Author Topic: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?  (Read 4500 times)

Grant

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #150 on: October 13, 2022, 06:08:44 PM »
Grant,

Your healthcare calculation does not wash. Is Germany, even now, a NATO slacker?

What exactly doesn't wash?  If anything my calculation was low.  Apparently it isn't $40 billion, but $50 billion.  Not 1/20th of the entire military budget, but 1/16th.  As much as all F-35s purchased by the DoD and two Virginia class nuclear submarines in 2021. 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34244754/

Sorry.  Where are your receipts? 

Germany spends 1.49% of it's GDP on defense.  That's certainly less than the United States' 3.57%.  But as I mentioned, the money Germany spends goes further than the United States' does when it comes to defending NATO against Russia.  A German dollar is right there.  For every dollar the United States spends, it has to spend another 2 dollars just to get the equipment over there.  That's why we try to forward deploy our stuff in Poland and Germany.  It's also cheaper to move the Air Force, but the Air Force can't do it all alone and is particularly vulnerable during a nuclear war, while your army units can spread out, dig in like Wall-E, and decon. 

How much of the United States' entire defense budget actually goes to defending Europe?  Even half the Navy?  Only 6th Fleet?  Maybe 2nd Fleet?  The Pacific has 3rd and 7th and the Mideast gets the 5th.  Less than half.  How much of the Air Force?  Good news with that is you can move the Air Force easy and fast.  But you still need to keep stuff in the Pacific.  How about the Army?  How much of it do we have deployed in USAREUR?  2nd ACR?  The 173rd out of Vicenza?  They havn't had Sheridans since 1993 or something.  You want to try and drop the XVIII Corps into Europe? Not quite sure if the 82nd and 101st and 10th Mountain are what you need against Russia.  They were perfect for Afghanistan, not Eastern Europe.  You can pull in III Corps, but that's going to take a LONG TIME and a LOT OF MONEY to get all those heavy units there.  So, maybe a third of the US Army is available to fight in Europe. 

That means only about 1.2 to 1.5% of the US's GDP is going to defend Europe.  Exactly the same as Germany's.  Damn slackers.  Especially when Germany has two Armored Divisions they can just mount up fuel up and drive into Poland or Ukraine.  Not fly or ship halfway around the world, along with all their ammo and fuel and food. 


noel c.

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #151 on: October 13, 2022, 06:29:32 PM »
Aris,

”Persons used to count as 3/5th of a citizen, no, for purposes of representation?”

No, not exactly; negro “persons” counted as 3/5 of a person.

Is your point that States south of the Mason Dixon line should have had greater representation in Congress prior to 1860, that in 1870 persons of ”African nativity… and descent should not be entitled to naturalization” (15th amendment), that the 14th amendment has some application in to issues contained in this thread, or some combination thereof?

noel c.

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #152 on: October 13, 2022, 06:45:09 PM »
Grant,

What exactly doesn't wash?  If anything my calculation was low.  Apparently it isn't $40 billion, but $50 billion.  Not 1/20th of the entire military budget, but 1/16th.  As much as all F-35s purchased by the DoD and two Virginia class nuclear submarines in 2021.

You are flailing here with creative accounting. Germany’s relative contribution to NATO is not a function of geography, the cost of Virginia class submarines, the price of an F-35, or even the military budget of Italy.

But I have a suspicion that you already understand that. Your numbers are plain wrong. :

Our first third-world President, to his credit, extracted a 2% GDP commitment from Germany for defense spending in 2014. They were still not meeting that promise under Trump. He called them out, and you freaked. I understand that you have a distaste for the orange one. That is meaningless to me. Contrary to your angst, Germany did not respond negatively but is still lagging;

”However, the German pledge is still a major development — and a potential huge increase in spending. Of the 29 members of NATO, only seven currently meet the 2 percent pledge: the United States, Greece, Estonia, Britain, Romania, Poland and Latvia.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/11/08/germany-finally-pledges-increase-military-spending-nato-levels-trump-still-wont-be-happy/

« Last Edit: October 13, 2022, 06:58:35 PM by noel c. »

Grant

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #153 on: October 13, 2022, 07:27:45 PM »
You are flailing here with creative accounting.

