Author Topic: politician liability if they go directly opposite public health recommendations?  (Read 4282 times)

LetterRip

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No health expert could possibly go along with Desantis ordering that schools that require masking could lose funding.  This is clearly an completely against public health and will definitely result in deaths.

He has made similar threats against businesses requiring masks or in the case of cruises vaccinations.

Should Desantis be subject to charges of manslaughter/murder?  The deaths will be a direct result of his callous disregard for life - with the only possible motive of personal gain by pandering to his base.

Fenring

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It seems to be on the one hand problematic that a governor can act by fiat contrary to all reason, and only subject to correction at the next election. But on the other hand it's also problematic to consider that if the governor legally must create regulation that corresponds with some arbitrary health directive (it would have to be decided which medical organization gets the last word on what is 'correct' procedure) then that actually means, in effect, whoever is running that medical organization gets to make laws despite being an unelected official. So that's dicey to me. Suing a governor for not doing what an unelected person says strikes me as being a suboptimal situation. Might as well run government on a guild system at that point, right? The medical guild decides medical public policy, the civil engineer society makes the laws about infrastructure, etc. Not even saying that would be horrible (anarcho-syndicalism is basically this, iirc) if it would work, just that it might not work under the current system.

Wayward Son

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It's one thing to have a governor bow to a medical organization.

It's another when every major medical organization agrees on a strategy, and the governor blows them all off.

If there was a controversy among the responsible medical organizations (the ones where people turn to for known threats, like Ebola or measles), then I could see a governor making the final decision.  But when they all agree, then the governor bears full responsibility for ignoring all the expert advice, including any resulting deaths.

LetterRip

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There is a difference between failure to implement a policy and forcing others to not implement policies.

I'd think him stupid and evil if he simply refused to implement any recommendations - but he is actively forcing businesses and schools to not do so.

Fenring

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There is a difference between failure to implement a policy and forcing others to not implement policies.

I'd think him stupid and evil if he simply refused to implement any recommendations - but he is actively forcing businesses and schools to not do so.

I'm not endorsing this particular choice of his. But in theory one can imagine a scenario where every medical organization could be in agreement that something would be a benefit to public health - even save lives - and a wise ruler would know better than all of them that such an act would be unconstitutional; or perhaps that it would have collateral effects that are outside of the purview of the medical field. Not saying that's actually the case here, but if he's wrong perhaps it's sufficient to just say that, rather than to suggest additionally that he's wrong because he went against experts, and should be sued for it. I think many leaders have been wrong about things that cost far more loss of life than this might, and apparently no one is allowed to sue them. However I am sympathetic with the desire to bust through the faceless system in which no one can ever be held accountable for anything.

cherrypoptart

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I expect this comment will be exceedingly unpopular but DeSantis is doing the same thing with masks that Biden is doing with the border except there isn't an actual law about masks like there is about facilitating illegal immigration. Both are against the science behind fighting a pandemic. I don't see how you can hold DeSantis accountable except during the next election when he isn't breaking any laws especially when Biden gets a pass while breaking our immigration laws by helping illegals carry out a mass migration and spread Covid including the lambda variant while they do it.

Whataboutism at it's finest but one guy is not breaking any laws while the other is. First we'd need a law about masks like we have a law about immigration and then we could talk about holding DeSantis criminally responsible or civilly liable.

Also if he is liable especially with regard to masks then so are Biden and the CDC for what they just did with their great unmasking which caused a surge in Covid cases, sickness, hospitalization, and death. Cases were coming down and things were starting to come under control. We've got more vaccinations then ever and yet more cases. If it weren't for the reckless disregard for science as well as human life displayed by the White House and the CDC with their political decision about masks our country would be in a much better place right now.

LetterRip

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I expect this comment will be exceedingly unpopular but DeSantis is doing the same thing with masks that Biden is doing with the border

Well it is complete and absolute BS, you get these fantasy ideas in your head and it doesn't matter how screwed up and unrelated to reality they are - you are certain that they are important.

