Author Topic: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.  (Read 3807 times)

TheDeamon

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https://theintercept.com/2022/10/31/social-media-disinformation-dhs/

Just one of the gems:
Quote
According to a draft copy of DHS’s Quadrennial Homeland Security Review, DHS’s capstone report outlining the department’s strategy and priorities in the coming years, the department plans to target “inaccurate information” on a wide range of topics, including “the origins of the COVID-19 pandemic and the efficacy of COVID-19 vaccines, racial justice, U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan, and the nature of U.S. support to Ukraine.”

“The challenge is particularly acute in marginalized communities,” the report states, “which are often the targets of false or misleading information, such as false information on voting procedures targeting people of color.”

Wayward Son

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2022, 08:42:21 PM »
What I can never understand is why the Right demands that lies not be challenged.

Really, why do you guys love lies so much?  Why is it that anytime someone challenges your lies, you cry "Censorship!" and "You're picking on us!"  It's like you believe that freedom of speech means you have the god-given right to say whatever B.S. comes to your head and never have anyone criticize you for it.

It's like how the right to bear arms means you want to give every crazy out there an assault rifle without any checks at all.  That trying to keep arms from those who would kill you and your children with them is somehow against the Constitution.  ???

So when a government agency says they want to challenge lies and disinformation, it's suddenly "censorship."  You do recognize that a lot of what Carlson Tucker and Hannity say are out-and-out lies and disinformation, right?  You do realize that?

Or do you think this country is better served if everyone is only fed lies?  :o

TheDeamon

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2022, 03:09:08 PM »
Conservatives in the US are opposed to anyone becoming the "sole arbiter of truth" on principle.

This makes the government weighing in on matters of "truth" (outside of a court room) to be the penultimate red flag. Because there is no higher authority you can appeal to at that point.

There also is the matter of some of the things being exposed as "misinformation control" they've exercised which was fundamentally untrue on their end.

The Hunter Biden laptop story being the biggest poster child for that. But not the only instance.

msquared

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2022, 03:45:00 PM »
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Conservatives in the US are opposed to anyone becoming the "sole arbiter of truth" on principle.

Really?  I mean I guess the Bible and God are not just anyone, right?

Tom

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2022, 03:48:19 PM »
Any time someone claims that American conservatives have principles they consistently believe and/or adhere to, they are either out of touch or lyibg.

rightleft22

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2022, 04:24:36 PM »
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Conservatives in the US are opposed to anyone becoming the "sole arbiter of truth" on principle.

Their is a lot to unpack. Is it 'anyone' or government that is the concern. Yet the conservatives movement is moving away from government of the people, by the people and toward the Authoritarian type government where by definition becomes the sole arbiter of truth. Creating the very thing one fears but its ok because you agree with that truth.... for now?

The word 'government' has become a word that people use without thought. Can't trust the 'government' and what is the fist thing people do whey the overthrow the 'government' they create 'government' . Only this time for sure...

We have forgotten what it means to be in a social contract of a democracy. One of the things it means is that no one person or one group gets to have everything go their way. Another is that you respect the vote. That a argument that if I win I will respect the vote if I lose I don't because losing is proof of fraud. No other evidence is needed because that is truth.  Yeah no reason to be concerned about that bit of reasoning.


wmLambert

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2022, 06:51:10 PM »
What I can never understand is why the Right demands that lies not be challenged...

No. What everyone disapproves of is disinformation being accepted as truth, which then makes truth something to be forbidden. Why would anyone, Dem or GOP want to make honest debate illegal?

« Last Edit: November 01, 2022, 06:56:34 PM by wmLambert »

Wayward Son

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2022, 07:00:10 PM »
Because the Russian bots don't engage in honest debate, Bill.  ;)

wmLambert

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2022, 07:03:04 PM »
...We have forgotten what it means to be in a social contract of a democracy. One of the things it means is that no one person or one group gets to have everything go their way.

Our founders fought hard to keep this nation a Constitutionally-limited Republic. They hated "Mob-rule democracy" with a passion. Does it seem to anyone else that too many politicians try to use "mob-rule" to make their pet issues legitimate, even if against the Constitution?

msquared

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2022, 07:05:22 PM »
You mean like Jan 6?  You are right on the money there.

wmLambert

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2022, 07:48:59 PM »
Because the Russian bots don't engage in honest debate, Bill.  ;)

It wasn't Russian bots that paid liars to create a dossier against Trump in order to influence an election. It wasn't Russian bots who ordered social media to ignore the Laptop and the eyewitness who authenticated Joe Biden's crime family to influence an election. It wasn't Russia bots who spent millions of dollars and several years of unfounded attacks against their political opponents. It wasn't Russian bots who forced 50 intelligence experts to lie about Trump. It wasn't Russian bots who deny truth and claim it was really Russian bots.

cherrypoptart

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2022, 08:10:02 PM »
But wasn't it Russian bots who told the Saudis not to tell the truth about their oil production cuts until after the election so as to keep the American public misinformed, who colluded with a foreign power to influence an American election?

wmLambert

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2022, 08:51:13 PM »
You mean like Jan 6?  You are right on the money there.

