Author Topic: Remember the good old days?  (Read 14707 times)

TheDrake

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Remember the good old days?
« on: September 21, 2016, 11:06:57 AM »
Since I am getting older, I am warming up my ability to proclaim how much better things used to be, and how the world is going to crap. No age restriction, everyone can participate with their own.


Remember the good old days when cops just beat people with nightsticks for refusing to comply with a verbal order?

Remember the good old days when Ronald Reagan was too conservative?

Remember the good old days when schools had no accountability and operated autonomously?

scifibum

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2016, 12:21:22 PM »
Remember the good old days when you had to open a book to learn something?

Wayward Son

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2016, 12:57:19 PM »
Ah, yes, the good old days.

When getting beat up at school was de rigueur (especially by someone of another race).*

When not having a tight bottom meant that you were gay.

When whatever sex you were born with was the sex you had to live with, whether you liked it or not.

Ah, what ever happened to those days, when men were real men, women were real women, and little French poodles with poofy haircuts were real little French poodles with poofy haircuts.** :)

*I'm still amazed that my son was never really punched-out during his whole 12 years in school.  Perhaps times are a-changing...

**To paraphrase Doug Adams.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2016, 03:50:36 PM »
Remember the good old days when men could wear really comfortable but very short shorts like you can see in Three's Company and Magnum P.I. reruns? Now men's shorts are required to come down to just above the knees, like our modern day version of a burqa.

Fenring

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2016, 03:54:22 PM »
Remember the good old days when men could wear really comfortable but very short shorts like you can see in Three's Company and Magnum P.I. reruns? Now men's shorts are required to come down to just above the knees, like our modern day version of a burqa.

Man, you can keep your 'good old days.'

cherrypoptart

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2016, 04:58:37 PM »
lol.

Okay, how about P&P D&D?

Now everything's got to be a video game and MMORPGs with these kids...

JoshuaD

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2016, 08:15:11 PM »
I've been playing D&D by forum post for over 10 years now, and it is fabulous. 

Fenring

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2016, 10:08:05 PM »
I still play D&D/Pathfinder with a p&p group around a table. Although our last campaign broke our wills and we're on break...

JoshuaD

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2016, 01:28:47 AM »
If you ever build a 3.5 bard, here's something I made that might help: New Bard's Handbook

/shameless plug

Fenring

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2016, 01:49:57 AM »
If you ever build a 3.5 bard, here's something I made that might help: New Bard's Handbook

/shameless plug

My friend is the bard fan. I seem to have a thing for monks. Nothing like grappling a will-o-wisp...

Seriati

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2016, 10:06:51 AM »
Drake, are you intending these to be fond memories, snarky ones or poorly veiled attacks?  I see you've got all three so far, just curious which you are actually looking for.

And as to you heretics, anything past 1.5 on AD&D is just evil.  It went from a system where it wasn't always fair but was focused on the role playing to a video game light system focused on min/maxing and power.

Fenring

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2016, 10:18:00 AM »
And as to you heretics, anything past 1.5 on AD&D is just evil.  It went from a system where it wasn't always fair but was focused on the role playing to a video game light system focused on min/maxing and power.

Hey man, hate the DM, not the system. But fwiw my first loyalty is to White Wolf. And also, the monks sucked in AD&D :p

Seriati

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2016, 10:26:07 AM »
White Wolf was too clever for its own good, imo, Vampire and Werewolf were each awesome in their own way and mostly held together, it started to get really messy with the barely playable Mage, and don't get me started on Wraith and Changeling.  And the mechanics they used to try to integrate the systems - which should have been easy - were so messy.

Given that part of the philosophy of the monk class is enduring a life of absolute mental and physical commitment in pursuit of some form of enlightenment, it shouldn't bother you that they "sucked" until they got there.  Honestly, in a world of high magic physical fighters of any sort should be overshadowed to a great extent.

Fenring

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2016, 10:33:22 AM »
Honestly, in a world of high magic physical fighters of any sort should be overshadowed to a great extent.