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Both are against the science behind fighting a pandemic.

Biden has been 100% following the science in the pandemic.  There is zero reason to think that increasing numbers of border patrols, etc. would have any effect on the pandemic.  99%+ of spread is between unmasked unvaccinated americans.

https://apnews.com/article/public-health-mexico-health-coronavirus-pandemic-immigration-74eba36e8cd2f842987c0e6e57bcfae1

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I don't see how you can hold DeSantis accountable except during the next election when he isn't breaking any laws especially when Biden gets a pass while breaking our immigration laws by helping illegals carry out a mass migration and spread Covid including the lambda variant while they do it.

Biden hasn't broken a single law.  He has been following the law about asylum seekers - which are not illegal immigrants.  Once an asylum seekers status has been adjudicated and if they are refused asylum status, then they can be required to leave the country and if they stay they are then within the US illegally.


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Whataboutism at it's finest but one guy is not breaking any laws while the other is. First we'd need a law about masks like we have a law about immigration and then we could talk about holding DeSantis criminally responsible or civilly liable.

It isn't whataboutism - it is simply you asserting falsehoods.

cherrypoptart

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https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-promises-appeal-immigration-ruling-urges-congress-act-2021-07-17/

A U.S. District judge ruled DACA illegal. The Dreamers aren't going through the asylum process. This whole asylum charade is a fraud anyway, the vast majority of it. Most are ineligible and are just economic migrants which is fine, not saying they aren't good people, but they don't meet the criteria for asylum and everyone knows it so just setting them free in America to live their life for a few years and establish roots so they can stay anyway which is what the Democrats are blatantly and proudly doing means nobody is buying the argument that the laws aren't being broken. And I mean nobody. When the laws are bad it's a good thing when they are broken. That should be the Democrats' catchphrase. Maybe it already is.

But there is no need to get bogged down.

Even if immigration laws aren't being broken just like mask laws aren't being broken if DeSantis should be held liable for spreading disease then so should Biden.

TheDrake

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Border border border border, *squawk*, border, border!

msquared

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Cherry

Most are ineligible and are just economic migrants which is fine, not saying they aren't good people,

Don't let Trump hear you say that. Remember they are all drug dealers, robbers, murderers and rapists.

LetterRip

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https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-promises-appeal-immigration-ruling-urges-congress-act-2021-07-17/

A U.S. District judge ruled DACA illegal.

Supreme Court ruled that Trump couldn't end it without justification - seems unlikely that they will find in favor of this judge's finding of it being unconstitutional.

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The Dreamers aren't going through the asylum process.

And per the judges order, no new applicants will be processed till has gone through appeals and all of those currently processed status will remain.  So Biden isn't doing anything illegal.

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This whole asylum charade is a fraud anyway, the vast majority of it.

I think many seekers might be dubious but are definitely plausible - we have enacted policies to destabilize South and Central America and those policies have had consequences.  It was Republicans who decided that people would have to enter the country to seek asylum.  If we switched to allowing asylum seeking at embassies, like every other country does - it would eliminate the vast majority of border crossings for the purpose of asylum application.  So if you don't like the current state of things - blame the party responsible - Republicans.

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Most are ineligible and are just economic migrants which is fine, not saying they aren't good people, but they don't meet the criteria for asylum and everyone knows it so just setting them free in America to live their life for a few years and establish roots so they can stay anyway which is what the Democrats are blatantly and proudly doing means nobody is buying the argument that the laws aren't being broken.

It isn't illegal to seek asylum.  Again, the Republicans could change the law to allow asylum seekers to apply at US embassies.  We have treaties that we are required to allow asylum applications.  There are treaties about the treatment of asylum seekers. The law is simply being followed.

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And I mean nobody. When the laws are bad it's a good thing when they are broken. That should be the Democrats' catchphrase. Maybe it already is.

The laws aren't being broken, they are being adhered to as written.

