   ”
The commission unanimously found that Johnson failed to act "in a manner that promotes public confidence in the integrity and impartiality of the judiciary," and that he "improperly relied on his own 'expert opinion'...rather than evidence before him." Johnson admitted that his comments were inappropriate, and he apologized.[5][7]

https://ballotpedia.org/Derek_Guy_Johnson

yossarian22c

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #153 on: November 12, 2021, 09:05:43 AM »
"A New Jersey gym owner who punched a police officer during the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol has been sentenced to more than three years in prison. Scott Fairlamb's sentencing on Wednesday to 41 months in prison
...
Lamberth said Fairlamb's actions struck at "the heart of our democracy." He had pleaded guilty, avoiding a trial."

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That's cool. People who punch police officers should get prison time, definitely. Over three years though?

...

The important thing though is to send a message that questioning the integrity of our elections will not be tolerated. So for the guy who punched the police officer, he gets 6 months for that and then the rest is for thinking that there might be more voter fraud than is caught, also known as treason.

Wow you found a case where someone with money got a lighter sentence than deserved. I'm shocked, shocked, such a thing happens. I'm sure I can find a story of some black kid hitting  a cop and getting more than 3 years. Would that make this just? Address the issue, don't play what aboutism crap with any assault charge you can find.


msquared

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #154 on: November 12, 2021, 09:11:14 AM »
I really wonder what Trump is trying to hide.  His suite to block the info using Executive Privilege is doomed to failure.  If he has nothing to hide, if he and his  people did nothing wrong, why work so hard to hide the info?

LetterRip

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #155 on: November 12, 2021, 09:14:16 AM »
It is unclear how Adam's sentence could have happened,

judicial plea bargaining isn't allowed in California, and a prosecutor can appeal if a judge does a plea bargain,

Quote
The prosecutor appealed the sentence as being the result of judicial plea bargaining.

https://www.greghillassociates.com/indicated-sentence-and-illegal-plea-bargaining-by-a-judge.html

And the plea was not offered by the prosecutor who objected to it.

So it seems unlikely that this plea bargain will be allowed by an appeals court if in fact it was a plea bargain, as all news organization I've found are reporting it as.

It is possible that it wasn't a "plea bargain" or "plea deal" and is being misreported.  It could have been a "plea in the open", where a prosecutor refuses to offer a plea and there is a direct appeal to a judge,

Quote
[...] a defendant can plead “in the open” to the judge, allowing the judge to sentence him or her as the judge sees fitting to the facts.  Before exercising this option, it is wise to request that the judge indicate the sentence intended by asking for “an indicated sentence,” without accepting it.  This way, the defendant knows in advance if it is wiser to accept the prosecutor’s offer instead.

So hopefully it was an improper plea bargain rather than a plea in the open, and will be disallowed by an appeals court.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 09:19:20 AM by LetterRip »

TheDrake

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #156 on: November 12, 2021, 04:07:01 PM »
Quote
PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) — A Portland man has been sentenced to five years in prison after pleading guilty to first-degree arson for starting a dumpster fire near the city’s North Precinct during a protest nearly a year ago.

Authorities say Gavaughn Streeter-Hillerich, 23, was recorded intentionally setting fire to a large dumpster near the exterior of the police precinct on June 26, 2020.

That was for damaging an inanimate object near an empty police precinct? I mean it was a real surprise to find that people there did get convicted, because I keep reading about how they all got away with everything and Portland refused to prosecute anyone.

msquared

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #157 on: November 12, 2021, 04:09:17 PM »
Shhhhhh. They mean all of the other of millions of rioters who got away with murdering everyone in the whole city.

msquared

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #158 on: November 12, 2021, 04:24:53 PM »
Bannon  has been indicted for contempt of Congress.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/former-trump-adviser-steve-bannon-205800607.html

TheDrake

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #159 on: November 12, 2021, 05:10:52 PM »
Doesn't that mean that Bannon will simply exercise his fifth amendment rights?

TheDeamon

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #160 on: November 12, 2021, 08:10:10 PM »
Quote
PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) — A Portland man has been sentenced to five years in prison after pleading guilty to first-degree arson for starting a dumpster fire near the city’s North Precinct during a protest nearly a year ago.