Don't forget that the distinction between 'magical' and 'physical' isn't clear-cut in D&D. Any character at lvl 20, for instance, is approaching demi-god status, and an ultra-high lvl character can literally ascend to become a god, hence why the gods forbid characters above a certain level. Basically anyone even at lvl 2 is already on the 'divine track', since even that is basically superhuman by realistic standards.

msquared

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2016, 10:57:29 AM »
Paranoia was the game to play.

Seriati

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2016, 11:07:47 AM »
Don't forget that the distinction between 'magical' and 'physical' isn't clear-cut in D&D. Any character at lvl 20, for instance, is approaching demi-god status, and an ultra-high lvl character can literally ascend to become a god, hence why the gods forbid characters above a certain level. Basically anyone even at lvl 2 is already on the 'divine track', since even that is basically superhuman by realistic standards.

You do remember, I specifically called you a heathen for giving credence to anything past 1.5.  Accordingly, there's no such thing as a "level 20" limit that can be validly argued, nor any risk of god-hood being accidentally granted to anyone, nor any such thing as gods forbidding advancement past that point.

Always wanted to play Paranoia unfortunately, the closest we ever got was almost getting set up for a game.

D.W.

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2016, 11:41:53 AM »
I caved and converted to 5.0 in order to catch drop in games in D&D Adventurer's League when my regular 3.5 group became so intermittent as to be pronounced dead by any but a necromancer.

NobleHunter

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2016, 11:59:10 AM »
White Wolf was too clever for its own good, imo, Vampire and Werewolf were each awesome in their own way and mostly held together, it started to get really messy with the barely playable Mage, and don't get me started on Wraith and Changeling.  And the mechanics they used to try to integrate the systems - which should have been easy - were so messy.
oWoD, nWoD, or noWoD (or whatever Onyx Path is doing).  We did best with Changeling: The Lost but have been trying to get a 5th ed D&D campaign going. So I guess, we're heretical 5 or 6 times over? That would put us somewhere around heretical LDS level of bug*censored* (I've noticed as heresies branch off, they get progressively weirder).

I found monks to be underwhelming in the re-release of Baldur's Gate. I expected them to be more awesome.

Fenring

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2016, 12:20:07 PM »
You do remember, I specifically called you a heathen for giving credence to anything past 1.5.  Accordingly, there's no such thing as a "level 20" limit that can be validly argued, nor any risk of god-hood being accidentally granted to anyone, nor any such thing as gods forbidding advancement past that point.

Heh. Well the 'lvl limit' wasn't an in-game rule but rather was a piece of lore regarding how the gods protect their domain from newcomers, and iirc it was from AD&D. You may have played Baldur's Gate II/Throne of Bhaal, which I believe was AD&D 1.5, and in that setting mortal ascension to godhood was actually part of the main narrative. Even in the in-game lore in Baldur's Gate (hey, didn't you also read all the books in game you came across?) mentions the origins of the god Bhaal as being one of a trio (I think) of mortals who ascended to become gods.

Seriati

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2016, 12:40:37 PM »
Now you're going to cite to actual video games?  I have no dispute that later editions of the game make for better video game rules, they themselves are simply simplified video game mechanics. 

An ascension campaign could be truly epic, but it's the video game mentality (and the idea that PC's have to be "balanced" that springs from it) that makes it a necessity that you have rules to deal with it.  A competent DM will either make it irrelevant, impossible or actually attainable in whatever way makes the story better.

Can't imagine doing "best" with any part of Changeling, but I skipped all the supplements for it.  We did best with Vampire, though it had the worst tendency of any game I've ever seen to devolve into LARPing.

We had a lot of fun with SLA Industries and even with Amber Diceless RPG.


Fenring

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2016, 12:59:21 PM »
Now you're going to cite to actual video games?  I have no dispute that later editions of the game make for better video game rules, they themselves are simply simplified video game mechanics.

Not really sure what your dispute is. It's not like the Baldur's Gate series was fan fiction or something. It was a canon story just like any other D&D material that was released in print, and it used characters and settings from other source material. 

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An ascension campaign could be truly epic, but it's the video game mentality (and the idea that PC's have to be "balanced" that springs from it) that makes it a necessity that you have rules to deal with it.  A competent DM will either make it irrelevant, impossible or actually attainable in whatever way makes the story better.