Sorry.  Math is hard, Barbie.  I won't try to explain it again. 

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Our first third-world President

Who?  Orange Messiah?  That's kinda mean.  I know his mom is from Scotland and it's a *censored*hole, with a GDP per capita about half of Mississippi's, but cumon. 

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He called them out, and you freaked.

I did huh? 

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Contrary to your angst, Germany did not respond negatively but is still lagging;

Read the story you linked.  It says Germany promised to raise it up to 2% by 2031.  Orange Messiah didn't do jack.  Pooter is the one to thank for Germany increasing it's defense spending. It's going up even higher and faster now.  Do you think Uncle Joe is the reason?  Sorry, I know math is hard but reading is fundamental. 


noel c.

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #154 on: October 13, 2022, 07:49:11 PM »
Grant,

Can you bring yourself to openly agree that Trump was correct; that Germany should be shouldering a 4% GDP defense budget as the world’s front-line economic power in Europe (and probably now will)? Read the linked article more closely please. Your emotion is getting the better of you. I believe a derangement syndrome was coined to describe your condition.

Is the United States under any practical, or moral, obligation to defend a nation which does not place a high value upon its own self-defense? Was Trump wrong about that?

Likewise Germany should have been more receptive to Trump’s objection to European dependence upon Putin’s energy fix. You have no problem with that proposition, correct?

Complain as you wish about the great dissembler, he is not always wrong. Reading is fundamental, try a reread of the text, and You’re right; math can be tough. Work on it.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2022, 07:54:30 PM by noel c. »

yossarian22c

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #155 on: October 13, 2022, 08:43:43 PM »
Noel, why should he work on convincing you? You can’t even admit you misspoke about Democrats gerrymandering the California governor’s race.

Grant

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #156 on: October 13, 2022, 08:45:59 PM »
Grant,

Can you bring yourself to openly agree that Trump was correct; that Germany should be shouldering a 4% GDP defense budget as the world’s front-line economic power in Europe (and probably now will)?

4%?  Based on what?  Where did that number come from?  Out of some *censored*?  If Germany is taxing it's GDP at 22%, that means 4% would be 18% of it's entire federal budget.  Why should Germany have to pay that much while the United States, France, Italy, or the UK does not?  Do they all not have a dog in the fight?  Is Germany's dog that much bigger?  If so, due to geography, doesn't that mean that Germany will pay a higher price in destroyed property and killed civilians?  What are you and Orange Jeezus basing your judgement of a nation's contribution to a military alliance on?  Money?  Doesn't always win wars.  Russia had a pretty expensive military until recently.  Now it's holding a steaming pile of turd. 

If the Germans want to spend 4% of their GDP on defense, more power to them.  Yeah, it probably could have helped prevent a war if the Germans had spoken up clearly and said that they would have defended Ukraine from Russian attack.  But they didn't.  And having 4% allocated wouldn't have made a difference, because with 2% it would have been enough.  But that's up to the German people to decide.  They're a democracy.  It's not always easy to get a promise of money from a democracy, because that goes to their legislature.  The Chancellor of Germany can say whatever she or he wants. If you want to get more money for defense from Germany, you need to go direct to the German people.  The German people basically went pacifist after 1990.  A whole generation grew up without any concept of a possible war in Europe.  They were all *censored*ing wrong, but that doesn't mean the Great Declassifier was right.  Dispite the difference in funds, Germany can still bring a great deal to the table to defend Europe, outside of it's budget.  Germany can bring two armored divisions to bear in Europe right now.  The United States cannot do that.  The United States brings other things to the table quickly.  In fact the United State's contributions to European defense are even higher than it's defense budget would represent.  So trying to measure contributions to a war effort or a military alliance with spending is useless. 