Authorities say Gavaughn Streeter-Hillerich, 23, was recorded intentionally setting fire to a large dumpster near the exterior of the police precinct on June 26, 2020.

That was for damaging an inanimate object near an empty police precinct? I mean it was a real surprise to find that people there did get convicted, because I keep reading about how they all got away with everything and Portland refused to prosecute anyone.

I have to wonder if that was a plea to a "lesser charge" as during the Portland riots some rioters did try to block off the entrances of a police precinct building which still had a skeleton staff inside and set fire to it. Given how those kinds of things tend to work, the would be arsonist behind that probably was setting fires elsewhere nearby as well.

Trying to create an equivalence to that event and the DC riots on January 6th is a comparing actions happening at very different scales.

TheDrake

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #161 on: November 12, 2021, 08:57:45 PM »
Point being, this individual did not strike a cop, didn't hurt anyone and his sentence is heavier than the guy who did. You're claiming that it was inappropriate because of politics. But meanwhile you're complaining constantly about law and order, stiffer penalties, and not letting anyone get away with anything.

TheDeamon

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #162 on: November 13, 2021, 12:45:28 AM »
Point being, this individual did not strike a cop, didn't hurt anyone and his sentence is heavier than the guy who did. You're claiming that it was inappropriate because of politics. But meanwhile you're complaining constantly about law and order, stiffer penalties, and not letting anyone get away with anything.

Blocking off the exits to an occupied building and trying to set it on fire isn't just attempted arson, it is attempted pre-meditated murder. That the people in the building are law enforcement just amplify it.

Now can you outline how punching a cop approaches attempted murder? (Assuming I am correct on what the "underlying charges" actually are, vs what was charged in court)

TheDrake

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #163 on: November 13, 2021, 03:16:39 PM »
Where did you get attempted murder? There was no such charge. The charge was arson. No exits were blocked off by this individual.

TheDeamon

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #164 on: November 15, 2021, 03:47:50 AM »
Where did you get attempted murder? There was no such charge. The charge was arson. No exits were blocked off by this individual.

Did you see my comment about "lesser charge" and the matter of his being in close proximity to where that event took place. Depending on the evidence they had at hand, it was probably easier/cheaper to just get him to plead to the lesser charge and throw the book at him for that.

TheDrake

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #165 on: November 15, 2021, 09:33:03 AM »
That's not remotely close to my understanding of plea bargains. The typical path is to indict someone on the scariest things imaginable and then change it when they accept guilt. Face it, you have no evidence to support any claim that attempted murder was on the table, or that any lives were endangered. As opposed to cracking someone in the head with a baton in the vanguard of a mob.

yossarian22c

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #166 on: November 15, 2021, 01:48:47 PM »
I really wonder what Trump is trying to hide.  His suite to block the info using Executive Privilege is doomed to failure.  If he has nothing to hide, if he and his  people did nothing wrong, why work so hard to hide the info?

The whole goal is to delay until 2022 and hope Republicans win the house back and can bury everything for him.

yossarian22c

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #167 on: November 15, 2021, 02:15:56 PM »
Point being, this individual did not strike a cop, didn't hurt anyone and his sentence is heavier than the guy who did. You're claiming that it was inappropriate because of politics. But meanwhile you're complaining constantly about law and order, stiffer penalties, and not letting anyone get away with anything.

Setting fires in a city during a chaotic situation is dangerous. I don't have a problem with either prison sentence.

TheDrake

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #168 on: November 15, 2021, 02:20:55 PM »
For the record, since I didn't state it, I also have no problem with either sentence. They follow guidelines and are appropriate.

Grant

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #169 on: November 15, 2021, 06:29:27 PM »
Doesn't that mean that Bannon will simply exercise his fifth amendment rights?

I think they can get around that by granting immunity. 

Regardless, he has to stand trial for Contempt of Congress first, and that's going to take forever.  It could take years. 

TheDrake

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #170 on: November 16, 2021, 09:46:45 AM »
Doesn't that mean that Bannon will simply exercise his fifth amendment rights?

I think they can get around that by granting immunity. 

Regardless, he has to stand trial for Contempt of Congress first, and that's going to take forever.  It could take years.

It is an interesting question. No contempt of congress proceeding has gone to trial in over 50 years - hard to know how long it might take. Either way, the general result isn't to compel testimony but rather to punish for the affront, it appears.

