Trump looses again

[NobleHunter]

I wonder if they found a Trump judge to sign off on the warrant.

Has the GOP forgotten that the FBI probably cost Clinton the election? Or is this another one of their dual standards?

[Wayward Son]

Well, it didn't take long for Trump to become a martyr to some.

Trump supporters are calling for civil war.

MAGA, QAnon, and far-right message boards and Telegram channels lit up Monday night with calls for a violent response to what some extremists see as a political attack directed by the Biden administration.

The posts on these pro-Trump forums tonight are as violent as I’ve seen them since before January 6th. Maybe even more so.

[yossarian22c]

I wonder if they found a Trump judge to sign off on the warrant.

Has the GOP forgotten that the FBI probably cost Clinton the election? Or is this another one of their dual standards?

They forgot about that as soon as Trump turned on Comey. The man f-ing handed Trump the white house with his, "we're investigating new emails/nevermind same old stuff" press releases the weekend before the election.

[msquared]

Another loss on his tax info.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/house-committee-see-trump-tax-160328279.html

He will probably appeal to the SC since that has been his MO. We will see if the SC has any objectivity left.

[msquared]

What a surprise.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/does-plead-fifth-mean-trumps-115925747.html

Now lets play all of the videos of Trump saying only the guilty need to take the 5th.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMyh7ko9L2g

[yossarian22c]

Along the same lines. All the Republicans are crying about the need for the justice department to release the warrant authorizing the search of Trump's place. Trump (his lawyers) have copies of the warrant and they could release them. But if the justice department actually complied with their demands the message would be: "Look at how much they leak to hurt Trump!"

[yossarian22c]

What a surprise.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/does-plead-fifth-mean-trumps-115925747.html

Now lets play all of the videos of Trump saying only the guilty need to take the 5th.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMyh7ko9L2g

And he did take the fifth on all questions.

https://www.npr.org/2022/08/10/1116714746/trump-testimony-deposition-new-york

announcing more than an hour later that he "declined to answer the questions under the rights and privileges afforded to every citizen under the United States Constitution."

[msquared]

Just like his tax returns.  He could release them at any time, even with an audit going on.

What does he have to hide?  It sure looks like the Trump Crime Family is circling the wagons.  I mean that is who Trump has said who uses the 5th, The Mob.

[msquared]

And I just want to be clear.  I really do not have any problem with Trump taking the 5th. I wish he  had done it 3-4 years ago when this all started and saved every one the time and money.  It is his right to claim the 5th and he has every right to  do so.

But I do want to call out his hypocrisy.

[Wayward Son]

Meanwhile, other Trump supporters are threatening the judge who supposedly signed off on the search warrant of Mar-a-Lago.

[msquared]

Ah the Party of Law and Order.

[TheDrake]

But wait a minute, I thought the trumpies had the utmost respect for judges privacy and that it was criminal to attempt to protest their actions?

[msquared]

Again, only when it is your judges.

[Mynnion]

Wasn't this a Trump appointed judge?  Oops, I forgot that as soon as anyone exercises and action that questions Trump they are woke traitors.

[msquared]

So maybe the FBI was tipped off by someone inside Mar-a-Lago.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/fbi-tipped-off-informer-close-043856588.html

Eric Trump was there.  Hmmm.

[TheDrake]

Clearly the judge is secret Antifa. Sneaky devils.

[Wayward Son]

Looks like Judge Reinhart was appointed by Donald Trump in 2018.  But don't worry--Donald only appoints the best judges.  Just ask him.

Meanwhile, various conspiracy theories have arisen about the raid, including one that it was timed to occur on the day Richard Nixon resigned.

