Author Topic: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat  (Read 6985 times)

TheDrake

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But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« on: October 08, 2020, 02:19:22 PM »
Six men charged in alleged plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer

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Six men are under arrest for "conspiring to kidnap" Michigan's Democratic governor, Gretchen Whitmer, from her vacation home before the November election, federal authorities said Thursday.

The arrests grew out of an FBI investigation begun in March into militia groups' discussing the "violent overthrow" of certain government and law enforcement officials, and each of the men faces up to life in prison if convicted of the federal charges, authorities said.

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"The individuals in custody are suspected to have attempted to identify the home addresses of law enforcement officers in order to target them, made threats of violence intended to instigate a civil war, and engaged in planning and training for an operation to attack the capitol building of Michigan and to kidnap government officials, including the governor of Michigan," Nessel said in a news release.

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For months, Whitmer has drawn the ire of militia groups and others opposed to her restrictions aimed at curbing the spread of the coronavirus.

Armed protesters took to the streets of Lansing, the state capital, during the early days of Whitmer’s coronavirus lockdown orders. And President Donald Trump famously tweeted "LIBERATE MICHIGAN!" in April.

DonaldD

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2020, 05:14:24 PM »
They are now up to 13 people charged and counting... thanks Obama

Seriati

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2020, 05:23:36 PM »
Odd Subject line.  Did you think somehow Antifa was a personal threat to Whitmer?  Or are you just trying to pretend that a group that specializes in intimidating and terrorizing citizens without power and who can not effectively fight back is less of a threat to our country than a group of morons trying to engage in a political assassination?

In the real world, millions have been directly or indirectly impacted by Antifa, and zero by these idiots.

Wayward Son

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2020, 05:33:48 PM »
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Or are you just trying to pretend that a group that specializes in intimidating and terrorizing citizens without power and who can not effectively fight back is less of a threat to our country than a group of morons trying to engage in a political assassination?

And are you trying to pretend that conspiring political assassinations is not intimidating?  That guys marching with shields and clubs is not intimidating?  That standing in front of government buildings brandishing assault rifles is not intimidating?  That the people murdered each year by right-wing morons is somehow not intimidating??

Well, you're doing a poor job of it, let me tell you. :)

Seriati

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2020, 05:45:31 PM »
It's funny, cause antifa makes threats all the time, they ship shields, clubs and other weapons in Uhaul trucks apparently, they burn down government buildings, and they have been linked to all manner of felonies.  Yet somehow you think you've made an argument.

Can you point me to the city that is being looted by white nationalists?  Can you point me to the place where they've been rioting for months or even days?  Can you identify anywhere that they have committed some crime in that context?

No, you can probably just link to the old debunked hate crimes report that over-ascribes the actions of a couple specific criminal skin head gangs and ignores 95% of racially motivated violence because they can't "prove" a connection.

Long and short, your post is propaganda.  Antifa is real.  The threat is real.  Antifa has been involved in far more crime and intimidation than white nationalists.  Pretending that people who hate on Whitmer, who is a LITERAL autocratic dictator (ie. she IS a fascist but somehow antifa ignores that), because of her illegal assumption of plenary authority is symptomatic of a larger threat is delusional.  Whitmer is a dictator.

DonaldD

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2020, 06:05:49 PM »
Easy there wmLambert... It sounds like you want Whitmer overthrown, almost...

TheDrake

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2020, 06:26:47 PM »
I think there's a big difference between people with rocks and roman candles, versus the threat posed by people with automatic weapons and explosive devices. That's the point. The militia groups are armed to the teeth, and yes, most of them haven't opened fire into a crowd at this point. When it comes to government buildings, who has taken more lives, Timothy McVeigh or all of Antifa combined.

I'm not saying Antifa should be ignored, and I'm not saying they are not a threat. But who is the greater threat?

I'm glad these guys were caught in time.

If Whitmer exceeds her power, that's what the courts are for. Lots of people have challenged government during this period. Ultimately, she can also be impeached. Unless you think making people wear masks and shutting down businesses to stop the spread of disease in an emergency warrants armed rebellion and/or assassination.

Seriati

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2020, 07:12:05 PM »
I think there's a big difference between people with rocks and roman candles, versus the threat posed by people with automatic weapons and explosive devices. That's the point.

There is a big difference.  The former is a massive group of Democratic partisans that are burning, looting and intimidating their political opponents, who've not only expressed that its okay to use force to stop protected political speech they don't want to hear but have acted on those ambitions.  It's a group that is routinely protected by the leftist media (who pretends they aren't real), by DNC politicians (who deny they are real, contrast that with Whitmer's statements today that these crazies are Trump's fault because he refuses to condemn them and those words have consequences.  I mean honestly, if you can't recognize that bit of open illogic, you're insanely partisan), and by DNC county and state level prosecutors and attorney generals (who have guaranteed there are no legal consequences for any of these acts of terrorism and not even 24 hours of holding them in jail).