Grant

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #171 on: November 16, 2021, 12:48:10 PM »

It is an interesting question. No contempt of congress proceeding has gone to trial in over 50 years - hard to know how long it might take. Either way, the general result isn't to compel testimony but rather to punish for the affront, it appears.

There are different options, from what I can tell.  There is Civil Contempt, where they try and get a federal judge to compel testimony or get hands on documents, like with Monsieur Attrapeur de Chats's tax returns.  There is Criminal Contempt, where they try and get the Justice Dept to take it to trial as a criminal case, what is going on with Ser Steve the Brave.  Then there is my favorite, Inherent Contempt, where they just have the Sergeant at Arms for Congress detain the individual until they comply. 

Personally, I would have loved to see William Walker just throw Ser Steve into some Congressional dungeon.  Probably would have involved extra jurisdictional problems, but it would have been fun.  Watch Lauren Boebert sneak in cigarettes and the blood of deported immigrants. 

TheDrake

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #172 on: November 17, 2021, 12:44:16 PM »
And the Shaman gets 41 months. It is going to be interesting to watch that subset of people who declared this was all secret antifa somehow turn around and get upset at the sentences. After all, shouldn't they want all these secret antifa folks in prison?

Meanwhile, those who convince themselves that 41 months is too much for someone who committed no assault should ask themselves a question. What would they be saying if this was a member of BLM committing the same acts?

If BLM invaded the capitol building, we'd have all the defenders of the existing Jan 6 incident calling them traitors and wanting them thrown in prison with maximum sentences. If it had been a different group, the teams would switch sides. Then you'd have the other side insisting it was an insurrection, and the opposite scoffing at that characterization.

TheDeamon

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #173 on: November 17, 2021, 08:22:33 PM »
And the Shaman gets 41 months. It is going to be interesting to watch that subset of people who declared this was all secret antifa somehow turn around and get upset at the sentences. After all, shouldn't they want all these secret antifa folks in prison?

Turns out it wasn't secret AntiFa, it was government informants and government agents among other assorted crazies.  ;)

TheDrake

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #174 on: November 18, 2021, 11:35:23 AM »
They are crazies all right. And yet that doesn't stop people from crying it is unfair for them to go to prison.

As for the government conspiracies, how many fbi informants put a flag on a spear and chanted about hanging Mike pence?

What about the millions of stop the steal people that wanted pence to shred the constitution?

We got no shortage of crazies, we just have to lock up the craziest.


TheDeamon

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #176 on: November 18, 2021, 03:48:56 PM »
They are crazies all right. And yet that doesn't stop people from crying it is unfair for them to go to prison.

As for the government conspiracies, how many fbi informants put a flag on a spear and chanted about hanging Mike pence?

What about the millions of stop the steal people that wanted pence to shred the constitution?

We got no shortage of crazies, we just have to lock up the craziest.

Narrative for many of the "stop the steal" crowd was they weren't asking for Pence to vote for Trump and shred the constitution. They were asking for him to refuse to certify the election for another week or so, to give the Trump team more time to find evidence of misconduct. (which they still haven't found sufficient amounts of)

Asking him to delay the process for a 7 to 10 days is not asking for him to make Trump the next PotUS by fiat.

msquared

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #177 on: November 18, 2021, 03:49:52 PM »
It was asking him to do something he had no right or power to do.

Grant

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #178 on: November 18, 2021, 04:03:55 PM »
Narrative for many of the "stop the steal" crowd was they weren't asking for Pence to vote for Trump and shred the constitution. They were asking for him to refuse to certify the election for another week or so, to give the Trump team more time to find evidence of misconduct. (which they still haven't found sufficient amounts of)

Maybe.  But that wasn't the plan advanced by Trump's own lawyers, and what they were asking for Pence to do. 

TheDrake

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #179 on: November 18, 2021, 05:16:35 PM »
Certainly not very many. I suppose we might dig up one quote from somebody who only wanted to delay certification, but that wasn't any message promoted at the rally. I mean, they didn't call it "delay the steal".

yossarian22c

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #180 on: November 18, 2021, 09:06:01 PM »
Certainly not very many. I suppose we might dig up one quote from somebody who only wanted to delay certification, but that wasn't any message promoted at the rally. I mean, they didn't call it "delay the steal".

