Author Topic: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...  (Read 11245 times)

TheDrake

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #200 on: June 08, 2022, 10:25:51 AM »
The point you guys continue to ignore, for obvious reasons, is that the Taliban secured the unconditional surrender of US forces. They did it without WMDs or even any air support. How do square that reality with your WMD requirements fantasy?

How do you square your fantasy? Countries facing an existential threat don't give up and walk away. We got defeated in Vietnam, because we could walk away.  Soviets in Afghanistan. British in India and America. Your hypothetical civil war isn't something the United States government or its military forces could walk away from. Even the Basque have a better chance than the Michigan Militia fantasy scenario, because at least theoretically France and Spain could let them win and their countries would exist largely intact. You're going to have to render the United States armed forces incapable of fighting back, either by your backyard armaments or by convincing enough soldiers to stage a coup in defense of the Constitution, to which they swore their oath. You'll certainly find people within those ranks who will do that under the right circumstances, but they will likely be ineffective unless military leadership decides to jump in. You'll need command and control and bases from which to launch operations, like civil war forts. You could drag it out interminably, like the Basque ETA. Even our own history with the American Revolution, we're unlikely to be successful without French help dividing British forces and adding naval power. Which foreign nation do you fancy is going to supply your league of patriots? Who is going to make sure you have long range rockets? The entire concept is laughably naive.

Wayward Son

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #201 on: June 08, 2022, 11:09:34 AM »
And how can you feel safe knowing that their next-door neighbor has a 10-kiloton atomic bomb, and you don't??

My god, how could you possibly defend yourself? ;)

You think the next door neighbor can shell out millions to aquire a nuclear bomb and the roughy $1.8 million per year to maintain it? Really?

My god, do you even hear yourself?

<Doing my best Foghorm Leghorn impression> It's a joke, son.  You're supposed to laugh.  ;D

Tom

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #202 on: June 08, 2022, 11:20:10 AM »
Drake, I am extremely reluctant to speak for Crunch, because he intentionally ekes out responses in a limited way to avoid over-extending, but I would imagine that his imagined acts of rebellion are not a full-scale, "America has fallen" kind of scenario but rather the sort of limited violent opposition that has historically been able to work: the KKK, or the Bundy Standoff, or even the temporary Portland Autonomous Zone. There's ample evidence to suggest that, as long as you're a white person, being willing to shoot the factotums sent by the government to enforce their edicts will occasionally result in one or two deaths but also a revocation of some or all of those edicts. Don't try it on behalf of non-white people, though.

TheDrake

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #203 on: June 08, 2022, 11:51:32 AM »
Drake, I am extremely reluctant to speak for Crunch, because he intentionally ekes out responses in a limited way to avoid over-extending, but I would imagine that his imagined acts of rebellion are not a full-scale, "America has fallen" kind of scenario but rather the sort of limited violent opposition that has historically been able to work: the KKK, or the Bundy Standoff, or even the temporary Portland Autonomous Zone. There's ample evidence to suggest that, as long as you're a white person, being willing to shoot the factotums sent by the government to enforce their edicts will occasionally result in one or two deaths but also a revocation of some or all of those edicts. Don't try it on behalf of non-white people, though.

I won't speak for Crunch either, but the majority of 2A yahoos picture themselves as modern day minutemen, not symbolic resistance like Bundy. You could look at situations like the repeal of the Stamp Act as bowing to violent resistance as well, but as we know that ultimately never resolved the issues. Bundy made a big show of telling patriots that it was "time". That's why I was trying to clarify when Crunch would consider it "time". Because the sufficiently unhinged can consider a parking ticket to be tyranny, and I don't want them to be armed at all, or at the least armed as little as possible, or at the least delayed in getting their hands on arms and ammunition. The threat of armed terror against public officials, including law enforcement, is actually even worse than sacrificing a couple of dozen kids per year to the volcano of freedom.

Crunch

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #204 on: June 08, 2022, 01:03:36 PM »
The point you guys continue to ignore, for obvious reasons, is that the Taliban secured the unconditional surrender of US forces. They did it without WMDs or even any air support. How do square that reality with your WMD requirements fantasy?

How do you square your fantasy? Countries facing an existential threat don't give up and walk away. We got defeated in Vietnam, because we could walk away.  Soviets in Afghanistan. British in India and America. Your hypothetical civil war isn't something the United States government or its military forces could walk away from. Even the Basque have a better chance than the Michigan Militia fantasy scenario, because at least theoretically France and Spain could let them win and their countries would exist largely intact. You're going to have to render the United States armed forces incapable of fighting back, either by your backyard armaments or by convincing enough soldiers to stage a coup in defense of the Constitution, to which they swore their oath. You'll certainly find people within those ranks who will do that under the right circumstances, but they will likely be ineffective unless military leadership decides to jump in.