Get it straight. Jan 6 was an opportunity for the Dems to generate issues to use politically. It was never an unconstitutional attempt to grab power - no matter what the unselect committee proclaimed. Pelosi and Schumer orchestrated it - yet Pelosi who turned down Trump's offer for national guardsmen to bolster the half-strength Capital security was never called to explain why she resisted protecting the capital - nor why security was shown on camera motioning the public into the building. BLM and Antifa locked feds in a building and set fire to it yet were never charged. Get it correct. It was pure dirty politics - nothing more.

msquared

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2022, 08:53:13 PM »
Why would they need more security if there was not going to be a mob who wanted them to stop the count?


wmLambert

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2022, 08:56:44 PM »
But wasn't it Russian bots who told the Saudis not to tell the truth about their oil production cuts until after the election so as to keep the American public misinformed, who colluded with a foreign power to influence an American election?

That is this upcoming midterm - not Jan 6 or 2020. The Saudis were at our mercy under Trump. It was Biden groveling and threats at the Royal Family that caused the cuts. It was Biden who asked them to hold off talking until after November's vote. Biden got more money from China than Russia - so you should call him a China bot, not a Russian one.

wmLambert

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2022, 08:58:40 PM »
Why would they need more security if there was not going to be a mob who wanted them to stop the count?

Why wouldn't they? Ask the right question. Why did Pelosi want a wide-open building that was easily protected?

msquared

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2022, 09:02:05 PM »
No, why would they? Congress has done the verification of the electors every 4 years with out issue. No additional security needed. Why did Trump do his rally on Jan 6? Why no on Jan 5? Or Jan 7?

Trump called the mob to DC.  He riled them up. He pointed them at the Congress. To blame Congress is like blaming some one for not having a security system when they get robbed.  That does not make it their fault.

msquared

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2022, 09:05:20 PM »
And wide open? They had fences and police all around the building. And these items were over run by the hundreds if not thousands of Trump supporters who were sent there by Trump at the rally. Your willful ignorance of what really happened that day is appalling.

So maybe one location in the Capitol, some one sympathetic to the crowd let them in. That does not mean they were given free access to all parts of the Capitol. They were not invited in. In most places they forced their way in, breaking window and doors and attacking guards.

I am still amazed at the restraint used by the Capitol Police.

Tom

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2022, 09:42:12 PM »
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Pelosi and Schumer orchestrated it
How do you think Pelosi convinced Meadows to send all those emails about how to procedurally prevent Biden's confirmation?

Crunch

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2022, 03:27:18 PM »
What I can never understand is why the Right demands that lies not be challenged.

Really, why do you guys love lies so much?  Why is it that anytime someone challenges your lies, you cry "Censorship!" and "You're picking on us!"  It's like you believe that freedom of speech means you have the god-given right to say whatever B.S. comes to your head and never have anyone criticize you for it.

It's like how the right to bear arms means you want to give every crazy out there an assault rifle without any checks at all.  That trying to keep arms from those who would kill you and your children with them is somehow against the Constitution.  ???

So when a government agency says they want to challenge lies and disinformation, it's suddenly "censorship."  You do recognize that a lot of what Carlson Tucker and Hannity say are out-and-out lies and disinformation, right?  You do realize that?

Or do you think this country is better served if everyone is only fed lies?  :o

You mean like Jussie Smollett? Cloth masks stop viruses? 2 weeks to slow the spread? Only 12 years, again, to save the planet? You demand that lies not be challenged, we can see that in pretty much any thread on this forum.

When a government agency secretly works with mass media outlets to shape a narrative, yeah, that's a problem. You think it's a good thing. You think anything that challenges your bizarre ideology should be shut down, free speech be damned.  Your lies are truths, my truths are your lies. Very Orwellian.

Wayward Son

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2022, 05:10:31 PM »

You mean [lies] like Jussie Smollett?

He tried to pull a fast one.  Fortunately he was caught.

Are you glad when right-wing liars are caught?  Or do you even acknowledge that they exist?

Quote
Cloth masks stop viruses?

Cloth masks helped slow the spread of viruses.  Ask the flu virus for the last couple of years. :)

Quote
2 weeks to slow the spread?


I think you're talking about Covid-19, right?  (It's pretty vague.)  The CDC did change it's recommendations as they learned more about the virus, but that's how science works.  They aren't gods; they aren't perfect.  They made their best recommendations, based on what they knew at the time and their best guesses.  Guesses based on science and experience, trying to err on the side of caution.  Not based on ignorance and pure conjecture.

Quote
Only 12 years, again, to save the planet?