The other is largely a figment of your delusion.  Yep six crazies were caught.  Six crazies who won't be bailed out of jail by Trump campaign staffers (unlike the Biden campaign's relationship with antifa brown shirts).  Six crazies who won't be excused and protected by the right.  Yet six crazies the DNC media is going to pretend prove an existential threat to everyone so that they can blame the Republicans and continue to lie about what is really occurring.

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The militia groups are armed to the teeth, and yes, most of them haven't opened fire into a crowd at this point.

I think the word you're looking for is "none" of whom have opened fire into a crowd.  Meanwhile, antifa's have routinely attacked peaceful protestors and even journalists they don't like.  Heck in one case they even planned and executed an ambush attempted murder of a journalist.  Just to avoid confusion that's a literal assasination attempt to try to stop a message they don't like.

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When it comes to government buildings, who has taken more lives, Timothy McVeigh or all of Antifa combined.

I'm not saying Antifa should be ignored, and I'm not saying they are not a threat. But who is the greater threat?

Between Antifa and Timothy McVeigh?  Antifa (McVeigh died 20 years ago).  Between Antifa and white nationalists?  Antifa.

I mean you're correct that Timothy McVeigh was able to carry out a terrorist attack, a mass killing for a vague position.  There's nothing vague about Antifa, and their politics leads to assasinations, to fire bombings, to destroying their opponents, and if they get power to pogroms, forced reeducation camps, state sanctioned robbery and even disappearrences.  If you want to talk big pictures, communism and the new ideals of the left have killed more people than virtually any other philosophy. 

But hey I'm sure the history of giving power to groups that endorse violence to settle peaceful political agreements will totally work out differently this time, cause you know "good guys."

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I'm glad these guys were caught in time.

Everyone is.  But you're not outraged that the terrrorists with whom you agree politically are released, protected and emboldened, and that's where we differ.

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If Whitmer exceeds her power, that's what the courts are for.

Whitmer exceeded her power.  That's just a fact.  Both at the state and federal level.  Just this week the courts have started declaring it so.  The fact that you think the "remedy" for an actual dictator wielding arbitrary authority is to wait and hope that the "courts" will stop her is beyond crazy.

Whitmer was required to get legislative authority for her actions.  She refused.  If this were Trump you'd be raging about it.   Not even a question.  You'd be raging about it being the worst crime in history.  It's not Trump, is a Democratic governor from Michigan who declared the unilateral authority to issue laws like a king and you have not said a word.  You haven't protested, in fact you maligned protesters that brought attention to it as dangerous or deranged.

Whitmer should be removed from office for her violations of the rights of US citizens.  Are you educated enough on her actions to realize it or defend it?  Or is this only about team colors?  What consistent principle allows you to evaluate Trump's actions and Whitmer's actions and not come to the conclusion that Whitmer is a far greater threat to Democracy?

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Lots of people have challenged government during this period. Ultimately, she can also be impeached. Unless you think making people wear masks and shutting down businesses to stop the spread of disease in an emergency warrants armed rebellion and/or assassination.

That's like saying that all Trump was trying to do was to enforce our immigration laws.

Whitmer issued completely arbitrary dictats, with the force of law.  She corruptly excused her allies and punished her enemies.  Remember when you wanted Trump impeached where you couldn't even find evidence he did something?  Yet here there are volumes and have you leveled any criticism?  If you care about abuse of power, about corruption, about a threat to Democracy, as many of you have claimed in your criticisms of Trump, where is your harsh condemnation now?

No, this thread is a "jump in at the end of the game" ploy.  Pretend like an aberration is everything, and then put out a headline to whitewash an actual terrorist movement.

It's propaganda.

TheDrake

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2020, 09:10:15 PM »
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Everyone is.  But you're not outraged that the terrrorists with whom you agree politically are released, protected and emboldened, and that's where we differ.

I don't agree with them politically, when you're talking about the actual radicals like the ones posting on itsgoingdown about revolution and overthrowing the capitalist system. Am I upset when somebody caught up in the mix, about whom nothing can actually be proven, then get released? Absolutely not. I'm not aware of any efforts to protect the individuals about whom anything can be proven according to the law.

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Whitmer was required to get legislative authority for her actions.  She refused.  If this were Trump you'd be raging about it.   Not even a question.  You'd be raging about it being the worst crime in history.  It's not Trump, is a Democratic governor from Michigan who declared the unilateral authority to issue laws like a king and you have not said a word.  You haven't protested, in fact you maligned protesters that brought attention to it as dangerous or deranged.