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Is the United States under any practical, or moral, obligation to defend a nation which does not place a high value upon its own self-defense? Was Trump wrong about that?

Cheetoh Gezus is wrong about measuring a nation's value in it's own self defense in terms of dollars.  But yes, the United States has a practical obligation to defend any nation whose sovereignty is violated by another's by invasion, regardless of their value in their own self defense.  Why let a hostile nation suck up a peaceful one?  Doesn't sound wise.  From a moral standpoint, am I not supposed to help a Quaker being mugged?  Who are you?  I mean, that's specifically why, morally, people want to fight wars.  To defend the helpless and the powerless.  Yes even the foolish.  That's what great power is supposed to come with.  Responsibility to use it.  I mean *censored*, even Spider-Man has that figured out.  He didn't need a *censored*ing philosophy degree.  But I guess you do need some help with that idea. I know *censored*ing Chatte Grabber doesn't understand it.  He's never fought for anything but himself in his life.  He doesn't defend people.  He wanted Germany and ROK to pay the United States for defense.  He's a *censored*ing shake-down artist.  A gangster.  I don't think I have a derangement.  I think I can see him pretty clearly.  Maybe you don't. 

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Likewise Germany should have been more receptive to Trump’s objection to European dependence upon Putin’s energy fix. You have no problem with that proposition, correct?

No, but I'd point out that the United States has been pointing that out to Germany long before Lord T-Rex came on the scene. 

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Complain as you wish about the great dissembler, he is not always wrong.

No,  but he is always a POS.  Because you can't change that, no matter how right or wrong you are.  I know some real idiots that are still better men than him. 

noel c.

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #157 on: October 13, 2022, 10:17:56 PM »
4%?  Based on what?  Where did that number come from?  Out of some *censored*?  If Germany is taxing it's GDP at 22%, that means 4% would be 18% of it's entire federal budget.  Why should Germany have to pay that much while the United States, France, Italy, or the UK does not?  Do they all not have a dog in the fight?  Is Germany's dog that much bigger?  If so, due to geography, doesn't that mean that Germany will pay a higher price in destroyed property and killed civilians?  What are you and Orange Jeezus basing your judgement of a nation's contribution to a military alliance on?  Money?  Doesn't always win wars.  Russia had a pretty expensive military until recently.  Now it's holding a steaming pile of turd.

You are being creative in your accounting again Grant. We spent 3.3% GDP on our defense last year, and do not have a bear in our backyard threatening “Armageddon” every few weeks, and a Winter fuel dependency withdrawal. If Germany cannot suspend its socialist tendencies in favor of survival, it is their political right. They are not, after all, a population of Amish, and Mennonites. Money does not always win wars, but an absence of resources absolutely does. As an aside, give the straw-man “Orange Jesus” crap a rest. You are tilting at windmills.

”If the Germans want to spend 4% of their GDP on defense, more power to them.  Yeah, it probably could have helped prevent a war if the Germans had spoken up clearly and said that they would have defended Ukraine from Russian attack.  But they didn't.  And having 4% allocated wouldn't have made a difference, because with 2% it would have been enough.  But that's up to the German people to decide.  They're a democracy.”

Yes, as I said; “it is their political right”. So is national suicide, and they seem to have an enduring cultural penchant for it.

”It's not always easy to get a promise of money from a democracy, because that goes to their legislature.  The Chancellor of Germany can say whatever she or he wants. If you want to get more money for defense from Germany, you need to go direct to the German people. The German people basically went pacifist after 1990. A whole generation grew up without any concept of a possible war in Europe.  They were all *censored*ing wrong, but that doesn't mean the Great Declassifier was right.”

Ah, but he was right, wasn’t he?

”Dispite the difference in funds, Germany can still bring a great deal to the table to defend Europe, outside of it's budget.  Germany can bring two armored divisions to bear in Europe right now.  The United States cannot do that.  The United States brings other things to the table quickly.  In fact the United State's contributions to European defense are even higher than it's defense budget would represent.  So trying to measure contributions to a war effort or a military alliance with spending is useless.” 