I assume you are referring to global warming.  Your ignorance is showing again.  12 years was the estimate that some scientists made of how long it would be before CO2 levels reached a point where it would start to seriously affect the worldwide climate and make it harder to survive.  But that isn't a hard-and-fast line (unless we inadvertently passed a tipping point).  It was just a good line-in-the-sand, a goal post where we can say that we don't want to be here.

Because you know what happens after we pass that point?  Does everybody die?  Of course not.  We just now have to spend money to mitigate the effects of all that CO2, along with trying to reduce our emissions of it.  Because after we reach that goal post, if we do nothing, it keeps getting worse.  Droughts get worse; hurricanes get even more energy from the oceans; flooding gets worse; wildfires get worse.  The ocean becomes even more acidic.  There is no doubt all these things will happen, because we are already seeing them happen.  Anyone who denies this simply is not living in the real world.

Quote
You demand that lies not be challenged, we can see that in pretty much any thread on this forum.

Please, challenge lies.  But much of the time when people "challenge lies" on this forum, and elsewhere, they use lies to challenge the supposed lies.  ::)  When people don't vet what quote, when they don't ask questions and think about whether what they are saying is true, then they can see truth as lies, black as white, up as down.  If you're not based in reality, eventually you'll go off a cliff.  Which is fine, if you're the only one affected.  But when you try to drag the rest of us with you...  >:(

Quote
When a government agency secretly works with mass media outlets to shape a narrative, yeah, that's a problem. You think it's a good thing. You think anything that challenges your bizarre ideology should be shut down, free speech be damned.  Your lies are truths, my truths are your lies. Very Orwellian.

You mean like the way Fox News was working with the Trump Whitehouse to spread lies?

When the narrative doesn't fit the facts, I want to hear the facts, regardless of where they come from.  Do you?

TheDrake

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2022, 06:27:47 PM »
Quote
When a government agency secretly works with mass media outlets to shape a narrative, yeah, that's a problem. You think it's a good thing. You think anything that challenges your bizarre ideology should be shut down, free speech be damned.  Your lies are truths, my truths are your lies. Very Orwellian.

It is so secret that you know about it? The White House has been actively talking about efforts to combat misinformation. I don't see anything secretive about it.

The government combats "free speech" all the time when it is dangerous. Like people hawking herbal supplements claiming they cure diseases. You don't get to say whatever the F you want if its killing people. Yes, I think it is perfectly fine for the government to advise, not order, when it sees something dangerous and undeniably false, like "there are microchips in the vaccines".

The DHS report isn't saying, take down posts about taxes being too high.

TheDeamon

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2022, 08:20:30 PM »
Any time someone claims that American conservatives have principles they consistently believe and/or adhere to, they are either out of touch or lyibg.
I get to play "no true scottsman" on that one. Also, "conservative" and "Republican" are NOT synonyms despite it often being used that way.

Further, there are many kinds of "Conservatives" out there. Which brings us back to there is no true Scotsman. (Or socialist government it seems)

We have:
Social Conservatives
Religious Conservatives
And
Constitutional Conservatives
As well as:
Fiscal Conservatives
Foreign Policy("National Security") Conservatives

Often these respective Venn Diagrams overlap the same people, and sometimes even parties most recently that overlap happened with the Republicans.. but...

Fiscal Conservatives seem to have departed the political landscape during Bush 43, although they resurfaced briefly in 2008 in a vain hope under Obama's banner. They have pretty much been a non-factor since. (Although they did seem to offer some tepid support for Trump in 2016, but absent in 2020)

National Security Conservatives were destroyed as a cohesive constituency in 2016 and remain in disarray.

Social Conservatism has always been a moving target, but often orbits in close proximity with its close friend, Religious Conservatism as the two sides push and pull on one another. Due to Social Conservativism being largely a moving target, it is best viewed as generational in nature. As recently as the 2020 election cycle, Democrats had the Social Conservative vote, but that was likely a response to Trump and Covid19.

Religious "Conservatives" remain all in on the Republican Party and many seem to also be all in on Team Trump even now, but I am not sure of that reaching the point of "most."

Then we have those "Constitutional Conservatives" who seem to be lost in the wilderness alongside their National Security and Fiscal Conservatism counterparts. Mamy remain "effectively Republican" by sheer inertia at present because while the Republicans have turned into a clown show, the Democrats are an insane asylum run by the inmates.

Most of what Trump and company are up to is pure populism and has nothing to do with Conservatism of any stripe beyond sufficient lip service to keep the last vestiges of Reagan's "Religious Right" coalition from abandoning ship.

When I was speaking of "American Conservatives" I was aiming more at the social, fiscal, and Constitutional types than the others. America tried Theocracy at the state level in the late 18th and early 19th Century. It doesn't work, and is an open invitation for abuse so Religious Conservatives can pack sand if they can't carry the culture war. National Security should follow, not lead, so mostly the same for them.