This is a common foundation for the fantasy of military power - despite the indisputable fact it's been disproven.

Can the military walk away from it? Well, turns out that military operations on US soil are against the law except in very narrow circumstances (18 U.S. Code § 1385). It would be quite the needle to thread to get the military to accept orders for offensive action against US citizens on US soil. Here's a fun fact, when I was in they did a study that seemed like everyone in the military was required to participate. They asked us if so ordered, would we attack a US city/state? They've done this a few times I'm aware of and the results typically fall in the range of 30% to 50% saying they would not. Think about it, you got some guy from Kansas City taking a bomber through his childhood neighborhood and dropping ordinance, he's pretty much not going to do it. Nor would a soldier or marine go house to house on a search and destroy mission with the people he knew growing up inside. You would get people that refuse those orders and they would likely have the legal cover to do so since they are almost certainly illegal orders. But if they were legal, you still ain't getting soldiers and airmen to kill their neighbors, the only question is how many?

Let's just take the low end, 30% would refuse to kill their fellow citizens. Do you know what percentage starts degrading combat effectiveness. 30%. The range varies but with 50% to 69% of the military available and willing, the US military will be struggling or fail to accomplish objectives. They would start this fantasy civil war already teetering on the edge of combat effectiveness. The US has about 1.4 million people in its military. At 30% it would be down to just under a million. The US has over 17 million veterans, many are combat tested and trained on the same equipment the US military is using. If only 10% of them joined the war and fought, it would be essentially number parity or slight advantage to the non-government forces. Plus, they would be armed with the deadliest weapon ever to grace the battlefield, the AR15. Not to mention all the civilians that would join in.

Look, if the Taliban was able to force the US to surrender when they're using nothing more than rusty AKs and sketchy IEDs and have the training of a 5th-century goat herder, then a well trained and motivated force like the US veterans in the civilian population is going to be a hell of a thing to handle. It would make the first civil war seem tame by comparison.

That's the beauty of the second amendment, people like you cannot enslave others by force. If you try, the cost will be so high as to make success unpalatable.

rightleft22

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #205 on: June 08, 2022, 01:19:51 PM »
Quote
Look, if the Taliban was able to force the US to surrender when they're using nothing more than rusty AKs and sketchy IEDs

Interesting take.
I might argue that US Militarily force failed to eliminate the Taliban and get the Afghanistan people to stand up against them.
At some level the people of Afghanistan were never and are not willing to fight the Taliban.

IF the US surrendered to was to the inevitable reality that it could not force (enslave) the Afghan people to defend themselves against the Taliban.

There are to many factors involved to make the claim that the Taliban was able to force the US to surrender when they only had to wait out the invaders/occupier's as has been the history of Afghanistan (if only we learned from history) - Afghan was a lost in 2003
« Last Edit: June 08, 2022, 01:30:08 PM by rightleft22 »

rightleft22

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #206 on: June 08, 2022, 01:31:04 PM »
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That's the beauty of the second amendment, people like you cannot enslave others by force. If you try, the cost will be so high as to make success unpalatable.

Not people like me but people not like me, those with the guns, get to?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2022, 01:33:20 PM by rightleft22 »

TheDrake

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #207 on: June 08, 2022, 01:41:24 PM »
So your premise, Crunch, is that the Michigan Militia will be more likely to find it acceptable to kill our men and women in service of the Constitution than the reverse? Now there, I might not be able to argue with you. Fanatics are always more likely to dehumanize their enemies and kill them.

Tom

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #208 on: June 08, 2022, 01:47:25 PM »
To be fair, there is a significant movement among conservatives to infiltrate both the police and the military so that, in the event of armed rebellion, individuals might coordinate their efforts and turn traitor at the most opportune time. I do not think that an armed rebellion against the American government would necessarily be doomed to fail, but it's not because I don't think military hardware would be necessary for victory; I think there's a non-zero chance that enough members of our active military are already within spitting distance of treason that the traitors would have access to hardware and would, as Crunch points out, be significantly more willing to use it.