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Even if immigration laws aren't being broken just like mask laws aren't being broken if DeSantis should be held liable for spreading disease then so should Biden.

First all intercepted unlawful immigrants and asylum seekers are probably tested and treated for Covid.  So there is little or no chance that they are a source of the spread of Covid  So your reasoning is bizzare.

Secondly DeSantis is arguably engaging in behaviors that are a 'callous disregard' for life and thus any deaths as a result may potentially be prosecuted under manslaughter or murder 2.

TheDrake

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Our borders could be sealed with a forcefield and there's more than enough infection to wash back and forth from sea to shining sea.

cherrypoptart

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"First all intercepted unlawful immigrants and asylum seekers are probably tested and treated for Covid."

They are tested and if positive are released straight into communities across the country at which point they walk into a Whataburger unvaccinated, without masks, coughing and sneezing every which way without even covering their mouths or ordering for take-away.

Equivalizing, both sides are all to eager to endanger public safety if it means not giving up an ounce of their perceived political power, many Republicans on masks and all Democrats on their open borders.

TheDrake

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Is that better or worse than a lifelong resident of Texas who tests positive, is told to quarantine, and goes to whataburger?

yossarian22c

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"First all intercepted unlawful immigrants and asylum seekers are probably tested and treated for Covid."

They are tested and if positive are released straight into communities across the country at which point they walk into a Whataburger unvaccinated, without masks, coughing and sneezing every which way without even covering their mouths or ordering for take-away.

Equivalizing, both sides are all to eager to endanger public safety if it means not giving up an ounce of their perceived political power, many Republicans on masks and all Democrats on their open borders.

All the unlawfuls are immediately sent back across the border. Its one of the reasons why crossings are up so much, we're catching people driving them back to the border and releasing them into Mexico to try again the next day. The border is still relatively closed, Biden is making an attempt to increase the speed of asylum cases and trying (but maybe not succeeding) to treat unaccompanied minors better.

Face it, people walking up from Mexico aren't driving the pandemic. They aren't even a significant factor. Pretending like Biden's border policy, which is largely unchanged from Trump's, has the same pandemic effect as Republicans trying to pass laws to prevent businesses and schools from requiring masks or vaccines is mind numbingly naive.

cherrypoptart

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Even if that were true, and there is nothing in the science to suggest it, but even if so it's a worldwide pandemic so encouraging mass migrations like the one our government is encouraging is spreading the pandemic all throughout Latin America as these people travel the long, hard, slow way through their countries and across two continents providing the virus with a new superspreader event in every new town and city they stop at along the way.

But I'll agree that DeSantis is making a huge mistake on masks and here is another one:

https://www.mediaite.com/news/arkansas-republican-governor-admits-mistake-on-mask-mandates-as-cases-soar-i-wish-that-had-not-become-law/

"With Covid-19 cases surging in his state, Gov. Asa Hutchinson (R-AR) wishes he could take back the ban on local mask mandates that he signed into law.

The governor indicated his about-face at a briefing on Tuesday. A reporter questioned Hutchinson on the legislation he signed in late April forbidding local officials from implementing mandates.

“Do you regret it now?” The reporter asked, of Hutchinson signing. “Was it a bad decision?”

Hutchinson cited the state’s then-improving Covid outlook, as well as a likely override from the state legislature, as his reasons for signing the mask mandate ban. Now, however, he has reversed course.

“Everything has changed now,” Hutchinson said. “And yes in hindsight, I wish that had not become law. But it is the law. And the only chance we have is either to amend it or for the court to say that it has an unconstitutional foundation.”

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These people actually made it illegal for them to now do the right thing and provide for public safety. I don't see how it gets more short sighted. They literally shot themselves in the foot and by literally of course I mean figuratively but with emphasis. DeSantis can't just look around and learn something? Asa can't give him a friendly call and warning? These are the kinds of hair-brained decisions that keep setting us back.

Going back to the original question, how do you hold a politician liable for jeopardizing public safety when the politician passed a law that mandates public safety be jeopardized? Passing laws would be a crime in itself then in some cases like these ones.