[wmLambert]

Yes, Judge Bruce Reinhart was appointed by Trump in 2018. His name somehow made it on the list of good judges. The info that he was a donor to Obama and Never-Trumpers came later. The Epstein stuff is interesting but not very germane. Lots of attorneys defend scumbags. He did step down from his position as a prosecutor to sign up the next day to represent two of Epstein's closest employees. On the outside, he looked competent - but taking his social postings show him to be a rather reckless Never-Trumper. This could have started when he was a Jeb Bush supporter and Jeb was demolished by Trump's campaigning before 2016. There is no doubt that Reinhart had the bona fides to be appointed. It was his inner beast that went unnoticed when Trump appointed him. Now is a different time, and his actions are under scrutiny.

The National Archives and Records Administration asked for the raid. According to their policy, material is generally consigned to them after a President leaves office. However; policy is not law. It is strictly the wishlist of the policy makers for their own betterment. What is embedded in law; is that the President IS the classifier-in-chief of all documents and information. Whatever he decides is unclassified becomes so. The NARA may want files for their collection - but there is no necessity to do so. Stare decisis and precedent shows Clinton and Obama keeping far more documents (...and White House furniture in Clinton's case) than Trump did, and with no FBI raids to get them back. The correct procedure is to go only after the info documented in a verified affidavit which is the sole authority for a warrant. All such info collected must be signed for and documented. There is no authority to raid the FLOTUS wardrobe, or take 15 boxes of uncatalogued documents. Especially not to bring in a safe0cracker to open a personal safe. Most everything collected is liable for challenge - and the legality of anything discovered may be moot. Trump could have written a receipt to give Putin a key to the Treasury, and it would be inadmissible in Court if not specifically written in the Warrent, and authorized by the affidavit.

There are currently suits to reveal the affidavit and get copies of the warrant, that were only flashed at the MAL staff from 10 feet away. and never handed over. This whole raid stinks and needs to become transparent. With this administration that may be wishful thinking, but it looks to ensure the Red Wave.

[msquared]

You know Trump has a copy of the warrant, right?  They have to give him a copy and a receipt for what they took. Since you do not know what the warrant said how do you know they had no right to raid FLOTUS wardrobe?  And bringing a safe cracker to open a safe that is most likely part of the subject of the raid seems perfectly legal to me.

From all that I have read this seems like a perfectly legal execution of a legal search warrant.

[Mynnion]

WM-The Presidential Records Act is not policy but law.  The fact that Trump also had a large number of classified documents that were part of the 15 boxes collected is also questionable.  I find it interesting that those who wanted to lock Clinton up for the handful of classified documents found on her server don't seem to have any interest in holding Trump to the same standard.  Yes, the president CAN declassify data but it still has to be done through channels and only while he was president.

[msquared]

And the attack on the judge is par for the course for Trump supporters.  They are fine and dandy until they make a ruling that goes against Toddler Trump and then all of a sudden they are far left activist judges who never should have been appointed in the first place.

No thought that maybe the judge did the correct thing.  He followed the law and correct procedure.

[Wayward Son]

Most everything collected is liable for challenge - and the legality of anything discovered may be moot. Trump could have written a receipt to give Putin a key to the Treasury, and it would be inadmissible in Court if not specifically written in the Warrant, and authorized by the affidavit.

Nope.  Anything that is in plain sight during the search is admissible.  If the warrant allowed them to open the safe, and the receipt was in there, it is admissible.  They just can't go ripping beds apart if the warrant doesn't say there may be papers inside the bed.

There is also the fact that raids like these are only authorized when there is a crime being committed at the time.  It would be interesting to see what the warrant said.  Perhaps you should encourage Trump to release his copy of it.  (I heard that one of his lawyers has a copy, regardless of what Eric said.)

[LetterRip]

There is also the fact that raids like these are only authorized when there is a crime being committed at the time.

Or where destruction or removal of evidence is likely to occur if there is forewarning.

[msquared]

Looks like the Gov tried to get the documents back earlier this year. But Trump kept them anyway.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/subpoena-preceded-search-warrant-push-181637433.html

It looks like Trump continues to think the Laws do not apply to him.

[Wayward Son]

Why should he?  Do any of his supporters think any law applies to him?