Fenring

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #209 on: June 08, 2022, 02:47:17 PM »
Look, if the Taliban was able to force the US to surrender

You keep resting your argument on this...but it's beyond weird that you have this idea that the Taliban forced the U.S. to do anything. The U.S. chose to leave, because it was no longer politically viable or useful to be there. Maybe the poppy fields weren't enough of a reason anymore. Whatever it was, the "force" of the Tablian was insignificant in the equation. If the U.S. had felt like staying there they easily could have. This is the basis of your idea that civilian resistance against government can be effective using nothing but assault rifles?

Crunch

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #210 on: June 08, 2022, 03:12:23 PM »
So your premise, Crunch, is that the Michigan Militia will be more likely to find it acceptable to kill our men and women in service of the Constitution than the reverse?
No.  ::)

Crunch

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #211 on: June 08, 2022, 03:18:37 PM »
Look, if the Taliban was able to force the US to surrender

You keep resting your argument on this...but it's beyond weird that you have this idea that the Taliban forced the U.S. to do anything. The U.S. chose to leave, because it was no longer politically viable or useful to be there. Maybe the poppy fields weren't enough of a reason anymore. Whatever it was, the "force" of the Tablian was insignificant in the equation. If the U.S. had felt like staying there they easily could have. This is the basis of your idea that civilian resistance against government can be effective using nothing but assault rifles?

But you know what, they didn't. You can say the US "chose" to leave but the reality is the US did, in fact, surrender the battlespace to the Taliban - running away so quickly that they left billions in equipment behind. If the US "chose" to leave, they would have done so in a way that did not arm the enemy. The lesson of the Taliban and the North Vietnamese is that a small, outgunned, determined enemy can force the US to "choose" to surrender (or whatever euphemism you prefer). If it came down to it, how long do you think it would take for the US government to "choose" to exit a civil war against a much better trained, better armed, and equally determined enemy? I can tell you one thing, it won't be 20 years.

Fenring

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #212 on: June 08, 2022, 03:28:23 PM »
But you know what, they didn't. You can say the US "chose" to leave but the reality is the US did, in fact, surrender the battlespace to the Taliban - running away so quickly that they left billions in equipment behind. If the US "chose" to leave, they would have done so in a way that did not arm the enemy.

So you think the hastily-planned exit was a result of conditions where - after 20 years of occupation - the Taliban suddenly achieved a superior position? Because the right-wing interpretation of events seems to typically be that Biden botched the exit in the (failed) attempt to make the exit a surprise. What advantage he could have gained by such a surprise I don't know, but it may have involved throwing allies under the bus. What any of that has to do with Taliban resistance or how this speaks to the 2nd amendment is beyond me.

rightleft22

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #213 on: June 08, 2022, 04:26:44 PM »
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But you know what, they didn't. You can say the US "chose" to leave but the reality is the US did, in fact, surrender the battlespace to the Taliban - running away so quickly that they left billions in equipment behind

I couldn't verify but heard suggestions that the Military delayed bringing back equipment (planning a proper withdraw) to force Badin's hand in staying longer and or assumed Biden would change his mind. That leaving that equipment behind benefited the military complex.... not that anything can be proved so the rule of charity states we ought to accept that the Military assumed the Afghan forces would hold, at least long enough to, withdraw in a orderly manner.

In my books the failure of the orderly withdraw lands fully on the Military

Crunch

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #214 on: June 08, 2022, 04:30:25 PM »
But you know what, they didn't. You can say the US "chose" to leave but the reality is the US did, in fact, surrender the battlespace to the Taliban - running away so quickly that they left billions in equipment behind. If the US "chose" to leave, they would have done so in a way that did not arm the enemy.

So you think the hastily-planned exit was a result of conditions where - after 20 years of occupation - the Taliban suddenly achieved a superior position? Because the right-wing interpretation of events seems to typically be that Biden botched the exit in the (failed) attempt to make the exit a surprise. What advantage he could have gained by such a surprise I don't know, but it may have involved throwing allies under the bus. What any of that has to do with Taliban resistance or how this speaks to the 2nd amendment is beyond me.

The point you’re avoiding is that a poorly armed and trained force defeated the US military. Now, you can try to blame that on the dementia addled “president “ - and be accurate in that assessment. But the bottom line is the taliban won. They got their country back and the US out. Nothing you say will change that fact.

Crunch

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #215 on: June 08, 2022, 04:31:18 PM »
Quote
But you know what, they didn't. You can say the US "chose" to leave but the reality is the US did, in fact, surrender the battlespace to the Taliban - running away so quickly that they left billions in equipment behind

I couldn't verify but heard suggestions that the Military delayed bringing back equipment (planning a proper withdraw) to force Badin's hand in staying longer and or assumed Biden would change his mind. That leaving that equipment behind benefited the military complex.... not that anything can be proved so the rule of charity states we ought to accept that the Military assumed the Afghan forces would hold, at least long enough to, withdraw in a orderly manner.