Some playgroups do the occasional epic-level campaign, and indeed the DM does have to see to it that they're balanced; but that's a consideration for any kind of campaign where balance can even shift significantly just by adding one or two more PC's, no less by having a high-level adventure. I'm just not quite sure what 'video game mentality' has to do with it. To me the video games deviate from p&p campaigns more in the role playing and narrative qualities than the mechanics. In a video game you'll somehow end up being the savior of the whole world, or a super VIP that the 'villain' is opposing. In p&p you tend to just be another adventuring group, which has more to do with the fact that in single-player RPG's it's an ego trip much more so than when playing with a playgroup which is more about working with others.

Seriati

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2016, 01:11:35 PM »
Not really sure what your dispute is. It's not like the Baldur's Gate series was fan fiction or something. It was a canon story just like any other D&D material that was released in print, and it used characters and settings from other source material.

I'm objecting because a video game, even one based on an RPG, is a video game not a role playing game.  All the video D&D games are excessively focused on combat, and have to include bizarre mechanics and assumptions just to be functional.  The option to role play inside their context is strictly limited.

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Some playgroups do the occasional epic-level campaign, and indeed the DM does have to see to it that they're balanced;...

Why do you think they have to be balanced?  That's a video game concept that's only vital in pvp and, to the extent it ruins enjoyment, pve.  The goal of an RPG is to be fun, not to be balanced.

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In a video game you'll somehow end up being the savior of the whole world, or a super VIP that the 'villain' is opposing. In p&p you tend to just be another adventuring group, which has more to do with the fact that in single-player RPG's it's an ego trip much more so than when playing with a playgroup which is more about working with others.

Those dramatic choices of the video game designers nothing else.  You can always play the original Pools of Radiance if you just want to be another adventuring group. 

My point about the difference is that multiplayer video games have to deal with player balance because in almost all cases players are competitive either directly or for resources and deeply resent unfair advantages granted to others.  Pen and Paper RPGs don't have to be balanced to be fun, you can make it so a level 1 fighter is far better than a level 1 wizard, and a level 15 wizard is far better than a level 15 fighter and it be fun for both players in all 15 levels.

Fenring

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2016, 01:16:17 PM »
Pen and Paper RPGs don't have to be balanced to be fun, you can make it so a level 1 fighter is far better than a level 1 wizard, and a level 15 wizard is far better than a level 15 fighter and it be fun for both players in all 15 levels.

Wait, you're talking about whether the classes are balanced? Ok, I thought you meant campaign balance, which is certainly of major importance for p&p. So no, the classes were never balanced properly until maybe 4th, although I'm not sure it was for lack of trying.

Seriati

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2016, 01:59:43 PM »
You'll have to be clearer on campaign balance.  Any competent DM should have put reasonable challenges in front of a party, there were certainly plenty of terms for poorly run campaigns (e.g. monty-hall), but it was totally expected that the balance titled to the game world on a gross scale and the PC's on a micro-scale.  The story telling was always about how the micro influenced the macro.  There were some truly terrible mechanics thrown in for using PCs in actual war scenarios on occasion.

Fenring

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2016, 02:50:17 PM »
You'll have to be clearer on campaign balance.

In general the weekly challenges that face a DM in terms of balance can include:

-How to properly scale the encounters with the party's strength level, taking into account that min-maxing can tilt the balance in favor of the players, but where compensating can increase the chance of random dice results causing a TPK. Maybe the Paladin min-maxed, for instance, but the Bard didn't, and if the ramped-up monster group kills the Bard right away the party may fall as a result. This is not just a week-to-week issue, but since many DM's plan encounters long in advance they often have to be retooled on the fly without undermining the narrative quality.

-How to create incentives such that the party will choose to pursue what the DM considers the main narrative. If the party is too powerful they may find ways to circumvent or even avoid the main story, which means the incentives and 'hooks' need to be balanced accordingly.

-How to assess exactly how hard the party should have to work for a success; this can range from making it easy for them to the extreme where some DM's actively want their monsters to win and enjoy seeing a TPK. One DM in my group has a trace of this latter, but still knows he must balance this desire against the group actually wanting to play his campaigns.

