Author Topic: So will you take the vaccine?  (Read 17041 times)

edgmatt

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2021, 10:03:18 PM »
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CDC isn't the source for what a vaccine is.  They had someone write up that article and the person did a poor job.

Whatever, I wasn't that hung up on it.  But really....the CDC, the Center for Disease Control....their definition of what a vaccine is shouldn't be taken seriously?

What else on their website should I take with a grain of salt....the effects of the "vaccine" perhaps?

TheDrake

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2021, 09:49:06 PM »
That page is trying to explain vaccines to dumb people. What did you want them to do, delve into the intricacies of mRNA vaccine production? They're like, maybe the mouth breathers can comprehend this. And yeah, they should have been either more precise or more vague, but let's come back to the original reason that you wanted to highlight that this "isn't a vaccine". Why was that again? It seems to be an important point for you, edg.

edgmatt

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2021, 02:16:32 PM »
Well, I was criticized in a different thread for not using "reliable sources" and whoever it was posted "From the CDC's website:"  with info from that site as a rebuttal for whatever argument I was making. ( I forget what thread it was).

So either the site is reliable or it isn't.  It's frustrating to have it used against me, but now be scorned for using it myself.  Hard to argue if the rules keep changing, right?

Whatever.  Call it what you want, that wasn't the crux of any part of my reasons for not getting the shot.  I even said "as an aside...".

edgmatt

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2021, 02:17:59 PM »
I don't like the snark either.  This site has lost its reputation for reasonable debate and instead has become just an echo chamber.   :(

LetterRip

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2021, 03:03:36 PM »
edgmatt,

as a lay person it is perfectly reasonable for you to think the CDC should have a good definition of a vaccine on their site.  It is their fault that it is a bad definition not yours. I'm not sure why they wrote such a poor definition - probably 'have the communications intern write something up' sort of deal, whoever was in charge must have had it as a low priority and thus it didn't get reviewed properly by someone with knowledge and experience in the topic.

If I were teaching an into to biology or related class and you cited them as a source for the definition of vaccine, I'd give you credit but also put a note that it was a poor definition and you might want to check a difference source for a better one.

I've emailed them a request to improve the definition, hopefully it will be updated.

msquared

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2021, 03:10:57 PM »
I wonder if the definition has been on the site like that for years.  I mean while the mRNA technology has been around for a while this is the first time it has been deployed. That description could be years old.  I know sometimes customers refer to pages on our business web site and we go "What page?" and it is some carry over page that we have totally forgotten about.

edgmatt

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2021, 04:22:08 PM »
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as a lay person it is perfectly reasonable for you to think the CDC should have a good definition of a vaccine on their site.

Condescension.  Can you stop that crap?  Please?  Jesus Christ.

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I'd give you credit but also put a note that it was a poor definition and you might want to check a difference source for a better one.

You could.....holy crap what a thought....provide one.  Right here, in this forum.   :o

That's called reasonable debate.  Edgmatt says this thing is not a vaccine and provides some reasons why, you say "yea, but look at this".  And then I say  "I see....why does the CDC have that definition?  I mean they are the CDC."  And you say "XYZ" or whatever.  And we have a conversation.

But that's not how it went, was it?  You acted shocked  that someone would call this shot not a vaccine, threw some insults, some condescension....what the F is that?  Look at msquared response above and maybe try to learn how to talk to people.

msquared

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2021, 07:25:19 PM »
I am with edgmatt.  I was surprised his link to the CDC did not have info on the Covid vaccine as a vaccine.  I do find it hard to believe that all of the scientist refering to it as a vaccine are using the wrong word. That I why my starting assumption, on seeing edgmatt's link, is that the CDC web site defining vaccine is old and out dated. Which surpises me since that is their main line of work.
I still think it is a vaccine, at least in every thing but the name (if the name is wrong).  It is used to prevent disease, and reduce the effect of a disease. Close enough for my book.

Edgmatt, just curious.  If the FDA comes out and gives the Covid shots its full approval, will that change your mind any?

Wayward Son

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2021, 08:32:03 PM »
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It doesn't make your system create antibodies and it doesn't make you immune to the virus.

You are wrong, edgematt.  You body creates antibodies to certain proteins that the virus has.  Same as it did when you got infected with the disease, although you body may have "chosen" a different protein.  (The body does not create antibodies to entire viruses, only portions of it.)

So getting the vaccine would help you immune system, in that it would probably add another protein to identify.