How many Presidents have exceeded their constitutional authority and had executive orders overturned or suspended? I think pretty much every one of them, and they get away with a lot more.

Militia groups are out there stockpiling big boy weapons, not "cans of tuna". They're running defacto terrorist training camps, complete with tactical exercises. They're openly talking about needing to take up arms and overthrow the "oppressors", aka the duly elected government.

I believe Abbot exceeded his authority in the opposite direction, overruling the mayors of Austin, Houston, and Dallas. By decree, he's making law commanding mayors not to enforce a city ordinance. I'm not foaming at the mouth over it.

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Whitmer exceeded her power.  That's just a fact.  Both at the state and federal level.  Just this week the courts have started declaring it so.  The fact that you think the "remedy" for an actual dictator wielding arbitrary authority is to wait and hope that the "courts" will stop her is beyond crazy.

So its crazy to think that the courts will stop her, in the same paragraph where you say they are stopping her? What, do you think she's going to defy the court orders, disband them and the legislature?

I'll admit, I don't know enough about the situation to weigh in on whether I think Whitmer should be impeached, recalled, censured, or simply voted out of office. I know that she was attempting to keep the people who elected her alive (you do remember she was elected by a majority of people in Michigan, right?). Also, The first-term Democratic governor was viewed favorably by 51% of respondents while 41% said they viewed her unfavorably. Hard to find a dictator with a majority who approve of them.

wmLambert

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2020, 09:25:53 PM »
What's really interesting is that the Whitmer kidnap militia leader, Brandon Caserta, posted a video on YouTube with an AntiFa flag hanging from his wall behind him. Kinda funny. He is not a Republican, he is an anarchist.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1314267058339819520

wmLambert

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2020, 10:07:42 PM »
...I don't know enough about the situation to weigh in on whether I think Whitmer should be impeached, recalled, censured, or simply voted out of office.

She also blamed Trump for these anarchists trying to kidnap her, when it was his Justice Department that caught them.

DonaldD

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2020, 10:18:28 PM »
What's really interesting is that the Whitmer kidnap militia leader, Brandon Caserta, posted a video on YouTube with an AntiFa flag hanging from his wall behind him. Kinda funny. He is not a Republican, he is an anarchist.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1314267058339819520
That was an anarchy flag, not Antifa, but thanks for playing.  He is also a Qanon follower, and, in case there was ambiguity, according to your own link he is a Kyle Rittenhouse fan.  That's some serious cognitive dissonance there...

yossarian22c

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2020, 09:06:49 AM »
In the real world, millions have been directly or indirectly impacted by Antifa, and zero by these idiots.

Whitmore was impacted by these idiots. The associate the stress of a real kidnapping/murder plot against you has an impact.

Other than people watching fox news and being told about the great evil Antifa I have no idea how you get millions have been impacted by Antifa.

TheDrake

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2020, 10:00:32 AM »
...I don't know enough about the situation to weigh in on whether I think Whitmer should be impeached, recalled, censured, or simply voted out of office.

She also blamed Trump for these anarchists trying to kidnap her, when it was his Justice Department that caught them.

Well, let's see. What was it he said? LIBERATE MICHIGAN! Perhaps you can see how that might encourage people to take it upon themselves to remove the tyrant?

As for the FBI, I thought you said they were the deep state and hated Trump, spied on him, plotted a coup....

wmLambert

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2020, 11:27:00 AM »
What's really interesting is that the Whitmer kidnap militia leader, Brandon Caserta, posted a video on YouTube with an AntiFa flag hanging from his wall behind him. Kinda funny. He is not a Republican, he is an anarchist.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1314267058339819520
That was an anarchy flag, not Antifa, but thanks for playing.  He is also a Qanon follower, and, in case there was ambiguity, according to your own link he is a Kyle Rittenhouse fan.  That's some serious cognitive dissonance there...

You're right. The AntiFa flag has a stylized black flag over a red flag. That Anarchist symbol is just what they wear on all their T-shirts. The thirteen arrested in the Whitmer kidnap plot are a bunch of anti-government anarchists from all over three states, and certainly not a local group. They use the "Wolverine Watchmen" as their name, but are not all from Michigan. What links them is their anti-government postings.

JoshuaD

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2020, 02:43:51 PM »
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But yeah, Antifa is the real threat

I know it's fun to play hot-potato and "your idiots are more dangerous than my idiots", but we can all agree that there can be more than one "real threat", right?

TheDrake

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2020, 03:35:29 PM »
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But yeah, Antifa is the real threat

I know it's fun to play hot-potato and "your idiots are more dangerous than my idiots", but we can all agree that there can be more than one "real threat", right?

You're not wrong, they are both threats. And its good not to be dismissive of either.