I disagree that spending is not a reasonable measure of contribution to a war effort.

At the present time Germany is unable to drive a single diesel-powered Leopard II across the Ukrainian boarder, and the 30 Gepard anti-aircraft tanks (which they did send) initially had no application, or ammunition. The Ukrainian army recently found a use for them in taking down Iranian drones, so I suppose that is a start. It is leagues above the initial “5,000 free helmets” offer. So much for your artificially assigned value to geographic proximity. In spite of the 4,600 mile distance between New York, and Kiev, the overwhelming technical maintenance challenges, and training obstacles, there are 200 Marine M-1 A1 Abrams tanks that will likely find a home in Ukraine next year; not quite “two divisions”, but close to it.

”Cheeto Jeezus is wrong about measuring a nation's value in it's own self defense in terms of dollars.  But yes, the United States has a practical obligation to defend any nation whose sovereignty is violated by another's by invasion, regardless of their value in their own self defense.  Why let a hostile nation suck up a peaceful one?  Doesn't sound wise.  From a moral standpoint, am I not supposed to help a Quaker being mugged?  Who are you?  I mean, that's specifically why, morally, people want to fight wars.  To defend the helpless and the powerless.”

What a tangle of equivocal double-talk. Germany is not “powerless” (yet), “Quaker”, or being “mugged”. It is aging, materialistic, self-indulgent, and wealthy by international standards.


”Yes even the foolish.  That's what great power is supposed to come with.  Responsibility to use it.  I mean *censored*, even Spider-Man has that figured out.  He didn't need a *censored*ing philosophy degree.  But I guess you do need some help with that idea. I know *censored*ing Chatte Grabber doesn't understand it.  He's never fought for anything but himself in his life.  He doesn't defend people.  He wanted Germany and ROK to pay the United States for defense.  He's a *censored*ing shake-down artist.  A gangster.  I don't think I have a derangement.  I think I can see him pretty clearly.  Maybe you don't.” 

Once again, you are chasing your tail. Ask me sometime what I think of Trump personally. Great powers do not enable sloth, they inspire greatness in other nations. I think Washington, and Jefferson, were excessively isolationist. John Quincy Adams struck an acceptable balance when he advised Congress on July 4, 1821, saying America “… goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.”

Her “own” in this context I read to mean those nations that value their independence, freedom, and put their lives where their mouths are. Ukraine meets that standard.

 ”No, but I'd point out that the United States has been pointing that out to Germany long before Lord T-Rex came on the scene.”

… Hardly in the way that Trump pointed it out to Angela.

No, but he is always a POS.  Because you can't change that, no matter how right or wrong you are.  I know some real idiots that are still better men than him

I know some very bright people that are worse than Trump regarding American interests, lots of them in fact. It is odd how that works. The important question is always; what is in the national interest, and Trump seems to have believed that the nation actually belonged to him during his presidency, and behaved to reflect that belief. I much prefer that to the dreams of a self-appointed apologist championing the politics of his Kenyan father.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2022, 10:28:21 PM by noel c. »

Tom

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #158 on: October 13, 2022, 10:36:32 PM »
Man, Trump really should have had a Kenyan father.

noel c.

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #159 on: October 13, 2022, 10:43:05 PM »
Tom,

”Man, Trump really should have had a Kenyan father.”

Coming from the man who sees the prospect of American military hegemony as reprehensible, your comment is entirely believable, and consistent.


TheDrake

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #160 on: October 13, 2022, 10:49:17 PM »
The NATO agreement sets the bar at 2% anyway, not 4%. Not everybody has to spend enough to put their boot on every other country no matter how far away.

noel c.