Delay was the way Ted Cruz and a few other republican politicians played it. They knew the fraud claims were BS. They just wanted to throw some meat to the base and maybe find some way to boot the vote to congress where the republicans held the edge if it came to voting that way. Delay, distract, maybe steal was the strategy.

msquared

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #181 on: November 23, 2021, 09:33:57 PM »
So it looks like the people organizing the Jan 6 rally used burner phones to get into contact with Trump's team.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/jan-6-organizers-used-anonymous-011742108.html

Bought with cash and hard to trace. Popular with criminals because they are hard to trace.

I wonder what they were trying to hide or keep others from tracking?

msquared

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #182 on: November 30, 2021, 07:58:52 PM »
I wonder why Meadows decided to testify?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trumps-former-chief-staff-mark-181710196.html

Now lets hear all of the calls that he was a never Trumper and a RINO.

DJQuag

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #183 on: December 01, 2021, 12:58:13 AM »
If people in the year 2021 were trying to organise a democratic overthrow and *weren't* using burner phones, *that* would be the story. We've all seen Breaking Bad, right?

TheDeamon

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #184 on: December 01, 2021, 01:53:43 AM »
If people in the year 2021 were trying to organise a democratic overthrow and *weren't* using burner phones, *that* would be the story. We've all seen Breaking Bad, right?

I still haven't watched it? But I've been familiar with the idea of burner phones since coverage into the investigation of the September 11th attacks 20 years ago.

DJQuag

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #185 on: December 01, 2021, 06:21:04 AM »
If people in the year 2021 were trying to organise a democratic overthrow and *weren't* using burner phones, *that* would be the story. We've all seen Breaking Bad, right?

I still haven't watched it? But I've been familiar with the idea of burner phones since coverage into the investigation of the September 11th attacks 20 years ago.

Two things.

1) Watch it.

2) When things get tough, you don't want a criminal attorney. You want a *criminal* attorney.

NobleHunter

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #186 on: December 01, 2021, 08:58:58 AM »
If people in the year 2021 were trying to organise a democratic overthrow and *weren't* using burner phones, *that* would be the story. We've all seen Breaking Bad, right?

I dunno, their opsec was generally terrible. It's one of the things that made it clear they weren't antifa.

yossarian22c

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #187 on: December 01, 2021, 09:33:08 AM »
I wonder why Meadows decided to testify?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trumps-former-chief-staff-mark-181710196.html

Now lets hear all of the calls that he was a never Trumper and a RINO.

My guess would be Trump isn't going to pay his legal bills and he has no desire to join Steve Bannon in jail. Trump demands loyalty he doesn't give it.

TheDrake

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #188 on: December 01, 2021, 02:01:27 PM »
Their naivete was mind boggling. Their plan consisted of:

1. Stop the certification vote
2. ???
3. Trump is president

That's why they were fine documenting themselves in social media, let alone any nonsense about burner phones.

Wayward Son

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #189 on: December 10, 2021, 06:01:44 PM »
Well, one of the insurgents finally tells who made him do it.

Allen Hostetter said he was "manipulated into participating in the Capitol riot by Yale secret society “Skull and Bones” and other groups he said were covertly acting for the government."

Quote
In addition to Skull and Bones, San Clemente, California, resident Hostetter said “specific religious denominations known for secrecy such as Scientology and Mormonism” also helped covertly entice him into joining the assault at the behest of the federal government. Hostetter said he was targeted starting in March 2020 because he began organizing anti-lockdown protests during the pandemic, and that government agents “fashioned the lure to be as attractive as possible.”

As “proof,” Hostetter claimed those groups had a long history of colluding with the government and said one of his co-defendants was a Mormon.

Well, that nails it, doesn't it?  ;D

Yep, it was a government conspiracy that made him attack the Capitol, aided by Scientology and the Church of Latter Day Saints!  And we all know who was the head of the government at that time, right?  So he must be the one who is ultimately responsible!

Except he is the one Hostetter was trying to defend when he stormed the Capitol, so...  ???

Maybe someone can explain this to me.  ;D

msquared

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #190 on: December 10, 2021, 06:11:56 PM »
One name explains it all.