[msquared]

Now that the US AG is saying he is going to ask for the warrant to be unseal, there is talk in Trump land that he might oppose that request.

Why would Trump oppose that request?  Hell, why hasn't he released a copy to the press himself if he is so outraged over it?

Maybe because the DOJ and FBI had good info and there were documents that he was supposed to have returned and did not.

[msquared]

Looks like Trump is not going to oppose the unsealing of the warrant. Good.

As to Obama taking records.  He followed the rules.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-baselessly-bashed-obama-transferring-000423148.html

Trump does not get it. He does not own the USA like he does the Trump companies. There are rules he has to follow. We all know he does not like following rules.

[TheDrake]

In trump world, they think it's good that he doesn't follow the rules. The rules are stupid and trump is a heavily muscled machine gun toting hero with an eagle perched on his shoulder. They might find maps of all our nuclear assets there, and their faith would be unwavering. The evidence was planted. They see nothing wrong with the fact that he ran the government from mar-a-Lago and discussed national security next to the salad bar.

[Mynnion]

You missed the American Flag cape

[wmLambert]

You know Trump has a copy of the warrant, right?  They have to give him a copy and a receipt for what they took. Since you do not know what the warrant said how do you know they had no right to raid FLOTUS wardrobe?  And bringing a safe cracker to open a safe that is most likely part of the subject of the raid seems perfectly legal to me.

From all that I have read this seems like a perfectly legal execution of a legal search warrant.

No. Trump’s lawyer Christina Bobb was only shown part of the warrant. For your understanding, the warrant in question was released early by Trump to the public - but holds little info. The withheld info is all in the affidavit that verified the need for an emergency raid. The specific locations to be searched should have been listed, and legal Trump representatives should have been allowed to witness the raid in its entirety, but they were ordered out of the home to the end of the driveway. These Trump people have said they fear the FBI planted listening and video devices through out the MAL living quarters. The contents of the searched material should have been itemized in detail. They were in there for the better part of a day - so there was time - yet the itemization supposedly only generically lists "boxes".

We know the FBI was proved to have lied about verification of FISA warrants and years of professing what they knew to be lies in order to spy on Trump and his associates. There is no reason at this point to give Justice any credibility. Over half a decade of proof of felony by Democrats has been ignored - yet this raid was sanctioned. Do you recall the raids on other Trump associates?" For minor non-felonious accusations (later proved to be in error) they were held at the end of their driveways in the dead of night - without being allowed to put on their pants, while helicopters and frogmen patrolled the beachfront. There was nothing to be found, yet they grabbed everything they could get their hands on. What can the FBI discover to prove lies about Russia corraboration, when the whole Russia! Russia! Russia! was a lie? Hillary's people were given immunity without being asked any questions. Quite the contrast, neh?

The dark side is plain to see. The more they try to set up Trump as a felonious strawman only defines themselves.

[msquared]

You are relaying Fox talking points again.  Trumps lawyers have the warrant and the list of what was taken.

[wmLambert]

The PRA is moot, because Obama, Clinton, and others all flaunted it and were never held to follow it. The President is the final arbiter of what is classified and what is not. If the nuclear codes were declassified by the President, then they were declassified. No PRA can circumvent that. Hillary only gave back some of the White House furniture they stole because of public pressure to do so. Gifts to the office and not to the person in the office are not to be removed - but such disagreements have always been adjudicated. Merrick Garland is flustered by this attention - and probably wants to ream some of his people new holes in their anatomies for what they are doing to his legacy. But judging from past experience, no one will be held to account for their injudicious actions.

The Red wave is looming larger than ever. Those in line for indictment are scared for their future and appear ready to do anything to avoid their own justice.

[Tom]

If the nuclear codes were declassified by the President, then they were declassified.

Is there a record of his hypothetical decision to declassify them?

[wmLambert]

You are relaying Fox talking points again.  Trumps lawyers have the warrant and the list of what was taken.