Check it out if you doubt me.

msquared

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2021, 08:48:28 PM »
I have heard that people who have had Covid, like edgmatt and me, do have a better over all response to the vaccine, as far as anti bodies go and maybe longer "immunity" to Covid.  I put immunity in quotes becuase it is not 100%, even though from what I have heard/read it is pretty close.

NobleHunter

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2021, 09:28:46 PM »
I know for Pzifer, and presumably the vaccines using the same tech, it grants sterilizing immunity. While that might not mean a 0% chance of getting the virus, it's essentially the same thing.

TheDrake

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2021, 09:18:39 AM »
The antibodies produced by the Moderna or Pfizer jab may or may not show up in an antibody test. If this becomes common knowledge, I fear this could lend to the perception that those injections do not produce antibodies.

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The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) discourages antibody testing for assessing immunity after getting the vaccine.

A vaccinated person is very likely to get a negative result from a serology test, even if the vaccine was successful and protective. That’s because different serology tests detect antibodies to different parts of the virus.

Some tests detect antibodies to the spike protein of the virus, which are produced in response to viral infection or the vaccine. Others detect antibodies to a different part of the virus called the nucleocapsid protein, which are produced in response to infection, but not by the current vaccines.

LetterRip

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2021, 01:05:12 PM »
I know for Pzifer, and presumably the vaccines using the same tech, it grants sterilizing immunity. While that might not mean a 0% chance of getting the virus, it's essentially the same thing.

Sterilizing immunity means that the antibodies can clear the virus to zero if the amount of virus never exceeds the immune capacity.  It is absolutely not the same thing at all.  If you get dosed by a super spreader there is a very real possibility it will exceed you immune capacity - certainly enough for you to get sick and spread the virus, possibly enough to completely permanently overwhelm your immune system and kill you.

LetterRip

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2021, 01:21:54 PM »
I wonder if the definition has been on the site like that for years.  I mean while the mRNA technology has been around for a while this is the first time it has been deployed. That description could be years old.  I know sometimes customers refer to pages on our business web site and we go "What page?" and it is some carry over page that we have totally forgotten about.

That is a good point, but the definition is poor even ignoring mRNA vaccines.  You can vaccinate against smallpox with cowpox for instance - vaccinating by introducing a virus of the same family but that infects a different species can potentially provide some protection (unfortunately it can also put you at higher risk due to a quirk of the immune system that if it already has antibodies that are 'close enough' it will avoid creating antibodies to new proteins from a new infection.  The problem is that weak affinity antibodies can result in being unable to clear the new virus.  This is partially why the elderly die more frequently of influenza - their body has been exposed to past influenzas that are close enough to suppress new antibody variants, but different enough to have poor affinity).

NobleHunter

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2021, 01:37:31 PM »
Sterilizing immunity means that the antibodies can clear the virus to zero if the amount of virus never exceeds the immune capacity.  It is absolutely not the same thing at all.  If you get dosed by a super spreader there is a very real possibility it will exceed you immune capacity - certainly enough for you to get sick and spread the virus, possibly enough to completely permanently overwhelm your immune system and kill you.

It's important not to overstress the possibility of getting sick despite the vaccine. There's a lot of noise about people getting sick, even dying, despite being vaccinated. While that sucks, it risks making people think there's no point in getting vaccinated. 

LetterRip

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #65 on: June 21, 2021, 01:58:23 PM »
But that's not how it went, was it?  You acted shocked  that someone would call this shot not a vaccine, threw some insults, some condescension....what the F is that?  Look at msquared response above and maybe try to learn how to talk to people.

It is shocking , it isn't a reasonable or rational position. They have been talked about being vaccines in every public forum for a very long time, and then you boldly assert that they aren't vaccines. You jumped from an incomplete definition of a vaccine to something that was never claimed in your source - that mRNA vaccines aren't also vaccines.

Here is a page at the CDC that explains about mRNA vaccines

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html

So the CDC does in fact consider mRNA vaccines to be vaccines.  So do you withdraw your statement that they aren't vaccines?

My responses haven't been condescending - you don't have an even grade school level of immunology.  Which is perfectly fine, people have different priorities in life - among mine have been medicine so I know this stuff in depth.  The problem is that you have been making assertions based on drawing conclusions based on your lack of knowledge and misunderstanding of simplified explanations on news programs and such.

As an analogy someone with little or no understanding of internal combustion vaguely recalls mixing oil with the gasoline for an old two stroke lawn mower insists that oil should be added with gasoline to the fuel tank of a jet airplane.  If you told that to a jet pilot they would be shocked, since that is a good way to cause an engine failure.

After the explanation of the source of knowledge - the pilot might feel sympathetic to the misunderstanding, but it would also make it clear that the person insisting on the mixing of oil with gasoline has zero understanding of engines.