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #161 on: October 13, 2022, 10:56:00 PM »
Drake,

Poland raised its defense budget to 3% GDP for next year. Finland followed, raising theirs to 2.25% for 2023. The number is set by perceived threat. Trump perceived the threat a little more accurately than others, which is somewhat strange given all the democratic drivel about an alleged Trump/Putin bond.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2022, 10:58:12 PM by noel c. »

Tom

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #162 on: October 13, 2022, 11:05:00 PM »
I am amused by the idea that Trump thought Germany should be paying more because he anticipated the threat Russia posed to Europe. It's a pleasingly wacky take, although of course not one that can be taken seriously.

noel c.

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #163 on: October 13, 2022, 11:19:42 PM »
Tom,

Are you daft? Do you need an explanation for the existence of NATO? That is, by far, the most inane statement that I have read from you, and there have been some whoppers.

Tom

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #164 on: October 13, 2022, 11:29:07 PM »
I believe I understand why NATO exists. I am deeply unconvinced that Trump does.

noel c.

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #165 on: October 13, 2022, 11:30:41 PM »
Tom,

Stop digging.

cherrypoptart

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #166 on: October 14, 2022, 12:12:03 AM »
But Noel, Trump was actually trying to do his buddy Putin and the Russian people Trump loved a favor by raising NATO defense readiness. If someone is your friend, you don't want to watch them self-destruct. That's what Putin is doing right now, and the Russian people are suffering for it, are suffering permanent damage now with a mass exodus of some of their best, brightest, and most moral people who want nothing to do with the evil that Putin is perpetrating. A stronger NATO led by a stronger U.S. President would act as a better deterrent and would have saved Putin from himself. Everyone said that Biden or whatever Democrat won projecting weakness would be seen as an invitation for thugs like Putin to try something. And that's exactly what we're seeing. Obama did it so Crimea got invaded. Biden came in and Putin said to himself this guy is so weak, just look at how he got routed by the Taliban, so now let's take the whole enchilada. He didn't count on a dancer like Zelensky being a lot tougher than he looked, along with the Ukrainian people.

So having said that, I'll give Biden some credit for supporting Ukraine after the fact though of course it would have been better to have kept this whole situation contained in the first place the way Trump had it.

TheDeamon

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #167 on: October 14, 2022, 12:44:27 AM »
Aris,

”Persons used to count as 3/5th of a citizen, no, for purposes of representation?”

No, not exactly; negro “persons” counted as 3/5 of a person.

Actually, it wasn't negro's specifically, if you read the constitution honestly. You have to infer the negro part.

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Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.

"All other persons" who are not "free" or are not bound to an indefinite service term(aka slaves) and not an indian(Native American).

It could be argued that an illegal immigrant could qualify as "all other persons" except that we revised it when slavery was abolished.

So we're left with:
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Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed.

noel c.

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #168 on: October 14, 2022, 02:36:57 AM »
Cherry,

Of course, you are absolutely correct. Trump was restraining the natural impulses of his murderous, sociopathic, buddy out of genuine concern for preservation of the noble Russian kleptocracy.

Sometimes I just lose perspective.

cherrypoptart

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #169 on: October 14, 2022, 05:03:34 AM »
When you think about it, and looking at what happened next, Trump was doing the same thing with the Taliban. Kept them in check. Let them think he was being considerate all the while he was just biding time, keeping them from going on the murderous rampage that is in their nature. Same as Putin. Trump kept the animals caged and tamed. Biden is the one who let the dogs out.

DJQuag

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #170 on: October 14, 2022, 10:33:11 AM »
You are flailing here with creative accounting.

Sorry.  Math is hard, Barbie.  I won't try to explain it again. 

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Our first third-world President

Who?  Orange Messiah?  That's kinda mean.  I know his mom is from Scotland and it's a *censored*hole, with a GDP per capita about half of Mississippi's, but cumon. 

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He called them out, and you freaked.

I did huh? 

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Contrary to your angst, Germany did not respond negatively but is still lagging;

Read the story you linked.  It says Germany promised to raise it up to 2% by 2031.  Orange Messiah didn't do jack.  Pooter is the one to thank for Germany increasing it's defense spending. It's going up even higher and faster now.  Do you think Uncle Joe is the reason?  Sorry, I know math is hard but reading is fundamental.