Wayward Son

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Going back to the original question, how do you hold a politician liable for jeopardizing public safety when the politician passed a law that mandates public safety be jeopardized? Passing laws would be a crime in itself then in some cases like these ones.

I think it would similar to reckless endangerment.  If DeSantis, et al, knew their laws were going to kill people and knew their arguments for the laws were bogus, then I could see them being held liable.  Proving that would be problematic, but it is done for reckless endangerment cases in the civilian world all the time.  I don't see why the same standards shouldn't (or couldn't) apply to politicians.

msquared

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Just remember the famous battle cry  "Give me Liberty or Give me Death".

Wayward Son

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Don't forget, "...and also My Parents, and My Siblings, and My Wife, and My Children, and My Friends, and their Families, and the Various Strangers I Will Pass By While Going About My Business as Usual."

It was amazing that Patrick Henry was able to say all that in one breath.  :D

yossarian22c

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Even if that were true, and there is nothing in the science to suggest it, but even if so it's a worldwide pandemic so encouraging mass migrations like the one our government is encouraging is spreading the pandemic all throughout Latin America as these people travel the long, hard, slow way through their countries and across two continents providing the virus with a new superspreader event in every new town and city they stop at along the way.
...

It is true. The epidemic spread doesn't and hasn't centered around unlawful border crossings. Look at the original outbreaks, NYC via Europe, Alpha again through international travel hubs in the Northeast and West. Delta from India got a foothold in California and spread east. Are you seeing a trend here? None of these first started in El Paso and then spread throughout the country. If the migrants were a significant source we would expect to have seen the nasty Brazilian strains travel up through Central America with the migrants and into Texas and spread throughout the USA from there.

So the reality is your stuck on finding looking for a flaw (and there are flaws) in the Democrats response so you don't have to see the Republicans as uniquely contributing to the spread of disease and death. The border just pushes your buttons already so its easy for you to exaggerate some small danger there and equate it with policy that is actively prohibits what we should be doing for public health.

Should we have shut down more international travel? Almost certainly. Would it have stopped it reaching our shores, probably not. It would have slowed it down, the real issue is we have a bunch of people saying "I'm too special for vaccines." The CDC ending their universal mask recommendation didn't help, because the alternative to everyone masking is the people who think COVID is some hoax going unvaccinated and unmasked. They may have been right on the danger to vaccinated people at the time but they were wrong about the public health consequences of removing masks. At least they have been adults about it and admitted they were wrong, hard to put the cat back in the bag at this point to get masks back on but at least they are trying.

Crunch

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Is that better or worse than a lifelong resident of Texas who tests positive, is told to quarantine, and goes to whataburger?

Why do you think being in the country illegally means you cannot spread COVID when you are infected with it?

Wayward Son

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What is heaven's name made you think that The Drake doubted that an illegal can spread the disease?  ???

TheDrake

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Crunch wouldn't do so well with standardized reading comprehension tests, with questions like "what is the authors main point?"

Every human on earth can spread the virus. Native born Americans who have never left the country, legal residents who have been in the country since before covid, legal residents who have been overseas and returned since covid, legal visitors from overseas since covid, students from overseas since covid, legal asylum seekers, and illegal entrants. Explain why I should be fixated on illegal crossings above all these other sources?

Seriati

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No health expert could possibly go along with Desantis ordering that schools that require masking could lose funding.  This is clearly an completely against public health and will definitely result in deaths.

Really?  It may be difficult to prove given the actual rate of transmission in children and the actual death rate in children.  I think it would be more accurate to say that you're advocating for a major amount of damage to avoid a small but visible risk.  The amount of damage that's already been done to children from mandatory masking during critical periods of development is frankly incalculable.  The amount of damage to civil liberties being done is incalculable.  Both are individually larger and more certain than the risk you are "guarding" against (and quite likely not actually guarding against but virtue signalling that you are guarding against).