As to not providing a link initially - I rarely do when responding on my phone.

LetterRip

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2021, 02:06:19 PM »
Sterilizing immunity means that the antibodies can clear the virus to zero if the amount of virus never exceeds the immune capacity.  It is absolutely not the same thing at all.  If you get dosed by a super spreader there is a very real possibility it will exceed you immune capacity - certainly enough for you to get sick and spread the virus, possibly enough to completely permanently overwhelm your immune system and kill you.

It's important not to overstress the possibility of getting sick despite the vaccine. There's a lot of noise about people getting sick, even dying, despite being vaccinated. While that sucks, it risks making people think there's no point in getting vaccinated.

Sure - the odds of severe covid go down drastically - a 94% reduction in hospitalization for elderly.

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p0428-vaccinated-adults-less-hospitalized.htm

Like seatbelts - offer almost perfect protection at low speed crashes (as the vaccine is essentially complete protection against low dosage exposures) and still excellent, but incomplete protection in a high speed crash (as the vaccine created antibodies can be overwhelmed in some cases of high dosage exposure).

Lloyd Perna

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #67 on: June 21, 2021, 05:10:26 PM »

Like seatbelts - offer almost perfect protection at low speed crashes (as the vaccine is essentially complete protection against low dosage exposures) and still excellent, but incomplete protection in a high speed crash (as the vaccine created antibodies can be overwhelmed in some cases of high dosage exposure).

Is there some way to put the level of risk you are referring to here in context?  If I'm vaccinated and going about my daily business, Working in an office with a mix of individual offices and cubicles. Eating at a restaurant a few times a week,  Living with 3 other vaccinated people, What are my chances of getting sick from covid?

LetterRip

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #68 on: June 21, 2021, 05:57:48 PM »
Unfortunately I'm not sure how it is quantifiable - I still plan to avoid any sort of indoor singing, exercise, or yelling type stuff - since I assume a super spreader + yelling or heavy breathing will be an extremely high dosage.

Lloyd Perna

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #69 on: June 21, 2021, 06:19:40 PM »
I understand that a super spreader is someone who is more infections than normal.  Supposedly because they produce more airborne droplets than most people right?  They also must have an active infection, correct?  Can someone who is fully vaccinated be a super spreader?  Is there really such a thing as an asymptomatic active covid infection?  I've tried researching these things but there is so much contradictory information on the internet its ridiculous.  What does the actual Science say?

Wayward Son

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #70 on: June 21, 2021, 06:43:15 PM »

Is there some way to put the level of risk you are referring to here in context?  If I'm vaccinated and going about my daily business, Working in an office with a mix of individual offices and cubicles. Eating at a restaurant a few times a week,  Living with 3 other vaccinated people, What are my chances of getting sick from covid?

Here's a rough calculation:

Herd immunity to Covid-19 is somewhere between 70 and 85 percent or so.  It will continue to spread until herd immunity is reached.  So, by waiting to be exposed, you have a roughly 70 to 85 percent chance of catching it.  Let's call it 80 percent.

About 30 percent of those who catch Covid-19 show symptoms.  So, if you catch it, you would have a 70 percent chance of "getting sick."  (This ignores any long-term consequences to your lungs or other organs, about which we are not sure.)  So that's about a 59.5 percent chance.

The odds of getting serious symptoms are about 1 in 6, or 16.66 percent, assuming you are not older or with a serious condition already.  So you have a 9.91 percent chance of requiring hospitalization like Trump.

About 2 percent of those who have caught Covid-19 have died from it.  In the U.S., it was about 1.8 percent.  But it has been going down.  Let's say it's 1 percent.  So the chances of you dying from Covid-19 would be around 1/2 percent, or one in twenty.

Now these are rough estimates, that can change due to various strains, access of medical help, etc.  But I think they are in the ballpark.

Now compare that to the chances of having an adverse reaction to the vaccines.  You have about a 0.051 percent chance of having an adverse reaction: 0.046 percent change of minor reaction (headaches, fatigue, dizziness, etc.) and a 0.0047 percent chance of a severe reaction, which includes death.

If you were betting on horses, which would you say is the safer bet? :)

Lloyd Perna

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #71 on: June 21, 2021, 06:52:06 PM »
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Herd immunity to Covid-19 is somewhere between 70 and 85 percent or so.  It will continue to spread until herd immunity is reached.  So, by waiting to be exposed, you have a roughly 70 to 85 percent chance of catching it.  Let's call it 80 percent.

I think you misunderstood my question.


