Author Topic: excessive force at Standing Rock?  (Read 6586 times)

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
excessive force at Standing Rock?
« on: November 21, 2016, 07:38:42 PM »
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/officers-douse-pipeline-protesters-in-subfreezing-weather/ar-AAkxXga

Does anyone have more comprehensive and reliable sources to explain why the Feds haven't taken over for these yokel police who seem to be using arguably lethal force?

Unofficially I am seeing pleas for whites to come support. The theory is that news would cover more if whites were being harmed. 
Let's look into this, see if it's a worthy cause. 

I hate to die for something stupid.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 09:51:07 PM by OrneryMod »

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2016, 11:06:20 PM »
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/4548566/dakota-access-pipeline-standing-rock-sioux/%3Fsource%3Ddam?client=ms-android-verizon&espv=1

Really?
No interest?

Outrage over white kooks not getting slaughtered over a bird refuge, but not a peep over the feds using lethal force and even arresting journalists covering the Sioux protesters who fear contamination of their drinking water from the pipeline?

Wayward Son

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2016, 08:35:18 PM »
Not lack of interest.  Lack of comment.

This situation sucks.  But I have no idea how to alleviate it beyond what is already being done.

Any suggestions?

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2016, 10:51:54 PM »
More publicity, for a start. More people actually knowing and talking about.

JoshuaD

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2016, 03:17:49 PM »
Been posting about this a lot on facebook. I'm not happy about it.

What does the other side of the argument look like? Who are the citizens in favor of the pipeline here? What are their best arguments?

I've mostly accepted my knee-jerk reaction on this issue (due to time limitations) but I'm interested to see if there are any legitimate points on the other side of the argument.

TheDeamon

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2016, 04:04:16 PM »
What does the other side of the argument look like? Who are the citizens in favor of the pipeline here? What are their best arguments?

The accident/spill rate for oil shipped by pipeline is much lower than ANY other alternative shipping method? (It's safer)

Transport by pipeline is also less energy intensive than ANY alternative. (So it's "greener" and cheaper)

Which is where it gets silly, they don't want the pipeline because it may leak into their groundwater. But evidently they're ok with it being transported across their reservation by Tanker Truck and/or Train Car Tanker which could get involved in an accident and spill into their groundwater anyway?

I'm indifferent on the matter, but uh, yeah. The only reasons to fight it is to 1) "Stick it to the man" 2) Fight "big oil" 3) Increase the cost of oil by making it more difficult/costly to transport.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2016, 04:09:12 PM by TheDeamon »

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2016, 04:44:13 PM »
I don't know the merits of the pipeline ecology.

My two issues are

1. the fact that this was enacted without the process required by the US treaty with the Sioux.  I believe honoring our treaties is important.

2. The Excessive force used against the protests and violation of freedom of the press.  Spraying water in sub zero weather is lethal force used at random.

TheDeamon

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2016, 06:19:19 PM »
2. The Excessive force used against the protests and violation of freedom of the press.  Spraying water in sub zero weather is lethal force used at random.

Uh, that's a new use/definition for "lethal force." All you have to do is remove the wet clothing, get into/under something dry/warm in a reasonable time frame, and you're good to go. Haven't looked at any news reports, but very good odds nobody died.

A baseball bat to the head, or gunshot wounds are much more involved.

"Lethal force" is normally considered something likely to kill someone outright. Not something that's going to be "potentially lethal" if x, y, z, and i all happen to intersect and no precautionary steps are taken. People fall into, and are pulled out of frozen lakes/rivers in sub-zero weather, and survive, with great regularity. The biggest risk factor in those cases is not getting them out of the water in time. Getting sprayed isn't even in the same ballpark as getting dunked in that kind of weather.

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2016, 08:43:15 PM »
People survive getting shot with great regularity.  People are getting hospitalized.  What are the protesters doing to warrant such force?

I am only being consistent with my position on Oregon. 

Do you disagree with my premise that is the government should honor it's laws and treaties and exercise minimal force in necessary to protect the peace in response to dissent?

TheDrake

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2016, 04:21:06 PM »
I believe that non-violent protests should be met with non-violent force as much as possible. As far as treaties go, the Treaty of Fort Laramie was violated about 150 years ago. If we were to suddenly enforce all the treaties signed in the 1800s, there would be mass chaos. When nations violate treaties, the general idea is to move to sanctions of some kind, but obviously unless the sioux can get a major world power to back them under something like the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous people, that's probably not happening.

There are other federal laws involved. It has been unclear to me personally what is in violation or not, but that's why there are courts and the Sioux have lawyers. There was clearly an abbreviated process, but I'm not sure anything would have been different otherwise. The Sioux weren't bickering about the proposed route, they wanted nothing short of the pipeline not being in their watershed. It's a long way round the Missouri river.