Crunch

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2021, 12:06:39 PM »
It's always fun to catch the story as it devolves, ain't it?

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The U.S. Department of Justice received an unwelcome Christmas gift from defense attorneys representing five men charged with conspiring to “kidnap” Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer in 2020: a motion to dismiss the case.

Why dismiss?

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“In this Case, the undisputed evidence, as demonstrated in forty-four pages of statements already submitted to the Court, establishes that government agents and informants concocted, hatched, and pushed this ‘kidnapping plan’ from the beginning, doing so against defendants who explicitly repudiated the plan,” the five defense attorneys wrote in the December 25 motion. “When the government was faced with evidence showing that the defendants had no interest in a kidnapping plot, it refused to accept failure and continued to push its plan.”

How hard did they push?

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The FBI funded and organized two “militia” conferences in the summer of 2020 to lure would-be kidnappers; handled all expenses so indigent defendants could attend surveillance and training excursions, which were photographed by the government to use as evidence; and paid cash to numerous informants, including at least $50,000 to the lead informant, known as “Big Dan” to the unwitting suspects.

As if that weren't enough:

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... the lead prosecutor recently informed the judge that three of the FBI’s top agents involved in the case will not take the stand as government witnesses. Richard Trask, the FBI special agent who signed the initial criminal complaint against six men facing federal charges—one man pleaded guilty and is cooperating with authorities—was removed from the case and fired by the FBI after he physically assaulted his wife last summer in a drunken rage following a swingers party at a hotel near their home.

The agents who managed the day-to-day activity of the case’s lead informant also will not testify. FBI agent Jayson Chambers ran a security consulting business on the side; an anonymous Twitter account claiming to represent his firm, Exeintel, dropped hints of pending arrests in the Whitmer case, calling into question his motives as a lead investigator. His partner, FBI agent Henrik Impola, has been accused of committing perjury in a separate case.

The plot to kidnap Whitmer was a FBI operation. Funded, promoted, everything. Even over the objections of their targets. It was perpetrated by agents that have a history of deception and potentially illegal behavior and supported by informants who were paid quite a lot of money to say what the FBI wanted.

This was all a scam.

TheDrake

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2021, 12:29:19 PM »
It's always fun to not provide any reference and focus on the uncorroborated claims of the defense team. OJ's lawyers also said he didn't do it.

Crunch's source appears to be Clarion News.

Clarion parades all the greatest right-wing hits, including anti-vax, big tech, Biden, china virus, et al.

I guess we'll find out if there's anything remotely true about this when the judge rules on this motion to dismiss. If it is so so obvious, I assume it gets tossed. When it doesn't, I'm sure Crunch will have another soundbite from his echo chamber to offer up.

The trial is scheduled for March 8, see ya then!

msquared

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2021, 12:47:07 PM »
What TheDrake says.  This is the defenses claim and Crunch is taking it at face value. 

Fenring

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2021, 01:26:12 PM »
I'll play devil's advocate, even though I haven't studied or researched this case in particular. I think the FBI anti-terrorism activities have largely been a taxpayer boondoggle since 9/11, and the same goes for the new TSA procedures. I have read many cases of the FBI doing exactly what Crunch suggests they did here. I don't know if in this particular case Crunch's claim is correct, but it has the stink of something the FBI would do. They definitely do go out, solicit radicalization, and push and push hoping to get people to commit a terrorist act so that they can finally get a collar and claim they're protecting the country. You could call it corrupt, but it seems to me to be a similar situation to what banks like Wells Fargo did, where budgets are set and success mandates put in place, where departments will have a bad report if they underperform. At Well Fargo that meant low-level employees opened multiple unauthorized bank accounts for people in order to make quota, but it wasn't precisely because they were trying to fleece people for bank fees; it was just an accounting swindle to please upper management. The same could be true in these kinds of FBI operations, where they have to justify budget and show successes. That they resort to literal criminal enterprise to do so may be a side effect. This is me being really charitable to them, since the alternative assumptions are worse. Anyhow, Crunch's claim is completely believable in theory.

msquared

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2021, 01:35:58 PM »
And Crunch probably has no problem with it as long as they FBI sticks with Muslims and people other than white Trump supporters.

TheDrake

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2021, 01:53:40 PM »
I'd love to know how many FBI cases have been thrown out for entrapment, as legally defined. I'm not sure how to gather that information, but it appears rare.

There's a deep dive into the legal concepts by Columbia Human Rights Law Review

Section V examines the uphill battle for the defense being proposed by the lawyers in this case.

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Even where a defendant chooses to challenge these abusive sting practices by going to trial and claiming entrapment, the dismal track record of the entrapment defense shows just how big of a risk these defendants are taking. At the time of writing, none of the domestic terrorism defendants who have gone to trial and claimed entrapment in federal court have been successful.