Tom

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2022, 08:22:34 PM »
Quote
I get to play "no true scottsman" on that one.
Sure, fair enough. Let's just say "American conservatives with any power or significant influence."

TheDeamon

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2022, 08:27:01 PM »
Because the Russian bots don't engage in honest debate, Bill.  ;)

It wasn't Russian bots that paid liars to create a dossier against Trump in order to influence an election. It wasn't Russian bots who ordered social media to ignore the Laptop and the eyewitness who authenticated Joe Biden's crime family to influence an election. It wasn't Russia bots who spent millions of dollars and several years of unfounded attacks against their political opponents. It wasn't Russian bots who forced 50 intelligence experts to lie about Trump. It wasn't Russian bots who deny truth and claim it was really Russian bots.
One of the few times he actually manages to be in the correct ball park.

wmLambert

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2022, 11:02:36 PM »

You mean [lies] like Jussie Smollett?

He tried to pull a fast one.  Fortunately he was caught.
Are you glad when right-wing liars are caught?  Or do you even acknowledge that they exist?

But Right wing liars aren't "caught." They are usually unjustly accused and smeared by false innuendo. Look at all the Democrats with no issues in this election saying the GOP is for cutting SS and only cutting taxes for the rich? Not one single GOP has said that. Yet that is the most prevalent Democrat stance. Are what Biden says in his official statements mere gaffes that must be walked back, or are they just lies designed to grease his skids?


Cloth masks stop viruses?

Cloth masks helped slow the spread of viruses.  Ask the flu virus for the last couple of years. :)

Actually John Hopkins released research that said masks only concentrate the contaminates and increase the virulence.


2 weeks to slow the spread?


I think you're talking about Covid-19, right?  (It's pretty vague.)  The CDC did change it's recommendations as they learned more about the virus, but that's how science works.  They aren't gods; they aren't perfect.  They made their best recommendations, based on what they knew at the time and their best guesses.  Guesses based on science and experience, trying to err on the side of caution.  Not based on ignorance and pure conjecture.

No. Not best guesses based on science. Political leveraging to show their power - without any silly science they didn't think they needed. (Almost Fauci's exact words.) But not an apology.


Only 12 years, again, to save the planet?

I assume you are referring to global warming.  Your ignorance is showing again.  12 years was the estimate that some scientists made of how long it would be before CO2 levels reached a point where it would start to seriously affect the worldwide climate and make it harder to survive.  But that isn't a hard-and-fast line (unless we inadvertently passed a tipping point).  It was just a good line-in-the-sand, a goal post where we can say that we don't want to be here.

Because you know what happens after we pass that point?  Does everybody die?  Of course not.  We just now have to spend money to mitigate the effects of all that CO2, along with trying to reduce our emissions of it.  Because after we reach that goal post, if we do nothing, it keeps getting worse.  Droughts get worse; hurricanes get even more energy from the oceans; flooding gets worse; wildfires get worse.  The ocean becomes even more acidic.  There is no doubt all these things will happen, because we are already seeing them happen.  Anyone who denies this simply is not living in the real world.

No. Name a real scientist who says Global Warming is a serious problem. Politicians say it - and bureaucrats who make money pretending. I'm not a specialist on climate, but know enough science to know our temporary warm period is a good thing, holding nack the humanity-killing ice-age we are currently in. There are zero models that have been back-checked to prove they work. They can't even predict temperatures of the past century.


You demand that lies not be challenged, we can see that in pretty much any thread on this forum.

Please, challenge lies.  But much of the time when people "challenge lies" on this forum, and elsewhere, they use lies to challenge the supposed lies.  ::)  When people don't vet what quote, when they don't ask questions and think about whether what they are saying is true, then they can see truth as lies, black as white, up as down.  If you're not based in reality, eventually you'll go off a cliff.  Which is fine, if you're the only one affected.  But when you try to drag the rest of us with you...  >:(

You mean like the way Fox News was working with the Trump Whitehouse to spread lies?

When the narrative doesn't fit the facts, I want to hear the facts, regardless of where they come from.  Do you?

Musk has the right of it. Truth is not your version of issues. Facts are real. You are not the judge of truth, just because your politics is dependent on it.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2022, 11:07:34 PM by wmLambert »

wmLambert

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2022, 01:17:00 AM »
Any time someone claims that American conservatives have principles they consistently believe and/or adhere to, they are either out of touch or lyibg.
I get to play "no true scottsman" on that one. Also, "conservative" and "Republican" are NOT synonyms despite it often being used that way.

Further, there are many kinds of "Conservatives" out there. Which brings us back to there is no true Scotsman. (Or socialist government it seems)

We have:
Social Conservatives
Religious Conservatives
And
Constitutional Conservatives
As well as:
Fiscal Conservatives
Foreign Policy("National Security") Conservatives

Often these respective Venn Diagrams overlap the same people, and sometimes even parties most recently that overlap happened with the Republicans.. but...