In my books the failure of the orderly withdraw lands fully on the Military

And who was the commander in chief of the military during this debacle?

Fenring

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #216 on: June 08, 2022, 04:39:49 PM »
The point you’re avoiding is that a poorly armed and trained force defeated the US military. Now, you can try to blame that on the dementia addled “president “ - and be accurate in that assessment. But the bottom line is the taliban won. They got their country back and the US out. Nothing you say will change that fact.

So according to your definition of "defeated", if I punch someone until they are just lying there, and eventually I get bored and walk away, they have "defeated me"?

rightleft22

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #217 on: June 08, 2022, 04:54:06 PM »
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The point you’re avoiding is that a poorly armed and trained force defeated the US military
Not the first time.

History clearly shows the occupation or aid or however you want to put it in a country that did not ask for it will fail more times then not.

Who was in charge when Afghan mission tipped over into inevitable failure - Bush. Why it took so long to admit that fact? I suspect money though the rule of charity forces me to answer more kindly
 - because we really arn't that smart. 

rightleft22

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #218 on: June 08, 2022, 04:59:45 PM »
I'm hearing the types of arguments Chruch is making more and more often. My thought is in perpetration of justification for violent action the next time a election does no go the way a group making such arguments goes.

But they would be taking such action for the sake of everyone's freedom - just as they define and enforce it to be for everyone. No contradictions as the government they setup would not be a government.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2022, 05:02:32 PM by rightleft22 »

Crunch

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #219 on: June 08, 2022, 06:00:02 PM »
The point you’re avoiding is that a poorly armed and trained force defeated the US military. Now, you can try to blame that on the dementia addled “president “ - and be accurate in that assessment. But the bottom line is the taliban won. They got their country back and the US out. Nothing you say will change that fact.

So according to your definition of "defeated", if I punch someone until they are just lying there, and eventually I get bored and walk away, they have "defeated me"?

Nope. Wanna try again?

Crunch

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #220 on: June 08, 2022, 06:01:17 PM »
I'm hearing the types of arguments Chruch is making more and more often. My thought is in perpetration of justification for violent action the next time a election does no go the way a group making such arguments goes.

But they would be taking such action for the sake of everyone's freedom - just as they define and enforce it to be for everyone. No contradictions as the government they setup would not be a government.

Incredible you say this with the assassination attempt on kavanaugh. Completely tone deaf.

Crunch

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #221 on: June 08, 2022, 06:02:52 PM »
Quote
The point you’re avoiding is that a poorly armed and trained force defeated the US military
Not the first time.

History clearly shows the occupation or aid or however you want to put it in a country that did not ask for it will fail more times then not.

Who was in charge when Afghan mission tipped over into inevitable failure - Bush. Why it took so long to admit that fact? I suspect money though the rule of charity forces me to answer more kindly
 - because we really arn't that smart.

Has to be Bush. Right? Can’t be Obama, no way! It was 20 years and one single guy from 12 years ago is the reason. Nothing anyone could’ve done, the outcome inevitable. Jesus

Fenring

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #222 on: June 08, 2022, 06:17:51 PM »
The point you’re avoiding is that a poorly armed and trained force defeated the US military. Now, you can try to blame that on the dementia addled “president “ - and be accurate in that assessment. But the bottom line is the taliban won. They got their country back and the US out. Nothing you say will change that fact.

So according to your definition of "defeated", if I punch someone until they are just lying there, and eventually I get bored and walk away, they have "defeated me"?

Nope. Wanna try again?

I would rate your reading comprehension...of your own statement, to be very weak if you can't see how this conclusion follows. You claim the Taliban "defeated" the U.S., and 'defeated' according to you means the U.S. decided to leave. It's simply a tautological statement, and if you can't see that then as Tom has pointed out it seems unlikely you are interested in seeing it.

Tom

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #223 on: June 08, 2022, 06:57:09 PM »
Just in case not everyone's read the news: the assassination attempt on Kavanaugh consisted of one guy from California with a Glock, a knife, and some "tactical" webbing who took a taxi to Kavanaugh's house, walked around the block, and then called the authorities on himself.

jc44

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #224 on: June 09, 2022, 06:07:08 AM »
The point you’re avoiding is that a poorly armed and trained force defeated the US military. Now, you can try to blame that on the dementia addled “president “ - and be accurate in that assessment. But the bottom line is the taliban won. They got their country back and the US out. Nothing you say will change that fact.