These guys aren't getting their case dismissed, no matter how morally wrong we might or might not judge the FBI actions. So Crunch's claim of "potentially illegal behavior" seems unfounded.

They do it to BLM also.

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Claiming that they could not purchase the guns themselves due to their criminal records, the FBI informants encouraged Davis and Baldwin to purchase firearms on behalf of the group and even provided the funding. Davis and Baldwin were ultimately convicted after allegedly purchasing three non-functional pipe bombs from an undercover FBI agent

The FBI take is articulated here, on their own website.

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Certain investigative techniques used by law enforcement raise the likelihood of the assertion of an entrapment defense. Perhaps, the highest probability of an entrapment defense arises in undercover operations. Law enforcement agencies need not shy away from using undercover operations, but they must structure them carefully. Terrorist recruits susceptible to undercover agents also will be susceptible to real terrorists. This shows the importance of undercover agents recruiting these individuals first. Executed properly, undercover operations—even those in which law enforcement provides both the means and the opportunity for an individual to succeed in committing a “terrorist act”—are entrapment proof. This article examines the history of the concept of entrapment and demonstrates the importance of structuring an investigation in anticipation of an entrapment defense.

The key point has nothing to do with means, it is all about predisposition.

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However, this example clearly demonstrates that the more forceful the inducement, the more critical the showing of predisposition becomes.

In this case, I suspect that documenting the defendants ranting and raving about overthrowing tyrants coupled with the second amendment and such will be sufficient to show predisposition. We'll find out during the trial, they're not going to get a dismissal. They'll have to attempt presenting the evidence to the jury.

Fenring

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2021, 05:21:20 PM »
In this case, I suspect that documenting the defendants ranting and raving about overthrowing tyrants coupled with the second amendment and such will be sufficient to show predisposition. We'll find out during the trial, they're not going to get a dismissal. They'll have to attempt presenting the evidence to the jury.

I don't really know anything about the legal side of matters. But I suspect the system is weighted for the FBI and against people who get conned into doing stupid stuff. At the best of the times I don't get the impression that the U.S. court system is high on 'reasonable mercy' in the sense of just forgetting about a deed because the circumstances were murky. Take this 'disposition' criterion you're mentioning: I can think of umpteen circumstances where someone with disposition - even strong desire - would still never commit the act due to lack of means, cowardice, lack of connections/contacts, inertia (i.e. it's hard to get anything significant started), etc etc. Push someone over any of these humps, and sure you might be able to show they were already pissed at the government, talked trash, and all that. Like I said, I have no clue about the legal ramifications of the minutiae, but I doubt that if someone gets convinced to do something that 'wouldn't have been done otherwise' (a counterfactual, but one we have to imagine anyhow) that the law will let them off due to this. I do think some culpability should exist for even going along with someone else's stupid plan, but maybe as an accessory or something. But it makes little sense to prosecute the idiot unless you're prosecuting the FBI agent goading them on. I know that's a fantasy, but if we were being 'fair' and guilt was to be spread around, I don't see why being employed by the FBI exonerates someone from suggesting criminal acts to others. Being a federal employee shouldn't be a shield against this. If the idiot gets charged, everyone involved should get charged.

Crunch

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2021, 05:23:18 PM »
What TheDrake says.  This is the defenses claim and Crunch is taking it at face value.

I got it from Washington Examiner. You two can play your logical fallacy hit list all you want, even lie about stuff. I don’t care.

My guess, the case has a very good chance of being dropped.

TheDrake

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2021, 06:10:10 PM »
It has an almost zero chance of being dropped, for all the reasons I took the time to cite from both a site critical of FBI practices and from the FBI itself. Which include the historical record of this defense almost never working.

The reason means is not an iron clad argument? The concept is that people are lying in wait and ripe for being funded by some actual bad guys. If somebody is just dying to place pipe bombs somewhere, but doesn't know how to buy the materials and couldn't afford them, then the FBI sees it as effectively defusing a ticking time bomb that just deeds a detonator added to the equation. The concept is that it would have been done at a future point, as soon as they got their hands on the means. Which is what the FBI is trying to demonstrate.

I'm not sure to what extent I agree with that approach, but the kidnapping wasn't something cooked up by the FBI. Or foisted on them all over their initial objections.

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But Dan used his growing influence to include Fox in group meetings and to develop his own personal relationship with him. Fox, in turn, began referring to Dan as his “brother,” according to Fox’s former fiancé.

On June 28, Fox came to Morrison’s property in Munith for a training. After the session was over, Musico gathered everyone inside for a “circle of trust” to discuss plans. Dan was there and, until his battery died, he recorded it all.