Is there some way to put the level of risk you are referring to here in context? If I'm vaccinated and going about my daily business, Working in an office with a mix of individual offices and cubicles. Eating at a restaurant a few times a week,  Living with 3 other vaccinated people, What are my chances of getting sick from covid?


Wayward Son

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #72 on: June 21, 2021, 07:37:43 PM »
Oops.  :-[  Sorry, I should have read more carefully.

Here is an article that might help.  Apparently, it is very low.

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A small number of Americans have been infected with the coronavirus after getting the COVID-19 vaccine. Called “breakthrough cases,” they have been making headlines recently, and they raise a question: What are your chances of getting COVID-19 if you are fully vaccinated?

The answer, studies suggest, is very low — probably just a fraction of a percentage point.

And this is just getting the virus.  Hospitalizations are lower still.

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Of the total 9,245 breakthrough cases reported to the CDC as of April 26, 2021, 835 resulted in hospitalization, federal data show. That’s out of more than 95 million Americans who had been vaccinated at that point.

So that's about 0.0097 percent of being infected by the virus once you are innoculated, and 0.00088 percent chance of requiring hospitalization.

You will be susceptible until herd immunity is achieved.  But, of course, the chances of you getting it depends on how soon your area reaches herd immunity, the percentage of the unvaccinated in your area, how fast the virus is spreading, how often you meet other people, etc.

Ultimately, probably not worth worrying about. :)

LetterRip

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #73 on: June 21, 2021, 07:44:52 PM »
I understand that a super spreader is someone who is more infections than normal.  Supposedly because they produce more airborne droplets than most people right?  They also must have an active infection, correct?  Can someone who is fully vaccinated be a super spreader?  Is there really such a thing as an asymptomatic active covid infection?  I've tried researching these things but there is so much contradictory information on the internet its ridiculous.  What does the actual Science say?

Ugh wrote a nice explanation and phone crashed.  Short version super spreaders expel about 10x virus as average infected individuals.

exercise singing and yelling increase amount exhaled 5x.
exercise singing and yelling increase amount inhaled 5x.

So potentially 250x exposure.

It is unknown if there is true asymptomatic - most claims of such appear to be presymptomatic , pausisymptomatic (has symptoms but doesn't think of them as such enough to mention them when asked), or false positives.


LetterRip

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #74 on: June 21, 2021, 07:51:09 PM »
Wayward I think you are misreading the math and overestimating the protection.  You can't say N people were vaccinated M caught it - so risk reduxtion is N/M.

The vast majority of M wouldn't have caught it over that time period whether vaccinated or not.  Most people vaccinated haven't caught Covid over the past year prior to vaccination - you have to use odds ratios and additinal adjusting for regional and behavioral risk etc.

edgmatt

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #75 on: June 21, 2021, 10:30:17 PM »
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My responses haven't been condescending - you don't have an even grade school level of immunology.

Ironic.

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They have been talked about being vaccines in every public forum for a very long time, and then you boldly assert that they aren't vaccines. You jumped from an incomplete definition of a vaccine to something that was never claimed in your source - that mRNA vaccines aren't also vaccines.

I boldly asserted it because the people in charge of these sorts of things, have the definition on their website.  Wtf conclusion am I supposed to draw?  Again, all you have to do is have a bleeping conversation about it.  That's the POINT of having a discussion.

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it isn't a reasonable or rational position.

It's perfectly reasonable and perfectly rational, even if it's misinformed.  Stop being a prick.

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Here is a page at the CDC that explains about mRNA vaccines

So YOUR infro from the CDC is legit, but MY info from the VERY SAME SITE should be ignored, cause it's wrong.   :P

I get it.  You're an expert.  Can you tone down the arrogance, for maybe a few paragraphs, and just inform?  Why is that so difficult?

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As an analogy someone with little or no understanding of internal combustion vaguely recalls mixing oil with the gasoline for an old two stroke lawn mower insists that oil should be added with gasoline to the fuel tank of a jet airplane.  If you told that to a jet pilot they would be shocked, since that is a good way to cause an engine failure.

What?  This wasn't something I "vaguely recalled".  ***ITS ON THE WEBSITE*** How the hell can you stand there with a straight face and tell me that on ONE page of their website, all information is accurate, but then on another page its completely wrong......and then talk like I'm supposed to be able to see the obvious difference....all while insisting I have zero knowledge on the subject. 

Holy crap.  This was the part of my multi-page response to the question "are you getting the vaccine?" that you grabbed on to?  Remind me to not do "asides" anymore.  What a nightmare.

edgmatt

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #76 on: June 21, 2021, 10:32:45 PM »
The only thing I've learned here is:  Don't trust the CDC.