Soros.

msquared

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #191 on: December 14, 2021, 08:06:14 AM »
Even Fox and his own son knew that Trump should have responded to the attacks on the Capitol earlier and told his supporters to go home.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/destroying-his-legacy-fox-news-hosts-urged-white-house-to-act-during-jan-6-riot-committee-reveals-012345866.html

msquared

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #192 on: December 14, 2021, 08:32:05 AM »
Another Trump supporter from Jan 6 now realizes that Trump and his people lied to him about the stolen election.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-lied-capitol-rioter-robert-scott-palmer_n_61b7d6fae4b08ff579396d46

TheDeamon

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #193 on: December 14, 2021, 03:05:14 PM »
Even Fox and his own son knew that Trump should have responded to the attacks on the Capitol earlier and told his supporters to go home.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/destroying-his-legacy-fox-news-hosts-urged-white-house-to-act-during-jan-6-riot-committee-reveals-012345866.html

So basically, there wasn't a vast right-wing conspiracy to other-throw the government on January 6th. But instead there is a much smaller conspiracy to try to cover up how much of a goober Trump was being on the 6th of January.

msquared

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #194 on: December 14, 2021, 03:09:39 PM »
Except for the Power Point presentation about how to over throw the election.

TheDrake

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #195 on: December 14, 2021, 05:29:02 PM »
Facetiousness aside, however, the specific Jan 6th events were not a coordinated effort.

Quote
WASHINGTON, Aug 20 (Reuters) - The FBI has found scant evidence that the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol was the result of an organized plot to overturn the presidential election result, according to four current and former law enforcement officials.

Though federal officials have arrested more than 570 alleged participants, the FBI at this point believes the violence was not centrally coordinated by far-right groups or prominent supporters of then-President Donald Trump, according to the sources, who have been either directly involved in or briefed regularly on the wide-ranging investigations.

"Ninety to ninety-five percent of these are one-off cases," said a former senior law enforcement official with knowledge of the investigation. "Then you have five percent, maybe, of these militia groups that were more closely organized. But there was no grand scheme with Roger Stone and Alex Jones and all of these people to storm the Capitol and take hostages."

FBI investigators did find that cells of protesters, including followers of the far-right Oath Keepers and Proud Boys groups, had aimed to break into the Capitol. But they found no evidence that the groups had serious plans about what to do if they made it inside, the sources said.

FBI finds scant evidence U.S. Capitol attack was coordinated

Wayward Son

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #196 on: December 14, 2021, 05:33:10 PM »
Just because it wasn't coordinated doesn't mean it wasn't planned.  "Incite to riot" could have been the plan, with the expectation that the disruption would cause a delay which could be used to further the attempt to stop the transfer of power.

TheDrake

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #197 on: December 14, 2021, 05:42:28 PM »
There's also no evidence that any of the people involved in fomenting the crowd had a goal, expectation, or fear that they would break in the doors. That they were at a minimum indifferent to the potential for violence is quite clear, but that isn't a "conspiracy".

Do you really imagine a bunch of people sitting down in a conference room and saying, "what can we say that will get a whole bunch of people to break into the capitol and threaten Mike Pence's life?"

Wayward Son

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #198 on: December 14, 2021, 07:29:49 PM »
The only problem with what you said, Drake, is that what they said did inspire the crowd at the Capitol to chant "Hang Mike Pence" (or somesort), and for at least one person to construct a gallows for him.  ;D

So while breaking into the Capitol and taking Pence out may have been beyond their expectation, it was certainly not beyond their intent or what they actually accomplished by their words.

Perhaps all they wanted the crowd to do was bring the proceeding to a halt by any means possible, legal or illegal, they didn't care.  Any mayhem beyond that was just icing on the cake. ;)

TheDrake

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Re: The Jan 6 Commission
« Reply #199 on: December 14, 2021, 09:56:43 PM »
But inspiring the crowd with inflammatory language is a far cry from a conspiracy, which is the characterization under discussion. Otherwise we might hold all BLM leaders responsible as conspirators for destruction and mayhem that followed one of their speeches. We could call the leaders of the antiwar Vietnam movement responsible for a conspiracy to cause a riot. Any of these groups bear some measure of responsibility for not keeping their followers peaceful, but that doesn't make them conspirators.