Joe Morrison’s property in Munith, Michigan, where the Wolverine Watchmen frequently trained.

Until that point, Fox’s energy had been narrowly focused on storming the state Capitol. But the Watchmen worried that would be too hard to pull off. Conversation instead turned to kidnapping, a prospect favored by Musico, who also suggested they knock on the doors of police or politicians late at night in order to drag them off and kill them. He added that anyone who didn’t feel comfortable attacking politicians should leave the group.

“Who’s down for kidnapping tyrants?” Fox asked the others.

Here's your cast program:

Musico: asked the Watchmen to download a hunting app to track police and murder them. Founding member. Breached the Michigan capitol unopposed - armed. Searched for Whitmer's office. Bragged about throwing Molotov cocktails into cops homes, pretended to have C4. Called for Whitmer to be arrested, threatened to Molotov her house.

Dan: initiated contact with the FBI when he learned about Musico and got concerned, turned informant

Fox: Asked Watchmen who didn't feel comfortable attacking politicians to leave the group. Repeatedly brought up kidnapping whitmer. When asked by Dan what the mission was, he responded “have the governor hogtied down on a table”

The idea belonged to Fox. The key players were awash in violent rhetoric making claims to have committed violence, and having means to do so.

Dan did apparently use his influence to prevent Fox from being sidelined by more rational group members, that's ethically questionable. This is the item that was cited in a motion to dismiss filed all the way back in May 18 with respect to Musico. I can't find out if that motion was ever ruled on.

Large pile of detailed information

Crunch

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2021, 11:03:00 AM »
I'm not sure to what extent I agree with that approach, but the kidnapping wasn't something cooked up by the FBI. Or foisted on them all over their initial objections.

Fact check: false.

TheDrake

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2021, 07:22:49 PM »
I'm not sure to what extent I agree with that approach, but the kidnapping wasn't something cooked up by the FBI. Or foisted on them all over their initial objections.

Fact check: false.

Compelling argument. We'll find out. I'm not taking the defense's claims at face value, and we have no other information beyond that to support this idea. Meanwhile, I've already shown that Fox was "down for kidnapping tyrants" - regardless of the origin of the kidnapping idea, which appears to be Musico and Fox, he most certainly didn't fight against it, he was all for it.

alai

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2021, 03:47:19 AM »
I'm not taking the defense's claims at face value, and we have no other information beyond that to support this idea.
Ooooo, you gonna make Crunch mad again!  ... OK, Crunch being mad will continue, as usual.  They were very annoyed at this characterisation of the basis of their position.  Quite why taking at face value the spoutings of a "failed" (as The Former Guy would say) right-wing tabloid turned magazine is better than this I dunno.  Doubtless all will become clear in due course.  Or at least, there will be a further chaff-cloud of ad homs and general vituperation.   One or the other!

TheDrake

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2021, 11:00:56 AM »
I'm not taking the defense's claims at face value, and we have no other information beyond that to support this idea.
Ooooo, you gonna make Crunch mad again!  ... OK, Crunch being mad will continue, as usual.  They were very annoyed at this characterisation of the basis of their position.  Quite why taking at face value the spoutings of a "failed" (as The Former Guy would say) right-wing tabloid turned magazine is better than this I dunno.  Doubtless all will become clear in due course.  Or at least, there will be a further chaff-cloud of ad homs and general vituperation.   One or the other!

The information about Fox can be found in hundreds of publications. It isn't single source. I chose the one referenced because it gathers more of the available information into one place than dozens of AP articles. The tone of the piece doesn't whitewash the FBI. The author's question if Fox could have ever advanced his plan without support and encouragement from the FBI plants. As well as highlighting that's they pushed to turn vague ideas into operational plans, pushing for the group to "have a plan, what's the plan". There's plenty of room to wonder if this group would have done anything without FBI involvement, sheer inertia and laziness could easily have won out. None of that is the same as the kidnap plot only brought up by the FBI and forced down the throats of the glorious Patriot militia.

Agreed that definitive answers will be revealed at the trial, which isn't going to be bypassed with dismissal.

DJQuag

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2021, 12:33:07 PM »
So you all know, you know how that super racist guy, we all knew he was Pete at Home? We told him to go *censored* himself and then he pissed off?


Alai is Pete at Home and it's...it's really not even hard to see.

alai

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2021, 02:32:39 PM »
So you all know, you know how that super racist guy, we all knew he was Pete at Home? We told him to go *censored* himself and then he pissed off?


Alai is Pete at Home and it's...it's really not even hard to see.
Seems harder to see from where I'm sitting (though it appears to be implicit in what you're saying that you don't/won't believe me).