Exactly as I posted. Part of the warrant without the affidavit(s) and a generic listing. The specifics of what the FBI raiders did in secret is still open. The raid varies from the treatment of obviously guilty Democrats. Why are you apologizing for their actions? At some point, those boxes must be opened and inventoried. If there are no Trump representatives there, there can be no credibility. When you lie to the FISA Court, those actions have consequences.

[wmLambert]

If the nuclear codes were declassified by the President, then they were declassified.

Is there a record of his hypothetical decision to declassify them?

Truth Social is one place.

[yossarian22c]

If the nuclear codes were declassified by the President, then they were declassified.

Is there a record of his hypothetical decision to declassify them?

Truth Social is one place.

Trump can’t declassify things anymore. He would have had to declassify everything before he left office. Not after.

[Tom]

William, are you saying that if Trump had, as president, gone onto social media and declared, "Any nuclear secrets I may have in my possession in the future are officially declassified," that would have been sufficient notice?

I strongly suspect that multiple arms of our government would disagree with you.

------------

The raid varies from the treatment of obviously guilty Democrats.

Which Democrats, specifically?

[NobleHunter]

I believe nuclear secrets are covered by separate rules than the usual classification regime such that the President may not be able to simply declassify them. Whether or not those rules are Constitutional has not been tested.

[Tom]

(It should also be noted that anything the president unilaterally declassifies officially becomes vulnerable to FOIA requests. I am extremely skeptical that Trump chose, while president, to make any of these documents available to FOIA -- although this could be tested by anyone willing to file a FOIA request for them. *grin*)

[rightleft22]

The government that would replace the government by those that don't trust government scares me.
I suspect that many aiding consciously or unconsciously in  the undermining of the institutions won't like what they will replace the institutions with but I doubt many have thought that far.

[wmLambert]

I believe nuclear secrets are covered by separate rules than the usual classification regime such that the President may not be able to simply declassify them. Whether or not those rules are Constitutional has not been tested.

(It should also be noted that anything the president unilaterally declassifies officially becomes vulnerable to FOIA requests. I am extremely skeptical that Trump chose, while president, to make any of these documents available to FOIA -- although this could be tested by anyone willing to file a FOIA request for them. *grin*)

FOIA requests are applicable to agency records - not personal property. When a President decides to declassify anything, there does not need to be a declaration. The action of putting documents into the public domain defines the action.

Yes, something that endangers National Security is dangerous, but not because of classification, but because of content. That is a separate actionable offense. You don't need to be a President to endanger the Nation.

Even so, if there is a listing of Nuclear sites, as some have proposed, that is still not a problem if it is under lock and key. I note that Hillary did reveal the name of an Iranian scientist who was helping us in her hacked emails, that did get him killed. That is a separate actionable offense that should have put her in prison by now. Nothing was done. Again, if such a nuclear listing was included in Trump's locked storage are, then it is easily accessible by negotiation and would have been remediated without protest. It does not rise to the emergenct level to provoke a raid.

Former FBI assistant director Chris Swecker: "What you're supposed to do when you possess these types of powers that the FBI does and Justice Department does is use the least intrusive investigative technique to get to what you need to get to, [whether] it's information, evidence, what have you. You're supposed to take into consideration the seriousness of the offense, and the impact on the public confidence in the FBI and law enforcement in general. These are codified in the domestic investigative operation guidelines and the attorney general guidelines. What jumps out at me is how that was completely … just shifted aside, just pushed aside. And this dramatic raid takes place over a fairly de minimis offense. Police lights flashing, dawn raid, kitted out ninja warriors outside, 30 agents inside."

[wmLambert]

The government that would replace the government by those that don't trust government scares me.
I suspect that many aiding consciously or unconsciously in  the undermining of the institutions won't like what they will replace the institutions with but I doubt many have thought that far.