Fenring

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #77 on: June 21, 2021, 11:10:15 PM »
The only thing I've learned here is:  Don't trust the CDC.

I'll stay out of the science side of things, but it seems to me your position is something like "I ought to be able to read a simple page on the CDC website and understand whether something is a vaccine or not." Well, I'm not sure how it's reasonable to take that position. Knowing whether something is a vaccine really requires in-depth knowledge of the biochem, and there is really no substitute. That's why I frequently tell people that they shouldn't ever expect to be able to track the technical side of a subject by doing 'a little reading.' It ends up being a major problem in the way we interact with mass media. After all, the republican principle relies to a moderate extent on having a well-informed public. That then seems to presuppose that there's a mechanism in place by which the public can become reasonably informed. But as it turns out there are no mechanisms, only money-making machines who have learned that spin is worth more than the other options. I don't see a way around this in an area like covid knowledge other than to just learn a lot about the science. Maybe LR was saying something like this in a much more curt way. But I do not find it reasonable in the slightest to assume that definitive statements about medical technology can be gleaned by reading a short description.

cherrypoptart

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #78 on: June 21, 2021, 11:24:37 PM »
I don't want to be anti-vaxx but I do believe in transparency and the guy on here apparently had a hand in inventing mRNA technology so he and this group have some interesting things to say. He's pretty measured even if the others go off a bit more but still interesting. In any case, we can see here with these smart people where some of the hesitancy is coming from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du2wm5nhTXY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMxuNvVgxlU

Now I don't want to talk anyone out of getting a Covid vaccine but on the other hand I'd be hesitant to try to persuade someone to get one either just because there are still a lot of unknowns. It reminds me a bit of giving someone investment advice, like you should buy this stock or sell this one if you own it, or you should buy gold or now is the time to sell, or get into crypto or it's about to crash so you should sell it all. That's just so dangerous because you don't really know what's going to happen. Nobody does. So maybe it's best to let people make up their own minds.

The guy made a good point though about how right now with Covid and the vaccines we're pretty much in a fog of war moment during which the determination is often made that the benefits outweigh the risks and often times years later we just wish we'd known then what we know now.

One other thing is that it's mentioned that this is gene therapy more than it is a vaccine in a traditional sense.

I still think, and it might be better to put it as hope, that the vaccines are doing much more good than harm. But as with investing, and with a lot of things, if someone accused me of being a Jon Snow I couldn't disagree: "You know nothing."

Maybe it's even worse though knowing so little that you think you know something so you are more dangerous because of hubris. Hopefully that's not our government right now.

fizz

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #79 on: June 22, 2021, 06:36:09 AM »
And I just got my EU Digital Covid Certificate, that will allow me to cross borders, participate to events and generally go around almost like the before-time.
Even if they are going to take away the mandatory mask when outdoors, and even if vaccinated, just in case I'm going on avoiding too crowded spaces and keeping distancing whenever possible, but it will still be a relief. With a non-italian partner, it's useful having an easier way to cross borders to be able to go visiting relatives, and going on vacation.
I hope some screwy variants (or stupid humans) will not come to ruin things for everybody yet again.

TheDrake

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #80 on: June 22, 2021, 09:26:46 AM »
The only thing I've learned here is:  Don't trust the CDC.

No one should trust any source blindly. I've had the wrong numbers in some of my work, or a faulty explanation. It doesn't mean I can't be trusted in the sense that anything I do should be viewed with suspicion. If I say something that doesn't ring true to someone, I would expect them to examine my premises and find alternate sources of information.

WHO has a better definition.

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Vaccination is the administration of agent-specific, but safe, antigenic components that in vaccinated individuals can induce protective immunity against the corresponding infectious agent.

And a very thorough breakdown from Winchester Hospital

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The concept behind vaccines is to stimulate an antibody memory response without producing an actual illness. When this happens, you get the immunity without getting sick. A vaccine must contain at least one antigen from the bacteria or virus in order to get a response.

There are several ways an antigen can be used:

Attenuated live viruses—Weakened forms of a live virus. They do not cause illness, but will create an immune response. Examples include the MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) and chickenpox vaccines.
Inactivated viruses—A version of the virus that has been killed. Although the virus is dead, antibodies will still be produced. Examples include the polio vaccine.
Recombinant—Viruses are made in a lab through genetic engineering. This way, a specific gene can be reproduced. The human papillomavirus (HPV) has several strains. The HPV vaccine can be tailored to protect against strains that cause cervical cancer.
Conjugate—Bacteria and virus antigens may have a polysaccharide coating, a sugar-like substance to protect it. Conjugate vaccines work around the disguise to recognize the bacteria. The Hib vaccine is an example of a conjugate.
Subunit—Uses only the antigens that stimulate an immune response. The flu shot is a subunit vaccine.
Toxiod—Inactivated versions of bacterial toxins are used to make the immunity. Examples include the tetanus and diphtheria vaccines.