Can anyone tell me a) what the heck DJQuag is talking about, and b) approximately how offended I should be?  Because to the naked eye, ir appears that I've just been called c) racist -- nay, super-racist! -- and d) a sock puppet, outside of literally any context and on no basis whatsoever.

Fenring

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2021, 02:34:58 PM »
Alai is Pete at Home and it's...it's really not even hard to see.

I suppose if you think alai is an exercise in Pete trying a different writing style, then I would have to admit it's a successful exercise, since they don't write similarly at all. So I guess my question would be why you think it's not hard to see. What was so easy that you stopped it?

alai

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2021, 02:59:19 PM »
The information about Fox can be found in hundreds of publications. It isn't single source.
I was commenting on Crunch's source (the WaEx), not yours, for clarity.

Quote
I chose the one referenced because it gathers more of the available information into one place than dozens of AP articles. The tone of the piece doesn't whitewash the FBI. The author's question if Fox could have ever advanced his plan without support and encouragement from the FBI plants. As well as highlighting that's they pushed to turn vague ideas into operational plans, pushing for the group to "have a plan, what's the plan".
I didn't look at the BuzzFeed article yet, will do when my brain's more up to speed.  I wouldn't be in the least surprised to see the FBI not exactly looking squeaky clean here.  Given charges against and the firing of the lead agent, it looks like a little like domestic abusers investigating domestic terrorists.

This sort of "OMG entrapment!" issue is always going arise with this sort of operation.  The investigator have to infiltrate the group and remain within it, which is hardly consistent with being the guy at the back with no thoughts on the matter of their own, but that would like you to speak loudly and clearly when you're planning the violent and seditious stuff.  Without tipping over into being the person devising and leading the whole thing.  So as defences go it's pretty much the inevitable one -- which tells us very little about how much merit it has, without knowing meticulous detail of their actions, and what legal standard such investigations have been held to before.

alai

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2021, 03:18:34 PM »
I suppose if you think alai is an exercise in Pete trying a different writing style, then I would have to admit it's a successful exercise, since they don't write similarly at all.
I'm sure that's a relief for both of us!

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So I guess my question would be why you think it's not hard to see. What was so easy that you stopped it?
Or why it'd be the case in a fit, if DJ isn't averse to praising their own alleged acuity.

OK, so out of morbid curiosity, I searched for "Pete at Home" on this forum:  no hits apart at all from this thread.  I googled '"Pete at Home" ornery' -- some indexes references that aren't cached and don't work live (apparently lost forever, judging by what LetterRip said elsewhere).  "New Forum Software - This Forum Now Disabled ::: OrneryMod, 0, December 12, ... you are a sly one, Mr President Barack Hussein Obama, Pete at Home ..."  http://www.ornery.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi/forum/6.html  And a reference on the hatrack website to this person, back from 2005, that "His son had some kind of mercury poisoning"  So evidently a user here (or what used to be here) for quite a while, and quite a while back.

And somehow I'm this person's sockpuppet -- or they're mine -- or I'm a rereg writing in a totally different style (and apparently at least not so racistly?!) but with some undisclosed similarity?  Whahuh?

DJQuag

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2021, 03:42:29 PM »
Nah, the idea was he quite regularly used to sometimes go out and "trick people." Eh. Don't ask me.

Anyway, he last did it with that weird name attacking trannies. He also tended to post a whole lot. So. If it's not you, my sincere apologies. If it is, I get a cookie.

alai

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2021, 05:17:18 PM »
Nah, the idea was he quite regularly used to sometimes go out and "trick people." Eh. Don't ask me.

Anyway, he last did it with that weird name attacking trannies. He also tended to post a whole lot. So. If it's not you, my sincere apologies. If it is, I get a cookie.
Ah, I see the "post a whole lot" resemblance at least (I do seem to suffer periodic extreme splurges here), though nothing whatsoever else.  Certainly not the racism or the "attacking trannies" (indeed I'm forced the rather tsk at the use of "trannies" therein, which is a ladder even Caitlin Moran had to climb down a while ago).

In case my initial comment seemed in any way like a non-denial denial, I've never used "Pete at Home" as a username anywhere, nor have I been on any version of this forum under any other username prior to this one.

TheDrake

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2021, 05:36:35 PM »
Thanks for the clarification on the source criticism. BuzzFeed could fit some of that description also. It is rarely my first choice, maybe that's what made me sensitive. They were obviously never right-wing, which should have been my clue, but are very tabloid like - or were before the pivot.

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what legal standard such investigations have been held to before

This is the point. FBI has gotten away with pushing jihad as the primary instigator before, and wound up jailing someone who turned the agent in who did the instigating because "he participated in discussions about jihad".

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Soon he started pummeling his new friends with questions about jihad, Black reported, to the point that some people from the mosque started to hear complaints about it.