Don't be silly. Correcting government malfeasance is as time-honored an action as is possible. The reason so many people agitate for those responsible for crimes in the Democrat Party is because they seem to have gotten away with Sedition, Treason, or personal graft. The Biden Crime Family is credited with at least $31 million of blackmailable slush money. All a National Security Threat. The best response possible is to throw those predators in jail and show future criminals what can happen to them by misbehaving. Nothing for the good guys to be denigrated for.

[Mynnion]

The PRA is moot, because Obama, Clinton, and others all flaunted it and were never held to follow it. The President is the final arbiter of what is classified and what is not. If the nuclear codes were declassified by the President, then they were declassified. No PRA can circumvent that.

Point 1- Obama did obtain a number of documents post presidency however they were obtained legally through the correct channels.  I am not aware of any documents Bill Clinton took or that he was ever accused of it.  You can fuss about Hillary however she was never president.  I will also note that Trump actually strengthened the PRA while he was in office.

Point 2 - Even if Obama and Clinton violated the PRA they are equally accountable for it as a crime.  That does not absolve Trump of taking boxes of public records.  Requests to recover them were only partially complied with and only after a subpoena was issued.  Trump could have complied and he would not have been subjected to the search.

Point 3- Unless there is a record of him declassifying every document BEFORE he left office it is still classified.  A former president can not retroactively declassify something.

We do not yet know what the FBI recovered so i will withhold judgement on specifics.  However I will note that Trump appointed both the FBI director and the judge that signed of on the warrant.  You seem to view Trump as an infallible victim but he can't be both a terrible judge of character when it comes to appointments and the brilliant business man who only appoints the best of the best.

[Tom]

FOIA requests are applicable to agency records - not personal property.

Are we going to assume that these documents are in fact Trump's personal property?

What you're supposed to do when you possess these types of powers that the FBI does and Justice Department does is use the least intrusive investigative technique to get to what you need to get to, [whether] it's information, evidence, what have you.

As far as I can tell, that's absolutely the process that was followed, until the conclusion was reached that the documents in question were imminently in danger of loss. The FBI asserts that it has evidence to justify that decision, and frankly -- given the cavalier and hugely unprofessional treatment of state secrets by the Trump administration -- I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt on this one.

[msquared]

Wm would as well as long as it was a Democrat being investigated.  Remember he supports the Blue in all cases except when it involves his guy (just ask teh Capitol Police).

[rightleft22]

The government that would replace the government by those that don't trust government scares me.
I suspect that many aiding consciously or unconsciously in  the undermining of the institutions won't like what they will replace the institutions with but I doubt many have thought that far.

Don't be silly. Correcting government malfeasance is as time-honored an action as is possible. The reason so many people agitate for those responsible for crimes in the Democrat Party is because they seem to have gotten away with Sedition, Treason, or personal graft. The Biden Crime Family is credited with at least $31 million of blackmailable slush money. All a National Security Threat. The best response possible is to throw those predators in jail and show future criminals what can happen to them by misbehaving. Nothing for the good guys to be denigrated for.

If your review your method of reasoning, what qualifies as fact, who/what can and can not be believed and trusted - who gets to determine those truths you do not end is democracy type of government and that impact on what is considered Law and Order though you might not notice until you find yourself on the wrong side of it. 
I suspect you can't image ever finding yourself on the wrong side of the law and order you are arguing for. Having others use your reasoning methods as to what counts a fact and truth against you.

[yossarian22c]

You know Trump has a copy of the warrant, right?  They have to give him a copy and a receipt for what they took. Since you do not know what the warrant said how do you know they had no right to raid FLOTUS wardrobe?  And bringing a safe cracker to open a safe that is most likely part of the subject of the raid seems perfectly legal to me.

From all that I have read this seems like a perfectly legal execution of a legal search warrant.

No. Trump’s lawyer Christina Bobb was only shown part of the warrant. For your understanding, the warrant in question was released early by Trump to the public - but holds little info. The withheld info is all in the affidavit that verified the need for an emergency raid.
...

Here's what the AG said.