Nobody would be going on about it still if you'd just accept CDC can make a mistake, instead of trying to use their lousy definition to throw shade over every other piece of information they provide.

yossarian22c

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #81 on: June 22, 2021, 12:07:30 PM »
The only thing I've learned here is:  Don't trust the CDC.

Seems like the wrong lesson.

The Delta (India) variant is spreading. Is is more contagious and seems to cause more severe disease than the original strain. Getting vaccinated would better protect you against reinfection. And if you really don't like mRNA vaccines you could find a place that offers the J&J vaccine.

Wayward Son

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #82 on: June 22, 2021, 12:54:45 PM »
Wayward I think you are misreading the math and overestimating the protection.  You can't say N people were vaccinated M caught it - so risk reduction is N/M.

The vast majority of M wouldn't have caught it over that time period whether vaccinated or not.  Most people vaccinated haven't caught Covid over the past year prior to vaccination - you have to use odds ratios and additional adjusting for regional and behavioral risk etc.

Yes, this was a very rough estimate.  And I am not an epidemiological expert by any means. :)

However, I do wonder how far off such back-of-the-napkin calculations could be.  Even if it were off by two or three orders of  magnitudes, they would still be very small numbers.

Of course, that doesn't mean one shouldn't be cautious.  As Bill Bryson once said about the chances of being eaten by a bear while hiking the Appalachian Trail:
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Black bears rarely attack. But here’s the thing. Sometimes they do. All bears are agile, cunning and immensely strong, and they are always hungry. If they want to kill you and eat you, they can, and pretty much whenever they want. That doesn’t happen often, but--and here is the absolutely salient point--once would be enough.

LetterRip

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #83 on: June 22, 2021, 07:19:22 PM »
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My responses haven't been condescending - you don't have an even grade school level of immunology.

Ironic.

It isn't condescending to acurately describe your level of knowledge.  8th grade biology for the past 10-20 years should provide the average individual a greater knowledge of immunology than you've expressed.  I suspect you went through school quite a bit further back in time when immunology wasn't covered in biology classses essentially at all.

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I boldly asserted it because the people in charge of these sorts of things, have the definition on their website.

It didn't say 'nothing except this lay level description meets the definition of vaccine' - that was what you pulled out of your own imagination.  If a source oversimplifies or doesn't cover all cases that doesn't lead to your conclusion.

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Wtf conclusion am I supposed to draw?  Again, all you have to do is have a bleeping conversation about it.  That's the POINT of having a discussion.

You were making an assertion.  That is quite different from 'having a discussion' - a discussion would be - 'hey the moderna and Pfiser mRNA vaccines don't seem to match the description on this site'.  An assertion is a factual claim.

If you look at my initial response. I simply asked for your source and explained why they do meet that definition.

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It's perfectly reasonable and perfectly rational, even if it's misinformed.  Stop being a prick.

Remove the log from your own eye.  No - it wasn't reasonable or rational.  You know little or nothing about the topic and were making an assertion not in the source you were relying on for your claim.

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So YOUR infro from the CDC is legit, but MY info from the VERY SAME SITE should be ignored, cause it's wrong.   :P

So 'wrong' means factually incorrect information.  The page wasn't wrong, it was 'dated' or 'incomplete'.  All things that meet the description given on that page are vaccines.

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I get it.  You're an expert.  Can you tone down the arrogance, for maybe a few paragraphs, and just inform?  Why is that so difficult?

Look at my first couple or responses, your the one who has adopted an attitude.

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What?  This wasn't something I "vaguely recalled".  ***ITS ON THE WEBSITE*** How the hell can you stand there with a straight face and tell me that on ONE page of their website, all information is accurate, but then on another page its completely wrong......and then talk like I'm supposed to be able to see the obvious difference....all while insisting I have zero knowledge on the subject.

Okay, so slight change in my analogy.  Instead you 'read in the 2 stroke engine manual you need to add oil to the gasoline'.  Same type of situation.  You are taking information and extrapolating without the benefit of knowledge to make such extrapolation. 

The page isn't wrong, it is incomplete.  Incomplete isn't the same as wrong.  I explicitly stated you didn't have the knowledge to know it was incomplete. I even emailed the CDC to request that they update the page.