I suspect your demand for charges to DeSantis doesn't extend to members of the teachers union that pushed policies that harm kids, school board, governors and Joe Biden that have damaged children with calls that are not supported by the actual science.

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He has made similar threats against businesses requiring masks or in the case of cruises vaccinations.

He has threatened businesses violating the civil rights of his citizens.  Weren't you on here arguing that a cake shop had to have the full weight of the state thrown on it and it's owner threatened with destruction for a violation of civil rights (even if the cake shop owner's civil rights were being violated in the process)?

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Should Desantis be subject to charges of manslaughter/murder?  The deaths will be a direct result of his callous disregard for life - with the only possible motive of personal gain by pandering to his base.

Leftist prosecutors that have unilaterally voided the actual laws of the jurisdictions they represent, literally overturning the will of the people about the laws that have been enacted in violation of their own oaths of office, are directly responsible for far more deaths and far more damages. 

Are you calling for them to pay for this as well?  Of course not, you've made clear that you view the left violating the law as "okay" and the right following the law as a crime.

Seriati

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https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-promises-appeal-immigration-ruling-urges-congress-act-2021-07-17/

A U.S. District judge ruled DACA illegal.

Supreme Court ruled that Trump couldn't end it without justification - seems unlikely that they will find in favor of this judge's finding of it being unconstitutional.

Not what the SC said.  Their decision is stupid, but what it actually said is that ending DACA by executive order violated the APA, and refused -at the same time- to consider that DACA had been established in violation of the APA.  If they were going to be consistent they'd rule DACA a violation of the APA.  I suspect they hoped that one of the agencies would follow the APA and pass new DACA regs, or Congress would resolve under the law, before a follow up case can get back to them again, but if it turns out it can't, I expect they'll find a way to disallow the appeal on standing grounds.

They really can't do anything but find some way to eliminate the case on procedural grounds, because there's no way DACA stands under the law if it gets heard.


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And per the judges order, no new applicants will be processed till has gone through appeals and all of those currently processed status will remain.  So Biden isn't doing anything illegal.

Biden is doing lots of illegal things, including violating the orders of judges in certain cases.  He's directly violating the permitted discretion and has issued illegal executive redirections (again without following anything like the APA).  He's acting illegally, you just don't care, be honest.

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This whole asylum charade is a fraud anyway, the vast majority of it.

I think many seekers might be dubious but are definitely plausible - we have enacted policies to destabilize South and Central America and those policies have had consequences.  It was Republicans who decided that people would have to enter the country to seek asylum.  If we switched to allowing asylum seeking at embassies, like every other country does - it would eliminate the vast majority of border crossings for the purpose of asylum application.  So if you don't like the current state of things - blame the party responsible - Republicans.

Switching wouldn't eliminate anything that's just a lie.  So long as Democrats are around entering the country illegal is going to be the first choice of any one of the false asylum seekers, and they are false seekers.  We're not responsible for the state of their home countries in any event, but they're not entitled to asylum just because their country is a mess either.

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It isn't illegal to seek asylum.  Again, the Republicans could change the law to allow asylum seekers to apply at US embassies.  We have treaties that we are required to allow asylum applications.  There are treaties about the treatment of asylum seekers. The law is simply being followed.

That's a lie.  Unethical persons are coaching illegal immigrants on asylum fraud.  Most of these seekers are literal economic migrants and completely unentitled to asylum.  Only through fraud - deliberately coached fraud - and a court system that has been deliberately starved of resources and burdened with procedural hurdles designed to frustrate its ability to actually apply the law are they allowed to stay for long periods of time.

The Biden adminstration's current process is directly in violation of Biden's oath of office to faithfully execute the laws of this Country.  He knows, you know, the entire left knows it, but you don't care and will lie about it rather than admit it.

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And I mean nobody. When the laws are bad it's a good thing when they are broken. That should be the Democrats' catchphrase. Maybe it already is.

The laws aren't being broken, they are being adhered to as written.

Repeating a Big Lie makes you complicit.