The former president publicly confirmed the search that evening, as is his right. Copies of both the warrant and the FBI property receipt were provided on the day of the search to the former president's counsel, who was on site during the search.

The search warrant was authorized by a federal court upon the required finding of probable cause. The property receipt is a document that federal law requires law enforcement agents to leave with the property owner. The department filed the motion to make public the warrant and receipt in light of the former president's public confirmation with the search, the surrounding circumstances and the substantial public interest in this matter.
...
First, I personally approved the decision to seek a search warrant in this matter. Second, the department does not take such a decision lightly. Where possible, it is standard practice to seek less intrusive means as an alternative to a search, and to narrowly scope any search that is undertaken.
...

So Trump has the full warrant. He could release it. Trump wants all the affidavits. He wants to know who in his employ or circle told the FBI he was holding back on giving them the subpoenaed documents.

“Trumpworld is abuzz with speculation about which close aide or aides has ‘flipped’ and provided additional sensitive information to the FBI about what former President Trump was keeping at Mar-a-Lago,” Axios reported this morning, citing several sources.

Newsweek, meanwhile, cites two senior government sources claiming that the FBI’s warrant to search Mar-a-Lago was based on information from a confidential human source “who was able to identify what classified documents former President Trump was still hiding.”

https://news.yahoo.com/trumpworld-smells-rat-someone-inner-211821350.html

[Wayward Son]

The Wall Street Journal reports on what was removed from Mar-a-Lago.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation agents took around 20 boxes of items, binders of photos, a handwritten note and the executive grant of clemency for Mr. Trump’s ally Roger Stone, a list of items removed from the property shows. Also included in the list was information about the “President of France,” according to the three-page list. The list is contained in a seven-page document that also includes the warrant to search the premises which was granted by a federal magistrate judge in Florida.

The list includes references to one set of documents marked as “Various classified/TS/SCI documents,” an abbreviation that refers to top-secret/sensitive compartmented information. It also says agents collected four sets of top secret documents, three sets of secret documents, and three sets of confidential documents. The list didn’t provide any more details about the substance of the documents.

Mr. Trump’s lawyers argue that the former president used his authority to declassify the material before he left office. While a president has the power to declassify documents, there are federal regulations that lay out a process for doing so.

The search and seizure warrant, signed by U.S. Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart, shows that FBI agents sought to search “the 45 Office,” as well as “all storage rooms and all other rooms or areas within the premises used or available to be used by [the former president] and his staff and in which boxes or documents could be stored, including all structures or buildings on the estate.”

This is information that has not yet been authorized by the judge overseeing the search warrant.

[wmLambert]

We don't know if the TS/SCI documents were identified in the warrant. The itemized contents was broad and non-specific. All can be assumed to have been declassified. Any dissatisfaction with that by the librarian must be adjudicated. There will be severe push-back here on everything alleged.

The primary Trump opinion is that there was nothing that merited a raid. Anything discovered to be important to the raiders would have  been easily handed over without the intrusive raid. NARA says Obama's millions of pages of documents were handled according to law and were secured by NARA even though in possession of Obama. It is up to a court to decide if NARA has more power than the President to declassify documents. If declassified NARA has no authority to control it.

The major aspects to compare is the difference between a wide-open server (Hillary's) which resulted in the death of an Iranian scientist and safe-guarded non-classified info not open to disclosure nor hacking. Hillary also could not declassify anything.

There is no argument that Trump declassified this material and agreed to the NARA requests for safe-guarding anything they were unnecessarily nervous about. He has stated he did follow all their requests for security. More details will reveal more -  but be careful to see the slant put on by the instigators of this raid. There was nothing taken in this raid that would not have been given over by a simple request without the political chicanery.

[wmLambert]

In the spirit of this thread, Trump scores more victories:

Eric Trump posted, "DonaldJTrump.com is shattering all fundraising records and I’m told has raised more money in the past 24 hours than ever before in recent history! The American people are pissed!” The more the RINO-Left attacks Trump, the greater he grows. They just can't learn.