Author Topic: Germany Is Totally Controlled by Russia  (Read 1908 times)

velcro

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Germany Is Totally Controlled by Russia
« on: July 15, 2018, 09:24:06 PM »
Had Trump pointed out, as other people have, that there are reasons to be concerned about the extent that Germany is dependent on Russian energy, I would not disagree.

But here is what President Trump said

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“Germany is totally controlled by Russia because they will be getting from 60 to 70 percent of their energy from Russia and a new pipeline. And you tell me if that’s appropriate, because I think it’s not, and I think it’s a very bad thing for NATO and I don’t think it should have happened.”

Nope. Untrue, and if it has a kernel of truth, it is lost in the complete hyperbole.

As Angela Merkel pointed out, East Germany was controlled by the Soviet Union.  That’s what total foreign control looks like. So the situation now is not even close.

And of course, the facts are wrong.  If all of their current supplies of natural gas are replaced by the pipeline, Germany will get about 60 to 70 percent of their natural gas from Russia.  Natural gas is less than 20% of their energy.  That comes out to 14% of their energy, at most. Add in coal and oil, and maybe you get to 25%.  That’s a lot smaller than 60 to 70%.

So the claim is wrong on two fronts.  Either he is ignorant or lying.

Is anyone going to claim he is right? (Let me guess...“totally controlled” doesn’t actually mean “totally controlled”.  We should have “understood that comment wasn't literal”, it was “not intended to be a factual statement”.  Uh huh.)

Is anyone going to claim that this is acceptable behavior, without an overdose of whataboutism?

Is anyone going to claim this is acceptable treatment of an ally?

velcro

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Re: Germany Is Totally Controlled by Russia
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2018, 09:45:53 PM »
Here's more:
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PRESIDENT TRUMP: No I look at them all look, EU is very difficult. I-I want to tell you. Maybe the thing that is most difficult -- don't forget both my parents were born in EU sectors okay? I mean my mother was Scotland, my father was Germany. And -- you know I love those countries. I respect the leaders of those countries. But -- in a trade sense, they've really taken advantage of us and many of those countries are in NATO and they weren't paying their bills and, you know, as an example a big problem with Germany. Because Germany made a pipeline deal with Russia. Where they're going to be paying Russia billions and billions of dollars a year for energy and I say that's not good, that's not fair. You're supposed to be fighting for someone and then that someone gives billions of dollars to the one you're, you know, guarding against, I think it's ridiculous so I let that be known also this time. I'll tell you what, there's a lot of anger at the fact that Germany is paying Russia billions of dollars. There's a lot of anger. I also think it's a very bad thing for Germany. Because it's like -- what are they waving a white flag?

both my parents were born in EU sectors okay?  Nope. His father was born in NYC, not Germany.

many of those countries are in NATO and they weren't paying their bills Nope. NATO members pay for certain NATO functions.  Everyone has paid those bills, as far as I know.  There is an informal agreement to spend 2% of GDP on defense for your own country, whether or not it benefits NATO in any way, from 2006.  No unpaid bills, nobody owes anybody anything.  This is clearly false, if you actually understand how it works.

Germany is paying Russia billions of dollars.  Nope.  German private companies are buying gas from Russia.

I should provide some context.  This is the response to the question of who the foes of the US are, and he listed them as the EU, China, and Russia.  In that order.

yossarian22c

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Re: Germany Is Totally Controlled by Russia
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2018, 01:27:46 PM »
Trump has accused Germany of being totally controlled by Russia.

However,

Trump has called for Russia to be reinstated into the G8.
Trump blamed our poor relations with Russia on "U.S. foolishness and stupidity."
Trump when asked about the Muller investigation into Russian involvement in the election: "I think the probe is a disaster for our country,"

rightleft22

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Re: Germany Is Totally Controlled by Russia
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2018, 04:45:03 PM »
In the Art of the Deal one of Trump strategies to accuse your opponent of doing the very thing your doing. Better when its pre-emptive. Its difficult to know when this strategy is deployed consciously or unconsciously. I suspect he gives himself away.

Trump is not the master of the deal but the master of miss-direction.

I wonder if a part of him is surprised he gets away with it. And as with all ‘strong men it is unlikely that he has much respect for those he fools. I would bet that at some level he despises his followers. Scary thing is that like other strong man I have no doubt he is willing to see it all burn down if only to keep his secrets.

rightleft22

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Re: Germany Is Totally Controlled by Russia
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2018, 05:12:14 PM »
Today Trump defended Russia’s right to compete in Europe’s natural gas market. Last week one of the reasons Trump accused Germany of being under Russian control was because Germany did business with Russia. Or do I have that wrong?

Crunch

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Re: Germany Is Totally Controlled by Russia
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2018, 07:08:45 PM »
Today Trump defended Russia’s right to compete in Europe’s natural gas market. Last week one of the reasons Trump accused Germany of being under Russian control was because Germany did business with Russia. Or do I have that wrong?

I didn't hear about this but, if that's accurate, what's the problem?

Russia should have the right to compete in the market. Do you disagree with that?

Germany has allowed Russia to gain significant leverage over Germany by placing a tremendous reliance on Russia for natural gas. Do you disagree with that?