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Holy crap.  This was the part of my multi-page response to the question "are you getting the vaccine?" that you grabbed on to?  Remind me to not do "asides" anymore.  What a nightmare.

Ok... you are the one who have made a big deal and got upset when you were corrected.  My initial response to you was purely to ask what your source was for the claim, and to offer the correct information.

Fenring

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #84 on: June 22, 2021, 07:47:49 PM »
8th grade biology for the past 10-20 years should provide the average individual a greater knowledge of immunology than you've expressed.

FWIW, looking back I think a great deal that we were taught in 10th grade biology was flat-out wrong. Not about where the stomach is or anything like that, but 'facts' about genetics and inheritance, about how viruses and bacteria work, and about how digestion works. Things like that. I think the information we were given was actually incorrect, not just dated. Personally I blame this on the school textbook phenomenon. Just reading Feynman's take on how the textbook industry works was an eye-opener. And it's not like your average high school bio teacher actually has a PhD, or often even a masters. So they don't know any better.

alai

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #85 on: July 29, 2021, 09:28:53 AM »
Hi all.   First-time poster, long-time SF reader (and person in Card Recovery) here.  Please be gentle with me. :)  Just been looking at your abortion thread, and feel this may be a necessary request...

I wonder if the definition has been on the site like that for years.  I mean while the mRNA technology has been around for a while this is the first time it has been deployed. That description could be years old.  I know sometimes customers refer to pages on our business web site and we go "What page?" and it is some carry over page that we have totally forgotten about.
Exactly so:  as it says, bottom right of the page, "Page last reviewed: March 14, 2012"

So 'wrong' means factually incorrect information.  The page wasn't wrong, it was 'dated' or 'incomplete'.  All things that meet the description given on that page are vaccines.
Right, but it's not written as a list of examples of things that are vaccines, it's written as a characterisation of the properties of vaccines, and it's one that's insufficiently broad.  Not just by failing to future-proof for then-nonexistent mRNA vaccines, but also viral vector vaccines, and indeed the original vaccine -- using cowpox (whence the term vaccine, after all!) to inoculate against smallpox, a different species of virus.

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The page isn't wrong, it is incomplete.  Incomplete isn't the same as wrong.  I explicitly stated you didn't have the knowledge to know it was incomplete. I even emailed the CDC to request that they update the page.
I think it's wrong.  Definitions should read like definitions, lists of examples should read like lists of definitions, and to confuse the two is to confuse the reader.  I've also emailed (well, webformed) the CDC with the same complaint.  To be fair, I imagine they might be a little busy at the moment, not to mention being poor starvling overworked US government employees at the best of times.

I also dislike the run-on paragraph "slow-rolling" style of the opening paragraph.  It later mentions subunit vaccines -- ("Some vaccines contain only a part of the disease germ") but in a way that's a contradictory afterthought to the first sentence.  But it does inch us slightly closer to the way Pfizer and Moderna work;  they're not subunit vaccines as such, but they achieve that effect indirectly.  mRNA provides the biochemical plans to make spike proteins, the spike proteins produce an immune response similar to infection with the disease.  It's the subunit vaccine "home game" for cells to play by themselves.

ObOnTopic:  two AstraZenecas in this guy.

msquared

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #86 on: July 29, 2021, 09:34:26 AM »
Alai

Welcome to Ornery.  You are wrong.

PS: That used to be the traditional greeting to new members, way back in last century.  Go Dragon Army.

Fenring

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #87 on: July 29, 2021, 10:30:36 AM »
Hello alai!

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Go Dragon Army.

Alai wasn't even in Dragon Army!

PS - I intend to start an Ender series thread as soon as I've gotten a little further through the series. I'm halfway through Shadow of the Giant right now.

LetterRip

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #88 on: July 29, 2021, 11:24:15 AM »
Right, but it's not written as a list of examples of things that are vaccines, it's written as a characterisation of the properties of vaccines, and it's one that's insufficiently broad.

And it is an oversimplification with links that go into more depth.  I think the phrase 'a part of the disease germ' - actually is close enough for cowpox (which has overlapping protein structures), viral vector vaccines (which integrate parts of the original virus) and mRNA (which trigger synthesis of some protein of the original virus).  Would I prefer a bit more precision? Sure. Is claiming the page is 'wrong' accurate? No.

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I think it's wrong.  Definitions should read like definitions

I think you are mischaracterizing it when referring to it as a definition.  It clearly is not intended to be definitional - it is trying to give the basic idea of what a vaccine is and does for a lay audience.