There are other factors as well, but these are some big areas where the DM needs a very good sense of balancing factors.

Wayward Son

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2016, 03:14:17 PM »
I remember when I had time for video games and D&D.

Now, if I can sneak in a game or two of computer solitaire, I consider myself lucky. :(

Seriati

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2016, 03:21:41 PM »
-How to properly scale the encounters with the party's strength level, taking into account that min-maxing can tilt the balance in favor of the players, but where compensating can increase the chance of random dice results causing a TPK. Maybe the Paladin min-maxed, for instance, but the Bard didn't, and if the ramped-up monster group kills the Bard right away the party may fall as a result. This is not just a week-to-week issue, but since many DM's plan encounters long in advance they often have to be retooled on the fly without undermining the narrative quality.

Min/maxing is exactly why I am criticizing the video game mechanics of later editions.  When I first played, the DM wouldn't even let you level up without playing through a quick "training montage" to explain what skills you were developing.  You couldn't take a new weapon's specialization without buying the weapon and finding someone who could teach it to you for example. Try to explain in narrative how you came to create a min/maxed character, and what that characters' motivation actually is.  Is your party's only common ground really that they are each utterly devoted to true master of a single combat technique?   Then why are they going adventuring again, wouldn't that distract them from their quest for mastery?   Shouldn't they be annoyed with being taken away from training?

Video game mechanics, modular levels and modular skills are what have imported min/maxing into pen & paper RPGs.

On the old rules, you could turn an attack by kobolds into a level appropriate challenge if you added strategic and tactical elements to it.  We used to penalize rules lawyers, with the new rules every PC is a rules lawyer.

That was one of the great things about SLA, if you had a party full of combat specialists, you could always assign them public relations missions like speaking at a school's career day (the body count on that one was insane by the way :))

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-How to create incentives such that the party will choose to pursue what the DM considers the main narrative. If the party is too powerful they may find ways to circumvent or even avoid the main story, which means the incentives and 'hooks' need to be balanced accordingly.

Well, honestly the best incentive is to make the story interesting.  I never had any objection to PC's wandering off the beaten track, don't think any campaign that I was ever involved in stuck to one story in every gaming session.

I still remember being appalled when I read a DragonLance module, where it literally said that if the PC's walked any direction but north east they would encounter a group of mobs every 1-6 turns until destroyed.  Why on Earth would anyone need that mechanic?  If its that vital the players end up where you want them to be, then where you want them to be should be on their path no matter where they actually go. 

In short though, the party could not be  too weak or too strong other than by the conscious choice of the DM under the old rules, under the new ones PC's have too much latitude to control (and manipulate) the mechanics.

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-How to assess exactly how hard the party should have to work for a success; this can range from making it easy for them to the extreme where some DM's actively want their monsters to win and enjoy seeing a TPK. One DM in my group has a trace of this latter, but still knows he must balance this desire against the group actually wanting to play his campaigns.

Again the problem with the new rules is that they encourage a DM to let the mechanics ruin game play, and they even back up the players in making arguments to that effect. 

I mean there are game systems where the players are hopelessly outclassed (like Paranoia) and those where they can literally do virtually anything they want (Amber Diceless) that can be a ton of fun and balanced.  Creating a rule system that intentionally is designed to create an unfun imbalance is criminal.

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There are other factors as well, but these are some big areas where the DM needs a very good sense of balancing factors.

A DM does need a good sense of balancing, what they shouldn't need, is to "cheat" to undo game mechanics that are in the PC's complete control.

D.W.

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2016, 03:53:03 PM »
For what it's worth, Adventurer's League (D&D 5.0 organized play) is more combat driven than not and while several modules have branching paths it is more linear.  The idea is to give a more standardized experience across players playing in various locations over a season. 

While that's far FAR from the ideal Seriati is going over, it's a good nicotine patch for those of us who can't get a proper fix.  :)

Gaoics79

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2016, 07:12:30 PM »
I am so jealous of you guys that you got to play these games at that level. I only played sporadically and couldn't find a good group.