So according to your definition of "defeated", if I punch someone until they are just lying there, and eventually I get bored and walk away, they have "defeated me"?

Nope. Wanna try again?

I would rate your reading comprehension...of your own statement, to be very weak if you can't see how this conclusion follows. You claim the Taliban "defeated" the U.S., and 'defeated' according to you means the U.S. decided to leave. It's simply a tautological statement, and if you can't see that then as Tom has pointed out it seems unlikely you are interested in seeing it.
As I see it

Initially the USA (+ allies, but its an American driven operation) successfully drove the Taliban from power
Then for many years they suppressed the Taliban.  They found it impossible to eliminate them.
There were very inconsistent attempts at aid / nation building. This phase was generally a failure.
After seeing no end point to the operation and having suffered a political change that tends towards isolationism they go "Can't be bothered any more" and withdraw.
Everyone expects the abandoned Afghan government to fall in a year or so.
Everyone (on all sides) is surprised when it only takes a month or so.

So assuming that the objective was to leave Afghanistan a stable West leaning state then something failed (and if it wasn't what was the objective? revenge?). Now whether you think it was the Govt or the Military or both probably depends on your politics and how much you conflate the Govt with the Military and whether or not you think it should have been possible to eliminate the Taliban and/or build a functional national government.

Now at this point does defeat equate with "failure to achieve objectives"? Probably not (there is a gap between defeat and victory), but its close enough for a politician, and certainly close enough if you want an argument.

TheDrake

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #225 on: June 09, 2022, 07:37:15 AM »
Just in case not everyone's read the news: the assassination attempt on Kavanaugh consisted of one guy from California with a Glock, a knife, and some "tactical" webbing who took a taxi to Kavanaugh's house, walked around the block, and then called the authorities on himself.

Let's see. Planning an assassination, armed reconnaissance of the target's home, sounds a lot like the Whitmer situation. This guy deserves to go to jail just like they do. "The libs" are no more behind this guy or approving of him than most conservatives are of Fox and his friends.

Meanwhile, we now have the distraction of discussing the Taliban, which has nothing to do with a hypothetical armed insurrection within the United States.

I wonder why our resident revolutionaries don't want to define when it is that they plan to start shooting at the National Guard? Are the plans already underway? If midterms don't go the way everyone is predicting for Republicans, they rise up to defeat the evil Soros who wants to burden us with universal healthcare?

rightleft22

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #226 on: June 09, 2022, 10:14:13 AM »
Quote
The point you’re avoiding is that a poorly armed and trained force defeated the US military
Not the first time.

History clearly shows the occupation or aid or however you want to put it in a country that did not ask for it will fail more times then not.

Who was in charge when Afghan mission tipped over into inevitable failure - Bush. Why it took so long to admit that fact? I suspect money though the rule of charity forces me to answer more kindly
 - because we really arn't that smart.

Has to be Bush. Right? Can’t be Obama, no way! It was 20 years and one single guy from 12 years ago is the reason. Nothing anyone could’ve done, the outcome inevitable. Jesus

When Bush took his eyes off Afghanistan and onto Iraq the Taliban were given breathing space to regroup when they were about to fully collapse.  Afghanistan became a backwater engagement and concern .Years latter there was a attempt at nation building - to create a Afghanistan into a image of the US without taking into account the Afghan people as people.
Bush Administration blew it, Obama Administration inherited a bad situation and allowed it to continue knowing it was likely a lost cause  for that they are responsible. Trump Administration knew it was a lost cause and Trump wanted out for which he ought to be given credit. Sadly his deal with the Taliban was a death sentence for the Afghan government and he continued to listen to the Hawks who kept delaying any exit. For not following his gut in this situation he is responsible. Biden said he would leave, the military hawks didn't fully sport that, and still he did it and ripped the bandage off.  A mess all around and blame for everyone.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2022, 10:16:37 AM by rightleft22 »

yossarian22c

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #227 on: June 09, 2022, 11:00:08 AM »
...
 Sadly his deal with the Taliban was a death sentence for the Afghan government and he continued to listen to the Hawks who kept delaying any exit. For not following his gut in this situation he is responsible. Biden said he would leave, the military hawks didn't fully sport that, and still he did it and ripped the bandage off.  A mess all around and blame for everyone.