Monteilh would subsequently confirm that he eventually did much more than ask questions about jihad.

"I said we should carry out a terrorist attack in this country," he told This American Life. "We should bomb something."

Monteilh said that to two of the men he'd been hanging out with, and they freaked out. They wanted to report what they had heard, but they didn't know how to go about it. So they contacted Hassam Ayloush, director of the Council on American Islamic Relations in Southern California.

The supreme court has heard but not ruled on FBI v Fagaza, but the lower courts all dismissed the case siding with the FBI. It isn't a precise analogy, there aren't state secret issues in this case, and this applies to FBI avoiding a civil suit - not criminal proceedings against those spied upon, but it has its general indications. Highly recommend the story on This American Life radio program.

brief story

DJQuag

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2021, 09:51:15 PM »
Nah, the idea was he quite regularly used to sometimes go out and "trick people." Eh. Don't ask me.

Anyway, he last did it with that weird name attacking trannies. He also tended to post a whole lot. So. If it's not you, my sincere apologies. If it is, I get a cookie.
Ah, I see the "post a whole lot" resemblance at least (I do seem to suffer periodic extreme splurges here), though nothing whatsoever else.  Certainly not the racism or the "attacking trannies" (indeed I'm forced the rather tsk at the use of "trannies" therein, which is a ladder even Caitlin Moran had to climb down a while ago).

In case my initial comment seemed in any way like a non-denial denial, I've never used "Pete at Home" as a username anywhere, nor have I been on any version of this forum under any other username prior to this one.

No friend, anyone who knows how you speak or act will recognize you. I guess you thought it was clever, or original, to take another name from Ender's Game for your self?

It wasn't.

TheDeamon

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2021, 10:13:42 PM »
OK, so out of morbid curiosity, I searched for "Pete at Home" on this forum:  no hits apart at all from this thread.  I googled '"Pete at Home" ornery' -- some indexes references that aren't cached and don't work live (apparently lost forever, judging by what LetterRip said elsewhere).  "New Forum Software - This Forum Now Disabled ::: OrneryMod, 0, December 12

http://www.ornery.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=11

Not lost, still here.

TheDrake

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #40 on: January 01, 2022, 05:05:27 PM »
I've traded hundreds of messages with Pete, and you are out of your mind, DJ, but even more curious is why it is an ornery hobby to try and identify someone as being an old poster who disappeared. It's like the Q waiting for Kennedy to resurface. In any event can we have a special thread for identity challenges and not flood threads with random nonsense. Please?

alai

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #41 on: January 01, 2022, 05:20:00 PM »
In any event can we have a special thread for identity challenges and not flood threads with random nonsense. Please?
Or use "report to moderator" (since Quackers here seems to think P@H left in bad standing in some way), or PM them, or whatever.

http://www.ornery.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=11

Not lost, still here.
Thanks, I wasn't finding any of those on either of my search attempts.  But that's from 2015-2020, presumably the "lost archives" (like the broken link above) are from earlier, and some other version of the server software.  Those are the ones I was referring to.

No friend, anyone who knows how you speak or act will recognize you.
This is utterly bizarre.  Doesn't sound like you were on exactly "friendly" terms with the user you've contrived to take me for, and you're certainly doing nothing to endear yourself to me.  You said you'd apologise if you were mistaken;  when assured you are, you just brazenly double down and call me a liar to my face.  Utterly baselessly, and wildly wrongly.  As far as I'm concerned, you can follow the same advice you said the forum regulars gave Pete;  I'm out of patience with this nonsense, and don't plan on indulging it further.

TheDrake

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Re: But yeah, Antifa is the real threat
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2022, 11:49:23 AM »
Quote
The information about Fox can be found in hundreds of publications. It isn't single source. I chose the one referenced because it gathers more of the available information into one place than dozens of AP articles. The tone of the piece doesn't whitewash the FBI. The author's question if Fox could have ever advanced his plan without support and encouragement from the FBI plants. As well as highlighting that's they pushed to turn vague ideas into operational plans, pushing for the group to "have a plan, what's the plan". There's plenty of room to wonder if this group would have done anything without FBI involvement, sheer inertia and laziness could easily have won out. None of that is the same as the kidnap plot only brought up by the FBI and forced down the throats of the glorious Patriot militia.

Agreed that definitive answers will be revealed at the trial, which isn't going to be bypassed with dismissal.

Speaking of that trial that wasn't dismissed for entrapment.

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The agent said he showed videos of explosives to the defendants during a training weekend.

Mr Fox, said to be the group's ringleader, was "excited about what he saw" and asked if Mr Bates would "take an IOU" while he put together $4,000 (£3,044) to pay for the explosives, Mr Bates testified.

Not looking good for Fox and Friends.