Fiscal Conservatives seem to have departed the political landscape during Bush 43, although they resurfaced briefly in 2008 in a vain hope under Obama's banner. They have pretty much been a non-factor since. (Although they did seem to offer some tepid support for Trump in 2016, but absent in 2020)

National Security Conservatives were destroyed as a cohesive constituency in 2016 and remain in disarray.

Social Conservatism has always been a moving target, but often orbits in close proximity with its close friend, Religious Conservatism as the two sides push and pull on one another. Due to Social Conservativism being largely a moving target, it is best viewed as generational in nature. As recently as the 2020 election cycle, Democrats had the Social Conservative vote, but that was likely a response to Trump and Covid19.

Religious "Conservatives" remain all in on the Republican Party and many seem to also be all in on Team Trump even now, but I am not sure of that reaching the point of "most."

Then we have those "Constitutional Conservatives" who seem to be lost in the wilderness alongside their National Security and Fiscal Conservatism counterparts. Mamy remain "effectively Republican" by sheer inertia at present because while the Republicans have turned into a clown show, the Democrats are an insane asylum run by the inmates.

Most of what Trump and company are up to is pure populism and has nothing to do with Conservatism of any stripe beyond sufficient lip service to keep the last vestiges of Reagan's "Religious Right" coalition from abandoning ship.

When I was speaking of "American Conservatives" I was aiming more at the social, fiscal, and Constitutional types than the others. America tried Theocracy at the state level in the late 18th and early 19th Century. It doesn't work, and is an open invitation for abuse so Religious Conservatives can pack sand if they can't carry the culture war. National Security should follow, not lead, so mostly the same for them.

Well-reasoned post. But... You fall into the error of "simgle descriptor definitions." There isn't a single conservative anyone who is single-faceted. Almost all have all those conservative traits. And they fit them together reinforcing each other.

Mynnion

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2022, 05:42:15 AM »
Quote
Quote from: Wayward Son on November 02, 2022, 05:10:31 PM
Quote from: Crunch on November 02, 2022, 03:27:18 PM

Cloth masks stop viruses?

Cloth masks helped slow the spread of viruses.  Ask the flu virus for the last couple of years. :)

Actually John Hopkins released research that said masks only concentrate the contaminates and increase the virulence.

I have seen you make this statement before.  I was surprised to see this and have tried researching it but have not found anything.  Can you please provide a link because I am only seeing masking support from John Hopkins.  The only thing close was a line that stated that masks are not effective unless worn correctly.

Quote
Quote from: Wayward Son on November 02, 2022, 05:10:31 PM
Quote from: Crunch on November 02, 2022, 03:27:18 PM

Only 12 years, again, to save the planet?

I assume you are referring to global warming.  Your ignorance is showing again.  12 years was the estimate that some scientists made of how long it would be before CO2 levels reached a point where it would start to seriously affect the worldwide climate and make it harder to survive.  But that isn't a hard-and-fast line (unless we inadvertently passed a tipping point).  It was just a good line-in-the-sand, a goal post where we can say that we don't want to be here.

Because you know what happens after we pass that point?  Does everybody die?  Of course not.  We just now have to spend money to mitigate the effects of all that CO2, along with trying to reduce our emissions of it.  Because after we reach that goal post, if we do nothing, it keeps getting worse.  Droughts get worse; hurricanes get even more energy from the oceans; flooding gets worse; wildfires get worse.  The ocean becomes even more acidic.  There is no doubt all these things will happen, because we are already seeing them happen.  Anyone who denies this simply is not living in the real world.

No. Name a real scientist who says Global Warming is a serious problem. Politicians say it - and bureaucrats who make money pretending. I'm not a specialist on climate, but know enough science to know our temporary warm period is a good thing, holding nack the humanity-killing ice-age we are currently in. There are zero models that have been back-checked to prove they work. They can't even predict temperatures of the past century.

Are any climate scientists household names?  Probably not.  However a quick Google search can find huge lists of PHDs from around the world who are concerned about the effect. It is telling that by the late 70's Big Oil was planning on climate change mitigation for their facilities at the same time they were spending millions on denial campaigns. 

Quote from: Wayward Son on November 02, 2022, 05:10:31 PM
Quote from: Crunch on November 02, 2022, 03:27:18 PM

You demand that lies not be challenged, we can see that in pretty much any thread on this forum.

Please, challenge lies.  But much of the time when people "challenge lies" on this forum, and elsewhere, they use lies to challenge the supposed lies.  ::)  When people don't vet what quote, when they don't ask questions and think about whether what they are saying is true, then they can see truth as lies, black as white, up as down.  If you're not based in reality, eventually you'll go off a cliff.  Which is fine, if you're the only one affected.  But when you try to drag the rest of us with you...  >:(

You mean like the way Fox News was working with the Trump Whitehouse to spread lies?