Crunch

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Re: Germany Is Totally Controlled by Russia
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2018, 07:13:51 PM »
Trump has accused Germany of being totally controlled by Russia.

However,

Trump has called for Russia to be reinstated into the G8.
Why is developing better relations with Russia a bad thing?
Trump blamed our poor relations with Russia on "U.S. foolishness and stupidity."
The previous administration was, in fact, terrible at improfing relations with Russia. It turns out, being weak in front of Putin didn't work. It was foolish and stupid to even try that.

Trump when asked about the Muller investigation into Russian involvement in the election: "I think the probe is a disaster for our country,"
It has been. It's nothing more than an attempt to nullify the election. It's a hyper-partisan witch hunt. Of course it's a disaster for our country.

I'm not seeing why you just repeating the facts is really a big deal.

velcro

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Re: Germany Is Totally Controlled by Russia
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2018, 01:13:10 PM »
Developing better relations with Russia does require reinviting them to G8.  They are two separate issues.

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Why is developing better relations with Russia a bad thing?

It's not.  It's a great thing.  The minute Russia withdraws from Crimea, improves its horrendous human rights record, apologizes for meddling in our election and the Brexit vote, or admits it shot down MH17 and makes reparations, we will have a reason to improve relations.

Until then, "improving relations" is amnesty for Russia's bad behavior.

I am dumbfounded that you would think Trump's kowtowing to Putin is anything but weak.

And the "hyper-partisan witch hunt" is run by Republicans and Trump appointees.  It has dozens of indictments, including several important members of the Trump administration.  But you already know that.

Crunch, how do you feel about the OP?  You have not addressed that.

yossarian22c

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Re: Germany Is Totally Controlled by Russia
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2018, 01:22:32 PM »
https://www.npr.org/2018/07/19/630492438/washington-to-trump-dont-grant-russian-access-to-americans

So cutting deals with Putin in secret and not bothering to inform your own DNI. Or making a deal on Syria is but not informing the military commander of Syria what it is. Aside from the poor management those actions show are those indications of "acting strong" in front of Putin?

How about considering turning over American citizens and former ambassadors to Russia for questioning? Is that being strong?

How about standing next to Putin and equivocating about Russian actions during the election (there can be interference without collusion). How does that indicate strength?

If Trump was normalizing relations with Russia and we were getting something from it that would be fine. I see no indication from their talks and press conference that we are getting anything from the deal but Trump is proposing Russia's return to the G7/8 and removing Putin from the international isolation he has had following annexing Crimea. It is just like canceling military exercises with South Korea. Trump hasn't gotten anything in return for that yet. Trump keeps poking his finger in the eyes of our allies while making concessions to dictators*. Its weird.

*The one exception is the trade war with China, which I'm largely okay with based on their economic policies. I just wish Trump hadn't isolated us from the rest of the world before ramping up the pressure on China. It puts us in a much weaker place than we would have otherwise been.

Crunch

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Re: Germany Is Totally Controlled by Russia
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2018, 10:20:56 AM »
Developing better relations with Russia does require reinviting them to G8.  They are two separate issues.

Quote
Why is developing better relations with Russia a bad thing?

It's not.  It's a great thing.  The minute Russia withdraws from Crimea, improves its horrendous human rights record, apologizes for meddling in our election and the Brexit vote, or admits it shot down MH17 and makes reparations, we will have a reason to improve relations.

Until then, "improving relations" is amnesty for Russia's bad behavior.

I am dumbfounded that you would think Trump's kowtowing to Putin is anything but weak.

And the "hyper-partisan witch hunt" is run by Republicans and Trump appointees.  It has dozens of indictments, including several important members of the Trump administration.  But you already know that.

Crunch, how do you feel about the OP?  You have not addressed that.

Im dumbfounded you think it’s kowtowing, especially after Obama spent 8 years giving a prime example of how to do it.

As for the OP, it’s essentially faux outrage, just like it’s been. Trump is saying the same thing the previous administration did. Nobody got in a twist then. If there’s gonna be foaming outrage over what Trump says or does, it should at least be because he’s doing something different than what Obama did. It’s just more fake news

velcro

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Re: Germany Is Totally Controlled by Russia
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2018, 05:51:36 PM »
Crunch,

Kowtowing: act in an excessively subservient manner.

Please explain how Obama kowtowed to Russia.

Please explain what Trump is saying that is the same as the previous administration.  In particular, you might want to look at the part where Trump believed Putin over the American intelligence community.

TheDrake

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Re: Germany Is Totally Controlled by Russia
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2018, 12:21:42 PM »
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Trump is saying the same thing the previous administration did

Nothing Trump has ever said is the same thing as any previous administration, even if he might have similar policies.

In this case, there is neither. Obama helped kick Russia out of the G8 after crimea. Trump wants to invite them back in.

velcro

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Re: Germany Is Totally Controlled by Russia
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2018, 01:06:40 PM »
Obama kicked the Russians out of their compounds.  Trump wanted to let them back in.
Obama started sanctions.  Trump negotiated before he was President to loosen them, through Flynn.
Obama said Russians meddled in the election, and tried to get Republicans to agree to make that public.  Trump denies it even today.