A UN human rights expert has made some declarations in support, however, about the use of excessive force, and I think this is the part to focus on. What do you do when people occupy private land and burn vehicles and tires? You could ignore them until they go away. That completely repudiates the rights of the property owner, but it can and has been done. Federal or municipal property, like that involved in Occupy encampments, seem a different matter.

What if I sit on your front porch in protest of your loud parties? Simple, I get taken away and charged with trespassing. If I resist, I'll get (hopefully) proportional non-lethal techniques used to subdue me. I really don't see this as much different, though I don't mean to disparage the reasons behind these protests as petty like my example.

ACLU, for instance, has talked about the excessive force of drenching protesters with water cannons. They don't make a whole lot of suggestions about the form of appropriate force. I've looked around a bit, and it is hard to find anyone who isn't suggesting either that the protesters have a right to stay there indefinitely, and those that think any force barring mowing them down with automatic weapons is a problem.

In general, I think people have a hard time separating who is right from the tactics used. One of the larger clashes involved protesters attempting to breach a police barricade. These barricades are being used, from what I can tell, as siege lines. Cutting off the camps and reservation from nearby cities, supplies and reinforcement is an aggressive and provocative act, but not violent in any traditional sense. These are common tactics used against medium to large groups and secure surrender with less bloodshed. Cut off power, water, food, reinforcements.

I don't have a great summation or conclusion. Frankly, I don't have a lot of support for either side. I think it is silly to be so distraught over one pipeline, and the irrational fear of its failure. There are far more likely things to harm a community. On the other hand, I'd like to think that police that were not so highly militarized could be less aggressive when dealing with non-violent protest and/or trespass.

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2016, 04:34:49 PM »
Thanks, Drake.  I don't have a problem with water cannons s trespassers except in cold weather, or say, knocking folks against an electric fence.  You brought up other good alternatives.

I don't think that granting the hearing required by the treaty would lead to chaos.

Ultimately for me, it's not about sympathy or who's right, but about the government operating within the law and constitution.

TheDrake

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2016, 09:16:07 AM »
It is also about operating with compassion. The liberal use of pepper spray on seated peaceful protestors in several cases would be an example of something that, while perhaps within the law, just shouldn't happen. I reserve the right to change my mind for the eco-terrorist Critical Mass (originally named Commute Clot), who are responsible for untold commuter frustration.

Wayward Son

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2016, 06:23:32 PM »
The sad part is that the oil company has guaranteed that the pipe won't leak.  Which means there is a simple solution.

Just move the pipe back to Bismark, where it was first supposed to go. 

They only moved it through the reservation because the Bismark community was worried that the pipe would leak and ruin their water.  ::)

TheDrake

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2016, 01:58:09 PM »
Just move the pipe back to Bismark, where it was first supposed to go. 

They only moved it through the reservation because the Bismark community was worried that the pipe would leak and ruin their water.  ::)

Sure, this would likely be a NIMBY issue no matter what. The Bismark people are probably just more effective at negotiating than a bunch of people shivering in tents.

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2016, 02:26:25 PM »
Just move the pipe back to Bismark, where it was first supposed to go. 

They only moved it through the reservation because the Bismark community was worried that the pipe would leak and ruin their water.  ::)

Sure, this would likely be a NIMBY issue no matter what. The Bismark people are probably just more effective at negotiating than a bunch of people shivering in tents.

The procedural violation here: the Sioux never received a formal hearing or consultation, as required by treaty and law.

Laws and rights don't just expire after 150 years.

TheDrake

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2016, 05:00:03 PM »
A transcript from NPR:

Quote
JULIE FEDORCHAK: Good morning.

MONTAGNE: You held - the North Dakota Public Service Commission held 30 hours of public hearings before the pipeline was approved. You didn't - in all these 30 hours, you didn't hear from members of the Standing Rock Sioux. But did you consult with them or attempt to get them to be part of these public hearings?

FEDORCHAK: That is true. The Standing Rock tribe did not participate in our public hearings or, quite honestly, at any point throughout our 13-month review process. Here's the situation, though, we notified the tribes. We had a personal call go out to the tribes urging them to participate, and we had a hearing 45 minutes from Cannonball.

MONTAGNE: Cannonball, the area where the protests are, right.

FEDORCHAK: Correct. And they didn't attend, nor did they proceed to provide us with any additional information after the fact about what their concerns are. Meanwhile, there's hundreds of other people who did participate in our process, so we had a lot of different issues we were working through on this pipeline throughout that 13-month process, including careful scrutiny of the river crossings, including careful examination of the cultural resources and consultation with our historic preservation officers. So we had a lot of concerns we were dealing with, among them was not concerns expressed by the Standing Rock tribe.