You don't get it. Trump's deal with the Taliban was Perfect (tm)  ::). Afghanistan was a land of milk, honey, and poppy flowers until the evil Joe Biden ruined it all by delaying the American withdrawal by 3 months.

Crunch

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #228 on: June 09, 2022, 05:13:56 PM »
The point you’re avoiding is that a poorly armed and trained force defeated the US military. Now, you can try to blame that on the dementia addled “president “ - and be accurate in that assessment. But the bottom line is the taliban won. They got their country back and the US out. Nothing you say will change that fact.

So according to your definition of "defeated", if I punch someone until they are just lying there, and eventually I get bored and walk away, they have "defeated me"?

Nope. Wanna try again?

I would rate your reading comprehension...of your own statement, to be very weak if you can't see how this conclusion follows. You claim the Taliban "defeated" the U.S., and 'defeated' according to you means the U.S. decided to leave. It's simply a tautological statement, and if you can't see that then as Tom has pointed out it seems unlikely you are interested in seeing it.

JFC  ::)

TheDrake

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #229 on: June 09, 2022, 05:35:14 PM »
Quote
“I did, I spoke to the leader of the Taliban today, we had a good conversation,” Trump told reporters as he left the White House, adding that he and Taliban leaders “agreed there is no violence, we don’t want violence.”

If only Mike Pence had refused to certify the electoral count, we'd have perfect relations with a free Afghanistan. Trump surely would have guaranteed us victory, just like I wrote about in my MAGA fan fiction!

jc44

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #230 on: June 10, 2022, 05:10:34 AM »
Quote
“I did, I spoke to the leader of the Taliban today, we had a good conversation,” Trump told reporters as he left the White House, adding that he and Taliban leaders “agreed there is no violence, we don’t want violence.”

If only Mike Pence had refused to certify the electoral count, we'd have perfect relations with a free Afghanistan. Trump surely would have guaranteed us victory, just like I wrote about in my MAGA fan fiction!
To be fair to Trump there was surprisingly little violence - the Taliban just took over.  Maybe that was the deal?

LetterRip

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #231 on: June 10, 2022, 10:41:18 AM »
Trumps deal with the Taliban is that they wouldn't attack American soldiers in exchange for the US leaving Afghanistan.  The Taliban negotiated with the Afghanistan military officers to have the officers give the Taliban all of the weapons and not try and stop the Taliban in exchange for money.  Since the officers didn't have any loyalty to Afghanistan, but only tribal loyalties - and the tribes didn't generally oppose the Taliban, these officers didn't have any qualms with doing so.  The 'bribe the officers' trick was done by the British many years prior in Afghanistan, so it had precedent for being an effective tactic.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #232 on: June 10, 2022, 02:57:35 PM »
So this was all known?

And Biden did what he did anyway?

If that was the deal, it seems like Biden should have made a new deal because that deal was really dumb.

"Alrighty then Taliban, we'll leave and give you Afghanistan and in return you agree not to hit us in the butt on the way out."

So Biden knew all that and he said yeah, well a deal's a deal so we don't want to look like welchers now do we?

If Trump knew that what happened was what was going to happen then it makes perfect sense not to pull out, so he didn't. Maybe he was rope a doping the Taliban to buy time and security for a while. In any case, Biden going along with that deal is still Biden's fault because he could have set his own conditions but chose not to, for instance we'll get out of the country but if the Taliban stays out in the tribal areas but if they try to topple the government then we'll surge back in. But nooooo... Biden made it clear that we're getting out come hell or high water and to hell with Afghanistan. That's on Biden.

-------------------------------

Bringing it back to school shootings (somehow), the Taliban's official policy is to shoot little girls who are going to school in the head like they did to Nobel Peace Prize winner Malala.  And the Democrats are okay with giving the same guys who did that control of the whole country. Kind of like how the police weren't willing to go into a dangerous situation to save those children (unless it was one of their children in there), Biden felt no differently about the girls in schools in Afghanistan. Biden gave the whole country to an organization whose official policy is school shootings.

Tom

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #233 on: June 10, 2022, 03:37:42 PM »
Setting to one side the obviously inflammatory, stupid "Democrats don't care if governments shoot girls in the face" crap, cherry, can I confirm that your official position is that Biden is ultimately to blame for the negative consequences of any action Trump and/or his administration took that Biden's government was not willing or able to reverse?

cherrypoptart

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #234 on: June 10, 2022, 05:56:06 PM »
Yes?

cherrypoptart

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #235 on: June 10, 2022, 06:00:07 PM »
It's not so much that Democrats don't care as it is that they aren't going to do anything effective to improve the situation on school shootings either here or abroad.