I remember the good old days when I had time for such things.

TheDrake

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2016, 10:11:21 AM »
Drake, are you intending these to be fond memories, snarky ones or poorly veiled attacks?  I see you've got all three so far, just curious which you are actually looking for.

I was curious to see how people would answer. My personal choices were things that were bad but ironically seem less bad now. Never in my wildest imagination did I expect the thread to be conquered by D&D.

Remember the good old days when there was usenet and a concept of off-topic posts? :)

Wayward Son

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2016, 05:23:38 PM »
And I remember when you could play Dungeons and Dragons in safety. (Or maybe there never really was such a time.) :)

D.W.

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2016, 05:34:26 PM »
Yikes!  I can't believe that was a current article/clip.  I mean, I know it's the 700 club but... wow.  Still?

And the reason her husband gets upset when she mention the "strange things" is because she is talking like a crazy person he'd prefer not to have to have committed.
 :'(

Seriati

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2016, 05:54:36 PM »
My favorite is still the Michael Stackpole piece http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html on the some of the forces behind the original scare.


Seriati

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2016, 10:37:56 PM »
My favorite is still the Michael Stackpole piece http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html on the some of the forces behind the original scare.

Think I cited the wrong one, it might have been the first version, "Game Hysteria and the Truth," that was more interesting.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2016, 06:43:43 PM »
Don't forget the Tom Hanks movie "Mazes and Monsters".  :D

TheDrake

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2016, 08:05:56 AM »
Dungeons and Dragons is a leading cause of school bullying, incomplete socialization, and other foul afflictions. I highly recommend watching the documentary, Dungeon Masters

D.W.

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2016, 11:32:57 AM »
I'm not sure if TheDrake's comments were serious or a joke, but...

I don't think it's a cause of school bullying or incomplete socialization, but it definitely has some appeal to those who are bullied or are afflicted with "incomplete socialization" if my understanding of that phrase lines up with his.

I'm defiantly at the higher end of the age curve for my D&D Adventure's League group (open to the public drop in role playing sessions) and I'd say there is absolutely a trend in the younger players (early teens) towards the misfit social groups if not actual autism spectrum disorder.

Again, not sure if Drake was criticizing D&D or not, but I consider it a positive that  these kids have an activity where they can socialize with other people in a situation they feel comfortable with.  The player/character separation is enough of a social buffer that I think a lot of people gain a level of comfort and can communicate and interact with other people in a way they typically don't feel comfortable doing.

Is there a risk that someone may take things too far and become obsessive about it?  Sure.  Is it any more "unhealthy" than other hobbies?  I've never seen it and I've been gaming with people of various levels of "weirdness" for 30 years now.

Full disclaimer: it's possible my socialization is yet to reach completion.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 11:35:11 AM by D.W. »

TheDrake

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2016, 02:34:05 PM »
Heh, to clarify, yes I was mostly jesting about it being a cause, although carrying those books around (as I did) came close. Somewhat of a correlation, though.

I made one of my great friends in this world as an adult because I overheard him talking to another friend about elves and their campaign long after I was out of gaming, FWIW. :)

Greg Davidson

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2016, 09:53:09 AM »
I remember starting to play D&D in September 1975 and being a DM on and off through 1982.  I don't remember much more of it, however...

Gaoics79

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2016, 10:49:05 AM »
Dungeons and Dragons is a leading cause of school bullying, incomplete socialization, and other foul afflictions. I highly recommend watching the documentary, Dungeon Masters

I also think this educational pamphlet https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp is well worth a read.

Fenring

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2016, 07:34:53 PM »
I also think this educational pamphlet https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp is well worth a read.

The funny part is for the first half of it I was noting how good a pastiche it was on stupid claims made about D&D. It seemed like a perfect lampoon on those kinds of foolish objections. By the end I realized what it was O.o

Wayward Son

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Re: Remember the good old days?
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2016, 05:58:37 PM »
Speaking of stupid pastiches, here's a [/url=http://www.fredvanlente.com/cthulhutract/pages/]"good" one on Chick's comics.[/url]

After all, turnabout's fair play. :)