When the narrative doesn't fit the facts, I want to hear the facts, regardless of where they come from.  Do you?

Musk has the right of it. Truth is not your version of issues. Facts are real. You are not the judge of truth, just because your politics is dependent on it.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2022, 11:07:34 PM by wmLambert »

I completely agree with your statement.  The problem is that it is most of the "FACTS" you tend to use are either false or out of context. That is what happens when your information comes from an echo chamber.  Confirmational bias is real and many of those who post regularly work hard to vary their sources of information to moderate it.  I am not inferring that the Right holds a monopoly on crazy.  It exists on the left also.  The problem is that that those who used to be on the fringes of the Right have now become main stream.

jc44

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2022, 06:43:05 AM »
Quote
Quote from: Wayward Son on November 02, 2022, 05:10:31 PM
Quote from: Crunch on November 02, 2022, 03:27:18 PM

Cloth masks stop viruses?

Cloth masks helped slow the spread of viruses.  Ask the flu virus for the last couple of years. :)

Actually John Hopkins released research that said masks only concentrate the contaminates and increase the virulence.

I have seen you make this statement before.  I was surprised to see this and have tried researching it but have not found anything.  Can you please provide a link because I am only seeing masking support from John Hopkins.  The only thing close was a line that stated that masks are not effective unless worn correctly.
Here's one (after a good 10secs of searching) https://egc.yale.edu/largest-study-masks-and-covid-19-demonstrates-their-effectiveness-real-world

OK - they aren't great but they do do something.
By and large they are going to do next to nothing at stopping the wearer getting infected from pure airborne viruses, but they do help with stopping droplets escaping from an infected person. So the mask that that does you some good is the one the other person is wearing.

msquared

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2022, 08:03:58 AM »
Wm almost never posts links to support his claims. He says he saw it once years ago but complicit big tech took it down and hid it.

msquared

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2022, 08:05:59 AM »
Also Wm is parroting Sean Hannity on the No Republicans have ever wanted to get rid of SS. Except they are both wrong.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/looks-sean-hannity-caught-big-113217283.html

rightleft22

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2022, 10:50:10 AM »
Quote
I have seen you make this statement before.
Masks, spacing, washing hands, vaccines are about risk reduction not elimination. Its all about the odds and statistical analyses.
Mask are a little diff as they reduce risk you might be to others more then to yourself. Ask your self if you were in a room with 10 people one of who was contagious but their was only one mask who would you want to be wearing it?  Stand in front of a mirror and sneeze or cough, with a mask and without a mask. Note the distance and Measure the spray...The Mask did not elimnate the spray but did reduce it. You now have something to base your risk analyses on for what you will or will not do.

msquared

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2022, 11:11:59 AM »
And making a statement does not make it a fact.

Several Republicans have said that they will oppose schools putting in litter boxes for kids who identify as cats. They have said that they know of schools where this has happened. But when pressed they never come up with any school where it has happened. Just that they have been told  that it has happened. So instead of looking for the truth, they just pass along the lie and tell people it is the truth. Then these people say "Well important Person X said it was the truth so it must be true."

And so the lie becomes the truth.

NobleHunter

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2022, 11:26:16 AM »
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But Right wing liars aren't "caught."

Because these days the people they're talking to don't care if they're lying. Oh, that's not what you meant.

rightleft22

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2022, 11:32:57 AM »
Or you have Breitbart set the morning MAGA talking points obscuring the truth about such and such
Fox reports the story as a question 
Breitbart validates its story as verified because Fox reported it.
Fox validates its story because other outlets are now reporting what they said.
The story isn't about what happened but the reporting of it. The next day a new story takes its place. We assume we are will informed but have learned nothing, just what Breitbart wants

Tom

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2022, 12:22:40 PM »
"People are saying..."

msquared

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2022, 12:24:40 PM »
Famous people. Important people.  I can't tell you who they are but they are the most important, most famous people. So famous and important.

Wayward Son

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2022, 01:18:53 PM »
Quote
Name a real scientist who says Global Warming is a serious problem.

How about:

Syukuro Manabe, Ph.D. in geophysics from the University of Tokyo
Susan Solomon, Ph.D. in chemistry from the University of California, Berkeley
James E. Hansen, Ph.D. in physics from the University of Iowa
Phil D. Jones, Ph.D. in hydrology from the Department of Civil Engineering at the University of Newcastle upon Tyne
Veerabhadran Ramanathan, h.D. in planetary atmospheres (1974) from Stony Brook University, SUNY

Those are only the "5 most influential scientists," according to the article.  You want more?

Quote
97% of the scientists surveyed agreed that global temperatures had increased during the past 100 years; 84% said they personally believed human-induced warming was occurring, and 74% agreed that "currently available scientific evidence" substantiated its occurrence.