This type of simplification is common in all scientific and technological fields and thus claiming a simplified explanation is wrong is wrong.  It is a simplification that trades off completeness for ease of comprehension.

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But it does inch us slightly closer to the way Pfizer and Moderna work;  they're not subunit vaccines as such, but they achieve that effect indirectly.  mRNA provides the biochemical plans to make spike proteins, the spike proteins produce an immune response similar to infection with the disease.  It's the subunit vaccine "home game" for cells to play by themselves.

Yeppers.

LetterRip

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #89 on: July 29, 2021, 11:25:41 AM »
Right, but it's not written as a list of examples of things that are vaccines, it's written as a characterisation of the properties of vaccines, and it's one that's insufficiently broad.

And it is an oversimplification with links that go into more depth.  I think the phrase 'a part of the disease germ' - actually is close enough for cowpox (which has overlapping protein structures), viral vector vaccines (which integrate parts of the original virus) and mRNA (which trigger synthesis of some protein of the original virus).  Would I prefer a bit more precision? Sure. Is claiming the page is 'wrong' accurate? No.

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I think it's wrong.  Definitions should read like definitions

I think you are mischaracterizing it when referring to it as a definition.  It clearly is not intended to be definitional - it is trying to give the basic idea of what a vaccine is and does for a lay audience.

This type of simplification is common in all scientific and technological fields when communicating to lay persons, and thus claiming a simplified explanation is wrong is wrong.  It is a simplification that trades off completeness for ease of comprehension.

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But it does inch us slightly closer to the way Pfizer and Moderna work;  they're not subunit vaccines as such, but they achieve that effect indirectly.  mRNA provides the biochemical plans to make spike proteins, the spike proteins produce an immune response similar to infection with the disease.  It's the subunit vaccine "home game" for cells to play by themselves.

Yeppers.

alai

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #90 on: July 29, 2021, 11:49:26 AM »
And it is an oversimplification with links that go into more depth.
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Oversimplifications are a species of wrong.  Now we're just haggling about the exact taxonomy! :)

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I think the phrase 'a part of the disease germ' - actually is close enough for cowpox (which has overlapping protein structures), viral vector vaccines (which integrate parts of the original virus) and mRNA (which trigger synthesis of some protein of the original virus).
Eeeee-ummmm-errrrrr-*waggles hand*-eeeeerrmmm...  Yehhhh, kinda-sorta.  Though that that's itself thrown in the Contradiction Coda at the end of the para, such that the citing poster, seemed manage to miss it entirely, doesn't help matters.  (If they'd said "same germs or parts of" in the first place, that'd have been better in that respect.)

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I think you are mischaracterizing it when referring to it as a definition.  It clearly is not intended to be definitional - it is trying to give the basic idea of what a vaccine is and does for a lay audience.
It's a declarative statement that purports to characterise vaccines.  "Vaccines contain the same germs that cause disease."  Not "some vaccines" (though hint that's the case by the subsequent 'And some are this other thing!' plot twist), not "may", not "think of it as if".  It's a propositional statement with a truth value -- and that truth value is not, sadly, 'true'.  You can provide informal definitions for, and make informal declarative statements to a lay audience, without wandering this far from the factually accurate.

Anyhoo, I do hope it gets fixed -- or tightened up a little, if you insist.  If it hasn't been quotemined by anti-vaxers yet, I'm sure it will be soon.  "See, I told you The Pfizer isn't a vaccine!  It's actually an [insert conspiracy theory of choice here]."

TheDrake

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #91 on: July 29, 2021, 12:39:33 PM »
Communication of complex subjects to non experts requires simplification that by definition requires inaccuracy, does it not? Would the public be better served with several paragraphs of details on the different types of inoculation?

alai

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #92 on: July 29, 2021, 01:07:37 PM »
Oops, apologies all, didn't notice I'd messed up the formatting, and apparently now can't edit it.  The joys of the endless varieties and infinite configurations of bbcode software.

Communication of complex subjects to non experts requires simplification that by definition requires inaccuracy, does it not? Would the public be better served with several paragraphs of details on the different types of inoculation?
It often requires imprecision, but hopefully not lack of accuracy.  If anything the problem here is getting into too much detail too quickly, rather than stating general principles.  "They're wee yokes that produce an immune response to a disease without infecting you with it.  Some include the same germs that cause illness, but killed or weakened; some contain only parts of the disease germs."  Punchy enough for you?   8)

Though poorly as the US government reputedly pay their minions, they pay me even less to craft wordings for me, so having submitted by whine to them, I'll leave it to the pros.  Of course they're free to use the above, though they might want to workshop out some of the more informal Hiberno-English usage.