Tom

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #236 on: June 10, 2022, 06:30:56 PM »
Would you also clarify: if Biden's administration attempts to reverse one of Trump's actions, but is prevented by Congress, and that action has negative consequences, do you believe that Biden or Congress is more to blame (understanding, of course, that Trump cannot be blamed even if it was originally his policy)?

cherrypoptart

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #237 on: June 11, 2022, 07:58:04 AM »
So we're just going to play the blame game?

Who's a fault is important though because until people take responsibility for their actions, and until they are held responsible for their actions, we're not going to see positive change.

I suppose nobody wants "their guy" to be responsible for the things that go wrong because if it's ever admitted then it affects the entire agenda including hurting the things they are doing right.

Tom

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #238 on: June 11, 2022, 10:19:03 AM »
Yes, it is very important to me that people recognize that the vast majority of things that Trump did were in fact hugely bad, not only because I really believe that a certain level of corruption genuinely should be punished but also because administrative dysfunction at the highest level of government legitimately causes problems that can take decades to fix. Blaming Biden for the fact that it will take many, many years to fix all of Trump's mistakes winds up disguising the cause(s) of the negative effects we're working to minimize, which grants undeserved cover to exactly those policies that deserve to be recognized as deeply flawed.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #239 on: June 11, 2022, 11:02:27 AM »
And the other side sees things in exactly the opposite way. Most of the major problems we're experiencing now are caused by Biden undoing the things that Trump was getting right. I could list them all again and maybe I will but it's obvious we'd just be going around and around in circles.

I will admit that on school shootings I haven't seen anything from the Republican side that would help very much and it seems like they're pretty much resigned to them being the new normal a lot like the Democrat side seems to be resigned to high levels of crime being preferable to doing what it would take to lower it. The cures are apparently worse than the disease, getting rid of the 2nd Amendment and tough justice, respectively.

TheDrake

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #240 on: June 17, 2022, 07:26:08 PM »
This guy is the type of person that thinks there should be an organized and trained militia to overthrow the US government

I find this kind of person terrifying, because he comes off calm and rational while he describes the need to "take back" the republic. It is going to be people like him that will bundle up in the back of a u-haul one day to strike a blow for freedom. Good thing he won't have any trouble getting the kinds of weapons he'll want.

rightleft22

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #241 on: June 24, 2022, 01:07:14 PM »
Supreme Court ruling expands US gun rights https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61915237
US Senate passes first gun control bill in decades https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61919752

Do we laugh or cry?

My feeling is that the Supreme Court ruling ends the matter, at least for the next 20+ years. There will be no reform
Time for those who wanted reform to recognize they have lost and to let it go and focus mental health aspects which the right won't want to pay for.... unless it comes with guns.   

I am not optimistic for the future.

yossarian22c

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #242 on: June 24, 2022, 01:13:39 PM »
Supreme Court ruling expands US gun rights https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61915237
US Senate passes first gun control bill in decades https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61919752

Do we laugh or cry?

My feeling is that the Supreme Court ruling ends the matter, at least for the next 20+ years. There will be no reform
Time for those who wanted reform to recognize they have lost and to let it go and focus mental health aspects which the right won't want to pay for.... unless it comes with guns.   

I am not optimistic for the future.

Wonder how far the court would go? Do 16 year old's have the right to purchase and carry a gun? Can they carry it to school? Can we only stop and arrest them after they've started shooting people?

Can I carry an AR-15 with an expanded magazine into the supreme court building? I'm guessing the answer to this last question will remain No. Not sure about the rest.

Wayward Son

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #243 on: June 24, 2022, 01:26:15 PM »
Quote
Time for those who wanted reform to recognize they have lost and to let it go...

Are you saying that people who have loved ones who are killed should "let it go?"  That those who are might not have been killed if some stricter laws were passed should say, "Oh well, too bad, so sad.  The 2nd Amendment is so much more important than my child's life.  It's all for the best in the end"?

I don't think that is an option. :(

rightleft22

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #244 on: June 24, 2022, 01:42:26 PM »
Quote
Time for those who wanted reform to recognize they have lost and to let it go...

Are you saying that people who have loved ones who are killed should "let it go?"  That those who are might not have been killed if some stricter laws were passed should say, "Oh well, too bad, so sad.  The 2nd Amendment is so much more important than my child's life.  It's all for the best in the end"?