There's bound to be at least one scientist in that group. :)

Admittedly, from the same article:

Quote
Catastrophic effects in 50–100 years would likely be observed according to 41%, while 44% thought the effects would be moderate and about 13 percent saw relatively little danger. 5% said they thought human activity did not contribute to greenhouse warming.

So only 41% of scientists (of "489 randomly selected members of either the American Meteorological Society or the American Geophysical Union for the Statistical Assessment Service (STATS) at George Mason University") believed there would be catastrophic effects from global warming.  But that was back in 2007; two decades of warming and fires and droughts and intense hurricanes may have changed some of their minds. :)

A recent (Sept 2021) survey of the authors of latest IPCC found that 88% of those scientists thought global warming constitutes a "crisis," and 66% believed they would see the catastrophic effects sometime in their lifetime.

Again, there is bound to be at least one real scientist in that group of scientists. :)

So, yes, there are real scientists who strongly believe global warming will lead to catastrophic results, even in our lifetime. 

I trust I put that bugaboo to bed. :)

msquared

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2022, 01:26:08 PM »
But he has one scientist who does not believe it. Now the fact that this scientist studies some un related field does not matter. He is a SCIENTIST.

rightleft22

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2022, 02:55:01 PM »
You can't win
you want something to be true 1 truth of 99 lies trumps the 99 truth unless its something you don't want to be true then 1 lie trumps 99 truths.
Win win until the reasoning turns against the individual.

Tom

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2022, 03:11:58 PM »
What Karl Rove realized about the news cycle a couple decades ago is that it's not possible to communicate perspective through anecdotes. As long as you have one guy on each side who does something, even if there are actually six thousand guys doing something on one side and still just the one guy on the other side doing it, both anecdotes will get reported with equal weight. This has been absolutely essential to Republican public relations strategies ever since.

cherrypoptart

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2022, 03:14:10 PM »
The big problem though is that the arbiter of truth has very often been caught lying himself. Biden is known for being a constant habitual liar, both big and small. Even if you believe that Trump was a liar, surely there can be no doubt that Biden is one too.

If you want to be the Truth Arbiter, it doesn't help when everyone knows, even your supporters know whether they want to admit it or not, that you are a Liar, Big Time. So who watches the watchers? If the Biden administration gets to decide you can't see something because it's not true, who gets to decide that Biden also gets censored and canceled for his lies?

Politifact has lie after lie after lie from this guy.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/list/?category=&ruling=false&speaker=joe-biden

Tom

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2022, 03:24:51 PM »
So I am generally opposed to having the government enforce "Truth" for all kinds of reasons, as it's ripe for exactly the kind of abuse we're worried about. That said, I don't think that the argument "Biden lied a lot, too," works here, because Trump lied nearly a full order of magnitude more than most executive-branch politicians, something on the order of one lie per hour in office. A better defense is "eventually someone like Trump will again control the government, and you don't want HIM deciding what official Truths are."

Fenring

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2022, 03:29:56 PM »
A better defense is "eventually someone like Trump will again control the government, and you don't want HIM deciding what official Truths are."

An even better defense would be that the problem usually comes from incremental dilution of standards, rather than things going from pristine to despotic on the watch of one bad leader. You don't want even 'good guys' swaying the needle in the wrong direction, not because maybe one day a bad guy will get control, but because even in the absence of a bad guy things will eventually get bad.

rightleft22

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2022, 03:34:33 PM »
The big problem though is that the arbiter of truth has very often been caught lying himself. Biden is known for being a constant habitual liar, both big and small. Even if you believe that Trump was a liar, surely there can be no doubt that Biden is one too.

If you want to be the Truth Arbiter, it doesn't help when everyone knows, even your supporters know whether they want to admit it or not, that you are a Liar, Big Time. So who watches the watchers? If the Biden administration gets to decide you can't see something because it's not true, who gets to decide that Biden also gets censored and canceled for his lies?

Politifact has lie after lie after lie from this guy.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/list/?category=&ruling=false&speaker=joe-biden

Its called discernment and step one is being honest with yourself.

In the above quote you make the claim that Biden is a habitual liar big time. Ok list the lies and we can go from their. Then you word your comment on Trump with a 'even if you believe he is a Lier' suggesting a open mind.
Time and again on this very forum Trumps statements have been proven to be les then truthful  but you don't see it that way. Often you refuse to even look. You are the watcher that watches and decides. Biden lies, big time, therefor no reason to hold you guy accountable for his lies or even look to closely at them. 

Your playing a game where you make all the rules without taking the first step. Winning trumps truth and morals until you win so much everyone loses.

Mynnion

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2022, 03:49:49 PM »
Quote
The big problem though is that the arbiter of truth has very often been caught lying himself. Biden is known for being a constant habitual liar, both big and small. Even if you believe that Trump was a liar, surely there can be no doubt that Biden is one too.