MONTAGNE: Do you know for sure that the tribal chairman, David Archambault, was notified of this in those 13 months?

FEDORCHAK: His office was notified, yes.


If true, then this kind of undermines the "we weren't consulted" argument, does it not? If not true, I can't easily find anyone refuting it.

Seriati

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2016, 05:32:20 PM »
If true, then this kind of undermines the "we weren't consulted" argument, does it not? If not true, I can't easily find anyone refuting it.

Quote
There's no point in acting all surprised about it.  All the planning charts and demolition orders have been on display in your local planning department in Alpha Centauri for fifty of your Earth years, so you've had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it's far too late to start making a fuss about it now.  Douglas Adams, The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

TheDrake

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2016, 07:52:11 PM »
There's no point in acting all surprised about it....

Funny, but if they actually did make the calls?

Here's a solid breakdown that makes a lot of sense. While I didn't independently verify everything, the level of detail and citations suggests it is not wildly off.

Quote
In a review of the North Dakota filings - directly relevant to the tribes complaints - we can see a picture of detailed review, extensive input and engagement with various affected parties, and detailed historical, cultural, flora and fauna and other reviews. We can see information on the MANY changes made to the route to accommodate concerns raised in input obtained from those willing to give it.

What seems missing is any significant involvement and input from the tribe during the 2 year approval process, despite dozens others with far less resources successfully petitioning to intervene, and filing affidavits to get their voices and input heard. The Standing Rock Tribe is not listed as a Petitioner to Intervene and offer an Affidavit.

source

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2016, 09:37:04 PM »
Then there should be a hearing, perhaps Congressional, and those who were contacted put in the hot seat on oath and on camera.  Settle the question of notice.

New while nix on water cannons and rubber bullets unless protesters are posing threat of substantial injury to police or innocents. 

TheDeamon

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2016, 07:29:34 AM »
Then there should be a hearing, perhaps Congressional, and those who were contacted put in the hot seat on oath and on camera.  Settle the question of notice.

The "other thing" here is the evidence that everyone else surrounding the reservation seems to have taken notice of the public hearings. Which likely included public notices in the relevant local papers as well as local press(media) coverage.

I'm inclined to think the tribe as whole had a giant freaking mental block going on the matter, so even when their leadership was contacted, they assumed that it was just "courtesy notification" of the pipeline passing nearby, not through their reservation. (Although protests about it being in their watershed, not just on the reservation calls even that into question)

I don't know what they were expecting as far as "notification" goes(but apparently more than is legally required), but I'm thinking they were operating in a bubble happy to ignore the outside world until the construction crews turned up and popped it.

Maybe they were expecting BIA to get involved in things and alert them about it? And since BIA had no reason to be involved...

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2016, 09:53:56 AM »
My reading was the pipeline doesn't pass through the reservation, but under the Missouri River upstream from the res.

TheDrake

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2016, 01:55:23 PM »
My reading was the pipeline doesn't pass through the reservation, but under the Missouri River upstream from the res.

Correct. And yeah, you still have to decide what to do with the protesters. Latest is that they will not provided emergency services for those who choose to remain in the camps. A much more passive aggression. I would also support force if they attempt to enter private land, though what form that force should take remains unclear.

The tribe on the reservation to the north of them was involved, I presume that the two tribes talk to each other, so it is hard to think that the pipeline plan was not known. It is unclear exactly when they moved the pipeline away from Bismark, that might have been the trigger for the Sioux to start caring.

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2016, 02:56:48 PM »
I say, give them a hearing.  If they were indeed noticed per law, then a judge can order them out.  There are safeguards and lawful processes to deal with folks that violate a Judge's order. 

TheDrake

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2016, 05:13:11 PM »
Hearing goes like this:

S: We don't like where your pipeline goes
P: We've done exhaustive research and this is the safest route
S: You broke our treaty in the 19th century
P: Yup
S: Water is life
P: Your intake and new water treatment plant are many miles away from the pipeline location
S: We have secret burial grounds that cannot be detected by white archeologists
P: WTF?

That's a real productive use of time.

They don't need an order to remove them, the feds have jurisdiction and say they will not be forcibly removed from that land.

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2016, 05:26:08 PM »
Clearly adult supervision is needed with rubber bullets and firehouses in the Dakota winter.


Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: excessive force at Dtanding Rock?
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2016, 05:28:25 PM »
Hearing goes like this:

S: We don't like where your pipeline goes
P: We've done exhaustive research and this is the safest route
S: You broke our treaty in the 19th century
P: Yup
S: Water is life
P: Your intake and new water treatment plant are many miles away from the pipeline location
S: We have secret burial grounds that cannot be detected by white archeologists

Hearsay about Secrets cannot be entered into evidence. Next?