I don't think that is an option. :(

I don't know... Its been 20+ years I've paid any attention to this issue and nothing has changed in fact things have gone backwards. I don't see anything changing in my life time.
When do you acknowledge your pissing in the wind and change direction.  Focus on change that has some possibility of... who am I kidding

yossarian22c

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #245 on: June 24, 2022, 01:43:59 PM »
Quote
Time for those who wanted reform to recognize they have lost and to let it go...
...
I don't think that is an option. :(

The only option for gun restrictions is probably expanding the court. Any legislation that is likely to be effective is going to be struck down by this SC. Not sure what the options are. Its just bad. Work your ass off for 10 years to raise the age from 18 to 21 or ban expanded capacity magazines. Then have the SC strike it down and expand gun rights 10 months later. Sounds depressing.

Wayward Son

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #246 on: June 24, 2022, 02:08:01 PM »
When the lives of yourself and those you love are on the line, "letting it go" is not an option.  Because how do you "let go" the preventable death of a loved one? ;)

Obviously, what we need is a Constitutional Amendment to clarify the restrictions on possessing a firearm.

Which means, of course, that a lot, lot more people have to die before we can get to that place.   :'(  (Stock market tip: invest in funeral homes.)

But when it's your life on the line, there is no justification to "let go."  You go down swinging because you have nothing to lose.

rightleft22

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #247 on: June 24, 2022, 02:28:05 PM »
"letting go" can mean a lot of things
How far do you go?  Do you hold on so tight it becomes your identity? So attached to a outcome that what's left of ones life becomes miserable?
Could think long term plan and work the system like the Gun Lobby/GOP did... but the DNC doesn't do that kind of thinking/planning. Could I guess put some energy behind that.
And then thier is the insanity question of doing the same things and expecting a different outcome. Letting go could be the letting go of what isn't working.

Polls show a large majority want gun reform but they don't vote that way. A minority of those Pro Life, Pro Gun.... they vote that way full stop. That could be something to think about.

Still the left does love its moral outrage though (as does the right) maybe we don't want things to change. Unless its our loved ones.... but what are the odds..
« Last Edit: June 24, 2022, 02:38:22 PM by rightleft22 »

TheDrake

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #248 on: June 24, 2022, 03:28:27 PM »
Supreme Court ruling expands US gun rights https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61915237
US Senate passes first gun control bill in decades https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61919752

Do we laugh or cry?

My feeling is that the Supreme Court ruling ends the matter, at least for the next 20+ years. There will be no reform
Time for those who wanted reform to recognize they have lost and to let it go and focus mental health aspects which the right won't want to pay for.... unless it comes with guns.   

I am not optimistic for the future.

Wonder how far the court would go? Do 16 year old's have the right to purchase and carry a gun? Can they carry it to school? Can we only stop and arrest them after they've started shooting people?

Can I carry an AR-15 with an expanded magazine into the supreme court building? I'm guessing the answer to this last question will remain No. Not sure about the rest.

I guess it means that the people protesting at Brett's house can be fully armed now?

TheDrake

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #249 on: June 24, 2022, 04:21:53 PM »
I suppose the states that don't like the ruling on 2nd Amendment can render it void by seceding. Because they ain't gonna get any amendment through.

Quote
One troubling sign of our deteriorating civic mood is the shocking breadth of support for secession in the United States. At a time of widespread polarization—where people are arguing over a supposedly stolen election, vaccine mandates, mask-wearing, and the reality of climate change—a September 2020 Hofstra University poll found that “nearly 40 percent of likely voters would support state secession if their candidate loses.” This was followed by a YouGov and Bright Line Watch survey last June that revealed that 37% of Americans supported a “willingness to secede” when asked: “Would you support or oppose [your state] seceding from the United States to join a new union with [list of states in new union]?” Support for doing this was highest in the South and among Republicans.

But liberals are interested, too. In a July 2021 University of Virginia poll, 41% of Biden supporters (as well as 52% of Trump voters) were at least somewhat in agreement with the idea “that it’s time to split the country, favoring blue/red states seceding from the union.”

In that survey, two very different groups were open to such an action: those living in conservative Southern states, who wanted to avoid liberal dictates from the national government, and people on the West Coast and Northeast, who favored enacting legislation favored by liberal voters.

If the inconceivable scenario of secession somehow came to fruition, it is an open question whether the United States would end up with two or many countries. Since political polarization plays out unevenly across the nation, one could imagine a situation similar to Europe where a number of separate entities would emerge, including a contingent of Southern states, the Northeast, the heartland, the West Coast, and rural parts of Oregon and Washington joining nearby states.
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