If you want to be the Truth Arbiter, it doesn't help when everyone knows, even your supporters know whether they want to admit it or not, that you are a Liar, Big Time. So who watches the watchers? If the Biden administration gets to decide you can't see something because it's not true, who gets to decide that Biden also gets censored and canceled for his lies?

Politifact has lie after lie after lie from this guy.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/list/?category=&ruling=false&speaker=joe-biden

Since you have decided to use Politifact as your source did you run the same query on Trump?  How many show up for him?  Take it a step further.  How many truths show up for both?  I am guessing that the number of Biden's lies will pale in comparison but maybe that's my bias.

I have issues with liars in general no matter what party they are from.  Unfortunately there seem to be very few who currently represent us who demonstrate honesty and we the people continue to promote the worst choices.

yossarian22c

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2022, 04:09:22 PM »
The big problem though is that the arbiter of truth has very often been caught lying himself. Biden is known for being a constant habitual liar, both big and small. Even if you believe that Trump was a liar, surely there can be no doubt that Biden is one too.

If you want to be the Truth Arbiter, it doesn't help when everyone knows, even your supporters know whether they want to admit it or not, that you are a Liar, Big Time. So who watches the watchers? If the Biden administration gets to decide you can't see something because it's not true, who gets to decide that Biden also gets censored and canceled for his lies?

Politifact has lie after lie after lie from this guy.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/list/?category=&ruling=false&speaker=joe-biden

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/joe-biden/
https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

By those percentages (counting half true as true) Trump lies over twice a much as a percentage as Biden.
By raw count 103 lies for Biden and 715 lies for Trump.

LetterRip

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2022, 04:46:55 PM »
I don't like using politifact that way, because the 'lie' frequency is of the statements investigated by politifact and based on politifacts interpretation.

They tend to skew in what they investigate, and how lenient they are interpretation.  They also treat trivialities as similar in importance to things with serious policy implications.

yossarian22c

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2022, 05:46:12 PM »
I don't like using politifact that way, because the 'lie' frequency is of the statements investigated by politifact and based on politifacts interpretation.

They tend to skew in what they investigate, and how lenient they are interpretation.  They also treat trivialities as similar in importance to things with serious policy implications.

Agree it’s a pretty lazy analysis. But was just using Cherry’s source to show Trump was worse by that metric.

cherrypoptart

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Re: US Government Censorship program on social media being unearthed.
« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2022, 07:49:34 PM »
Obviously I'm biased but I think Biden is a lot worse of a liar than Trump.

And a lot of the so called lies by Trump, as Crunch pointed out, actually weren't lies at all. Many of them were the media or others lying about Trump lying. I've had personal conversations with people who think Trump told everyone to drink bleach to cure Covid. I had to show them the internet to prove he never said that. Of course they still didn't care.

Here's an example of one of Trump's lies from the list at the New York Times.

FEB. 24 “ICE came and endorsed me.” (Only its union did.)

They're counting that as a lie? That's not even a stretch. That's the Times lying about Trump lying. I'll even give them a bunch of their other ones but many of those are just Trump speaking extemporaneously.

JAN. 23 “Between 3 million and 5 million illegal votes caused me to lose the popular vote.” (There's no evidence of illegal voting.)

This is pedantic on my part but we haven't seen any evidence of massive voter fraud, however, to say that there was no evidence of illegal voting (at all) is the Times technically lying in their assertion of Trump lying.

MARCH 4 “Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my ‘wires tapped’ in Trump Tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is McCarthyism!” (There's no evidence of a wiretap.)

Correct me if I'm wrong but they had recordings of phone calls with Trump's people. I just looked through the details of it and even now it's still shady with not all the details available but it boils down to Trump's people were having their phone calls recorded by our government. It's alleged by our government that, "if" it happened, most of it was so called "incidental" intercepts. There's also no proof Obama himself was involved. But when the government has recordings of the phone calls of Trump people and maybe even Trump himself (still to this day as far as I can see there is no confirmation on whether that did or did not happen, incidentally or accidentally or whatever), for the Times to say that there is no evidence of a wiretap seems like that's a lie in and of itself.

So that's one big difference between Trump's "lies" and Biden's.

At least some of Trump's so called lies are actually lies by the media about Trump.

Another big one that I heard repeated often including on NPR was this one by Tim Kaine, the VP candidate for the Democrats.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/aug/08/tim-kaine/tim-kaine-falsely-says-trump-said-all-mexicans-are/

"The thing that amazes me is the depth of his trash talking with Latinos, saying all Mexicans are rapists and going after Latino immigrants," Kaine said.

------------------------------------------------

Trump may seem to have more lies because the media made up so many lies about him. Biden gets his lies hidden by the media. But the mainstream media doesn't need to lie about Biden's lies because he does plenty enough lying on his own. And his often have no context or point of perception about them; they're just total whoppers.