Author Topic: The tide finally turns against Arab colonization, no thanks to western lefties  (Read 5968 times)

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-35515769

Berbers are finally reclaiming a place in the governance of their own lands after centuries of Arab colonization.  Sadly, to western lefties, the idea of colonization by non-European is a contradiction in terms...

AI Wessex

  • Members
    • View Profile
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-35515769

Berbers are finally reclaiming a place in the governance of their own lands after centuries of Arab colonization.  Sadly, to western lefties, the idea of colonization by non-European is a contradiction in terms...
Ah yes, those pesky western lefties.  They do get around.

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-35515769

Berbers are finally reclaiming a place in the governance of their own lands after centuries of Arab colonization.  Sadly, to western lefties, the idea of colonization by non-European is a contradiction in terms...
Ah yes, those pesky western lefties.  They do get around.

They do?  I had the opposite impression, I.e.that they have never expanded their horizons or tried to conceive how different cultures conceive of things. In "multiculturalist" constructs, "Other" cultures exist not for their own sake but solely for opposing Western narratives and points of view.

mark Twain inception said that travel is the sure cure for bigotry.  It's not as sure as it used to , but it's an excellent start.

D.W.

  • Members
    • View Profile
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-35515769

Berbers are finally reclaiming a place in the governance of their own lands after centuries of Arab colonization.  Sadly, to western lefties, the idea of colonization by non-European is a contradiction in terms...
Ah yes, those pesky western lefties.  They do get around.

They do?  I had the opposite impression, I.e.that they have never expanded their horizons or tried to conceive how different cultures conceive of things. In "multiculturalist" constructs, "Other" cultures exist not for their own sake but solely for opposing Western narratives and points of view.

mark Twain inception said that travel is the sure cure for bigotry.  It's not as sure as it used to , but it's an excellent start.

I think you are confusing western lefties with Americans in general.  It's not like their counterparts on the right are well known for their cultural enlightenment. 

Pyrtolin

  • Members
    • View Profile
Also you are confusing arguments that are mad only in the contest of US/Western behavior and improperly applying them to the behavior of other countries and cultures about which they weren't being made; taking that lack of comment on something that wasn't relevant to a specific conversation and treating that like an endorsement.

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
It's not like their counterparts on the right are well known for their cultural enlightenment.

I don't need to debunk non-existent claims about the enlightenment, open-ness, or liberality of American right-wingers, DW.  When I attack the right, it's for failing to live up to their own stated values.  Like when I point out that Reagan committed TREASON when he negotiated with Iran before becoming president.

D.W.

  • Members
    • View Profile
Ah, carry on.  I'd also rank hypocrisy a higher sin than insular-ism.  :)

Wayward Son

  • Members
    • View Profile
Sadly, to western lefties, the idea of colonization by non-European is a contradiction in terms...

Could you show an instance where Lefties consider the idea of colonization by non-Europeans a contradiction in terms?  I have yet to hear that idea.  In fact, I would think the issue of Tibetan Independence utterly disproves that.

Or are you under the impression that lack of addressing all the world's woes means that Western Lefties don't really care?

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Sadly, to western lefties, the idea of colonization by non-European is a contradiction in terms...

Could you show an instance where Lefties consider the idea of colonization by non-Europeans a contradiction in terms?  I have yet to hear that idea.  In fact, I would think the issue of Tibetan Independence utterly disproves that.

Or are you under the impression that lack of addressing all the world's woes means that Western Lefties don't really care?

Back when lefties were rel liberals, yes, some of them did address  Tibetan independence. But they did not, to my recollection, use the term colonization.

Ask Pyr if it's possible for a nonwesterner to colonize or for a nonwhite person to be racist.  Then duck and cover.


NobleHunter

  • Members
    • View Profile
I'm pretty sure the Japanese occupation of Korea has been described as colonialism.

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Well the Koreans call it colonialism, and even the Japanese call it colonialism, American lefties call it "what is Korea?"

Here, Japanese scholar insists Japanese colonists raped Korean comfort women most "moderately"


Pyrtolin

  • Members
    • View Profile
Ask Pyr if it's possible for a nonwesterner to colonize or for a nonwhite person to be racist.  Then duck and cover.
Absolutely. In any scenario whether they're the dominant power. You're taking arguments made specifically about the power structure in the US and pretending you can reapply them anywhere without reevaluating the context.

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
So are Arabs the dominant power in Northern Africa? Can we refer to their colonial power over the Berbers and the Coptics?

NobleHunter

  • Members
    • View Profile
What time frame for the Berbers and the Coptics? I think colonialism has some specific connotations that don't apply to medieval or renaissance land-based empires.

I get twitchy about using "racism" as a universal term or constant of the human experience. Modern american racism is the product of fairly specific influences and motivations. Using the same term to describe black/white relations in the US and Chinese ideas of foreign barbarians (for example) seems conducive to inferring false similarities.

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Is that why Berbers and Copts get no sympathy from the academic left when they face issues such as being punished for teaching their own language in their own land by the foreigners that rule over them?  Treated as inferiors and coolies?

Arabs are the ones who freaking introduced Europeans and Americans to the con eat of blacks as a "slave race."  Our concept of racism comes from the same place as we got our numbering system.

Why would the Koran specifically forbid the attitudes and racial casteing that we call racism if such memes did not exist among Arabs in CE 600?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 12:14:11 AM by Pete at Home »

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Went looking to source that last part re Koran, and will need to look more and ask Muslim contacts. But found this story that seems to illustrate intersectionality if I understand that correctly.  Not many happy stories about racism.

NobleHunter

  • Members
    • View Profile
Is that why Berbers and Copts get no sympathy from the academic left when they face issues such as being punished for teaching their own language in their own land by the foreigners that rule over them?  Treated as inferiors and coolies?

No, it's just that it isn't called colonialism.

Quote
Arabs are the ones who freaking introduced Europeans and Americans to the con eat of blacks as a "slave race."  Our concept of racism comes from the same place as we got our numbering system.

Our concept of racism comes from pseudo-scientific (and pseudo-theological) justifications for the slave trade. Colonial European chattel slavery is different in scope, scale, and kind from the form present in the old world. In part because they'd forgotten all the limits and mitigations from the Ancient World and essentially reinvented the practice as capitalists.

Quote
Why would the Koran specifically forbid the attitudes and racial casteing that we call racism if such memes did not exist among Arabs in CE 600?

Because xenophobia and othering is endemic to human experience but it doesn't always manifest as racism as experienced in the US.