Don't do Scotland like that. What did they ever do to you?

Grant

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #171 on: October 14, 2022, 10:46:47 AM »
Don't do Scotland like that. What did they ever do to you?

Don't look at me.  It was Noel talking about the first third-world President.  I wouldn't do Scotland dirty. 

Such rich culture.  Bagpipes.  Scotch.  James Bond.  Skag.  Golf.  Scotch.  Annie Lennox.  Scotch.  Scrooge McDuck.  Braveheart.  Trainspotting.  Nessie. 

They're basically the Appalachia of Europe. 

msquared

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #172 on: October 14, 2022, 10:51:32 AM »
Don't forget haggis.

NobleHunter

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #173 on: October 14, 2022, 12:45:41 PM »
I'm pretty sure the only reason Trump cared about European defence spending is he thought they were supposed to be paying the US that money.

Grant

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #174 on: October 14, 2022, 01:15:35 PM »
I'm pretty sure the only reason Trump cared about European defence spending is he thought they were supposed to be paying the US that money.

Like I said, he's a shake-down artist.  A gangster.  He even tweeted it this way. "Germany should be paying us more".   Said the same thing about South Korea. 

But apparently he BRILLIANTLY convinced the Bundestag to raise defense spending, over a 15 year time span, with his $HIT TALKING. Like some kind of super football coach halftime speech.  In a fantasy movie.  Such a stable genius.  Sad. 

rightleft22

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #175 on: October 14, 2022, 01:22:34 PM »
Quote
Trump was doing the same thing with the Taliban. Kept them in check. Let them think he was being considerate all the while he was just biding time, keeping them from going on the murderous rampage that is in their nature. Same as Putin. Trump kept the animals caged and tamed.

A generous analyses. I don't think that is how history will view things but not enough time has passed to get a none biases reading.

Grant

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #176 on: October 14, 2022, 01:26:31 PM »
A generous analyses.

You forget.  Stable genius.  Good looking, too. 

TheDrake

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #177 on: October 14, 2022, 02:12:46 PM »
I'm pretty sure the only reason Trump cared about European defence spending is he thought they were supposed to be paying the US that money.

Just like he thought the trade deficit meant China owed us money.

msquared

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #178 on: October 21, 2022, 03:09:58 PM »

Lloyd Perna

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #179 on: October 21, 2022, 03:38:15 PM »
Wrong.  Debt is up.  The deficit is down from last year.  While this is a good thing, it's still way worse since Biden took over.


FY       Deficit(B)     Debt Increase(B)   Deficit to GDP
2016     $585            $1,423                3.1%
2017     $665              $671                3.4%
2018     $779            $1,271                3.8%
2019     $984            $1,203                4.6%
2020     $3,132          $4,226               15.0%
2021     $2,772          $1,484               12.1%


2022 looks like $1.375 and almost all the decrease is due to the temporary COVID relief expiring.  Biden's student loan forgiveness alone is estimated to account for almost $400 billion of the deficit.

msquared

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #180 on: October 21, 2022, 04:03:05 PM »
I think you have your terms backwards.

The debt is a yearly number. The deficit is the total of the yearly debts.

So the debt was down this year as compared to last year.

And unless Biden brings the debt down to 0, conservatives will say it is all his fault.

Lloyd Perna

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #181 on: October 21, 2022, 04:15:49 PM »
Deficit is the amount spent in excess of revenue.

Debt is the total of all the prior deficits minus any repayment or other reduction of the debt.

Tom

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #182 on: October 21, 2022, 06:32:56 PM »
msquared, I'm afraid you have your terms backwards; Lloyd is right.

msquared

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Re: So, how is Uncle Joe working for you?
« Reply #183 on: October 21, 2022, 07:40:55 PM »
Yeah when I think about it I realize that now. See it is not so hard to admit when you are wrong.