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First all intercepted unlawful immigrants and asylum seekers are probably tested and treated for Covid.  So there is little or no chance that they are a source of the spread of Covid  So your reasoning is bizzare.

Secondly DeSantis is arguably engaging in behaviors that are a 'callous disregard' for life and thus any deaths as a result may potentially be prosecuted under manslaughter or murder 2.

The "right's" illegal immigrants with COVID argument is stupid, it's clearly designed around soundbites.  Biden's policy on this is also remarkably stupid and completely undercuts his arguments for COVID being a public health emergency.  His policies are in direct logical conflict, which demonstrates that the rationale for one or both is a lie.

Second your legal analysis is beyond misguided to the point of being misinformation.  If your argument were even remotely plausible, then every Democrat governor, prosecutor, and DA would be put in jail for Murder 2 in connection with every single death connected to their blatant refusal to prosecute our criminal laws.  Every single local mayor and city council member that has "defunded" the police or issued policies to them that limit their ability to enforce our laws prosecuted for murder 2 for every single additional death we've had in those cities, as well as for aiding and abetting all the various property crimes and assaults.

Every single last one of those Democrats is far more directly involved in a direct violation of an actual law, operating against the best interests of their citizens and acting with a callous disregard for life.

LetterRip

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So are you arguing that moron and assh*le are protected classes?  Pretty sure that they aren't.

As to 'children',

hospitalization rate is about 3x typical flu - 2.5% hospitalized

https://www.aappublications.org/news/2021/06/04/covid-hospitalization-adolescents-060421

Since long term mental and physical harm occurs frequently for those with severe enough COVID to be hospitalized, that is rather important.

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Switching wouldn't eliminate anything that's just a lie.

Why wouldn't asylum seekers go to a US embassy in their own country rather than take the hardships of traveling and crossing the border?  I sincerely believe that it would eliminate the vast majority of asylum border crossers, and see no reason to think otherwise - so regardless of whether you think I'm wrong it isn't a lie.  The only arguement you raise is ' Unethical persons are coaching illegal immigrants on asylum fraud.' - that may indeed be the case.   Also they likely view themselves as ethical, just with differing ethics from you. They could also just as easily (more so) be coached in 'asylum fraud' in their home country, so it is unclear why you think it would matter at all, or in fact not count against your assertion.

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So long as Democrats are around entering the country illegal is going to be the first choice of any one of the false asylum seekers, and they are false seekers.

Again it isn't clear why you think this?  What makes an expensive trek preferable to asylum seeking from ones native country for those who are 'false seekers'?  Also even assuming coaching is a significant issue - what makes you think they are 'democrats' as opposed to say greens, anarchists, Christians, family and friends of the immigrant, etc.

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Only through fraud - deliberately coached fraud - and a court system that has been deliberately starved of resources and burdened with procedural hurdles designed to frustrate its ability to actually apply the law are they allowed to stay for long periods of time.

So the Republicans allocated more resources to the court system and revised procedures when they had control of all three branches of the government?  Strange, don't recall that happening.  In fact the opposite.  Biden administration is seeking a 21% increase in budget for the asylum courts - directly opposed to your assertion.

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Likewise, the Biden administration last month said it would seek a 21 percent increase to the budget for immigration courts, good enough to hire 100 new immigration judges to begin to ease the courts’ massive backlog.

Also you'll note that Biden's appointees are largely 'anti-immigration' which the Brennan Center objects to,

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Almost all of the 17 new immigration judges come with backgrounds as federal, state, or local prosecutors or have strong ties to U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement or the Department of Homeland Security.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/bidens-new-immigration-judges-are-more-same

As usual, the facts are rather the opposite of your assertion.  Apparently you are another 'truthiness' advocate - if it feels correct to you so assert it as fact however contrary to actual fact it is.

that is enough for now, you can't get basic facts right, so further arguing with you is kinda pointless.  I do wish you were 'pre-Trump Seriati' - who had some semblance of respect for reality.